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Old 12th May 2017, 08:45 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
I don't think that anything about that match was 'bullshido' in the way that the no-touch jazz is. The Tai Chi guy (Wei) was just wildly outclassed by the MMA guy (Xu). No BS involved, just a mismatch in skills. Be interesting if Xu takes on some of the legitimate traditional practitioners that are now taking numbers to accept his challenge.
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Old 12th May 2017, 10:55 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I don't think that anything about that match was 'bullshido' in the way that the no-touch jazz is. The Tai Chi guy (Wei) was just wildly outclassed by the MMA guy (Xu). No BS involved, just a mismatch in skills. Be interesting if Xu takes on some of the legitimate traditional practitioners that are now taking numbers to accept his challenge.

The cornerstone of most bullshido is self-delusion. This automatically results in "a mismatch of skills" whenever said skills are tested effectively. The bullshido in this case only lies in the fact that the Tai Chi guy was self-deluded enough to consider that his own expertise in a nice form of low impact exercise lent him enough competence in hand to hand combat to fare acceptably against someone who actually sparred against uncooperative partners on a regular basis. That is enough.

When the bullshido wanders on into no-touch territory it only exacerbates the mismatch in skills because the effective skill set on one side is "I must moderate how I project my chi lest I kill my opponent" (the thought that they may have to lay hands on their opponent not even crossing their mind) whereas the other side will have a whole range of actual physical skills at their disposal.

It's a matter of degree. Of course, looking at people who think they can engage in a combat sport without touching is usually more comical.
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Old 12th May 2017, 11:08 PM   #163
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So how do you defend yourself against a Banana-Fiend?
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Old 12th May 2017, 11:53 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
The cornerstone of most bullshido is self-delusion. This automatically results in "a mismatch of skills" whenever said skills are tested effectively. The bullshido in this case only lies in the fact that the Tai Chi guy was self-deluded enough to consider that his own expertise in a nice form of low impact exercise lent him enough competence in hand to hand combat to fare acceptably against someone who actually sparred against uncooperative partners on a regular basis. That is enough.

When the bullshido wanders on into no-touch territory it only exacerbates the mismatch in skills because the effective skill set on one side is "I must moderate how I project my chi lest I kill my opponent" (the thought that they may have to lay hands on their opponent not even crossing their mind) whereas the other side will have a whole range of actual physical skills at their disposal.

It's a matter of degree. Of course, looking at people who think they can engage in a combat sport without touching is usually more comical.
Guess I never heard the word used that way. I've only ever heard it used in the sense of deliberately fraudulent martial arts, rather than self-delusion.
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Old 13th May 2017, 12:58 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Fantastic. Best video I've seen for ages.
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Old 13th May 2017, 09:13 AM   #166
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There's a lot of claim and counter claim about Xu but the concensus among the Chen tai chi guys I know seems to be he has a point and the Chen guys are being protected now by the Chinese government as they are a commercial success. They now charge several thousand dollars to "bai shi" and be accepted as disciples of the Chen lineage.
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Old 14th May 2017, 01:19 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
The cornerstone of most bullshido is self-delusion. This automatically results in "a mismatch of skills" whenever said skills are tested effectively. The bullshido in this case only lies in the fact that the Tai Chi guy was self-deluded enough to consider that his own expertise in a nice form of low impact exercise lent him enough competence in hand to hand combat to fare acceptably against someone who actually sparred against uncooperative partners on a regular basis. That is enough.

When the bullshido wanders on into no-touch territory it only exacerbates the mismatch in skills because the effective skill set on one side is "I must moderate how I project my chi lest I kill my opponent" (the thought that they may have to lay hands on their opponent not even crossing their mind) whereas the other side will have a whole range of actual physical skills at their disposal.

It's a matter of degree. Of course, looking at people who think they can engage in a combat sport without touching is usually more comical.
Actually, Tai Chi is a very effecitve form of self-defence- the "low-impact exercise" is just one part of it. It is also not necessary to use, rely on or even believe in chi for it to be effective.
I know: I've used it myself to defend myself.
Here's an example from Chinese TV of Tai Chi vs kung fu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylVvk52Wbd0
I think the difference now is that MMA is a relavtively recent phenomenon, and Tai Chi, as with many traditional martial arts, has failed to evolve to keep up. That said, there's nothing especially new about what the MMA guy did. If the Tai Chi fighter was unable to defend himself against someone running at him and throwing punches, he can't have been that good. I was expectiing the MMA fighter to shoot: this is the usual way MMA triumphs over the traditional martial arts, which lack techniques to deal with this form of attack (although this is beginning to change).
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Old 14th May 2017, 02:21 AM   #168
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There's an article here describing strength training in Chen tai chi.
On one of the groups I belong to the comment that summed it up for me was "Probably not a good idea that the first time you get punched in the face is on live tv". There's no excuse for not being able to take a hit.
The best compliment I had as a tai chi teacher was a couple of guys serving with Royal Marine Commando trained with me because they "enjoyed the workout". Like any MA you get out what you put in.
On the wall of my home gym I used to have a quote from someone on rec.martial-arts many years ago "We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training."
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Old 14th May 2017, 03:29 AM   #169
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I think the reason why in fights between MMA fighters and practitioners of single forms of Chinese martial arts is simply because the whole concept of MMA is to take all the most effective bits of all the martial arts in existence and combine them into one martial art. So an MMA fighter is necessarily going to be more effective than a practitioner of equal skill of a single martial art because the MMA fighter will know all the best bits of his/her opponent's martial art, plus the best bits of martial arts that his/her opponent doesn't know.

That said, this particular video only shows the weakness of the Tai Chi guy. The MMA guy didn't do anything that a boxer couldn't do. He just walked towards him punching. If your technique isn't good enough that you can defend against someone trying to punch you in the face, then it's not good enough for anything.
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Old 14th May 2017, 03:50 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Actually, Tai Chi is a very effecitve form of self-defence- the "low-impact exercise" is just one part of it.
I'm sure it can be, although this incident didn't demonstrate it.
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Old 14th May 2017, 05:32 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I think the reason why in fights between MMA fighters and practitioners of single forms of Chinese martial arts is simply because the whole concept of MMA is to take all the most effective bits of all the martial arts in existence and combine them into one martial art. So an MMA fighter is necessarily going to be more effective than a practitioner of equal skill of a single martial art because the MMA fighter will know all the best bits of his/her opponent's martial art, plus the best bits of martial arts that his/her opponent doesn't know.

That said, this particular video only shows the weakness of the Tai Chi guy. The MMA guy didn't do anything that a boxer couldn't do. He just walked towards him punching. If your technique isn't good enough that you can defend against someone trying to punch you in the face, then it's not good enough for anything.
Originally Posted by John Nowak View Post
I'm sure it can be, although this incident didn't demonstrate it.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Actually, Tai Chi is a very effecitve form of self-defence- the "low-impact exercise" is just one part of it. It is also not necessary to use, rely on or even believe in chi for it to be effective.
I know: I've used it myself to defend myself.
Here's an example from Chinese TV of Tai Chi vs kung fu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylVvk52Wbd0
I think the difference now is that MMA is a relavtively recent phenomenon, and Tai Chi, as with many traditional martial arts, has failed to evolve to keep up. That said, there's nothing especially new about what the MMA guy did. If the Tai Chi fighter was unable to defend himself against someone running at him and throwing punches, he can't have been that good. I was expectiing the MMA fighter to shoot: this is the usual way MMA triumphs over the traditional martial arts, which lack techniques to deal with this form of attack (although this is beginning to change).
Kind of said this already.
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Old 14th May 2017, 06:09 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
There's an article here describing strength training in Chen tai chi.
On one of the groups I belong to the comment that summed it up for me was "Probably not a good idea that the first time you get punched in the face is on live tv". There's no excuse for not being able to take a hit.
The best compliment I had as a tai chi teacher was a couple of guys serving with Royal Marine Commando trained with me because they "enjoyed the workout". Like any MA you get out what you put in.
On the wall of my home gym I used to have a quote from someone on rec.martial-arts many years ago "We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training."
Effective training theory in a nutshell.
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Old 14th May 2017, 06:29 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Kind of said this already.
This. Xu just bulldozed, and Lei made the fatal flaw of retreating backwards quickly and tripping over his own feet. Should have sidestepped, or actually anything else. This didn't compare Tai Chi v MMA, it compared two fighters at one time and place.
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Old 15th May 2017, 01:15 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
This. Xu just bulldozed, and Lei made the fatal flaw of retreating backwards quickly and tripping over his own feet. Should have sidestepped, or actually anything else. This didn't compare Tai Chi v MMA, it compared two fighters at one time and place.
Do you feel that a if someone trained ballet effectively, that they could be a good enough fighter to beat the MMA guy?
Most of what is taught as Tai Chi is a slow dance, which is good exercise, but not fight training at all.

Yea yea, there are people that train Tai Chi combatively, but that is rare. Maybe there should be a different name for the Tai Chi that is taught to old people in parks and Tai Chi that is taught as self-defense/fighting.
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Old 15th May 2017, 02:17 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Howie Felterbush View Post
Student: More ice for your nose, Sensei?

Sensei (muffled by bloody handkerchief): shut up and drive
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Old 15th May 2017, 06:21 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Do you feel that a if someone trained ballet effectively, that they could be a good enough fighter to beat the MMA guy?
Of course not. People doing the Tai Chi form are not preparing for combat any more than a ballerina is. They are doing the meditation-in-motion thing.

Quote:
Most of what is taught as Tai Chi is a slow dance, which is good exercise, but not fight training at all.

Yea yea, there are people that train Tai Chi combatively, but that is rare. Maybe there should be a different name for the Tai Chi that is taught to old people in parks and Tai Chi that is taught as self-defense/fighting.
There is, it's specifically called learning the Tai Chi form (long or short) but I think that is what many people think Tai Chi exclusively is. On its own, probably not gonna do much for your combat skills, much like a cardio kickboxing workout set to music will not ready you for a match either.

Pretty sure the Tai Chi guy (Lei) in this video was training the full art, not just the form. I also don't think anyone in China, where the fight took place, thought that Lei just trained the form. Maybe it's a Western misconception that Tai Chi is assumed to be just a meditative form? It's fine for what it is, but I really don't think anyone practicing it thinks they have developed combat prowess.
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Old 16th May 2017, 09:12 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Maybe there should be a different name for the Tai Chi that is taught to old people in parks
chi kung (qi gong)?
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Old 16th May 2017, 10:37 AM   #178
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Wei Lei's win rate = ZERO. It's hard to feel sorry for the man.
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Old 16th May 2017, 04:24 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
chi kung (qi gong)?
Qi gong and T'ai chi are different things.

...which I realise was kind of the point, but stlll. They're different different things.
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Old 16th May 2017, 09:09 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
chi kung (qi gong)?
Isn't that the nonsense where they practice "chi manipulation" to become tougher or have superpowers?
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Old 16th May 2017, 11:59 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Isn't that the nonsense where they practice "chi manipulation" to become tougher or have superpowers?
In its most extreme form, yes. More commonly, it is simply a form of meditation.
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Old 17th May 2017, 02:26 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Of course not. People doing the Tai Chi form are not preparing for combat any more than a ballerina is. They are doing the meditation-in-motion thing.



There is, it's specifically called learning the Tai Chi form (long or short) but I think that is what many people think Tai Chi exclusively is. On its own, probably not gonna do much for your combat skills, much like a cardio kickboxing workout set to music will not ready you for a match either.

Pretty sure the Tai Chi guy (Lei) in this video was training the full art, not just the form. I also don't think anyone in China, where the fight took place, thought that Lei just trained the form. Maybe it's a Western misconception that Tai Chi is assumed to be just a meditative form? It's fine for what it is, but I really don't think anyone practicing it thinks they have developed combat prowess.
Yup. The form is largely for meditation and health. The applications of the form are for combat. Both were covered in the Tai Chi classes I went to. I had three different instructors althogether, and they all did this. In my own experience, then, just learning the form is in a minority, not a majority, of classes.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:17 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
In its most extreme form, yes. More commonly, it is simply a form of meditation.
Sort of,it's a meld of dao yin and tu na. Stretching and directed breathing if I recall correctly and both go way back. I am told most qi gong sets were invented in the last 20 years.

eta: Qi gong is sort of a fuzzy term, like "organic farming", "toxins" and so on. Easier to market rubbish that way.
Several CMAs have "nei gong" (internal strength) sets that can involve hard work and usually are meant to build what we'd call core strength in most cases. The set I know best for example is built around lots of unloaded squats and works up a good sweat.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:08 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Sort of,it's a meld of dao yin and tu na.

Tu na? Sounds fishy to me.
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Old 17th May 2017, 11:01 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Sort of,it's a meld of dao yin and tu na. Stretching and directed breathing if I recall correctly and both go way back. I am told most qi gong sets were invented in the last 20 years.
I was practicing qi gong more than 20 years ago. The t'ai chi school I was frequenting also taught qi gong.

Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
eta: Qi gong is sort of a fuzzy term, like "organic farming", "toxins" and so on. Easier to market rubbish that way.
I don't think this is wrong. However, I was learning specific meditations, eg. standing tree posture. The school I was attending had a pretty specific operational definition about what qi gong was.
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Old 18th May 2017, 12:02 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I was practicing qi gong more than 20 years ago. The t'ai chi school I was frequenting also taught qi gong.
Damn, it's been about 20 years I was told that. Age. Just yesterday I said on a friends FB page "Do you look at someone's birthdate and think "they're still in kindergarten. Wait. It's 2017 so 17 plus.... oh right they're in their 30s"."
Quote:
I don't think this is wrong. However, I was learning specific meditations, eg. standing tree posture. The school I was attending had a pretty specific operational definition about what qi gong was.
I don't say everything that is labelled Qi gong is necessarily fake, just to be cautious. As well as the nei kung of my own style for instance I do the basic qi gongs of Yi Quan which have very specific aims in their original context. However even in the founder Wang Xiangzhai's life people were already claiming it developed magic powers. A goodly number of the Qi gongs I've seen have specific problems, especially for potential knee strain like some Falun Gong I saw a while back.
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Old 18th May 2017, 12:58 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Damn, it's been about 20 years I was told that. Age. Just yesterday I said on a friends FB page "Do you look at someone's birthdate and think "they're still in kindergarten. Wait. It's 2017 so 17 plus.... oh right they're in their 30s"."
Oh hell yeah. My son's turning 21 next month. I was changing his nappies just last Wednesday!

Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I don't say everything that is labelled Qi gong is necessarily fake, just to be cautious. As well as the nei kung of my own style for instance I do the basic qi gongs of Yi Quan which have very specific aims in their original context. However even in the founder Wang Xiangzhai's life people were already claiming it developed magic powers. A goodly number of the Qi gongs I've seen have specific problems, especially for potential knee strain like some Falun Gong I saw a while back.
You have more experience than I do, so I bow to your authority on the subject.
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Old 18th May 2017, 01:55 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Guess I never heard the word used that way. I've only ever heard it used in the sense of deliberately fraudulent martial arts, rather than self-delusion.
There are plenty of Bullshido practitioners who somehow convince themselves they are actually dangerous, and can teach paying customers how to defend themselves. I think anyone who believes a gentle form of upright Yoga can defeat someone who actually gets into fights qualifies.
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Old 18th May 2017, 04:42 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh hell yeah. My son's turning 21 next month. I was changing his nappies just last Wednesday!
High time to get him potty-trained, then!

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Old 19th May 2017, 05:40 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
There are plenty of Bullshido practitioners who somehow convince themselves they are actually dangerous, and can teach paying customers how to defend themselves. I think anyone who believes a gentle form of upright Yoga can defeat someone who actually gets into fights qualifies.
Yes and no. Tai chi is more than just the slow motion form. As posted above by Wudang and Cosmic Yak, the form is one thing and can be practiced as a stand-alone exercise. The full traditional art of Tai chi employs more conventional martial arts training.

My Wing Chun instructor also teaches Tai chi and Qi gong. Most of those students are in it for the mystical (or whatever) benefits as opposed to developing fighting skills, although he teaches them too. He says that a lot of Qi gong is just learning how to pull up and focus all the power you have (especially reserve strength you may not have even known about). Some people 'get it' better by mystifying it as 'summoning chi'. Others get it by just calling it focus or 'taking off the brakes'. I think that a lot of talk about chi is just a new-agey way of learning how to focus everything ya gots at will. The no-touch stuff is largely bovine feces, with the possible exception of advanced Aikidoka who have timing down so exquisitely that some can literally make you fall without touching you (been there ).
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Old 19th May 2017, 06:17 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
FTFY
From what I have seen it's a combination of "don't want to make Sifu look a fool" and "I don't want to look the odd one out" - so they play along to start with. It then becomes a reflex action, I do this hand gesture and someone falls down. The guy on the street after your wallet, however, hasn't attended the same lessons as you and . . . . . .

The guy on the street won't even give you time to put the funky, white pajamas on.
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Old 19th May 2017, 06:39 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The guy on the street won't even give you time to put the funky, white pajamas on.
Real scrappers don't roll with the PJs anymore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4oZvimEuVA
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Old 19th May 2017, 11:43 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
This. Xu just bulldozed, and Lei made the fatal flaw of retreating backwards quickly and tripping over his own feet. Should have sidestepped, or actually anything else. This didn't compare Tai Chi v MMA, it compared two fighters at one time and place.
Until TMA starts getting a few wins and quits tripping over their own feat, I think we can say we are no longer dealing with just two fighters at one time and place.
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Old 19th May 2017, 04:08 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
...with the possible exception of advanced Aikidoka who have timing down so exquisitely that some can literally make you fall without touching you (been there ).
I'd like to hear more about this.
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Old 20th May 2017, 12:17 AM   #195
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Not aikido but systema here. You may need an FB account to view
https://www.facebook.com/dumbassmart...8307715358445/
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Old 20th May 2017, 01:22 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
The no-touch stuff is largely bovine feces, with the possible exception of advanced Aikidoka who have timing down so exquisitely that some can literally make you fall without touching you (been there ).
I've seen NBA players do that hundreds of times; most of them aren't even novice Aikidoka.
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Old 20th May 2017, 01:25 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'd like to hear more about this.
I used to do it to guys in flag football all the time. Zero Aikido training.
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Old 20th May 2017, 04:26 AM   #198
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"Breath throws" and similarly esoteric techniques are very similar to the jukes and fake-outs seen in ball sports and are (IMO) more likely to be reliably performed in those martial arts that prioritize notions of formal style and hierarchy. This is probably the best online discussion of the actual, physical and psychological dynamics involved.
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Old 20th May 2017, 07:45 AM   #199
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Some interesting links in there but rather than the Milgram experiments I usually suggest people look at Solomon Asch's conformity experiments. More work has been done since of course but it's a fascinating area of study.
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Old 20th May 2017, 08:21 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Until TMA starts getting a few wins and quits tripping over their own feat, I think we can say we are no longer dealing with just two fighters at one time and place.
Disagreed: every fight is about two fighters and their respective abilities at one time and place.

Also, what is MMA? Mixed martial arts, applied to the ring fighting. Of course it's effective, that's what it is designed for. Is it ideal for self-defense/combat? Not really. Self-defense techniques tend to be very nasty and unsportsmanlike, and most grappling leaves you wide open to your attacker's buddy/buddies (I think street fights are only rarely one-on-one). So how exactly is MMA superior? Because it does what it is designed to do well? Ok, TMA do what they are designed to do well, too: overall well-being and practical self-defense as opposed to cage matches. It's really an apples and oranges comparison. Both can be effectively be used for health and self-defense, but I don't get the point of saying MMA are superior...in an MMA style match.
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