ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Venezuela incidents , Venezuela issues , Venezuela politics

Reply
Old 19th February 2019, 08:17 AM   #801
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,572
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What's wrong with it is that they're measuring a vague, subjective value by subjectively determined metrics for judging that value. Like I said at the very beginning, they're evaluating something which is a matter of subjective opinion, not objective fact.
Every single metric of freedom is going to have this issue.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 09:09 AM   #802
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,270
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Every single metric of freedom is going to have this issue.
That's not a counter-argument, if you don't value freedom.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 09:26 AM   #803
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,572
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's not a counter-argument, if you don't value freedom.
The point is that we can have differing views on what freedom means, but if you know what the other means by it, you can tell whether their data and methodology leads to their conclusion. Kelly has not managed to do that.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 10:34 AM   #804
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,270
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The point is that we can have differing views on what freedom means, but if you know what the other means by it, you can tell whether their data and methodology leads to their conclusion. Kelly has not managed to do that.
I... think you might have missed what I'm implying (namely that maybe kellyb satisfies the proposed conditional).
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 10:35 AM   #805
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,572
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I... think you might have missed what I'm implying (namely that maybe kellyb satisfies the proposed conditional).
I don't follow you.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 10:59 AM   #806
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,270
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't follow you.
I was hinting that perhaps kellyb doesn't value freedom at all, in which case all possible metrics of freedom are pointless to her.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 11:09 AM   #807
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,572
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I was hinting that perhaps kellyb doesn't value freedom at all, in which case all possible metrics of freedom are pointless to her.
Ok, it was more straightforward than I anticipated.

I don't think that's the case. I think it's clear that she thinks freedom can only mean what it means to her.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 11:18 AM   #808
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,270
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ok, it was more straightforward than I anticipated.
Sorry to disappoint.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 11:23 AM   #809
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,572
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sorry to disappoint.
It says a lot about the discussions on this forum that I genuinely expected my first thought to be too simple to be correct.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 12:16 PM   #810
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,455
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Once upon a time in Freedomocracy ... the tale of Johnny Versus The News Man
The interesting thing about that parable is at no point does Johnny find evidence of his opposing view. He writes that the news-man is lying, but only because Johnny feels like the news man is lying. He's not liked for revealing the truth, but only for supporting an alternative narrative that some people like better.

In that story the news-man may or may not be lying, but Johnny most certainly is.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 04:13 PM   #811
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,725
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Every single metric of freedom is going to have this issue.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ok, it was more straightforward than I anticipated.

I don't think that's the case. I think it's clear that she thinks freedom can only mean what it means to her.
Belz, what is the "something" referred to in this sentence? ---> "They're evaluating something which is a matter of subjective opinion, not objective fact."
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.

Last edited by kellyb; 19th February 2019 at 04:15 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 04:42 PM   #812
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,572
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Belz, what is the "something" referred to in this sentence? ---> "They're evaluating something which is a matter of subjective opinion, not objective fact."
If you think it's all a matter of subjective opinion, then you can't say that their conclusions are wrong or suspect, can you?

You can't have your cake and eat it. Either it's all a matter of opinion and yours isn't better than theirs, or we can study the data and methodology based on the axioms and see if their conclusion follows. So which is it?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 05:18 PM   #813
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,725
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If you think it's all a matter of subjective opinion, then you can't say that their conclusions are wrong or suspect, can you?
I can find them as valid as an argument that cats are better than dogs, or that blue is a better color than green.

Quote:
You can't have your cake and eat it. Either it's all a matter of opinion and yours isn't better than theirs, or we can study the data and methodology based on the axioms and see if their conclusion follows. So which is it?
I've said all along, over and over again, that it's all just a matter of subjective opinion, not objective face.

I even said "If you think this: [insert HF metric]...makes sense in the context of your own idea of "freedom", then cool. I just hold a different and almost opposite idea about "freedom".

I have no idea how I could be more clear.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.

Last edited by kellyb; 19th February 2019 at 05:46 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 06:00 PM   #814
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 32,522
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I can find them as valid as an argument that cats are better than dogs, or that blue is a better color than green.



I've said all along, over and over again, that it's all just a matter of subjective opinion, not objective face.

I even said "If you think this: [insert HF metric]...makes sense in the context of your own idea of "freedom", then cool. I just hold a different and almost opposite idea about "freedom".

I have no idea how I could be more clear.
Two questions:

1. Does their conclusion follow from their premises and their data?

2. Did they do a good job of collecting their data?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 06:03 PM   #815
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,572
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I can find them as valid as an argument that cats are better than dogs, or that blue is a better color than green.



I've said all along, over and over again, that it's all just a matter of subjective opinion, not objective face.

I even said "If you think this: [insert HF metric]...makes sense in the context of your own idea of "freedom", then cool. I just hold a different and almost opposite idea about "freedom".

I have no idea how I could be more clear.
You've been clear as mud. You constantly switch between it being a matter of opinion, because you disagree on their definitions, and on dismissing their conclusions because of it. If you agree that their opinion is as valid as yours, then you can't dismiss their conclusions if they're otherwise sound.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:48 PM   #816
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,725
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You've been clear as mud. You constantly switch between it being a matter of opinion, because you disagree on their definitions, and on dismissing their conclusions because of it. If you agree that their opinion is as valid as yours, then you can't dismiss their conclusions if they're otherwise sound.
Yes, I can dismiss their opinion-based conclusion. Who made up the rule that all opinions must be accepted by everyone as true/valid?

Don't you reject opinions based on subjective morals which are different from your own? For example, if a vegan believes that animals have "personhood" and deserve the same rights humans deserve, and concludes that raising backyard chickens is slavery and should be illegal, do you NOT dismiss that argument as simply out of line with your own morality?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:49 PM   #817
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,725
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Two questions:

1. Does their conclusion follow from their premises and their data?

2. Did they do a good job of collecting their data?
What's their premise?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:51 PM   #818
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 32,522
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What's their premise?
LOL.

You don't know their premises? What do you think you and Belz... have been talking about this whole time?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2019, 08:54 PM   #819
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,725
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
LOL.

You don't know their premises? What do you think you and Belz... have been talking about this whole time?
I'm asking you to state their premise.
Can you?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2019, 12:40 PM   #820
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,270
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The interesting thing about that parable is at no point does Johnny find evidence of his opposing view. He writes that the news-man is lying, but only because Johnny feels like the news man is lying. He's not liked for revealing the truth, but only for supporting an alternative narrative that some people like better.

In that story the news-man may or may not be lying, but Johnny most certainly is.
It's all very post-modern. There is no truth, only power structures, and narratives which support those power structures. Johnny never finds evidence of his opposing views because that's simply irrelevant. The important point is that Johnny is telling a narrative that supports a different power structure.

That level of stupidity doesn't come naturally, you have to be educated into it.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2019, 12:48 PM   #821
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,572
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yes, I can dismiss their opinion-based conclusion. Who made up the rule that all opinions must be accepted by everyone as true/valid?
This is at least the third time in just a few days that you ask me a question about a position I have never held or stated. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? Where did I say that all opinions are true or valid?

The problem is NOT that all opinions are valid. The problem is that you reject thers because it ISN'T THE SAME AS YOURS.

Quote:
Don't you reject opinions based on subjective morals which are different from your own?
Not merely because they differ from mine, no.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2019, 01:04 PM   #822
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 43,274
GIven it's record, I have every reason for having negative attitudes toward Marxism,
Forget what Marxism is on paper, just look at it how it worked in the real world.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2019, 01:09 PM   #823
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 43,274
Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Oh, you mean the war that was won by the soviets?
Oh, a Uncle Joe fan. Shoud have guessed.
I am not denying that vital role that Russia played in World War 2, but to just dismiss the war efforct of the US and the UK is pretty ignorant. And ,incidently, follows the Russian line on World War 2:every nation but Russia was inconseuqntial.
But I think you have demonstrated your dislike and contempt for everybody not as far as the left as you are clearly. Particualry Americans.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2019, 01:45 PM   #824
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 16,406
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Johnny never finds evidence of his opposing views because that's simply irrelevant.

Johnny judges what The News Man says from the last time he believed him, over which he lost his legs. I'm unsure if you guys really lack the reading comprehension or just do your usual "nothing to see here" routine.
__________________
ALOHA
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2019, 03:13 PM   #825
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,270
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Johnny judges what The News Man says from the last time he believed him, over which he lost his legs. I'm unsure if you guys really lack the reading comprehension or just do your usual "nothing to see here" routine.
The fact that he lost his legs provides zero indication of whether or not the News Man was factually correct, let alone which facts were incorrect or how. I'm unsure if you really lack the critical thinking skills to recognize this or are just doing your usual reflexive defense of anything that seems anti-American.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2019, 03:18 PM   #826
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 16,406
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm unsure if you really lack the critical thinking skills to recognize this or are just doing your usual reflexive defense of anything that seems anti-American.

Reminder: I rubbed the fine writing of this Australian under your noses. There is nothing to "defend" about it at all, certainly not on the level you and your buddy attempted a "critique".

Notice we are close to the happy end of this reality-based story.
__________________
ALOHA
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2019, 03:37 PM   #827
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,725
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post

Not merely because they differ from mine, no.
So, here:

Quote:
For example, if a vegan believes that animals have "personhood" and deserve the same rights humans deserve, and concludes that raising backyard chickens is slavery and should be illegal, do you NOT dismiss that argument as simply out of line with your own morality?
You accept that owning backyard chickens is slavery and should be illegal?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2019, 06:34 PM   #828
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,455
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Johnny judges what The News Man says from the last time he believed him, over which he lost his legs. I'm unsure if you guys really lack the reading comprehension or just do your usual "nothing to see here" routine.
Lol! It's because of excellent reading skills that we’re able to critique this allegory you found.

Looking at other writings of Caitlin Johnstone, it’s all very similar to this. It’s all opinion, and the opinion is always to oppose whatever the US is doing. It’s also permeated with conspiracy thinking. She doesn’t seem to ever bring any new information in her “journalism”, she only presents the point of view that panders to an audience that holds that point of view.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2019, 08:50 PM   #829
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,725
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
She doesn’t seem to ever bring any new information in her “journalism”, she only presents the point of view that panders to an audience that holds that point of view.
When major geopolitical conflicts, shifts, and events are unfolding, she brings lots and lots of new information. (see: this) Most of her readership is already aware of that (older) information.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2019, 05:26 AM   #830
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 16,406
Inside the neoliberal laboratory preparing for the theft of Venezuela’s economy

Originally Posted by salon.com
[...] The academic laboratory of the Venezuelan coup has the highest academic pedigree of all — it’s housed at Harvard. Under the auspices of the university’s Center for International Development, the Venezuela project of the Harvard Growth Lab (there are growth labs for other countries as well, including India and Sri Lanka) is full of academic heavyweights, including Lawrence Summers (who once famously argued that Africa was underpolluted). Among the leaders of the growth lab is Ricardo Hausmann, now an adviser to Juan Guaido who has “already drafted a plan to rebuild the nation, from economy to energy.” [...]
__________________
ALOHA
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2019, 06:02 AM   #831
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,572
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
So, here:



You accept that owning backyard chickens is slavery and should be illegal?
I accept that it follows from their axioms. They'd have to work to convince me to accept these axioms, of course.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2019, 12:00 PM   #832
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,725
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I accept that it follows from their axioms. They'd have to work to convince me to accept these axioms, of course.
I've accepted all along that HF conclusions are fine for them. That's what this meant - "If you think this: [insert HF metric]...makes sense in the context of your own idea of "freedom", then cool. I just hold a different and almost opposite idea about "freedom"."
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2019, 12:09 PM   #833
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,270
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I just hold a different and almost opposite idea about "freedom"."

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2019, 12:11 PM   #834
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,572
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I've accepted all along that HF conclusions are fine for them. That's what this meant - "If you think this: [insert HF metric]...makes sense in the context of your own idea of "freedom", then cool. I just hold a different and almost opposite idea about "freedom"."
What, specifically, do you disagree on, and how does that affect the conclusions?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2019, 12:54 PM   #835
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,725
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Exactly.
"Labor rights are tyranny"
"A Minimum wage is oppression"
"Debt is wealth/investment/freedom"
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2019, 01:04 PM   #836
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,725
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What, specifically, do you disagree on, and how does that affect the conclusions?
I don't think "having labor rights" is "oppression", for one thing. I think the opposite is true.

Also, I look at stuff like the ability, fought for and granted as a right of citizenship, to change jobs without worrying about losing health care as a big factor in "freedom" in the modern world. I look at the absence of having to worry about going into bankruptcy because of medical bills as freedom, too.
Even employers choose to relocate to Canada just so they don't have to deal with US health insurance for their employees.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.

Last edited by kellyb; 21st February 2019 at 01:05 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2019, 01:06 PM   #837
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,572
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I don't think "having labor rights" is "oppression", for one thing. I think the opposite is true.
Ok, that's a start. Did they flat out say that? Or did they word it otherwise and that's how you interpret it?

Quote:
Also, I look at stuff like the ability, fought for and granted as a right of citizenship, to change jobs without worrying about losing health care as a big factor in "freedom" in the modern world.
On the other hand I can understand why one would consider that forcing employers to cover for that is an infringement on their freedom.

Quote:
I look at the lack of having to worry about going into bankruptcy because of medical bills as freedom, too.
How so? It's certainly a quality of life thing, but freedom?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2019, 01:24 PM   #838
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,725
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ok, that's a start. Did they flat out say that? Or did they word it otherwise and that's how you interpret it?
They never state their axioms/premise anywhere. You're left reading their conclusions and teasing their axioms/premise out from there.

Quote:
On the other hand I can understand why one would consider that forcing employers to cover for that is an infringement on their freedom.
That's part of what makes the whole thing so silly and infuriating.
In other countries, it's not the employer who has to "do" health care. It's just paid for by everyone's taxes. Health care is like national park access and garbage pickup and fire service there.

Quote:
How so? It's certainly a quality of life thing, but freedom?
Historically, debt and slavery have generally gone hand in hand. Think of the word "bonds" - it's "chains" and "debt". People used to sell themselves into slavery over debt, and sometimes earn their way out of slavery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom
Quote:
Serfdom is the status of many peasants under feudalism, specifically relating to manorialism. It was a condition of debt bondage, which developed primarily during the High Middle Ages in Europe and lasted in some countries until the mid-19th century
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2019, 04:06 PM   #839
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,270
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Exactly.
"Labor rights are tyranny"
"A Minimum wage is oppression"
"Debt is wealth/investment/freedom"
But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. kellyb had won the victory over herself. She loved Big Brother.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2019, 04:13 PM   #840
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 43,274
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. kellyb had won the victory over herself. She loved Big Brother.
"He Loved Big Brother" is one of the most horryfhing final sentences in the English language.
That is what makes 1984 such a classic:It is so brilliantly written.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:24 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.