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14th June 2020, 02:39 PM | #361 |
Illuminator
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I was nearly a casualty of The War On Salt. During the period of my first couple of deployments to South West Asia the Air Force medical branch was very concerned about hypertension. They not only mandated low sodium meals, but also banned use of salt tablets in the field. During the second trip it hit 122 F in the shade at Dhahran (only there aint no shade) and could be 90 degrees hotter inside the aircraft when you first open it up. You sweat gallons and wind up sodium and potassium depleted. We solved this by trading with the Brits for salt tablets. Easy trade, as we had access to fresh veggies, current British newspapers and magazines, and Scotch. I sometimes wonder if the British supply people were puzzled by the amount of salt tabs some of their units used. |
15th June 2020, 07:36 AM | #362 |
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15th June 2020, 08:12 AM | #363 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Are you accusing the journal Nature of publishing papers that appeal to magic? That’s a somewhat extraordinary claim that I think requires some extraordinary evidence.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results." Don’t consume more calories that you need hasn’t been effective in combating obesity, not because it doesn’t work but because people who are prone to obesity nearly always fall back into consuming more calories than they need. Why keep repeating a failed approach if an alternative is available? |
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15th June 2020, 11:15 AM | #364 |
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Quote:
There’s no sugar-coating it: All calories are not created equal Still, we don't need another drug that addresses symptoms rather than the cause.. |
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15th June 2020, 12:50 PM | #365 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I think that we can all agree that healthy food and exercise is the best 'cure'.
We can probably also agree that pharma companies like to sell pills. The companies that sell insulin to diabetics often aren't very keen on telling type-2 diabetics (and even more so: pre-diabetics) that exercise and proper food make them healthy again, that they don't need medicine at all. But that doesn't mean that nobody needs insulin. Type-1 diabetics - and some type-1 diabetics as well - do need insulin. It's a life-saver. I also don't think that the mitochondrial uncoupler BAM15 should replace nutritional food and exercise, but I see no reason why it shouldn't be used to help people who are morbidly obese and can't slim down in any other way. If it can do that, I see no reason to call it "another drug that addresses symptoms." (That is if it actually does work on humans and doesn't have any significant side effects, which remains to be seen.) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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15th June 2020, 01:43 PM | #366 |
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Quote:
I don't disagree that it could be used to help people who are morbidly obese, if it in fact does that without dangerous side effects. |
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15th June 2020, 08:20 PM | #367 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I didn't read the BAM link, but diabetes starts in the cells, with insulin resistance. But as long as your pancreas can put out enough insulin to overcome that resistance, you have normal sugar levels. But as you age, your pancreas gets tired of all that excess work. NOW you get diabetes.
Ibeleive that most of the effects attributed to diabete's high sugar levels are actually from the huge high insulin level- (maybe 6x? ) is caused by the insulin acting as Insulin Like Growth Factor, IGF. See <pseudo acromegaly> or <insulin resistance>. See also IRS-1 gene, Insulin Receptor Substrate #1, do I need to explain it's relationship? So yes, diabetes is a genetic disease, and a treatment inside the cells, maybe all the way into the mitochondria, has possibilities. Citrulline, an amino acid, has some effect on the inner side of the insulin receptor at the cell wall. It's not the silver bullet, but shows the science is possible. |
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16th June 2020, 06:31 AM | #368 |
Penultimate Amazing
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It’s still good advice but there is more than enough evidence to say it doesn’t work very well. This is not a question of people not knowing or not trying. Ultimately we are slaves to the chemical signals than tell us to eat, if those signals are telling us to eat and high calorie food is available we will consume. We may be able to contain that for a while, but the evidence is telling us we can’t do it forever.
Cultural changes to make high calorie food less available, or increase the effort level of obtaining calories by eating food that is more difficult to prepare and eat can help. We can fake this out a bit, but we can’t control the habits of the people around us so this would require society wide changes, It doesn’t seem to be something that works all that well on an individual basis. Exercise works until age or injury start to limit your activity level. Additional responsibilities and time constraints can also limit how exercise you can get. Once these start to kick in, most people can’t depend on it. |
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16th June 2020, 10:18 AM | #369 |
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Cultural changes, society wide changes..
It sounds like you are ruling out personal responsibility.. |
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16th June 2020, 10:57 AM | #370 |
Penultimate Amazing
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If “personal responsibility” had proved effective I’d be all for it but the fact is that telling people with weight control problems to eat less has been about as effective at dealing with obesity as telling teenagers to abstain from having sex is at preventing teen pregnancy.
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16th June 2020, 11:18 AM | #371 |
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If we had more government responsibility we would not need as much personal responsibility.
The next edition of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Dietary Guidelines will have a preliminary/comment release on July 15. Tomorrow, June 17, there is an Advisory Committee’s Draft Report Meeting. One or more Committee member(s) came forward and blew the whistle on the process ignoring science. Time to Speak up Against Dietary Guidelines that Ignore Science https://www.nutritioncoalition.us/ne...ignore-science A Low-Carb Strategy for Fighting the Pandemic’s Toll https://www.nutritioncoalition.us/ne...pandemics-toll |
16th June 2020, 12:46 PM | #372 |
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I agree that we need more government responsibility in the area of advice backed by science.
We certainly need less government involvement in promoting and subsidizing the crops that are at the heart of the problem. |
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19th June 2020, 11:40 AM | #373 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Advice backed by science: Saturated Fats and Health: A Reassessment and Proposal for Food-based Recommendations: JACC State-of -the-Art Review (Journal of the American College of Cardiology, June 2020)
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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19th June 2020, 01:11 PM | #374 |
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Great article...
One has to wonder why the science has escaped so many for so long. |
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19th June 2020, 01:21 PM | #375 |
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20th June 2020, 12:09 PM | #376 |
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When science is avoided, roundup the usual suspects: religion (Seventh-day Adventist in this case) and industry.
Belinda Fettke - 'Nutrition Science: How did we get here?' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTe-eitOJGA |
21st June 2020, 06:34 AM | #377 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Great slogan: For the Separation of Church and Plate!
It seems to be a genuine conspiracy to push carbs and demonize meat, dairy and eggs. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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27th June 2020, 05:42 PM | #378 |
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
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Let's not get carried away and go the opposite direction just because low fat didn't work.
High fat isn't a magic bullet. |
27th June 2020, 05:44 PM | #379 |
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
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I'm thinking COVID-19's death toll is so high because of global obesity.
Obesity/unfitness/bad cardiovascular systems. |
29th June 2020, 02:35 AM | #380 |
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Boris Johnson is going to put the UK "on a diet"
Quote:
Given how effective the rest of his Coronavirus policies have been, I'll go out and buy some larger trousers. I wonder if any of the bariatric surgery will be enforced ? |
29th June 2020, 07:17 AM | #381 |
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Just shows how uninformed he is.
Removing the fat in obesity, doesn't remove the underlying health issues that compromise the immune system. |
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2nd July 2020, 10:06 PM | #382 |
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean people aren't then doing what I imply. Except normally weight loss is accompanied by cardiovascular health improvement - which would mean less risk factors for coronavirus. |
3rd July 2020, 06:59 AM | #383 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The EPIC-Oxford study of vegetarianism showed no mortality advantage to the vegetarian diet. Less obviously, it showed no health advantage to less red meat or lower animal fats, and no advantage to high fiber. I wonder if enough of them were fitness buffs to also infer that here is no advantage to exercise?
One thing wrong with the hypothesis is that while there is a Big Statin & Big Ag to exaggerate the anti-animal fat claims, there is no Big Exercise to exaggerate the advantage of fitness. Or is there? Was Jack LaLanne the Ancel Keyes of the fitness industry? In the same way as the stock market is a Ponzi scheme with no Ponzi? |
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3rd July 2020, 11:23 AM | #384 |
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Yes, Coca-Cola is behind one effort:
Coke's Ineffective and Disingenuous Exercise Is Medicine Scheme https://www.crossfit.com/battles/cok...edicine-scheme CrossFit Catches ACSM In Lie And Cover-Up About Exercise Is Medicine https://www.crossfit.com/battles/cro...se-is-medicine |
3rd July 2020, 12:49 PM | #385 |
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Quote:
However, a healthy regimen that results in weight loss might not be a lot of help this time around.. That said, it's never too late to get healthy.. |
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4th July 2020, 02:08 AM | #386 |
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
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Heh, I quite like that analogy.
"Three men — Steven Blair, Gregory A. Hand, and James O. Hill — helped Coke found the GEBN in order to influence nutrition science from a pro-beverage industry position. These men maintained leadership roles with the soda-funded ACSM for decades" Benefits of hindsight? Perhaps 20-30 years ago when people were playing sport and it wasn't enough to drink just water, Coke etc became useful. Higher-energy drinks are actually quite useful so you don't pass out. Plus, do you really think anybody is stupid enough to think drinking Coke makes you thin? That's pretty uncharitable of others. |
4th July 2020, 02:29 AM | #387 |
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4th July 2020, 02:50 AM | #388 |
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Average height in Japan is unusually low, and short people tend to live longer than tall people , so maybe it's that?
Seriously, "correlation does not equal causation" is a scientific principle for a reason. Whatever the actual explanation is, it's unlikely to all be down to just one single, simple, thing like the amount of meat in the diet or height. |
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4th July 2020, 04:58 AM | #389 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Food for Thought 2020: The science and politics of nutrition - Expert talks on nutrition & health (Swiss Re Institute/BMJ, June 29-30, 2020)
Several relevant lectures: Type 2 diabetes reversal Public health response to ultra-processed food and drinks Can nutrition support healthy cognitive aging and reduce dementia risk? Vitamin and mineral supplements: Patterns of use and potential roles in health and reduction of chronic disease risk Food and mood: How do diet and nutrition affect healthy wellbeing? Population approaches to promote healthy eating: Is ensuring affordability and availability of healthy food enough? Evidence in nutrition research: when should we change our minds? |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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4th July 2020, 06:44 AM | #390 |
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4th July 2020, 02:32 PM | #391 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There are many other variables, like genes, and "feeding your genes". But, do you have data to back up that assertion? Or more exaggeration from Ancel Keyes?
And, how much longer, and what do they die from? The Veggies want to give the impression that they live forever, and have NO heart attacks, no strokes, no cancer. If the advantages were that strong, we wouldn't need studies to look at it. It would be OBVIOUS. And their data, do the Japanese include infant mortality, or just leave those short lives out of the equation? |
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13th August 2020, 04:06 PM | #392 |
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25th August 2020, 03:42 AM | #393 |
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This just in: August 2020
Saturated Fats and Health: A Reassessment and Proposal for Food-Based Recommendations
Quote:
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25th August 2020, 03:55 AM | #394 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I'll order whipped cream and low-carb chocolate sauce with my next cheese burger!
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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25th August 2020, 01:20 PM | #395 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I've always thought that the real culprit is the trans fats in Hydrogenated Veggie Oil. I believe the early studies lumped HVO in with the natural Sat Fat. So the natural fats got blamed when the culprit was actually the veggie oils. But I said "I believe" because I've never read that hypothesis elsewhere. This paper is the closest, but not the smoking gun.
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25th August 2020, 05:00 PM | #396 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No, the opposite is the problem. Same problem that we see with the Nurses study. The signal of potential effects of diet seem to be drowned out by the noise of overwhelming obesity. It's possible that above a certain body fat percentage, eating a few more carrots a week just doesn't do anything.
There's absolutely a Big Exercise. It's called the junk food sector. Been this way for at least 50 years. If there's one thing they reliably invest in, it's sports and the message that you can eat or drink as much junk food as you want, just exercise it off. Here in Canada, the big investors in kids athletics and Participaction are Coke, Tim Hortons Donuts, McDonald's, A&W, Domino's and the like. They're the funders of research-for-hire that gets press release ready results about how kids are fat because they're lazy, not because they drink too much cola or eat too many french fries. In fact, kids in the West are more active than ever. And they're more active than their thinner African counterparts, which surprises a lot of people. We all just consume too many calories, is the problem. But that kind of message isn't part of many profitable business models, so it's not getting the equivalent research and advertising funding. |
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25th August 2020, 06:57 PM | #397 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No it didn't and this is the big hole in macronutrient claims. It drives me nuts because it's like hearing that "we only use ten percent of our brain," thing. It's evidence that if something is repeated enough, people start to believe it.
The publication of nutrition guidelines had a medically trivial impact on macronutrient consumption. People were advised to reduce the amount of fat in their diet... but we didn't do this. Here's the standard list of macros: * fat * sugars & starches (metabolic carbs) * soluble and insoluble fibre (nonmetabolic carbs) * protein * alcohol Since the USDA guidelines were first introduced, we have been consistently and steadily increasing the amount of fat in our diet. And the amount of sugars and starches. And the amount of protein. And alcohol. Essentially we increased consumption of every macro except soluble and insoluble fibre, and the side story is that we increased the consumption of calories without a corresponding increase in activity and have gradually become more obese. 2,700Cal/day in 1961 vs almost 3,800Cal/day today. An extra 1,100Cal/day vs 1961. That's it, that's where the obesity is coming from metabolically, it's an Ockham's Razor situation and I'm baffled when I watch people who should know better go down the rabbit hole of carbs vs fats. For example, fats and oils intake in 1970 was about 300Cal/day. Today it's almost 600Cal/day. We are consuming twice as much fats and oils per day as 50 years ago. About the same amount of red meat, and increased our grains from 500Cal/day to about 580Cal/day. An increase in sugars of about 200Cal/day as well in the form of sweetened beverages, which includes fruit juices. So, what's my assessment of the underlying cause for this increase? The expression I keep returning to is 'obesogenic environment' This is the environment that our genes are responding to. Genes do not in and of themselves explain an increase in obesity. We have the same genetic population as our thinner parents, grandparents, and so on. Willpower also seems an unlikely candidate. It's hard to take seriously that our grandparents had more diet willpower than we do. What changed was the environment. And it's not just one factor in the environment. Previous posters have brought up several, but treated them as 'the' cause, rather than part of a cluster of compounding contributors. And as a result, there's no single solution. But there are plausible solutions. And here's the second problem: these solutions are Bad For Business, so there is an expensive and relentless misinformation campaign to direct attention away from them by blaming the population for having poor willpower or sedentary lifestyles and hoping the moral narrative will keep people's wheels turning. Food is today's version of tobacco, and it's not a coincidence. Their PR people didn't retire, they changed employers. And they learned their lessons, they're better than ever. Here's what changed:
So I advocate a few things.
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25th August 2020, 07:23 PM | #398 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Having worked in an eating disorder clinic, and being married to a psychiatrist who works with eating disorder patients, I find this very, very hard to believe.
Are you confusing it with bulimia? Refusing to eat, purging, malnutrition, range of BMIs. Bulimics consume plenty of calories. At least in the sense of it being a continuous condition. If you're saying she was on again off again then sure. Malnutrition in the acute periods. But one of the characteristics of coninuouos anorexia is weight loss. This is why there were no surprise obese people in concentration camps. Calorie restriction leads to weight loss. |
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25th August 2020, 07:35 PM | #399 |
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25th August 2020, 08:25 PM | #400 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I'd be interested to pursue that line of study as well.
In particular, a good way to control for an obvious confounding factor that formula, bottle, breast feeding may actually just tell us more about the family environment than about the baby's physiological development. Without a random assignment, we're just looking at families that self selected a way to feed their newborn, there's probably a lot of economic or parental workload factors going into that, which directly correlate with meal planning throughout the child's upbringing, not just the infant years. |
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