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3rd December 2018, 06:40 PM | #1 | |||
Agave Wine Connoisseur
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The Global Obesity Epidemic
Gary Taubes at Low Carb Houston, 2018
A long presentation, but very thought provoking IMO The global obesity epidemic: Is dietary and animal fat the culprit? Evidence based on 20 years of investigative journalism.
The World Health Organization contends " The fundamental cause of obesity and overweight is energy imbalance between calories consumed and calories expended. " Ultimately, CICO is valid. However, can we continue to ignore the source of the calories, as these diseases continue to rise in spite of the diet and exercise guidelines being recommended by the mainstream medical community for the last 50 or so years? |
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4th December 2018, 02:30 AM | #2 |
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4th December 2018, 06:53 AM | #3 |
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One thing I noticed in Hawaii (a huge melting pot from both sides of the Pacific Ocean) is how fat all the Americans seemed. Admittedly, many of the islanders were pretty hefty also, even more so.
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4th December 2018, 07:10 AM | #4 |
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Eating too much, exercising too little, bad parenting, that accounts for almost all obesity worldwide.
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4th December 2018, 07:21 AM | #5 |
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Lack of gut microbiome diversity would be my guess: it is something that happens when animals live together in close proximity.
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4th December 2018, 07:39 AM | #6 |
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The writer of that article seems to fundamentally misunderstand obesity research. No obesity researcher is trying to find an alternative to "too many calories in and too few calories spent". There is consensus on that. What they're doing is work out the details of how exactly that works in individuals.
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4th December 2018, 10:10 AM | #7 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Although I won't say that certain foods (animal fat, sugar, you name it) don't play a role, IMO obesity stems largely from the fact that humans, for the most part did not evolve in an environment where food was continuously plentiful. If you're never quite sure where your next meal is coming from, there is survival value in packing on some fat when food is available. It's famine insurance.
However, when food is readily available all the time, and you just keep getting fatter, it's obviously not healthy. |
4th December 2018, 10:22 AM | #8 |
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It’s all part of a plot by the Atlantan Sharks to make humans fatter, and therefore more edible.
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4th December 2018, 10:23 AM | #9 |
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It is interesting that through most of the history of our species we had problems with not getting enough to eat, and now it is just the opposite. Cheap calories abound.
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4th December 2018, 02:25 PM | #10 |
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Calories weren't that much cheaper in the few decades prior to the 70's when the obesity and T2D numbers started to climb.
However, the 70's are when the US Government began to publish official dietary guidelines that included lowering fat, and increasing carbohydrates. Of course they gave a lot of word play to healthy fruits and vegetables, but that is not what the fast food and giant food processing companies ran with and filled up 90% of grocery store shelves with. |
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4th December 2018, 03:10 PM | #11 |
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What I find amazing is that we are not all fat or all obese, to keep pretty much the same weight all year despite changes in activity levels and fairly arbitrary intake requires some pretty good matching of appetite and basal metabolic rate. Even a few calories mismatch on a daily basis would accumulate over time.
I blame cannabis and the munchies for the obesity epidemic; when everyone smoked tobacco heavily they were thin and died early of heart attacks and lung cancer, with cannabis they grow obese and develop diabetes. (OK, not really! Please don't attack me on this.) |
4th December 2018, 03:16 PM | #12 |
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Its really easy to explain. Its easy and cheap to buy food that is high in carbs, more so than it used to be. Plus, people on average do less physical work than they used to.
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4th December 2018, 03:17 PM | #13 |
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4th December 2018, 03:23 PM | #14 |
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No one makes people ( adults ) eat what they eat, but for the most part they don't seem to question that it is often driving disease.
People trust the medical establishment to give them healthy nutrition advice, and it's not happening. Meanwhile, drug companies make billions, throwing chemicals at symptoms and not causes. All with the support of such organizations such as the American Heart Association, and the National Institute of Health. |
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5th December 2018, 07:43 AM | #15 |
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I listened to an NPR segment earlier this year about the relationship between Pacific Islander obesity and.... Turkey butts.
Pre-war, folks living in places like Samoa and others were typically of average size and quite healthy. After the war, we began exporting tons of these fatty little bits-o-turkey as the market here in the US had fallen off (they are considered “soul food” in some areas) The Pacific Islanders loved ‘em, especially deep-fried, and consume them by the ton...With the result that obesity has become a major health problem. |
5th December 2018, 08:35 AM | #16 |
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I'll take your turkey butts and raise you mutton flaps.
Eat little more than mutton flaps, or turkey butts, and get fat. Belly pork, too. I knew a man who weighed 400lbs. He once fell on his wife. He ate belly pork sourced from a butcher in Morecambe who supplied him in bulk. In bulk, get it? |
5th December 2018, 12:42 PM | #17 |
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At least in US grocery stores there is a trend, more and more processed foods with three traits, refined carbohydrates, high fat, and sugar
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5th December 2018, 01:57 PM | #18 |
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If all they ate were the turkey butts along with their traditional diet, I don't think that would be a problem.
One of many articles: This Is Why Pacific Islanders Are The Fattest People In The World
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5th December 2018, 04:19 PM | #19 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Personally I bet my life that the animal fats are the healthiest for us.
Interesting read: "The Oiling of America", by Enig and Fallon: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c92...0c38a49021.pdf |
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5th December 2018, 04:42 PM | #20 |
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That's my bet also, but all bets are off if you combine the animal fats with junk foods.
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6th December 2018, 12:03 AM | #21 |
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It is thought provoking how he continues his long-debunked, pseudo-scientific arguments.
If you look at this rebuttal (by an actual scientist) to his Good Calories, Bad Calories book from 2010 it is surprising how much applies to this speech from 2018. There's a lot going on in this sentence. Who is ignoring the source of calories in what context? Other than Taubes ignoring modern research provided by his own institution, of course. What makes you think people are following the guidelines? The CDC reports only 23% of adults are meeting the exercise guidelines. For dietary guidelines:
Quote:
Is the mainstream medical establishment guidelines at fault because people aren't following the guidelines? |
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6th December 2018, 11:44 AM | #22 |
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For me it is the carbs, who knew if you eat three times as much as you are suppose to you get obese!
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6th December 2018, 02:24 PM | #23 |
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Taubes' " Good Carlories, Bad Calories " may have some shortcomings, but the linked discussion still has a lot of insight into the obesity problem.
The fact remains that high carb diets are less satiating than high fat, and therefore are more inclined to cause one to over-eat. High carb diets also drive insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes.. When I refer to diet, I am speaking of a way of eating, rather than some un-sustainable in the long run, quick weight loss scheme. Here is an article where Taubes addresses some critics. Nutrition Heretic’ Gary Taubes on the Long Road Back From a Big, Fat Public Shaming |
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6th December 2018, 03:24 PM | #24 |
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Assumes facts not in evidence. Wait a minute, I think I've posted about these exact same claims before. It turns out, it was in response to you as well .
Key points on satiety: And on diabetes:
Quote:
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6th December 2018, 04:34 PM | #25 |
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People need to abide by the guidelines in order for them to work. I don't. See below. Really? My doctor gives me advice, asks me if I want to see a nutritionist. There is also this thing called the internet - a wealth of information available to just about anyone. Google "why are my kids fat?" Lot of truth above, yet somehow many people are not fat. The information is out there. Yes, there is a lot of added sugar and processed foods, but that is no secret. People need to take an interest in their own health. Everyone should know by now that many things at the grocery store are unhealthy. Put it this way - if your kids are fat then you are doing something wrong, it's pretty obvious. When I see parents with shopping carts full of crap food it angers me. Their fat kids are demanding Ho-Hos and Mom/Dad are fine with it. If you see that your kids are fat and you can't get them to lose weight that is entirely your fault. I believe Baron touched on that above. Ignorance is no excuse, people need to do the research for themselves. Many people read reviews and do a lot of research when buying a new TV or computer. Why not their own bodies, or their kids? Maintaining one's health should be a primary concern. Being poor isn't much of an excuse either. I am living dirt cheap right now but I'm still healthy and not fat. My Dad is fat, his siblings are fat, his parents were a bit fat. My sister is fat. I am not. It can be done. I choose to watch what I eat, and I don't eat all that great, but my doctor says I'm fine and so does my scale. People sit on their asses all day, their kids are inside on computers instead of mowing lawns, riding bikes, or - standing up. I rarely see kids outside in my town, in fact it's close to never. Nobody riding bikes, playing catch...so sad. People are lazy and love to make excuses and play the victim these days. You and your kids are fat because you choose not to address it properly and I feel that is true in 99.999% of cases. I see all kinds of studies and BS over the years, especially in this forum. Does anyone contend that it is impossible for some people to be at a healthy weight? If no then those excuses are crap. Sure some people probably have a harder time, but it is still possible to be at a healthy weight. Nobody was born to be obese. I have some medical issues too but I take care of them. It's hard work sometimes. Being healthy takes a little effort. I have the same attitude about my weight. If I start gaining weight I do something about it because I give a damn. No lip service, no denial that "but I'm eating healthy and still fat!" bullcrap. No you aren't. We are The Land Of Excuses and excuses help nobody. |
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6th December 2018, 04:36 PM | #26 |
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Look in a mirror. Are you fat? Then address it. Most people do not, or they try shortcut diets. Denial and laziness. My parents do it over and over again. "I don't eat a lot but I'm still fat!"
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7th December 2018, 06:25 AM | #27 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The genetic 'defect' for insulin resistance is in 40% of people, not everybody. Making weight a genetic variation like height. I'll lose 4" off my waist when you gain two inches of height.
Isn't it true that obesity is not a health concern if you are non-diabetic? But it is not the high serum sugar level that causes the grief, it's the high insulin level. They go hand in hand. The high insulin level acts like IGF- Insulin like growth factor. So you grow- in places like artery linings. And scar tissue builds up other places- like tendons, discs, heart valves.... And there is a direct link form that defective gene to hypertension. Seems the bad insulin receptor has an effect on the Pi3 enzyme, so you don;t make adequate Nitric Oxide to relax your arteries. Between the insulin receptor and PI3, the PPARg enzyme comes in to play. PPARg action is improved by Statin drugs. THAT is what statins actually do for people, it's a blood pressure treatment. Cholesterol levels have nothing to do with heart health, as is proven by various drugs the lowered LDL but increased the death rate. |
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7th December 2018, 06:27 AM | #28 |
Penultimate Amazing
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My personal action plan includes stop shampooing my hair in the shower. I let the shampoo run down over my body. It says right on the bottle "Adds volume and body".
I'm going to use dish soap instead. It's bottles says "Dissolves hard to remove fats". |
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7th December 2018, 08:19 AM | #29 |
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While “to many calories for our activity level” may seem like the obvious answer, the real question is why some people take in more calories than their bodies use and why it’s becoming more common. It’s probably not 1 single cause but some things that may be playing a role:
Increased availability of calories in liquid form. Calories consumed as a liquid don’t appear to satiate hunger the way they do when consumed as a solid. Increased usage of infant formula. Formula fed babies have higher rates of obesity as adults than breast fed babies. There is some speculation that bottle feeding itself may be part of this. The suggestion here is that many of our cues as to when to stop eating are developed in infancy and because breast feeding takes much more effort on the part of the infant they are less prone to eating until the bottle is empty and must learn to stop when they have had enough for their needs. The clearest link, however, is with infant formula itself. |
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7th December 2018, 10:47 AM | #30 |
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Throughout history, every species has responded to food abundance by having more offspring. Until the last 50 years, when first world humans began having fewer children.
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7th December 2018, 02:30 PM | #31 |
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Hi Skeptical Greg
I've travelled a lot, and read quite a bit. One can see how culture so dominates decisions people make. If you step off the plane in China for example, or vice-versa: travel from China to the USA... it is an average body fat difference of astonishing degree. So much that you have to laugh, that just stepping from one culture to the next is this drastic difference. Southeast Asia in general, but something else I find important too. Their television and movies don't make intelligent people out to be the class dunces and butt of jokes by the star football player. In fact, there is no football player. Instead there is a cheering line formed up by the underclassmen as the "varsity" squad rolls into the school on testing day. Businesses are closed so that there is no traffic to interfere in their rock stars getting to the math tests. In Thailand, if you want serious jail time then say someting nasty about the King. If you want the death penalty in five SE Asian countries, then do something that is perfectly legal in many US States with pot. Countries have major cultural differences, not just "shaming" over something, but stuff they are willing to execute you for. A country which has decided to eliminate the swimsuit competition in the Miss America pageant - lol. I could point to a lot of things but that one cracks me up so much. You want to roll out the porkers as your definition of beauty? Culturally, there is a lot wrong with the USA and this is surely one of them. |
7th December 2018, 02:49 PM | #32 |
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I don't have all the answers.
But that's only because I haven't been asked all the questions. We certainly don't have an ideal as a cultural archetype. No Greek statues or works of art representing perfect development of the body in our ethos. Quite the opposite. We have "diversity" crammed down our throats every day and "reverse fat-shaming" now. You cannot condescend to fat. To behavior. It's pretty easy to galvanize a nation behind an ideal. All you do is invoke some Master Race Thousand-Year World Empire vision and soon enough you got kids in boot camps, parents in the Brown Shirts and neighbors informing on one another, I mean sure there are some drawbacks too. But nobody is fat and everyone can run a mile with a pack and .50 caliber machine gun. Maybe we can find a middle ground. I tend to gravitate to extremes. |
7th December 2018, 04:46 PM | #33 |
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7th December 2018, 04:49 PM | #34 |
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Type 2 Diabetes used to be called " Adult onset Diabetes ", but now More Kids Than Ever Have Type 2 Diabetes..
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P.S. I don't suggest for a moment that any of these children are to blame. Their parents are guilty of child abuse in my opinion. |
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7th December 2018, 06:05 PM | #35 |
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7th December 2018, 06:41 PM | #36 |
Illuminator
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Oh no you don't.
We need to come down on parents who let their kids walk to school on their own. Lemonaide stands run by kids. Zoning, business license, obstructing a right of way, send 'em to juvie hall. Working is "child labor". But that is what will get you prosecuted in this country, not for making them fat. For allowing them to work and acquire skills that will pay them for a lifetime. And you don't see a lot of fat kids delivering newspapers on bikes, de-tassling corn, walking beans, bailing hay and etc. You see them wolfing down mass quantities of everything and not gaining an ounce. |
7th December 2018, 11:52 PM | #37 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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8th December 2018, 08:28 AM | #38 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The common "hydrogenated vegetable oil" is poison due to it's high trans fat content. The Euro has required none for a few years, USA will require none in 2020. "Zero Grams" could be 5%, they round down 1/2 gram per 10 gram serving to "zero grams".
I'm not sure of the Omega 3/6 ratio of animal fats, but I haven't seen an actual study showing any actual benefit in humans. Only "in vitro" or rat studies so far. And lard is the best source of Mono-unsaturated fats at 40%. So lard is actually less saturated than HVO. |
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8th December 2018, 09:41 AM | #39 |
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Here are a couple of good ones for you:
Milk and dairy products: good or bad for human health? An assessment of the totality of scientific evidence. Dairy and Cardiovascular Disease: A Review of Recent Observational Research
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Saturated vs unsaturated? Association of dietary, circulating, and supplement fatty acids with coronary risk: a systematic review and meta-analysis.
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8th December 2018, 07:33 PM | #40 |
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