|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
17th April 2018, 01:41 PM | #1361 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
|
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
18th April 2018, 02:21 AM | #1362 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
|
18th April 2018, 02:41 AM | #1363 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 7,070
|
Oh dear....
|
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda |
|
18th April 2018, 03:09 AM | #1364 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
|
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
18th April 2018, 05:13 AM | #1365 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
Menzies was not PM at the time of Munich (he was attorney-general); he didn't become PM until after the death of Joseph Lyons in April 1939. That aside, Menzies' views on appeasement can hardly be considered unbiased, as he was himself an arch-appeaser who favored negotiations with Hitler even after the invasion of Poland and the declaration of war (see here). And speaking of Menzies, here is an excerpt from his war speech: "It is my melancholy duty to inform you officially that in consequence of a persistence by Germany in her invasion of Poland, Great Britain has declared war upon her and that, as a result, Australia is also at war." Nothing about Australians' having any choice about it, though even if they had, there would still have been overwhelming support for standing with Britain, just as there would have in September 1938. I'm going to request the book AUSTRALIA AND APPEASEMENT: Imperial Foreign Policy and the Origins of World War II, by Christopher Waters, on Inter-Library Loan. Indiana University has a copy, so I should be able to get it fairly quickly. For now, here are excerpts from two reviews. From The Sydney Morning Herald: Former Australian prime minister Billy Hughes saw through appeasement. Hughes remained in parliament as an unretired force, using power as minister for external affairs to warn of the need for rearmament and of the inevitability of war against Germany. The Lyons government in the late 1930s pledged itself to maintaining support for British appeasement policy as though that policy was the core of a strategy by the British Empire to contain Hitler. As Australia's representative in Britain, [former Australian PM Stanley] Bruce bridged the two worlds with hostility against the enemies of appeasement. He won many debates which Australian governments supported. Then the war began.From The Australian: Australia's primary strategic motivation was distrust of Japan. If Britain were involved in a full-scale European conflict, its navy might become overstretched in the Far East. "The growing fear," Waters explains, "[was] that a sufficient fleet would not be sent to Singapore in a time of war." |
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
18th April 2018, 08:11 AM | #1366 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
18th April 2018, 10:23 AM | #1367 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
I note that those who accuse others of having a Closed mind often have a mind so open that the brains fall out...
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
18th April 2018, 10:25 AM | #1368 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
I found the origin of the hilited paragraph; it's from a BBC study guide for the Scottish history "higher", which I gather is something like an Ordinary Wizarding Level (O.W.L.) The passage is on the second page. Whoever made up those flash cards presumably cribbed it from here. The rest of the article is fairly reasonable as far as it goes, but it's not very detailed, and cites no sources. However, as I have shown, the part about the Imperial Conference is clearly wrong. |
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
18th April 2018, 10:30 AM | #1369 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
|
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
18th April 2018, 02:30 PM | #1370 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
So, Henri, when are you planning to answer the questions you've been asked?
Specifically, please explain:
|
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
19th April 2018, 02:06 AM | #1371 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
With what? I remember reading a book once about the artist Dora Carrington which said her arty group were conscientious objectors in the First World War, but in the second world war they all joined up to fight.
There is an internet article on that Oxford Union debate about not fighting for King and Country in 1933, which indicates the sort of thing Chamberlain was up against trying to persuade the public and the British Empire to go to war. The public and the House of Commons did not want to go to war over the Sudetanland, mainly because they had never heard of it. They had to work it out for themselves: https://www.chu.cam.ac.uk/archives/e...ountry-debate/ |
19th April 2018, 02:41 AM | #1372 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 7,070
|
Do try harder....
ps Dora carrington died in 1932. |
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda |
|
19th April 2018, 02:56 AM | #1373 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,632
|
Like the peace ballot of '34-'35? (your link)
It says that the people wanted peace, but were also willing to fight if a country (now which country did they mean there?) attacked another country. People did clearly see the evil of Nazi germany. Unfortunately not Chamberlain. |
19th April 2018, 03:39 AM | #1374 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
|
|
__________________
There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
|
19th April 2018, 05:58 AM | #1375 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
Continuing evasion noted, as usual. [citation needed] Further, all of the surviving male members of the Bloomsbury GroupWP were too old for military service in 1939. Fail. To add to erwinl's point about the Peace Ballot, which I imagine you'll ignore, if Chamberlain believed that Britain and the Empire and Commonwealth wouldn't go to war over the Sudetenland, yet, as you have claimed, he also knew that war with Hitler was inevitable, then why was there any need for appeasement at all? Why not just let Czechoslovakia fight Germany, possibly with Soviet backing? As has been pointed out to you several times, such a war would have resulted in the expenditure or destruction of large amounts of both German and Czech war materiel, which would have made Germany significantly weaker when the conflict with the Western Allies did come. Finally, you are attempting to change horses yet again. First, you claimed that Chamberlain was right to appease Hitler at Munich because, had war come in 1938, Germany would have easily defeated not only France and the Low Countries, but also Britain, and that the extra year of British rearmament somehow made all the difference. After this line of argument was utterly destroyed, you then half-heartedly shifted to claiming that Chamberlain believed, based on faulty intelligence, that this would happen, and thus made the best decision he could in the circumstances. As has been pointed out to you, this claim is still wrong, however, it's at least defensible to an extent. But, frankly, you didn't do a very good job of making the case. So now you're claiming that Chamberlain had to appease Hitler because Britain and the Empire and Commonwealth wouldn't have gone to war over the Sudetenland. This is also wrong, as has been demonstrated, but it's also nonsensical, because, as I mentioned, you have previously claimed that Chamberlain knew that armed conflict with Germany would come eventually. Appeasement only makes sense if he truly believed that he was achieving "peace in our time." |
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
19th April 2018, 07:14 AM | #1376 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
|
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
19th April 2018, 08:23 AM | #1377 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
Peter Hitchens has a controversial viewpoint about all this Polish guarantee stuff. He seems to think that if Britain had stayed neutral, like Ireland, that Britain could have been spared the horrors of war. The problem for Chamberlain, and uppermost in his mind, is that Hitler intended an unprovoked attack on Britain, as well as Russia and America and the Czechs. In the event Britain could do practically nothing to help the Poles or the Czechs.
This is what Peter Hitchens seems to think about it all: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co....d-war-two.html
Quote:
|
19th April 2018, 08:29 AM | #1378 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
This is what Churchill wrote about the Polish guarantee and what Peter Hitchens thinks about it:
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co....l-speaks-.html
Quote:
|
19th April 2018, 08:55 AM | #1379 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,726
|
We are discussing Munich (1938), not Poland (1939).
|
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks? |
|
19th April 2018, 09:08 AM | #1380 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
|
Is this the Peter Hitchens that has a column in the Mail?
|
19th April 2018, 09:16 AM | #1381 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
Henri, instead of trying to change the subject, why don't you answer the questions you've been asked?
|
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
19th April 2018, 09:45 AM | #1382 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adirondacks, NY - with Magrat!
Posts: 8,750
|
|
__________________
I used to think I was happy. then I met Magrat. |
|
19th April 2018, 09:58 AM | #1383 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
I do admit that Henri has a point. Dead people were
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
19th April 2018, 10:10 AM | #1384 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
This is the only part of either of your posts that is relevant to the topic under discussion. And, yet again, we have a journalist, and not a historian, who as usual has an agenda (debunking British participation in World War II). Further, as in the other such journalist quotes you've posted, many issues are ignored, and the few that aren't are oversimplified. Fail. |
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
19th April 2018, 10:14 AM | #1385 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
Are you claiming that Chamberlain was trying to persuade the British public/Empire to go to war and failed to do so? If so you can add this to the list of claims you need to provide evidence for. That evidence will have to be compelling as everything else presented in this thread suggests Chamberlain did the exact opposite, encouraging the public to believe war could be avoided.
|
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
19th April 2018, 12:42 PM | #1386 |
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 14,283
|
Good as well. Or we might had had Heinrich I. to deal with.
|
__________________
ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400 |
|
19th April 2018, 04:04 PM | #1387 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
19th April 2018, 04:07 PM | #1388 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
But Half Vampires were really good at kicking Nazi butt....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BloodRayne |
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
19th April 2018, 09:53 PM | #1389 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
I said "dead", not "undead"
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
20th April 2018, 12:01 AM | #1390 |
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 14,283
|
|
__________________
ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400 |
|
22nd April 2018, 09:15 AM | #1391 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
|
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
22nd April 2018, 09:35 AM | #1392 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
That was a Czech problem, not Chamberlain's problem. Neither Britain or France stopped the Czechs from taking on Germany over the Sudetanland dispute. It's just that they did not give the Czechs a guarantee, like the Polish guarantee. Chamberlain's problem was military weakness which could have been a catastrophe if war was declared in 1938.
There is some background to the Czech point of view at this website, which would be understood by those who do not have little military knowledge and no strategic ability: https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-the-...d-of-giving-in |
22nd April 2018, 10:54 AM | #1393 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
France was allied to the Czechs, Chamberlain conspired to give away Czech territory without so much as consulting them, in the face of such betrayal are you surprised the Czechs didn't fight?
And it most assuredly was Chamberlain's problem, or rather Britain's problem as he threw an ally under the bus and massively strengthened a potential enemy, one that according to you he knew we would have to fight? ETA: Oh and please do respond to Spitfire IX's questions, your refusal to support your claims is becoming tiresome. If you wish you can simply admit you can't support them and withdraw the claims. |
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
22nd April 2018, 01:11 PM | #1394 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
This is completely untrue, and frankly silly. Chamberlain didn't need to fly to Munich and meet with Hitler to avoid giving Czechoslovakia a guarantee. All he had to do was say, "We reserve the right to act as we see fit," or something to that effect, and let everyone wonder what Britain was going to do. Czechoslovakia only backed down after Beneš was told in no uncertain terms that no outside help would be forthcoming. Further, Chamberlain could certainly have held a private meeting with Beneš and explained that it was necessary for Czechoslovakia to fight, even if they lost, in order to guarantee ultimate Allied victory. But he didn't. As Garrison commented earlier, you keep saying this, and it continues not being true. Irrelevant, as discussed above. The point is that Czechoslovakia needed to fight, even if they couldn't win by themselves, or they were temporarily conquered. |
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
22nd April 2018, 02:13 PM | #1395 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
It's another point Henri keeps ignoring, the question is not could we have saved Czechsolvakia, it's could Britain and her allies have defeated Germany quicker and at lower cost in lives with a war starting in 1938? Based on the evidence I would say yes. Henri keeps saying no in effect, while making untrue claims about the military situation in 1938.
|
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
23rd April 2018, 09:08 AM | #1396 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
The Bloomsbury group is a bit of a vast complex subject, but it does seem that some of the members of it, like David Garnett and the Bells were not quite such pacifists in the second world war:
https://thecharlestonattic.wordpress...ag/art/page/2/
Quote:
|
23rd April 2018, 09:10 AM | #1397 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
Henri, what bombers would Germany have used to attack Britain in 1938? Flown from what airfields? With what fighter escort?
|
23rd April 2018, 09:55 AM | #1398 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,726
|
|
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks? |
|
23rd April 2018, 10:12 AM | #1399 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,119
|
Continuing evasion noted. I renew the questions listed above, and, to expand on my earlier post, please explain why Chamberlain needed to go to Munich if he believed that war with Hitler was inevitable, but also believed that Britain and the dominions would not support war at that time. As for Julian Bell, he was, a) killed in the Spanish Civil War, prior to the Munich Crisis, b) of the next generation of the Bloomsbury Group, and thus too young to have served (or refused to have served) in WWI, and c) serving in a noncombatant capacity. Fail. ETA: And the quotation does not support your implication that Julian's family and Garnett wavered in their pacifism. |
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
23rd April 2018, 10:41 AM | #1400 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 7,070
|
An ambulance driver or medic is a pacifist role. Brave but pacifist.
|
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|