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Old 8th December 2017, 10:25 AM   #41
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Now for the serious answer: we don't know, Trump has not said that AFAIK. He hasn't denied it either, and frankly, with him everything is possible. Last night, Dutch Labour leader Lodewijk Asscher (a Jew) said that the move is like a "bull raging through a China shop where half of the cups and saucers are broken to begin with".
Why is it important that Lodewijk Asscher is Jewish?

I don't disagree with the characterization of Trump, but that's a separate issue.

I just did a bit of research, and it turns out the US consulate in Jerusalem is just barely on the Eastern side of the Green Line, and is there deliberately so it can serve the Palestinian population.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You're putting that as if the USA has ever put pressure on Israel. Quod non.
Don't be silly, of course the US pressures Israel. All diplomacy is pressure of some sort.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The USA has the simplest and most effective pressure lever ever: money. American aid to Israel is $1bn/year civilian and $2bn/year military. Has the USA ever threatened to cut that aid? No. Every time the IDF bulldozes a Palestinian house, because a cousin twice removed committed a terrorist action against Israel, that bulldozing is sponsored by the USA.
Show me evidence that "a cousin twice removed" is the standard for bulldozing a home.
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Old 8th December 2017, 12:45 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What then is the relevance of that alleged fact, as far as settlements in the occupied areas are concerned? I say it makes no difference at all.
Alleged fact? Really?

One way it’s important is to highlight the hypocrisy of people who only see a problem with Israel taking land by force and who may not condemn other nations such as Egypt and Jordan who have also taken land by force and even refer to it as an “alleged fact”. You know, like they’re in denial that someone acting against Israel may have themselves done something wrong.

Another way it’s important is to remind you that previous to bits of it being illegally seized by Jordan and Egypt, these parts were a part of an integral whole, which was the British Mandate for Palestine, and that these lines which separate the West Bank and Gaza from the whole were armistice lines from the Israeli war of independence (often times called the “Nakba”) and do not comprise any official national border.

Interestingly, Palestinians also share this view, seeing the West Bank, Gaza, and everything in between (Israel) as part of an integral whole they call “Palestine”.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Do you say that Syria was in illegal occupation of Golan prior to 1967?
I think you need to re-read all of my previous statements and see if you can find me saying that. If you cannot find me saying that I think you should then be required to write “I will stop making up stupid straw-men” one hundred times on a chalkboard. Perhaps this would break you if this dishonest and time wasting debate tactic.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
If not, do you condemn the subsequent Zionist clearance and settlement, and Israeli annexation, of that region, which we have discussed in the past?
I think if Syria wants it back they should be required to come to the table and make peace with Israel as a condition of getting it back, just like Egypt did with Israel for the Sinai Peninsula.

Do you think Israel should be required to make peace with enemies who refuse to make peace with Israel? If so, how do you justify this double standard?
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Old 8th December 2017, 01:08 PM   #43
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think if Syria wants it back they should be required to come to the table and make peace with Israel as a condition of getting it back, just like Egypt did with Israel for the Sinai Peninsula.

Do you think Israel should be required to make peace with enemies who refuse to make peace with Israel? If so, how do you justify this double standard?
Then it makes no difference that allegedly Jordan and Egypt were in illegal occupation of land. Syria was in unchallenged legal ownership, yet was treated like the others. So your reference to legality was mischievous. Golan has been cleared of its previous population, resettled and annexed. That displaced population was committing no crime. My prediction is that Jerusalem will be cleansed. In that case the annexation came first.
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Old 8th December 2017, 01:24 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Then it makes no difference that allegedly Jordan and Egypt were in illegal occupation of land. Syria was in unchallenged legal ownership, yet was treated like the others. So your reference to legality was mischievous. Golan has been cleared of its previous population, resettled and annexed. That displaced population was committing no crime. My prediction is that Jerusalem will be cleansed. In that case the annexation came first.
You need to read the whole post, Craig.

Israel and Syria are still at war because Syria refuses to recognize Israel, unlike Jordan and Egypt who have both made Peace. When Egypt made peace, they got the Sinai Peninsula back.
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Old 8th December 2017, 05:20 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That seems a bad reason. The Knesset is the Israeli equivalent of the US Congress. Ambassadors and their deputies don't primarily talk with MPs, but with government ministers.
And if Israel was like the US, and not a parliamentary democracy, you might have a point.
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Old 9th December 2017, 11:17 AM   #46
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No embassy has been moved.

I don't expect it to happen for a while.

There is already a US Consulate in Jerusalem and funny thing is it sits right smack on the 1949 Armistice Line. The State Department could easily simply declare the Consulate has turned into an embassy.

But they won't be doing that any time soon, unless they are truly insane.
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