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8th January 2020, 03:27 PM | #321 |
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I skimmed through it, and don't have any problem with the premise. What's the big surprise? In fact, it emphasizes my claim about cheap caloric dense. nutritionally deficient food being at the root of the problem. In fact, don't poor people rely on fast food a lot? The emergence of unprecedented obesity in China, and probably all of Asia for that matter, can mostly be attributed to the increase in American fast food restaurants and sugar drinks.. It's capitalism at its best. |
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8th January 2020, 03:34 PM | #322 |
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Why do you think i have forgotten that?
it may effect the poor in a disproportionate manner, but why was this not more of a problem 60 years ago? I don't think that you can show that average income Americans are not a big part of the obesity epidemic? The very wealthy are excluded from a lot of problems that plague lower income people. |
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8th January 2020, 07:09 PM | #323 |
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For a few. But those few aren't driving the overall trend, and the actual data makes that pretty clear.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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13th January 2020, 02:14 PM | #324 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Yes, they do! Unlike the rich, who can afford proper food - and pay the wages for people to shop and cook for them. If they don't choose to turn the whole thing into an enjoyable experience.
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No, obesity in Japan, for instance, is a small fraction of the U.S. level. Fast food in Japan tends to be healthy, non-fattening. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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13th January 2020, 02:29 PM | #325 |
Penultimate Amazing
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You mean back in the days when families could afford to have the wife be a homemaker, cooking, baking and cleaning? When you didn't have food deserts? When advertising agencies were busy telling people to smoke the right brand of cigarettes, instead of selling sirupy stuff to grown ups as well as children?
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No, I can't, and I won't. Why should I?! Average income Americans actually are a big part of the obesity epidemic. Average income Americans are poor!
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Yes, they are. One of them being obesity. Exactly my point. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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13th January 2020, 02:52 PM | #326 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I assume that it's still the same article you claim to be the data ...
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But it's how you argue. As long as it's not impossible for poor people to get hold of healthy food, for instance by sacrificing their spare time to take bus rides to supermarkets, all the factors that are against their doing so don't count. For instance, that they don't have the money to consider buying vegetables at three times the price, then, no, that's got nothing to do with it at all, right?
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I don't know about U.S. American prices of frozen vegetables, but I do know that it's not what they sell at the local gas station. Most supermarkets, however, do have them. At least, they do around here. It's what I usually buy, but I also have the time to cook them.
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Same 'data' from the same article again, I suppose.
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Yes, to you cost probably is a small factor. To the people who don't have the money, it isn't.
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Dietary recommendations don't really impact people's food 'choices' anyway, so no, you can't blame that one on the government. Advertising, for instance, impacts people much more than governmental dietary recommendations. (And it will take an awful lot of nutritional education and practical cooking classes to make up for that.) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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13th January 2020, 02:58 PM | #327 |
Penultimate Amazing
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When people drown in the ocean, it's not because water has suddenly been made abundantly available to them. It's because they've been deprived of oxygen.
The people with the scuba gear don't have that problem. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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13th January 2020, 03:51 PM | #328 |
Penultimate Amazing
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More straw men. The fact that food deserts aren't relevant doesn't mean nothing is. And what's this "three times the price" stuff? Frozen vegetables are pretty cheap. Cost isn't what keeps poor people from buying them.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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13th January 2020, 07:35 PM | #329 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Actually, the FDA food pyramid of 1980 did make a difference in eating habits. Less fats, less red meat, more carbs. People ate what they were told. Obesity went up. And so did the use of that pyramid, it's all over the world now. And so is obesity.
65% of calories from carbs, and obesity climbs. It's not the fat, or the red meats, or the availability of high fat fast food. It's the carbs, sugar especially. All brought about by Ancel Keyes, who did not have any science behind his opinion that cholesterol is the culprit. But there is hope, even the Heart Association has backed off on low fat diets. We need new dietary recommendations (lower carbs, lower sugar) and we need to get that word out. OT: I just today learned what a "funnel plot" is. The subject I had surfed to was low salt diets. The funnel plot of the individual studies used in the meta study showed up the selection bias of the majority of the researchers. Maybe we have to look for funnel plots of meta studies? And re: lowering salt- it lowers BP, but not end points. (treating numbers. anyone?) Because low salt diets also raise the Aldosterone, rennin, and adrenaline levels. FSM! I'm starting to lose faith in medicine all together. |
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14th January 2020, 12:07 AM | #330 |
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14th January 2020, 01:33 AM | #331 |
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Yes, Japan has McD and KFC, too. Nobody claimed that they didn't. But they also have an awful lot of much better alternatives. Again: The point isn't that unhealthy food exists and is available. It is available to rich people, too.
By the way, apparently McD has recently added the so-called "Adult Cream Pie" to their Japanese menu! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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14th January 2020, 01:48 AM | #332 |
Penultimate Amazing
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It's possible that people "ate what they were told", but don't make the mistake of thinking that they did so because it's what they were told.
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And Ancel Keys also managed to discredit people who actually knew what they were talking about: Ancel Keys: The sugar controversy (Wikipedia). (And he ignored Denmark! How is that even possible?!! ) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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14th January 2020, 04:30 PM | #333 |
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This is kinda exhausting, yeah. Carbs went up because people drank more Coke, which is the opposite of what the food guide recommended. Nobody cut down on fat. Fat intake per day actually went up during this period.
Macro ratios adjusted a tiny bit almost exactly the same, but we have gradually increased total calories per day. More fat, more caloric carbs, more protein. More ethanol. And the non-caloric carbs declined. That's soluble and non-soluble fibre. We eat fewer veggies, per calorie consumed, than we did 50 years ago. Overall caloric increase for men, average energy intake increased from 2,450 kcals to 2,618 kcals (p<0.01), and for women, from 1,542 kcals to 1,877 kcals (p<0.01). This is per NHANES studies (there is a series starting in 1971, I did not include the current NHANES). Or, to put this another way, over the timeframe in discussion, a male has increased annual calories by 61 thousand calories, women by 122 thousand calories. Per year. A good comprehensive reference on grams and calories fat intake increase during this period is [[Ernst ND, Obarzanek E, Clark MB, Briefel RR, Brown CD, Donato K. Cardiovascular health risks related to overweight. J Am Diet Assoc 1997;97(suppl):S47--S51.]] A good reference for carb intake increase during this period is [[Chanmugam P, Guthrie JF, Cecilio S, Morton JF, Basiotis PP, Anand R. Did fat intake in the United States really decline between 1989--1991 and 1994--1996? J Am Diet Assoc 2003;103:867--72.]] I can't disagree more with a description of the western diet during this period as 'eating what we were told [by the experts]' - what we did was eat more of everything, and washed it down with even more soft drinks, as if the guidelines didn't exist at all. |
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14th January 2020, 04:33 PM | #334 |
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14th January 2020, 04:43 PM | #335 |
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I'm assuming you mean the AHA?
Which doesn't mean much.. the American Heart Association is not a medical organization, and academics consider them a joke. They are essentially a business that sells approval stamps to healthwash what is otherwise junkfood. Their endorsement of Honey Nut Cheerios a few years ago exposed their business model as essentially unrelated to health science and they are still doing PR damage control. A key problem is identification of credible sources of information, unfortunately. The AHA ain't one of them. |
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14th January 2020, 05:18 PM | #336 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Actually, no. Westerners eat more fat, more red meat, more carbs, more everything - at least if we're comparing vs the publication of the original fda guidlines 1971. The caloric increase alone is quite satisfactory to explain increased obesity.
Lots of changes globally, not the least of which is increased consumption of everything due to improved standards of living pretty much everywhere. Malnutrition has plummeted for the same reason. Per capita calorie consumption has drifted upward for generations. Here's a sample chart: [Caloric supply by region]. In a previous post I cited a US increase of about 10% since 1971, have a look at China! Caloric intake almost doubled in that timeframe. |
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14th January 2020, 05:37 PM | #337 |
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And meantime life spans went up along with BMI. Hmmmm....
In the Vegetarian/ heart disease/stroke thread in Soc Iss, the huge study comparison people of Vs vs Omnivores... The Vs ate no red meat, were lower BMI, lower sodium, no animal fats- and don't live any longer. Looks like they do everything thing right, all at once. Which gives me doubts about all the rest of the "medical studies". I'm going to go have a Big Mac while I think about it. |
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14th January 2020, 06:19 PM | #338 |
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14th January 2020, 06:41 PM | #339 |
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Not horizontally, and not for what's called 'quality years'. Meaning, not if we control for advancements in medical technology over time, which extend life but not necessarily improve quality of life.
Just as an example, I have the same cancer gene as my biological mother. She died in 1968 at the age of 17. I got ill at the age of 50 and am in remission. My vegan diet may have given me more quality years, and advancements in technology have increased survival rates. We need multiple regression analyses to isolate the effects of diet alone. I'd have to read the thread to comment accurately, but if it's the Nurse Study, there are reasons it has poor generalization. |
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15th January 2020, 06:33 AM | #340 |
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Interesting author, Nina Teicholz. Books, blog, You-tube. She is an investigative journalist, looking into facts and looking for biases.
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9th March 2020, 02:56 PM | #341 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Brand new consensus against fat-shaming:
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And an old study:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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10th March 2020, 05:02 PM | #342 |
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I don't think weight discrimination is necessarily fat shaming..
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18th April 2020, 05:49 AM | #343 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Low carb/low fat and mortality; more complicated than sometimes assumed:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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18th April 2020, 03:07 PM | #344 |
Penultimate Amazing
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" In this cohort study of 37 233 US adults 20 years or older, overall low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets were not associated with total mortality,.... "
The comparisons made were between "bad carbs vs good carbs" and "bad fats vs good fats". I don't have access to the full paper. Good/bad fats are defined by saturatedness. How did they define good/bad carbs? I suspect some deep data mining by vegetarian authors wearing bright lamps to find these correlations. |
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19th April 2020, 02:15 AM | #345 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I also don't have access, but I think it's probably a question of distinguishing between food groups. For instance, fatty dairy products don't seem to be a problem. Fatty fish seem to be health food, too. They actually appear to be healthier than low-fat ones. In the case of carbs, there's a difference between eating fruit and vegetables like potatoes and getting your carbs from sweets and cakes. And whole-grain appears to be healthier than ordinary flour.
But it would be nice to know the criteria used to distinguish between good and bad ... |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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19th April 2020, 07:04 AM | #346 |
Penultimate Amazing
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And my personal scapegoat is Hydrogenated Vegetable Oils. I suspect them to be the only deadly fat/oil, and that they get lumped in with saturated fats, which gives sat fat a bad name. It may be the trans fats. Up to 45% historically. And the data used in this study goes back to those days. In fact it is based in America where we still have HVO with up to 5% trans. (less than 1/2 gram per serving is announced as "zero grams", it's rounded down) So I fry in "Healthy Fat", beef shortening. Naturally 1/2% Trans.
And the study in discussion is odd because the conclusions of both wings, fat and carb, recommend vegetable proteins. Yet the big study of vegetarianism done in England showed no advantage to vegetariansim. So I am suspecting bias. |
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19th April 2020, 10:44 AM | #347 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I agree with you about Hydrogenated Vegetable Oils/trans fats. They have probably killed more people than the coronavirus will ever do. Fortunately, and at (too) long last, they are being phased out in most of the world.
I got the JAMA link here: Arne V. Astrup. He is not partisan in this question. In fact, vegetarians and vegans attack him all the time, i.e. whenever he shares a link to studies showing that meat and dairy aren't unhealthy. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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19th April 2020, 04:24 PM | #348 |
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Too bad you won't see a study with no grains..
No one is going to fund such a study. As close as you will get ( for now ) are the results that Virta is getting for reversing T2D.. |
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19th April 2020, 05:02 PM | #349 |
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20th April 2020, 11:07 AM | #350 |
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21st April 2020, 05:51 PM | #351 |
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Some Interesting observations from Amber O'Hearn, who has been successful in taking care of several health issues on an all meat diet.
Carbohydrate Restriction: too much or not enough?
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10th June 2020, 08:20 AM | #352 |
Penultimate Amazing
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This looks interesting
Mitochondrial uncoupler BAM15 reverses diet-induced obesity and insulin resistance in mice Can be orally administered and increases cell respiration and calorie consumption even without increases in activity level and therefor can achieve weight loss without major changes in calorie intake. It also seems to protect against glucose intolerance and has strong antioxidant effects In animal testing it's seems safe across a wide range of dosages. The only drawback seems to be a relatively short duration (half-life of ~2 hours)
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10th June 2020, 09:07 AM | #353 |
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I think a large chunk of the US obesity epidemic can be explained by the diet yo-yo effect:
Americans diet more than any other nation, and are heavier than most. Reason being that they don't try to permanently change their nutrient and lifestyle, but try to sprint their way to the desired weight, and then rebound and then some. I would put money on obesity going down if we banned all advertising on diet and diet-realted products and services. |
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10th June 2020, 01:10 PM | #354 |
Penultimate Amazing
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You would lose that money. There is no doubt that keeping your weight down is more difficult than losing weight for just a short period of time. Nevertheless, losing weight fast, i.e. "to sprint their way to the desired weight," seems to be better than the often recommended slow weight loss.
I don't know if google can make this article readable: Myte 3: ”Det er bedre at tabe sig langsomt – så holder man det bedre på sigt” |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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10th June 2020, 02:55 PM | #355 |
Illuminator
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I would put money on obesity going down if there were more ready-to-eat or partially prepared products available in the grocery stores without added sugar and refined grains (which raises insulin response adn triggers larger appetites in most people). A lot of people don't have time to cook from scratch.
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13th June 2020, 06:35 PM | #356 |
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Right. A magic pill, instead of healthier eating habits.
No. It can be explained by eating/drinking high caloric, nutrient deficient, easily obtained processed foods that dominate the advertising industry and grocery store shelves. |
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14th June 2020, 08:25 AM | #357 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I agree, but don't forget financial availability. In areas where people can afford to pay for healthy food, it is usually available. One such chain in Denmark is Irma. When I use Google Maps, I find more of them in affluent areas than in less affluent ones. It is expensive to be healthy in a market economy. The **** that is easy to produce, distribute, and has a long shelf life is often the only food that poor people can afford. It's no coincidence that trans fats had to be banned. Trans fats weren't ubiquitous before the ban due to consumer demand. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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14th June 2020, 10:05 AM | #358 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
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Unfortunately, there's a reason they're not on the shelf: people don't buy them.
Recall in 2010ish when Campbell's did a reformulation of their soup line to reduce salt? Good for health, big advertising campaign. Sales plummeted because... salt is tasty. Sample ad:
I agree that prepackaged healthier meals would be great, and I think in principle consumers do too, but consumers have a dissonance between what they want and what they actually buy. |
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14th June 2020, 10:08 AM | #359 |
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14th June 2020, 02:07 PM | #360 |
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Quote:
It's Time to End the War on Salt
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I'm sure the " Heart Healthy " endorsement sells a lot of animal feed pretending to be healthful breakfast food. |
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