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Tags diet issues , dietary science , obesity

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Old 25th August 2020, 08:35 PM   #401
blutoski
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Without the hyperbole, still no.
The question that might be tested would be what extent the role of "fat shaming" plays in motivating the non obese to remain (or become) so.
Or, as a corollary, does greater social tolerance for obesity produce more obese individuals?
A bit late but just getting to this now.

The study arms included a range of weights and the attention to weight didn't seem to have any affect on any of the subjects, regardless of weight.

The question may be jumping ahead of itself - I don't think there's any evidence that there's greater social tolerance for obesity, age adjusted.

What I mean by age adjusted is that the population has aged and an increase in obesity is a natural effect. Within any birth cohort, the tolerance for obesity increases with age because the number of individuals affected increases. And as I mentioned above, people who gain weight tend to stop being critical.

But we don't find this being a causal factor, it seems to be a lagging indicator.
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Old 25th August 2020, 08:42 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
By the early 1990s!!! That was 25 years ago!!! So why haven't they been abolished yet? Why does it take forever to remove this poison from the shelves of supermarkets?
In my country, trans fats were banned in 2003:
Two words: industry lobbying.

Canada is similarly cursed. [We dragged our feet until two years ago].






Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, some of us don't eat that way at all. Bill Gates, for instance, doesn't eat that way because he is actually free from having to eat ****. He has the freedom to eat nothing but inconvenient food because inconvenient food isn't inconvenient for him.
And those of us who do eat that way don't do so because we are free. We do so because they are poor, ignorant and/or stressed out from having to work too much.
But that is exactly what makes them excellent customers for ******, poisonous 'convenient foods'.
I hesitate to use individuals as evidence for a model, though.

Oprah has been pretty open about her struggle with weight, and was especially frustrated during the decades where she was a multimillionaire with a live in personal trainer and registered dietician. The correlation with income is there, but it's weak, and we don't know the mechanism.
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Old 25th August 2020, 09:06 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Exercise works until age or injury start to limit your activity level. Additional responsibilities and time constraints can also limit how exercise you can get. Once these start to kick in, most people can’t depend on it.
I strongly advise against pitching exercise as a strategy for weight loss. The evidence is very consistent that this is a dead end.

And this is one of the things I had to change my mind about after reviewing the evidence, which was hard for somebody who is so physically active and loves to increase participation in the community. And also at the time, I was a personal fitness and strength trainer, so there was a financial conflict of interest.

I shifted to just advocating it as healthy in general, just not a weight loss tool.

And it makes sense: as we increase our fitness levels we become more efficient. I currently cycle about 3h/day and probably don't burn more than 500 Cal, because my cardio and musculature is so developed that it's as easy as sitting on the couch for people less fit. If I wanted to lose a pound a week, I'd have to be biking 6h/day, which is a ridiculous expectation for the public.

Much easier to just skip the milkshake.

A colleague of mine who does nonsurgical weight management in Toronto has this motto:

"You can't outrun your fork."

I like it. It's pithy and makes the point pretty clear.



There's an unfortunate need to reinvent the wheel with this theory, too. All the research shows it's a dead end, but that doesn't stop a dozen school boards a year from thinking they're the first people to come up with the idea that getting the kids to do more exercise will 'combat obesity' - and year after year, class after class, kid after kid, they discover it has no effect other than to increase their incidence of injury and subsequent weight gain during convalescence.
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Old 25th August 2020, 09:18 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
No it didn't and this is the big hole in macronutrient claims. .....what to hope for from education.[/list]
Sounds like your One Cause is obesity. That should be easy to prove/disprove. Wouldn't the EPIC/Oxford study be using vegetarians as non-obese while control group was normo-weight? No advantage there, and I bet the Veggies were not smokers or heavy drinkers, generally trying to "stay more healthy".

I like that study because it was not sponsored by Big Ag, or Big Pharma. As opposed to the way Big Insulin * and diabetes stuff. (two companies for the whole western world, Novo-Nordisk and Eli Lilly. )
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Old 25th August 2020, 09:34 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Let's not get carried away and go the opposite direction just because low fat didn't work.

High fat isn't a magic bullet.
We don't know if low fat would have worked, because the public didn't participate. Or, to put it another way, what didn't work was the theory that the public would follow guidelines. We know that doesn't work.



In any case, aside from the USDA food guideline myth, we do have a hundred thousand studies that seem to boil down to maybe macro ratios have an effect but there's nothing convincing that I can see. Any claim that it's proven one way or the other is the product of confirmation seeking for an idee fixe. Disconfirming evidence is either not even sought, or is rejected unjustly.

The evidence is conflicting and suspiciously obscure - resembling the dietary supplement industry's "form and function" approach (as I call it: "practice by hypothesis"), and there are no slam dunk studies. Which leads me to believe that the effect of macro ratios is either trivial or nonexistent.

The reality is that people have different backgrounds and food experiences, different palates, and different physiologies. The high level goal is to reduce calorie intake with reasonable satiety. The question is: how?

When we compare the success rates of the different diet families, we find they're just about equally abysmal. Except for one (calorie counting - Weight Watchers was very consistently the most successful program) they're all within statistical noise of each other, with something like a 9% 2 year success rate, which is the minimum timeframe I will accept for adherence investigations.

But on an *individual basis* people seem to find higher success with one diet approach than they do with others, and I felt my role was to help people find their best lifestyle with the least weight gain or most weight loss.

Some people will have great success with low carb, some with low fat, some with vegetarian, some with Mediterranean, some with calorie counting, some with vegan.

It just is what it is, theories be damned.
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Old 25th August 2020, 09:49 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Sounds like your One Cause is obesity. That should be easy to prove/disprove. Wouldn't the EPIC/Oxford study be using vegetarians as non-obese while control group was normo-weight? No advantage there, and I bet the Veggies were not smokers or heavy drinkers, generally trying to "stay more healthy".
I don't think I understood your question. One Cause of what?

Also: no, the EPIC/Oxford study would not have assumed vegetarians were non-obese, since the correlation is very weak.

Most vegetarians are simply Hindu, or sensitive to animal suffering, and BMI is quite ordinarily distributed within that population, for example.

(Note: I'm vegetarian. It's definitely not a weight loss diet. Two words: "paneer" and "korma")



Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I like that study because it was not sponsored by Big Ag, or Big Pharma. As opposed to the way Big Insulin * and diabetes stuff. (two companies for the whole western world, Novo-Nordisk and Eli Lilly. )
I do take funding sources into account, but it takes a back seat to concerns about independent peer review and replication.
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Old 25th August 2020, 11:59 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I like that study because it was not sponsored by Big Ag, or Big Pharma. As opposed to the way Big Insulin * and diabetes stuff. (two companies for the whole western world, Novo-Nordisk and Eli Lilly. )

Novo Nordisk hasn't exactly been pushing the new knowledge that type-2 diabetics can cure themselves through diet and exercise (and that pre-diabetics can avoid becoming type-2 diabetics the same way). They would rather talk about diet and exercise as a good addition to insulin.

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post

Earlier this year, Arne Astrup from Greg's study was hired by Novo Nordisk: Professor Arne Astrup to head ambitious initiative promoting healthy weight among children (Novo Nordisk Fonden, April 2, 2020).

He came from the job as Director, Department of Nutrition, Exercise and Sports, Faculty of Science, University of Copenhagen, where I admired him for receiving research money from Coca Cola while at the same time warning against sugary soft drinks. And he has also been a critic of Novo Nordisk Fonden's attempts to promote Insulin rather than diet and exercise.

He still advocates the individualized blood-sugar diet: https://www.facebook.com/Arne.V.Astrup/ See July 23, for instance.
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Old 26th August 2020, 03:30 AM   #408
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Old 26th August 2020, 06:49 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I don't think I understood your question. One Cause of what?

Also: no, the EPIC/Oxford study would not have assumed vegetarians were non-obese, since the correlation is very weak.

Most vegetarians are simply Hindu, or sensitive to animal suffering, and BMI is quite ordinarily distributed within that population, for example.

(Note: I'm vegetarian. It's definitely not a weight loss diet. Two words: "paneer" and "korma")



...
How many Hindus are in the English Vegetarian Society?

Re exercise for weight loss: Body builders and American footballers in training can burn 8,000 k/day. I did for 3 months, lost 60 lbs. NOT pedaling a bicycle or walking you pussy. Heavy physical labor. I was restoring a truck, see my avatar. Bending, stooping, lifting. Pumping jacks, pushing 1,000lb frame around, 400lb cab, 300lb axle assembles. On about 2,500k/day low carb/ meat and veggies. Back when I worked for a living I ate 7,000K/day, fast food. And my weight was stable. Ipso, I was burning those 7,000. Lean body mass, 220lbs.

They claim that Americans are exercising even more than they used to. But I doubt they take into effect the physical labor expended at work. We've lost so many manufacturing jobs, and mechanized so many, that I can't believe physical labor at work is considered in their exercise.

Last couple years I have no exercise tolerance. I just found out that one of my BP meds is to prevent increase in heart rate. It won't go faster than 60. If I need it to, I just get winded, and my muscles ache. At least my weight is stable. I'll talk to the cardiologist.
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Old 26th August 2020, 09:35 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Novo Nordisk hasn't exactly been ...

And speaking of Novo Nordisk. Take a look at this graph of Danish companies' net profit for the first six months of 2020 (- you have to scroll down a little):
Danske selskaber tjener mere end 40 milliarder midt i coronakrisen (TV2.dk, Aug. 26, 2020)
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Old 29th August 2020, 08:03 AM   #411
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Arne Astrup suggests that the obese be among the first to receive Covid-19 vaccine when it becomes available: https://www.facebook.com/Arne.V.Astr...2337?__tn__=-R
Based on this new study: Individuals with obesity and COVID‐19: A global perspective on the epidemiology and biological relationships (Obesity Reviews/onlinelibrary.wiley.com, Aug. 26, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st September 2020, 06:07 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
How many Hindus are in the English Vegetarian Society?

Re exercise for weight loss: Body builders and American footballers in training can burn 8,000 k/day. I did for 3 months, lost 60 lbs. NOT pedaling a bicycle or walking you pussy. Heavy physical labor. I was restoring a truck, see my avatar. Bending, stooping, lifting. Pumping jacks, pushing 1,000lb frame around, 400lb cab, 300lb axle assembles. On about 2,500k/day low carb/ meat and veggies. Back when I worked for a living I ate 7,000K/day, fast food. And my weight was stable. Ipso, I was burning those 7,000. Lean body mass, 220lbs.

They claim that Americans are exercising even more than they used to. But I doubt they take into effect the physical labor expended at work. We've lost so many manufacturing jobs, and mechanized so many, that I can't believe physical labor at work is considered in their exercise.

Last couple years I have no exercise tolerance. I just found out that one of my BP meds is to prevent increase in heart rate. It won't go faster than 60. If I need it to, I just get winded, and my muscles ache. At least my weight is stable. I'll talk to the cardiologist.
I did regular heavy physical labor for the first 20 years of my working life.
I ate as much of whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted it, and remained in excellent trim.
Never set foot in a gym, although my recreation also tended towards the physical.

It was very difficult adapting to work that was less demanding. I still expected (and got hungry for) the thousands of extra calories, and simultaneously felt ridiculous doing traditional excercise (picking up something heavy to move it was a necessity- picking it up just to set it back down again feels stupid)

Ballooned up by about 50 pounds, took a long time to get that back under control. I am a bit of an anomaly to my family now- I always pick the most physically demanding chores to do, and pick hobbies that require a lot of effort as well. Allows me to satisfy part of my tremendous appetite without being forced into a gym.
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Old 4th September 2020, 04:43 PM   #413
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"A modelling study published in The Lancet Global Health suggests that, worldwide, one in five people are at an increased risk of severe COVID-19 should they become infected, mostly as a result of underlying Non-Communicable Diseases (NCDs). The enormous efforts to deal with COVID-19 have also disrupted the regular care often required by patients with NCDs. WHO completed a rapid assessment survey in May, 2020, and found that 75% of countries reported interruptions to NCD services. Among the most hard hit were public health campaigns and NCD surveillance efforts. Excess deaths from the disruption caused by COVID-19 might make any gains against the virus a pyrrhic victory. COVID-19 and NCDs form a dangerous relationship, experienced as a syndemic that is exacerbating social and economic inequalities."

The Lancet Editorial, "COVID-19: a new lens for non-communicable diseases", September 5, 2020.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...jbs_etoc_email
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:18 PM   #414
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I haven't Had a chance to watch this yet, but it should be relevant to this discussion.

Fat Fiction


Synopsis:
Quote:
Fat Fiction reveals how the United States government relied on questionable evidence to support one of the most damaging public health recommendations in the history of our country: the "low fat diet."
I'll try to comment after I've watched it.
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Old 13th September 2020, 08:30 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
There are many other variables, like genes, and "feeding your genes". But, do you have data to back up that assertion? Or more exaggeration from Ancel Keyes
That was not an assertion, more like a question

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And, how much longer, and what do they die from? The Veggies want to give the impression that they live forever, and have NO heart attacks, no strokes, no cancer. If the advantages were that strong, we wouldn't need studies to look at it. It would be OBVIOUS.

And their data, do the Japanese include infant mortality, or just leave those short lives out of the equation?
I dont know
I just copied the data from WHO
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Old 18th September 2020, 11:08 AM   #416
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I don't click on these lectures very often because I really haven't heard anything new in the last couple of years, but this one looked interesting.

Dr. Chris Knobbe - 'Diseases of Civilization: Are Seed Oil Excesses the Unifying Mechanism?'

He makes arguments that seed oils and not carbs per se, are the root cause of the obesity, and other disease problems.

He has three good examples of isolated communities where the intake of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA's) is very low and they have virtually no obesity, CVD, and other diseases that plague developed countries.

One group eats 90% carbs ( sweet potatoes )..

He also presents several studies ( animal ) that show it's not the calories that cause weight gain, but the type of calories.

Please give it a look before you pooh-pooh it, and say:

"Oh, he's an ophthalmologist.. Why should I listen to him about nutrition ? "

Maybe, because he has linked the increased consumption of PUFA's with macular degeneration.
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Old 18th September 2020, 10:57 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
He makes arguments that seed oils and not carbs per se, are the root cause of the obesity, and other disease problems.
I have always have thought that eating too much and doing little or no sports was the cause of obesity.
You can eat carbs as long as you dont eat too much and you do sports.
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Old 19th September 2020, 12:46 AM   #418
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Are there any peer-reviewed texts about this idea? I found this about Knobbe's AMD idea on Google Scholar in Elsevier's Medical Hypotheses.
That somebody has a pretty vague idea about a dietary cause for one particular disease of the eyes and then suddenly enlarges the scope of it to being the cause of something else entirely doesn't inspire confidence.
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Old 19th September 2020, 06:24 AM   #419
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He does a good job of showing correlation, but we know how that goes..

I'm pretty sure there is no peer-reviewed information at this point.

He says he has shown the bio-chemistry in another lecture, that he touched on in this one.

I'm inclined to take his word for it in the absence of someone else debunking it.

What did you think of the three population studies he offered?
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Old 19th September 2020, 08:19 AM   #420
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I would think it would have showed up by now in a vegeatarian study? They eat less animal fats, so more PUFAs? Do they get more AMD?

But yeah, I suspect we do eat a lot more PUFAs than back in the day. How much PUFAs can you get from a serving of mustard? vs an order of fries cooked in Canola oil?

Or can we infer anything from that diet supplement that is proven to prevent AMD? Are the ingredients depleted by PUFAs, so need boosting?

<eta:list-
Vitamin C (500 mg)
Vitamin E (400 IU)
Lutein (10 mg)
Zeaxanthin (2 mg)
Zinc (80 mg)
Copper (2 mg)

in one search, a hot second, zeaxanthin is highest in corn, and lutein is very high in corn too. Hmmm, corn is OK, concentrated corn oil is not? I suppose the same holds for mustard/rape seed/Canola. Maybe he is on to something. /eta
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Old 19th September 2020, 09:00 AM   #421
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I see where it would be more of a problem with the refined seed oil PUFAs, not the relatively small amounts found in vegetables..

You have to go deep into this list before you find more than trace amounts in any common vegetable.

Note: Corn and soy beans are not vegetables.

I have no idea how coffee ended up at the top of that list. If you follow the link it shows a fluid oz has 27mg of omega 6 ..

Of course coffee beans are seeds, after all
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Old 19th September 2020, 11:32 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I see where it would be more of a problem with the refined seed oil PUFAs, not the relatively small amounts found in vegetables..

You have to go deep into this list before you find more than trace amounts in any common vegetable.

Note: Corn and soy beans are not vegetables.

I have no idea how coffee ended up at the top of that list. If you follow the link it shows a fluid oz has 27mg of omega 6 ..

Of course coffee beans are seeds, after all
I love that site. But you have to beware of "serving size". Your setting is for 200 calories. That is A LOT of black espresso. Maybe try 100g? Rather than enter "food name"at the top, go to Tools, nutrient search. That brings up a menu (ha ha, see what I did?) Bottom of menu is "serving size".

And, corn and soy not vegetables? Fersure not animal or mineral.
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Old 19th September 2020, 11:42 AM   #423
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Yeah, I had just googled " foods high in PUFA "...
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Old 20th September 2020, 02:55 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
We don't know if low fat would have worked, because the public didn't participate. Or, to put it another way, what didn't work was the theory that the public would follow guidelines. We know that doesn't work.



In any case, aside from the USDA food guideline myth, we do have a hundred thousand studies that seem to boil down to maybe macro ratios have an effect but there's nothing convincing that I can see. Any claim that it's proven one way or the other is the product of confirmation seeking for an idee fixe. Disconfirming evidence is either not even sought, or is rejected unjustly.

The evidence is conflicting and suspiciously obscure - resembling the dietary supplement industry's "form and function" approach (as I call it: "practice by hypothesis"), and there are no slam dunk studies. Which leads me to believe that the effect of macro ratios is either trivial or nonexistent.

The reality is that people have different backgrounds and food experiences, different palates, and different physiologies. The high level goal is to reduce calorie intake with reasonable satiety. The question is: how?

When we compare the success rates of the different diet families, we find they're just about equally abysmal. Except for one (calorie counting - Weight Watchers was very consistently the most successful program) they're all within statistical noise of each other, with something like a 9% 2 year success rate, which is the minimum timeframe I will accept for adherence investigations.

But on an *individual basis* people seem to find higher success with one diet approach than they do with others, and I felt my role was to help people find their best lifestyle with the least weight gain or most weight loss.

Some people will have great success with low carb, some with low fat, some with vegetarian, some with Mediterranean, some with calorie counting, some with vegan.

It just is what it is, theories be damned.
Indeed to all that.

Plus, I think what works once for someone might not work again. Tastes change, habits change.

A crash diet, like juicing, for example, will get weight off over a few weeks and someone will rave about it, and then later, they'll look for something different when they gain it back.

Most people don't think about how to keep the weight off, or cope with the natural ups and downs.

It all involves making peace with daily periods of hunger.
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Old 20th September 2020, 09:52 AM   #425
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Have there been any updated serology study numbers? Last I heard was CDC said 14 asymptomatic cases per positive nose swab among symptomatic cases. . Is that still holding/verified?
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Old 20th September 2020, 09:59 AM   #426
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Wrong thread?
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Old 20th September 2020, 11:32 AM   #427
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I think genetics plays a part, I'm fat and became fat in my teens, despite eating exactly the same things that my sister and brother ate during our childhood. They remained slender until middle age. I wish I hadn't inherited the fat gene but so goes life.
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Old 20th September 2020, 11:36 AM   #428
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I have noticed that plain unprocessed food suits me better. If I eat too much processed food it runs through me so I stick with the basics; chicken, fish, some lean beef, fruits, veggies, and rice and potatoes. That's pretty much it, and no more than 1500- 1800 calories per day. I'm not losing any weight despite eating correctly and the right proportions.
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Old 20th September 2020, 03:09 PM   #429
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How did you determine what the right proportions are?


Have you explored low carb high ( relatively ) fat?

You might be surprised how satisfying it can be , without counting calories.
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Old 21st September 2020, 06:41 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Wrong thread?
Yup, obviously. Thanks.
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Old 21st September 2020, 06:47 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I have noticed that plain unprocessed food suits me better. If I eat too much processed food it runs through me so I stick with the basics; chicken, fish, some lean beef, fruits, veggies, and rice and potatoes. That's pretty much it, and no more than 1500- 1800 calories per day. I'm not losing any weight despite eating correctly and the right proportions.
Vegetable oil does me no good. Coconut oil is better, but I've shifted to beef shortening. I buy a 50lb block that lasts me a year. It does not go bad at room temp, no refrigeration needed. So it lasts for several fryings without turning rancid or into varnish like veg oil.

Meantime I started fermenting my own pickles and sauerkraut for the best probiotics.No vinegar, just the natural lactic acid. I'm even making some spicy mustard- the kind with the seeds.
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Old 21st September 2020, 03:57 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
How did you determine what the right proportions are?


Have you explored low carb high ( relatively ) fat?

You might be surprised how satisfying it can be , without counting calories.
Diabetes education classes, but I'm a nurse too so I had a general idea what portion control was.
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Old 21st September 2020, 03:58 PM   #433
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Vegetable oil does me no good. Coconut oil is better, but I've shifted to beef shortening. I buy a 50lb block that lasts me a year. It does not go bad at room temp, no refrigeration needed. So it lasts for several fryings without turning rancid or into varnish like veg oil.

Meantime I started fermenting my own pickles and sauerkraut for the best probiotics.No vinegar, just the natural lactic acid. I'm even making some spicy mustard- the kind with the seeds.
I'm experimenting too to see what I can add to my menus. I go through binges with things, also, and then lose interest when something else appeals to me.
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Old 22nd September 2020, 03:59 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Diabetes education classes, but I'm a nurse too so I had a general idea what portion control was.
Portion control and proportions are very different things.

For years, the American Diabetes Association has done little to advance the idea that limiting carbohydrates ( the very cause of T2D ) is a must for reversing type 2 diabetes. That seems to be changing, but there is resistance to saying " we were wrong " ..

Nutrition education for the last few decades has been fueled by the low fat high carb model which has been shown to be wrong.
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Old 27th September 2020, 01:13 AM   #435
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Jodie, a good documentary is "Diet Fiction".

The vast majority of research, the scientific community (apart from a few on a high fat bandwagon), and the science agree that whole foods, plant-based, little to no meat is the best way to eat and lose weight and keep it off.
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Old 27th September 2020, 07:43 AM   #436
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I would really like to see your cites for that.

Meanwhile, I'm sure I can find some studies that say otherwise.

P.S.
There is a lot more to a high fat diet than " high fat " .. Over simplifying something is very misleading.
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Old 27th September 2020, 10:42 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Jodie, a good documentary is "Diet Fiction".

The vast majority of research, the scientific community (apart from a few on a high fat bandwagon), and the science agree that whole foods, plant-based, little to no meat is the best way to eat and lose weight and keep it off.
Weight loss wise, no particular diet seems to work. Health and longevity wise, the EPIC/Oxford study says meatless has no advantage, high fiber has no advantage. Not for heart attack, strokes, or colon cancer. It is one of the reasons I think those diseases have a genetic basis. Obesity and diabetes are symptoms, not causes. Sure it is better to control the symptoms. But skinny people get heart attacks too. Even if they are vegetarians.

And oh yeah, even the American College of Cardiologists have backed off on blaming saturated fats. and like wise Statins as a preventative.
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Old 27th September 2020, 11:18 AM   #438
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The main problem with low fat, low meat, plant sourced diet studies, is that they are compared to SAD diets with large amounts of refined grains, sugar, PUFAs and processed foods.

Of course such diets are healthier, but are they more healthful than animal sourced diets?

There are studies that show they are.
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Old 27th September 2020, 03:43 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The main problem with low fat, low meat, plant sourced diet studies, is that they are compared to SAD diets with large amounts of refined grains, sugar, PUFAs and processed foods.

Of course such diets are healthier, but are they more healthful than animal sourced diets?

There are studies that show they are.
I read that as "there are studies that show low fat plant based diets are no more healthful than animal sourced diets" ? If so, yes, EPIC/Oxford for one. If I have it backwards, I need cites.
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Old 27th September 2020, 06:39 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Weight loss wise, no particular diet seems to work.
Not true, fasting diets work. Not only do they result in fewer absolute calories in, they do so in a sustainable way by improving insulin sensitivity, and suppressing appetite (e.g. by reducing the hormone Ghrelin), as compared to calorie-counting/portion controlling diets that are proven to fail. Extended fasting in particular, which depletes the store of glycogen in the liver after about 24 hours, puts the faster squarely in ketosis, which offers all kinds of fat burning and insulin sensitivity benefits. Not to mention it also results in autophagy, the bodies "housekeeping" mode where it removes damaged/diseased cells. It's also proven to reduce fusobacterium which is associated with a number of cancers.

Quote:

Health and longevity wise, the EPIC/Oxford study says meatless has no advantage, high fiber has no advantage. Not for heart attack, strokes, or colon cancer. It is one of the reasons I think those diseases have a genetic basis. Obesity and diabetes are symptoms, not causes. Sure it is better to control the symptoms. But skinny people get heart attacks too. Even if they are vegetarians.
Fasting when combined with a ketogenic diet has been shown to reverse type II diabetes, by increasing insulin sensitivity. Insulin resistance is the primary cause of type II.

Quote:

And oh yeah, even the American College of Cardiologists have backed off on blaming saturated fats. and like wise Statins as a preventative.
Statins are horrible, and should be avoided. Saturated fats are definitely among the least healthy fats, but not as bad as refined sugar, or high carb in general.
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