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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito , sexism issues

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Old 18th May 2017, 04:47 PM   #1761
Welshman
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
True. Just as they would post her US "felony record" if she had one.
In falsely accusing Amanda of lying about what the police asked her, we see the grotesque and disgusting hypocrisy of PGP posters. PGP posters bang on about Amanda lying and then falsely accuse Amanda of lying. If Amanda is such a prolific liar as PGP posters claim, why do PGP posters have to resort to inventing instances of Amanda lying?
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:31 AM   #1762
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
In falsely accusing Amanda of lying about what the police asked her, we see the grotesque and disgusting hypocrisy of PGP posters. PGP posters bang on about Amanda lying and then falsely accuse Amanda of lying. If Amanda is such a prolific liar as PGP posters claim, why do PGP posters have to resort to inventing instances of Amanda lying?
The courts agree with the PGP.

Florence court, as recently as 10 February 2017, said the following:

Quote:
We have established, therefore, that Sollecito gave, before and after he was taken

into prison, completely untrue statements concerning his and Knox's movements on the
evening of 1 November 2007 until the morning of 2 November 2007, and for the duration
of the entire proceeding, and so for the whole period of detention he remained fixed on an
untrue version of what happened
during this period of time.
and

Quote:
His
assertion that he couldn't remember accurately was unbelievable. He had lied in his
declaration on 5 November 2007 (because disproved by Popovic, as discussed earlier). His
claim to have been at his computer until 23:00 or 24:00 was not true (as shown by the lack
of interaction between 21:10 and 05:32). He had lied about receiving a telephone call from
his father at 23:00 (shown to be false by the phone logs), and that it was a lie that he had
slept from about 01:00 until 10:00 (shown by the finding that the computer was used at
05:32, and that his cell phone was turned on at 06:00, receiving only then a message which
his father had sent the previous evening).
and

Quote:
Sollecito's behaviour was also the basis for the Court of Review decision to support one of
the reasons for keeping the young man in custody, which was to prevent any interference
with evidence. This consideration made it essential to stop Sollecito communicating with
Guede or with other people because “the suspect, who has shown definite tendencies to
indulge in self-serving falsities, should be impeded from elaborating, with the help of
unprincipled third parties, new faked scenarios destined to corroborate his proclamations
of innocence based on alibis shown up to now to be quite unfounded
”.
and

Quote:
Furthermore the Court of Review considered that the danger of further crimes being
committed was supported, because “the young man has shown with his conduct and
attitude, as well as with his wavering declarations, to often align himself with the fantastic
versions of his ex-girlfriend, and exhibits a fragile temperament, prone to impulses and
suggestibility of every type
”. For the Court of Review, therefore, Sollecito's inconsistencies
and lies, together with his false or failed alibi
and following behaviour, did not only
contribute to the picture of serious evidence which justified the custody order, but in fact
demonstrate the existence of multiple reasons for custody.
and

Quote:
In the judgment, however, considering the statements made by Knox, who also claimed
that she had remained with Sollecito in his house from the evening of 1 November 2007
until 10:00 of 2 November 2007, the Court noted a lack of correspondence after 20:40, the
time of the second visit of Popovic and the last call from Sollecito's father, (or anyway,
later than 21:10, the time of the last computer interaction); the falseness of the girl's
assertions
that she had eaten in the house at 22:00 or 23:00 (because Sollecito's father at
20:40 was told that they had already eaten and that a leak had occurred under the sink
while they were washing up); the untruthfulness of her statement that both had slept
together all night until 10:00, given the evidence of human interaction with Sollecito's
computer at 05:32 and the turning on of his cell phone at about 06:00.
and, in concluded Sollecito was denied compensation:

Quote:
The behaviour of Sollecito must therefore qualify as an example of “wilful misconduct and
gross negligence”
which, according to article 314 cpp. in the interpretation always
furnished by the Supreme Court, rules out the right of a subject judged innocent to be
recompensed for unjust detention. Cassation n. 47756 of 16 October 2014 “Concerning
damages for unjust detention, the conduct of the suspect who has provided an alibi
quickly found to be false
, even if offered in right to self-defence, can be considered
relevant for ascertaining the existence of barriers such as wilful misconduct or gross
negligence, which, in the presence of a circumstantial picture already significant in and of
itself, contributes to reinforcing the suspicion of guilt”.

The pair just cannot stop lying. And the Courts agree with me.

Even Marasca refers to the pair's 'umpteen lies'.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:34 AM   #1763
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I said
(Wikipedia)


(Int'l Press Institute, Media Laws)

Defamation is a state matter, not federal. As I've asked you many times before, and which you have failed to answer: if Amanda is a convicted felon in the US, then why have you, TJMK, TMofMK and PMF failed to produce the public record of this? If there was one, they'd have proudly produced it. They haven't because there isn't one.

As far as your ludicrous claim that Trump can be impeached for defamation, where do you get this nonsense? I'd love nothing more than to see him impeached, but I am not so deep in confirmation bias that I can't see the insanity of that claim.



It's not "fair comment". It is a childish, nasty-minded, vindictive form of bullying by someone with a very warped mind who needs psychological help.

We are not talking about the civil offence of slander or libel, we are talking about Obstruction of Office.

Anyone who thinks otherwise shows a childish, nasty-minded, vindictive form of bullying by someone with a very warped mind who needs psychological help.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:39 AM   #1764
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Vixen;11844147]

When? During the many hours of questioning at the questura between the afternoon of Nov 2 and the sending of the email at around 4 AM Nov 4? After Marco Marzan had told the police that Meredith's "boyfriend" had bragged about having anal sex with her?



No one said he did. But Silenzi certainly did discuss it with Marzan. What a gentlemanly thing to do.




LOL. Why would telling some friends in Seattle via email what the police asked her draw attention away from her? If that were her purpose, she'd have volunteered that info to the police in Perugia. She had no way of knowing that the email would be forwarded to the police.
Marzan would have volunteered that information voluntarily, in confidence and in good faith.

Raff's bragging about the body being covered in Vaseline and Amanda's disgusting comments to everybody in her address book about her friend's sex life is pure gloating.

I never said Silenzi was a gentleman. Young guys do talk to each other a lot about sex. It's what guys do.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:46 AM   #1765
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The courts agree with the PGP.

Florence court, as recently as 10 February 2017, said the following:
“the young man has shown with his conduct and
attitude, as well as with his wavering declarations, to often align himself with the fantastic
versions of his ex-girlfriend, and exhibits a fragile temperament, prone to impulses and
suggestibility of every type”.

Rofl I didn't know they brought up the Shedevil Temptress angle again. We need to get Mach in here to deny it again (even though this is like the 100th time the Italians have literally written it as part of the official court record).
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:48 AM   #1766
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
YOU don't waste time on hypothetical situations? Lady, your entire argument is hypothetical.

So what are you talking about.. Amanda's calunnia or the criminal defamation charge against Edda and Curt, because you do realize they are entirely unrelated, right?

Edda and Curt were charged with criminal defamation for telling Follain that Amanda had told them she was physically abused during the interrogation. The charge only served to prove the ludicrous nature of Italian law. Amanda's accusations of physical abuse had long since been reported so this was nothing more than an intimidation ploy by the police and it didn't work. It certainly wasn't 'obstruction of justice'.

Amanda was charged and convicted for calunnia. This could be considered an act consistent with 'obstruction of justice', but only within the Italian judicial system** and only if the mens rea for calunnia was proven, and I'd argue it never was. In fact, I think this will be another key element of the ECHR appeal.

** From Wikipedia: This is evidenced through the crime of calunnia being included among other crimes against the administration of justice in the Italian Penal Code, unlike in the French Penal Code or Belgian Penal Code, which place the equivalent of calunnia with crimes against honour.

So you incorrectly try linking a criminal defamation charge to a calunnia conviction and then incorrectly claim it's equivalent to obstruction of justice in a desperate effort to defend authoring a sick caricature of Amanda and her parents. That's pretty low, even for you.

The Italian crime of calunnia carries a prison sentence of up to six years. Most US states have obstruction of office (diverting the course of an investigation) as a felony which merits up to five years jail.

This tells you it has ZERO to do with slander or libel, a civil offence, which has to be brought by the individual slandered, instead of the state, and to bring a libel case in the UK, you can wave bye-bye to at least £75K upfront in legal fees.

I defend the right of fair comment.

If you are in the public eye people will make comments.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:59 AM   #1767
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There would be no murder in our nice ancient city if not for that American vixen coming over swinging her hips and tempting our boys. It is with great sadness that I deny the defendant compensation and officially declare him whipped.
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Old 19th May 2017, 10:43 AM   #1768
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We are not talking about the civil offence of slander or libel, we are talking about Obstruction of Office.

Anyone who thinks otherwise shows a childish, nasty-minded, vindictive form of bullying by someone with a very warped mind who needs psychological help.

And yet neither Amanda nor her parents nor Raffaele nor anyone else in the case was, or will be, charged with obstruction of justice.
And exactly what is "Obstruction of Office"?

And I'm not the one who thinks that photoshopping that disgusting cartoon is acceptable behavior. You are.

Please provide Amanda's US criminal felony record which would be public information if she had one. Oh, wait. You can't because she doesn't have one.
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Old 19th May 2017, 11:23 AM   #1769
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Italian crime of calunnia carries a prison sentence of up to six years. Most US states have obstruction of office (diverting the course of an investigation) as a felony which merits up to five years jail.

This tells you it has ZERO to do with slander or libel, a civil offence, which has to be brought by the individual slandered, instead of the state, and to bring a libel case in the UK, you can wave bye-bye to at least £75K upfront in legal fees.

I defend the right of fair comment.

If you are in the public eye people will make comments.
First of all, I see you skipped right over the part where you were trying to tie what Curt and Edda were charged with to obstruction of justice, which is simply wrong.

Second, the conviction was for simple calunnia, not aggravated calunnia, so the link to 'obstruction of justice' is also wrong. Further, as has been pointed out many times, if the conviction was equivalent to a felony in the US then Amanda would have a felony record. Since she doesn't then I think we can reasonably conclude from a US perspective her conviction is viewed as a misdemeanor libel conviction. And given the Boninsegna MR, which essentially confirms Amanda was truthful wrt how the interrogations were conducted, I would expect the ECHR will rule against Italy.

Finally, not that I expected anything different, but I see you haven't admitted there is zero commonality between what Curt and Edda were charged with and what is going on with Trump and the Russian investigation. These ridiculous 'out of left field' comments like this are what completely undermine your claims of objectivity. Oh, and BTW, Curt and Edda did not "hide" in the US. They LIVE in the US and were not required to be present. Just more of your bias spin on everything.
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Old 19th May 2017, 11:24 AM   #1770
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Only in Amanda Knox' 'records'. What a disgusting person, claiming police asked her about Mez' sex life and then she repugnantly relayed this false claim into her email to the world (when police had instructed her to keep all details confidential). Her jealously and ill-will towards her victim is staggering.

There is no way police asked this woman any such thing. It's very interesting that Amanda Knox claims to know all about what the vaseline was used for. Most normal people will assume it was lip balm, as stated on the tin.

And you sit at your keyboard priggishly claiming to be in a state of shock over a hilarious film mock up. In any case, the Damian figure standing in the background has the face of a young Amanda Knox. LOL.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Marzan would have volunteered that information voluntarily, in confidence and in good faith.

Raff's bragging about the body being covered in Vaseline and Amanda's disgusting comments to everybody in her address book about her friend's sex life is pure gloating.

I never said Silenzi was a gentleman. Young guys do talk to each other a lot about sex. It's what guys do.
Your initial claim was that Amanda lied about the police questioning her about Meredith's sex life in her email and that the police would never ask her about it. I have provided evidence they did and why they did.

No one has said Marzan didn't offer the Vaseline information in good faith to the police but whether he did or not has absolutely zero relevancy. The fact is he did tell the police which is a reason they did question not only Amanda, but also Laura and Filomena about Meredith's sex life.

Yes, guys do talk and brag to each other about sex. Again, no one has denied this nor does it have any relevancy.

You continually assign motives and behavior to Raff and Amanda that you cannot possibly know but which you want to believe. Your conjecture that Raff was "bragging" about the body being covered in Vaseline is not based on any evidence. None of the people who reported his stating this said he was "bragging" or even alluded to it. I repeat; Meredith was not covered in Vaseline which Raff, had he been involved in her murder, would have known.

Your claim that Amanda was "gloating" is also not supported by the evidence. She is only repeating what she was asked and her unease about those questions is apparent. Exactly what part of this is "gloating"?

Quote:
they asked me very personal questions about meredith's
life and also about the personalities of our neighbors. how well did i
know them? pretty well, we are friends. was meredith sexually active?
yeah, she borrowed a few of my condoms. does she like anal? wtf? i
dont know. does she use vaseline? for her lips?
You are so deeply rooted in your guilt bias that you have no ability to look at anything objectively. If Knox sneezed you'd give it a nefarious motive.
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Old 19th May 2017, 02:10 PM   #1771
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Your initial claim was that Amanda lied about the police questioning her about Meredith's sex life in her email and that the police would never ask her about it. I have provided evidence they did and why they did.

No one has said Marzan didn't offer the Vaseline information in good faith to the police but whether he did or not has absolutely zero relevancy. The fact is he did tell the police which is a reason they did question not only Amanda, but also Laura and Filomena about Meredith's sex life.

Yes, guys do talk and brag to each other about sex. Again, no one has denied this nor does it have any relevancy.

You continually assign motives and behavior to Raff and Amanda that you cannot possibly know but which you want to believe. Your conjecture that Raff was "bragging" about the body being covered in Vaseline is not based on any evidence. None of the people who reported his stating this said he was "bragging" or even alluded to it. I repeat; Meredith was not covered in Vaseline which Raff, had he been involved in her murder, would have known.

Your claim that Amanda was "gloating" is also not supported by the evidence. She is only repeating what she was asked and her unease about those questions is apparent. Exactly what part of this is "gloating"?



You are so deeply rooted in your guilt bias that you have no ability to look at anything objectively. If Knox sneezed you'd give it a nefarious motive.

Oh come on, Staceyhs. According to the Florence Court of Feb 2017, who read through all relevant court documents and heard all submissions in respect of Raff's claim for compensation, when postal police arrived at the scene, Knox showed scant interest in Mez' locked door.

There is NO WAY any policeman started quizzing her about Mez' sex life. Raff and Amanda didn't even see into the room, as they stayed well to the back of the cottage when Luca kicked the door down.

In the Questura Knox and Raff were behaving in an outrageous way, offending all of Mez' friends ('the British birds', as Grinder called them).

NO WAY José did any cop sidle up to Knox and say, 'Psst, did she like it <expletive deleted>?'

It shows Amanda had insider knowledge of the murder for her to write that dreadful porn to everyone in her address book. It's like, 'Hey, I know what happened; there'll be an empty vaseline jar found on the side of the desk because - guess what - Raff and I put it there. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA What a hilarious joke.'
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Old 19th May 2017, 03:42 PM   #1772
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh come on, Staceyhs. According to the Florence Court of Feb 2017, who read through all relevant court documents and heard all submissions in respect of Raff's claim for compensation, when postal police arrived at the scene, Knox showed scant interest in Mez' locked door.

There is NO WAY any policeman started quizzing her about Mez' sex life. Raff and Amanda didn't even see into the room, as they stayed well to the back of the cottage when Luca kicked the door down.

In the Questura Knox and Raff were behaving in an outrageous way, offending all of Mez' friends ('the British birds', as Grinder called them).

NO WAY José did any cop sidle up to Knox and say, 'Psst, did she like it <expletive deleted>?'

It shows Amanda had insider knowledge of the murder for her to write that dreadful porn to everyone in her address book. It's like, 'Hey, I know what happened; there'll be an empty vaseline jar found on the side of the desk because - guess what - Raff and I put it there. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA What a hilarious joke.'
Wow, Vixen, you have truly lost it now. You are babbling on about things that make absolutely no sense.

1. In what way does whether Amanda showed interest in a locked door prior to the discovery of Meredith's body have anything to do with whether she was asked about Meredith's sex life over 24 hours after discovery of the body?

2. In what way does whether Amanda and Raffaele looked into Meredith's bedroom have any bearing on whether the police asked Amanda about Meredith's sex life over 24 hours later?

3. What relevance does Amanda and Raffaele's behavior at the Questura or whether Meredith's friends agreed with it or not have on anything being discussed here?

4. The cops didn't sidle up to Amanda, nor was that ever implied. The police were questioning everyone close to Meredith about her sex life because the crime was a sexual assault.

5. Please cite the passage in her email that you think constitutes "dreadful porn". I'll even help you by quoting the ONLY section in the entire email that has any reference to something sexual;

Quote:
how well did i know them? pretty well, we are friends. was meredith sexually active? yeah, she borrowed a few of my condoms. does she like anal? wtf? i dont know. does she use vaseline? for her lips?
Hardly what I would call "dreadful porn" but if it offends you then perhaps you should take it up with the police who were asking these questions. Amanda is merely pointing out how confused and troubled she was by these questions.

How does repeating some of the questions asked by the police show she had insider knowledge?

No where in her email does she suggest she knows what happened. No where does she mention a Vaseline jar. You have created ALL of this based on nothing other than your own bias imagination. And that you think there is any humor in any of this goes to show just how sick you are.

Stacy was spot on when she said "If Knox sneezed you'd give it a nefarious motive." It makes no difference what the subject, YOU will find it somehow indicative of guilt.

Just out of curiosity, do you believe we landed on the moon or do you think it was staged?
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Old 19th May 2017, 03:45 PM   #1773
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The courts agree with the PGP.

Florence court, as recently as 10 February 2017, said the following:



and



and



and



and



and, in concluded Sollecito was denied compensation:




The pair just cannot stop lying. And the Courts agree with me.

Even Marasca refers to the pair's 'umpteen lies'.
Marasca refers to no such thing. If the Marasca/Bruno report had, you would of referenced it.
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Old 19th May 2017, 05:07 PM   #1774
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh come on, Staceyhs. According to the Florence Court of Feb 2017, who read through all relevant court documents and heard all submissions in respect of Raff's claim for compensation, when postal police arrived at the scene, Knox showed scant interest in Mez' locked door.

There is NO WAY any policeman started quizzing her about Mez' sex life. Raff and Amanda didn't even see into the room, as they stayed well to the back of the cottage when Luca kicked the door down.In the Questura Knox and Raff were behaving in an outrageous way, offending all of Mez' friends ('the British birds', as Grinder called them).

NO WAY José did any cop sidle up to Knox and say, 'Psst, did she like it <expletive deleted>?'

It shows Amanda had insider knowledge of the murder for her to write that dreadful porn to everyone in her address book. It's like, 'Hey, I know what happened; there'll be an empty vaseline jar found on the side of the desk because - guess what - Raff and I put it there. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA What a hilarious joke.'
Wow. As TruthCalls has pointed out, none of what you wrote has anything to do with the subject we were discussing. That subject was your claim that Amanda was never asked about Meredith's sex life by the police.

No one, including me, ever suggested that the police asked Amanda about Meredith's sex life at the cottage when the murder was discovered. In fact, I clearly stated:

Quote:
When? During the many hours of questioning at the questura between the afternoon of Nov 2 and the sending of the email at around 4 AM Nov 4? After Marco Marzan had told the police that Meredith's "boyfriend" had bragged about having anal sex with her?
For anyone to think that a sexual assault plus murder would not involve questions about the victim's sex life by the police is ludicrous.


Quote:
Giacomo inadvertently also gave police a key lead that probably got them thinking about kinky sex early on. In the first days, the Vaseline by the body, coupled with the condition of the body, suggested anal rape. Giacomo had boasted to his roommate Marco Marzan that he’d tried anal sex with her. Marco had dutifully shared that with the police, and the police then quizzed everyone about the pot of Vaseline and Meredith’s potential for kinky sex. Eventually, the police asked Amanda a question about Meredith and anal sex, to which she responded, in an e-mail home describing the questioning, 'wtf?'
(Burleigh)

From Marco Zaroli's court testimony:

Quote:
I remember the girls, Filomena and Laura, worried about how they were asked about Meredith's sexual life
You wrote:

Quote:
It's like, 'Hey, I know what happened; there'll be an empty vaseline jar found on the side of the desk because - guess what - Raff and I put it there. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA What a hilarious joke
Exactly how does this show insider information? She never mentioned the Vaseline jar at all. She said the police asked her if Meredith used Vaseline. And as I have previously shown, it was the police and Mignini who suspected the Vaseline was used for anal sex, not Amanda. Get a grip on your imagination.

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Old 20th May 2017, 03:22 AM   #1775
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Wow. As TruthCalls has pointed out, none of what you wrote has anything to do with the subject we were discussing. That subject was your claim that Amanda was never asked about Meredith's sex life by the police.

No one, including me, ever suggested that the police asked Amanda about Meredith's sex life at the cottage when the murder was discovered. In fact, I clearly stated:



For anyone to think that a sexual assault plus murder would not involve questions about the victim's sex life by the police is ludicrous.


(Burleigh)

From Marco Zaroli's court testimony:



You wrote:



Exactly how does this show insider information? She never mentioned the Vaseline jar at all. She said the police asked her if Meredith used Vaseline. And as I have previously shown, it was the police and Mignini who suspected the Vaseline was used for anal sex, not Amanda. Get a grip on your imagination.
Burleigh is an active advocate for Knox. At least she's honest enough to say so. Unfortunately she has it arse over tits. There is no way police had asked or even told Amanda Knox anything at all about Mez' injuries. Police are notoriously unforthcoming whilst in the middle of an investigation. No way will they update people on what they know so far. Burleigh obviously sees herself as covering Amanda's back.

Amanda had shared all sorts of information about the murder before she wrote her email to the world at 3:00 am of Sunday just two days after the body being found. She just couldn't resist bragging she knew all about the murder. Her email header claimed she found the body and she was overheard at the Questura bragging to friends and relatives on the phone, 'I found the body'.

Raff to made the same claim to a DAILY MIRROR reporter.

The pair were found guilty of aggravated murder (= murder with rape and sexual assault) by a merits court which was upheld on appeal. Inexplicably, the supreme court freed the pair but didn't declare them innocent by any means.
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Old 20th May 2017, 04:35 AM   #1776
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Burleigh is an active advocate for Knox. At least she's honest enough to say so. Unfortunately she has it arse over tits. There is no way police had asked or even told Amanda Knox anything at all about Mez' injuries. Police are notoriously unforthcoming whilst in the middle of an investigation. No way will they update people on what they know so far. Burleigh obviously sees herself as covering Amanda's back.

Amanda had shared all sorts of information about the murder before she wrote her email to the world at 3:00 am of Sunday just two days after the body being found. She just couldn't resist bragging she knew all about the murder. Her email header claimed she found the body and she was overheard at the Questura bragging to friends and relatives on the phone, 'I found the body'.

Raff to made the same claim to a DAILY MIRROR reporter.

The pair were found guilty of aggravated murder (= murder with rape and sexual assault) by a merits court which was upheld on appeal. Inexplicably, the supreme court freed the pair but didn't declare them innocent by any means.


Oh dear. That's all you've got?
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Old 20th May 2017, 09:16 AM   #1777
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Burleigh is an active advocate for Knox. At least she's honest enough to say so. Unfortunately she has it arse over tits. There is no way police had asked or even told Amanda Knox anything at all about Mez' injuries. Police are notoriously unforthcoming whilst in the middle of an investigation. No way will they update people on what they know so far. Burleigh obviously sees herself as covering Amanda's back.

Amanda had shared all sorts of information about the murder before she wrote her email to the world at 3:00 am of Sunday just two days after the body being found. She just couldn't resist bragging she knew all about the murder. Her email header claimed she found the body and she was overheard at the Questura bragging to friends and relatives on the phone, 'I found the body'.

Raff to made the same claim to a DAILY MIRROR reporter.

The pair were found guilty of aggravated murder (= murder with rape and sexual assault) by a merits court which was upheld on appeal. Inexplicably, the supreme court freed the pair but didn't declare them innocent by any means.
And which court would that be? Massei was overturned by Hellmann, Nencini by Marasca. Neither court was ever upheld on appeal.

And the Marasca court DID declare them innocent. They were acquitted of the crime, with the court concluding there was absolutely no evidence of their involvement with the murder.

As Judge Chamberlain Haller once famously asked... Are you on drugs?
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Old 20th May 2017, 10:31 AM   #1778
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
And which court would that be? Massei was overturned by Hellmann, Nencini by Marasca. Neither court was ever upheld on appeal.
In Vixen's mind Massei was upheld by Nencini. It's a coping mechanism to resolve the cognitive dissonance with denying M&B's authority to judge the merits/evidence while accepting the Chieffi court doing literally the exact same thing. It's actually an impressive contortion.
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Old 20th May 2017, 11:04 AM   #1779
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
And which court would that be? Massei was overturned by Hellmann, Nencini by Marasca. Neither court was ever upheld on appeal.

And the Marasca court DID declare them innocent. They were acquitted of the crime, with the court concluding there was absolutely no evidence of their involvement with the murder.

As Judge Chamberlain Haller once famously asked... Are you on drugs?
The convictions were upheld by Nencini. The word 'innocent' does not appear anywhere in Marasca's reasoning. On the contrary.

Only coffee, tea, salbutamol, clenil modulite and the odd aspirin.
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Old 20th May 2017, 12:25 PM   #1780
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The convictions were upheld by Nencini. The word 'innocent' does not appear anywhere in Marasca's reasoning. On the contrary.

Only coffee, tea, salbutamol, clenil modulite and the odd aspirin.
Yet subsequent courts on peripheral matters referred to the Marasca, final verdict as an absolution - an exoneration. You keep repeating the silliness in your post about every six weeks.
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Old 20th May 2017, 02:08 PM   #1781
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Burleigh is an active advocate for Knox. At least she's honest enough to say so. Unfortunately she has it arse over tits. There is no way police had asked or even told Amanda Knox anything at all about Mez' injuries. Police are notoriously unforthcoming whilst in the middle of an investigation. No way will they update people on what they know so far. Burleigh obviously sees herself as covering Amanda's back.

Amanda had shared all sorts of information about the murder before she wrote her email to the world at 3:00 am of Sunday just two days after the body being found. She just couldn't resist bragging she knew all about the murder. Her email header claimed she found the body and she was overheard at the Questura bragging to friends and relatives on the phone, 'I found the body'.

Raff to made the same claim to a DAILY MIRROR reporter.


The pair were found guilty of aggravated murder (= murder with rape and sexual assault) by a merits court which was upheld on appeal. Inexplicably, the supreme court freed the pair but didn't declare them innocent by any means.
Oh, dear. Here we go again...

Is Marco Zaroli an "advocate" for Knox, too? He clearly testified that Laura and Filomena were asked by the police about Meredith's sex life. I've posted that evidence twice but you ignore it because it doesn't fit your guilt bias.

I see you now have Burleigh "covering for Amanda", too. I guess she's another one that the PR machine-mafia-masons got to? You do realize that Burleigh's book was not very complimentary to Amanda and she is persona non grata to the Knox/Mellas families?

Who has claimed that the police told Amanda about Meredith's injuries? No one. Nor have I, or anyone else, claimed the police "updated" Amanda on "what they knew".You are trying to deflect attention away from the fact that the police asked Amanda about Meredith's sex life and the Vaseline which is to be expected considering the nature of the crime.

There you go again with the "bragging" bit. Informing her friends and family back home what had happened isn't "bragging". She was the one who started the discovery of the murder. And she did find the body along with everyone else in that cottage. If Filomena, Laura, or anyone there other than Raff and Amanda has said they found the body, you'd have absolutely no problem with it. The trouble with such severe confirmation bias and prejudice is that you lose all objectivity and become incapable of seeing anything pertaining to Raff and Amanda as anything other than an indication guilt.

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Old 20th May 2017, 02:17 PM   #1782
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh, dear. Here we go again...

Is Marco Zaroli an "advocate" for Knox, too? He clearly testified that Laura and Filomena were asked by the police about Meredith's sex life. I've posted that evidence twice but you ignore it because it doesn't fit your guilt bias.

I see you now have Burleigh "covering for Amanda", too. I guess she's another one that the PR machine-mafia-masons got to? You do realize that Burleigh's book was not very complimentary to Amanda and she is persona non grata to the Knox/Mellas families?

Who has claimed that the police told Amanda about Meredith's injuries? No one. Nor have I, or anyone else, claimed the police "updated" Amanda on "what they knew".You are trying to deflect attention away from the fact that the police asked Amanda about Meredith's sex life and the Vaseline which is to be expected considering the nature of the crime.

There you go again with the "bragging" bit. Informing her friends and family back home what had happened isn't "bragging". She was the one who started the discovery of the murder. And she did find the body along with everyone else in that cottage. If Filomena, Laura, or anyone there other than Raff and Amanda has said they found the body, you'd have absolutely no problem with it. The trouble with such severe confirmation bias and prejudice is that you lose all objectivity and become incapable of seeing anything pertaining to Raff and Amanda as anything other than an indication guilt.
The police would not have asked leading questions. It would have been in the form of 'tell us about Meredith's boyfriends/social life'.

There is absolutely no way they asked Amanda Knox, 'Did Mez enjoy anal sex?'

We know Knox only included that prurient slur because she and Raff left the empty vaseline tin there, posed with the body.

IOW she was trying to draw attention away from herself by cunning means, whilst at the same time nodding and winking to everyone in her address book her glee at the crime and her insider knowledge of the crime scene.
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Old 20th May 2017, 02:31 PM   #1783
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is absolutely no way they asked Amanda Knox, 'Did Mez enjoy anal sex?'
Evidence?
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Old 20th May 2017, 02:37 PM   #1784
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The police would not have asked leading questions. It would have been in the form of 'tell us about Meredith's boyfriends/social life'.

There is absolutely no way they asked Amanda Knox, 'Did Mez enjoy anal sex?'

We know Knox only included that prurient slur because she and Raff left the empty vaseline tin there, posed with the body.

IOW she was trying to draw attention away from herself by cunning means, whilst at the same time nodding and winking to everyone in her address book her glee at the crime and her insider knowledge of the crime scene.
You assume to know an awful lot about what the police would or wouldn't do or ask. You also assume to know what Amanda's emotions were, what she was thinking, and what her intentions were. You don't.

No, we don't know any such thing. You assume to know things that you couldn't possibly know. How is a jar of Vaseline (commonly used as lip balm) sitting on a person's desk "posed with the body"? If someone truly wanted to pose it with the body, it would have been placed on or by the body.

Your last paragraph is a yet another example of what I meant by severe confirmation bias rendering a person incapable of objectivity and seeing anything other than what fits that bias.
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Old 20th May 2017, 02:41 PM   #1785
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Evidence?
It's common sense.

Say you have a murder victim and the police have a good idea how that person was killed.

They do not go around telling all the suspects and persons of interest what they know.

If they have a sex attack victim that shows signs of anal rape, they certainly do not tell each interviewee in turn at the first opportunity.
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Old 20th May 2017, 02:52 PM   #1786
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's common sense.

Say you have a murder victim and the police have a good idea how that person was killed.

They do not go around telling all the suspects and persons of interest what they know.

If they have a sex attack victim that shows signs of anal rape, they certainly do not tell each interviewee in turn at the first opportunity.
Yeah that's why the police were able to use all this fantastic knowledge Amanda had from her 5000 interrogations and wiretaps to get her. Oh wait

It actually would have been prudent for the police and prosecutor to conduct a professional investigation, hold information close, and not leak to the media left and right, but surprise they were really bad at their job. That's why the case was an international failure and the guy walking around drenched in MK's blood will be out before he's 30 or something like that? and the two other alleged suspects are out period lol.

But these cops weren't in the business of careful police work. They were in the business of quickly identifying suspects and then beating confessions out of them, manufacturing evidence to use as leverage against the suspects to get more confessions. And it would have worked, they almost got all three of their suspects (Amanda, Raff, Patrick) but for one problem - their starting premise that no human would climb a 4 meter wall - turned out to be incorrect. But for that one little detail they probably made some fairly safe followup inferences. But that one turned out to be a biggin, as they had a 4 meter climbing window smashing big rock chucking specialist right in their backyard.

What are the odds that a guy like Rudy Guede would actually exist? Not bloody likely, thought Mignini. But he's real. In the flesh. Oh well.
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Old 20th May 2017, 02:53 PM   #1787
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You assume to know an awful lot about what the police would or wouldn't do or ask. You also assume to know what Amanda's emotions were, what she was thinking, and what her intentions were. You don't.

No, we don't know any such thing. You assume to know things that you couldn't possibly know. How is a jar of Vaseline (commonly used as lip balm) sitting on a person's desk "posed with the body"? If someone truly wanted to pose it with the body, it would have been placed on or by the body.

Your last paragraph is a yet another example of what I meant by severe confirmation bias rendering a person incapable of objectivity and seeing anything other than what fits that bias.
As of the time Amanda wrote her email to the world, the police did not have Lalli's report as to whether or not Mez was raped, so we can be sure Amanda informing the world of 'anal sex' is a facet of her evil disgusting attitude towards her roommate sadly deceased just the day before yesterday, as of the time she wrote it.
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Old 20th May 2017, 02:56 PM   #1788
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's common sense.

Say you have a murder victim and the police have a good idea how that person was killed.

They do not go around telling all the suspects and persons of interest what they know.

If they have a sex attack victim that shows signs of anal rape, they certainly do not tell each interviewee in turn at the first opportunity.
So, no evidence.

The police didn't tell Amanda that Meredith had anal sex. They asked her if Meredith liked it. They were following up on their own suspicions as evidenced by my earlier quotes.
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Old 20th May 2017, 03:04 PM   #1789
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As of the time Amanda wrote her email to the world, the police did not have Lalli's report as to whether or not Mez was raped, so we can be sure Amanda informing the world of 'anal sex' is a facet of her evil disgusting attitude towards her roommate sadly deceased just the day before yesterday, as of the time she wrote it.
Oh, come on. Meredith was found with her jeans and underwear removed, her legs spread apart, her breasts exposed and her hips on a pillow and you want to claim the police didn't think she'd been raped?

And no, neither we nor you can be sure of any such thing. What we can be sure of, considering the amount of evidence provided, is that confirmation bias can be so deeply imbedded in a person that it renders them incapable of seeing anything suspect-related objectively.
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Old 20th May 2017, 03:04 PM   #1790
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So, no evidence.

The police didn't tell Amanda that Meredith had anal sex. They asked her if Meredith liked it. They were following up on their own suspicions as evidenced by my earlier quotes.
As of that time Burleigh had not written her PR.

Nor had they interviewed Marvan, or whatever his name is.

No way was Knox asked any pervy questions by 3 November.
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Old 20th May 2017, 03:08 PM   #1791
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As of that time Burleigh had not written her PR.

Nor had they interviewed Marvan, or whatever his name is.

No way was Knox asked any pervy questions by 3 November.
If they wanted to they could prove it by using the interrogation tapes. Otherwise it's just JRR Tolkien fantasy. Your opinion on what the police would or wouldn't ask is perhaps the least interesting thing in this thread, and I post here

Maybe you can move on to the next (old) topic.
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Old 20th May 2017, 03:09 PM   #1792
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh, come on. Meredith was found with her jeans and underwear removed, her legs spread apart, her breasts exposed and her hips on a pillow and you want to claim the police didn't think she'd been raped?

And no, neither we nor you can be sure of any such thing. What we can be sure of, considering the amount of evidence provided, is that confirmation bias can be so deeply imbedded in a person that it renders them incapable of seeing anything suspect-related objectively.
Sheeesh! What on earth has that got to do with whether or not Mez enjoyed sex or was sexually active.


Amanda Knox including that detail to the world was pure salaciousness on her part. Having desecrated and degraded Mez in death, the next step is to inform people in a round about way that anal sex was involved.

I do not believe for one second the police informed her of this as of 3 Nov 2007.
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Old 20th May 2017, 03:17 PM   #1793
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As of that time Burleigh had not written her PR.

Nor had they interviewed Marvan, or whatever his name is.

No way was Knox asked any pervy questions by 3 November.
Marzan told the police about what Silenzi had said on Nov. 4. But that does not preclude the police already suspecting what the Vaseline they'd seen on the desk may have been used for or from them asking Amanda about it. (edited to correct)

I find it quite interesting that you refer to the police investigating a sexual assault/murder as asking "pervy questions".

Why does the fact that Burleigh had not written her book yet have any relevancy? Neither had Follain or anyone else. Does that make everything in them incorrect?

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Old 20th May 2017, 03:25 PM   #1794
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There are none so blind as those who will not see.......

Once again, we're witnessing extraordinary levels of confirmation bias, false inferences, appeals to incredulity (I do not believe for one second that blah blah blah....) and irrational vigilantism. That's quite some suite of logical fallacies and critical thinking flaws! I wonder if the Perugia department of the Italian State Police is on the lookout for any new recruits.....
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Old 20th May 2017, 03:29 PM   #1795
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As of the time Amanda wrote her email to the world, the police did not have Lalli's report as to whether or not Mez was raped, so we can be sure Amanda informing the world of 'anal sex' is a facet of her evil disgusting attitude towards her roommate sadly deceased just the day before yesterday, as of the time she wrote it.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh, come on. Meredith was found with her jeans and underwear removed, her legs spread apart, her breasts exposed and her hips on a pillow and you want to claim the police didn't think she'd been raped?

And no, neither we nor you can be sure of any such thing. What we can be sure of, considering the amount of evidence provided, is that confirmation bias can be so deeply imbedded in a person that it renders them incapable of seeing anything suspect-related objectively.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sheeesh! What on earth has that got to do with whether or not Mez enjoyed sex or was sexually active.


Amanda Knox including that detail to the world was pure salaciousness on her part. Having desecrated and degraded Mez in death, the next step is to inform people in a round about way that anal sex was involved.

I do not believe for one second the police informed her of this as of 3 Nov 2007.
Sheeeesh! You said that the police didn't have the autopsy so didn't know that Meredith had been raped. I pointed out that the physical evidence observed by the police was more than ample to indicate she had been raped. As for why the police asked if Meredith was sexually active or enjoyed anal sex, we've been over this umpteen times. Filomena and Laura were also asked about Meredith's sex life as testified to by Zaroli. Why do you insist on denying the police were asking about it? On second thought, I know the reason; severe confirmation bias. It renders a person incapable of believing anything that does not fit that bias even if the evidence indicates otherwise.

So, don't believe it. It doesn't make it any less true.

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Old 20th May 2017, 03:47 PM   #1796
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
Yeah that's why the police were able to use all this fantastic knowledge Amanda had from her 5000 interrogations and wiretaps to get her. Oh wait

It actually would have been prudent for the police and prosecutor to conduct a professional investigation, hold information close, and not leak to the media left and right, but surprise they were really bad at their job. That's why the case was an international failure and the guy walking around drenched in MK's blood will be out before he's 30 or something like that? and the two other alleged suspects are out period lol.

But these cops weren't in the business of careful police work. They were in the business of quickly identifying suspects and then beating confessions out of them, manufacturing evidence to use as leverage against the suspects to get more confessions. And it would have worked, they almost got all three of their suspects (Amanda, Raff, Patrick) but for one problem - their starting premise that no human would climb a 4 meter wall - turned out to be incorrect. But for that one little detail they probably made some fairly safe followup inferences. But that one turned out to be a biggin, as they had a 4 meter climbing window smashing big rock chucking specialist right in their backyard.

What are the odds that a guy like Rudy Guede would actually exist? Not bloody likely, thought Mignini. But he's real. In the flesh. Oh well.

The goons and thugs in the Perugia State Police (aided and abetted by the likes of Mignini) had, IMO, a very well-practised routine for "solving" crimes. The routine - which was extremely well choreographed and finely-honed - revolved around the combination of self-incrimination, extracted confessions, "grassing up" in return for favours of some kind, and (in the case of multiple perpetrator crimes) the breaking of one of the perps and the turning of that perp against the other(s).

So once a serious crime was committed (to take the Kercher murder investigation out of the picture for a moment, let's imagine we're talking about a robbery of a bank by three individuals armed with handguns), the police would place phone taps (usually unlawful) on everyone whom they thought might possibly be involved in some way. They would have armies of people listening to the taps, looking for self-incrimination or incrimination. They would go to their extensive networks of informants, against whom the police probably had significant evidence of criminal activity - to be used if the informant didn't "co-operate" by grassing up. And through those two methods, they'd identify A, B and C as the likely perps. They'd probably look for the weakest link of the three (say, B). And they'd bring B in, and use *special* interrogation techniques if necessary to force B into a confession and accusation against A and C. The PM would then come in and tidy everything up nicely from an admissibility point of view, by extracting "spontaneous declarations" from all three. Bingo!

Now, some of this is perfectly acceptable law enforcement work - at least in principle. Where it seriously crosses the line into unlawful and unethical activity is in the likes of the mass phone taps and the ways in which people would be made to "buckle" (as de Felice so memorably and charmingly put it). But I believe that this system was simply the way in which the State Police operated. They knew no other way. For them, things like forensic evidence were nothing more than a nice bolt-on: to add a little extra confirmatory "garnish" to the confession/accusation-based case they already had. And in what passed for the Italian criminal justice system - even long beyond the time when the inquisitorial system was done away with - confessions were pretty much the be-all and end-all. If a person had confessed, well it was game over, wasn't it? Why would a person confess if he/she hadn't actually committed the crime?

And this antediluvian methodology was, predictably, the go-to route for the Perugia state goons when their department got assigned the Kercher murder. Which is how and why they backed themselves into a corner of their own making, when they used improper and unlawful techniques to force Knox (and, to some extent, Sollecito too) into false confessions and accusations. They simply didn't know how to react when the first pieces of forensic evidence to come back didn't tally with the case they thought they'd "solved". And they reacted by starting to pile malpractice onto malpractice in their suspect-centric fishing trips for incriminating forensic evidence on the likes of the kitchen knife, the bra clasp, the shoe prints and foot prints, and the other blood evidence.

And the rest is history.
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Old 20th May 2017, 03:49 PM   #1797
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Mignini, referring to the police said:

Quote:
From the beginning, when they saw the body, what they found on the crime scene, no bra, the shirt pulled up, it was clear there was a sexual imprint on it. The bra straps that were cut. And they thought it was one or more people. Then there’s a Vaseline jar on the desk. Open.
Once again, it's clear it was the police who assumed the Vaseline was connected to the rape and murder and who would, logically, have asked her friends about it.
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Old 20th May 2017, 03:52 PM   #1798
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Mignini, referring to the police said:



Once again, it's clear it was the police who assumed the Vaseline was connected to the rape and murder and who would, logically, have asked her friends about it.

I love the Holmes-esque brilliance of "they thought it was one or more people (who had carried out the attack/murder)".

And there was I thinking it could have been the work of none or fewer people..........
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Old 20th May 2017, 04:08 PM   #1799
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I love the Holmes-esque brilliance of "they thought it was one or more people (who had carried out the attack/murder)".

And there was I thinking it could have been the work of none or fewer people..........
Don't make me spit out a perfectly acceptable pinot grigio all over my keyboard.
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Old 20th May 2017, 05:09 PM   #1800
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Sheeeesh! You said that the police didn't have the autopsy so didn't know that Meredith had been raped. I pointed out that the physical evidence observed by the police was more than ample to indicate she had been raped. As for why the police asked if Meredith was sexually active or enjoyed anal sex, we've been over this umpteen times. Filomena and Laura were also asked about Meredith's sex life as testified to by Zaroli. Why do you insist on denying the police were asking about it? On second thought, I know the reason; severe confirmation bias. It renders a person incapable of believing anything that does not fit that bias even if the evidence indicates otherwise.

So, don't believe it. It doesn't make it any less true.

The police saw the position of the body and the surrounding crime scene.

AMANDA KNOX DID NOT.

Her reference to Mez' sex life was her allusion to knowing all about the crime scene, as well as degrading the victim.

There is no way the cops described the crime scene to Knox or asked her if Mez liked anal sex as of within a day of the murder.

The vaseline jar being empty is hers and Raff's little joke. How would he know whether her body was covered with vaseline or not? Clearly he wants the listener to make note of the empty tin.
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