ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , lying charges , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

Closed Thread
Old 22nd March 2017, 01:48 PM   #161
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,075
Rep Schiff is going to have his own press conference at 5PM to respond to Nunes' insanity. Hopefully he calls for an independent commission after Nunes' antics.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2017, 01:58 PM   #162
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 12,438
Trump ex-aide Paul Manafort 'offered to help Putin'

BBC coverage

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39350007
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2017, 02:59 PM   #163
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,075
Whoa!
.@RepAdamSchiff on Trump/Russia connection: "There is more than circumstantial evidence now...and is very much worthy of investigation."
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2017, 03:15 PM   #164
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,075
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Video.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2017, 03:17 PM   #165
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 5,478
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Wow. Watergatish.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2017, 03:20 PM   #166
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,075
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Wow. Watergatish.
Worse. Watergate didn't involve an adversarial foreign government just paranoid Nixon's machinations.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2017, 03:23 PM   #167
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 5,478
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Worse. Watergate didn't involve an adversarial foreign government just paranoid Nixon's machinations.
I honestly can imagine an enormous amount of jockeying at all levels of power in anticipation of who will impose the narrative, one based on fact or on fancy. At this juncture, if buried/mishandled, it will flag the end of an era.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2017, 04:19 PM   #168
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,354
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
But the bottom line is, Trump is POTUS and that's a disaster. Whether or not Russia gets a direct quid pro quo is background noise at this point.
My thoughts exactly. Putin can contrast "the US in disarray" with a stable Russia under his managed democracy, and portray Trump as the US's Yeltsin.

Trump's problem is, for this to work best, Russia's involvement with the election and with Trump has to be pretty manifest to investigators. They'll deny but they've little reason to conceal.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2017, 05:27 PM   #169
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 64,749
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Worse. Watergate didn't involve an adversarial foreign government just paranoid Nixon's machinations.
If it turns out that there's fire to all this smoke, it could turn out to be the worst politican scandal in US history. Ish.
__________________
"Yes. But we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack!"
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2017, 05:48 PM   #170
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,916
Don't know if this was posted, it's 5 days old but I heard it discussed on the news today on Manafort:

Russian elite invested nearly $100 million in Trump buildings
Quote:
But in the United States, members of the Russian elite have invested in Trump buildings. A Reuters review has found that at least 63 individuals with Russian passports or addresses have bought at least $98.4 million worth of property in seven Trump-branded luxury towers in southern Florida, according to public documents, interviews and corporate records.

The buyers include politically connected businessmen, such as a former executive in a Moscow-based state-run construction firm that works on military and intelligence facilities, the founder of a St. Petersburg investment bank and the co-founder of a conglomerate with interests in banking, property and electronics.

People from the second and third tiers of Russian power have invested in the Trump buildings as well. One recently posted a photo of himself with the leader of a Russian motorcycle gang that was sanctioned by the United States for its alleged role in Moscow’s seizure of Crimea.

On another front, once again, if there is nothing here, why did Spicer lie about how involved Manafort was during the campaign? Do these guys forget all those sound bites are out there?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2017, 06:17 PM   #171
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,075
Holy ******

Quote:
The FBI has information that indicates associates of President Donald Trump communicated with suspected Russian operatives to possibly coordinate the release of information damaging to Hillary Clinton's campaign, US officials told CNN.

This is partly what FBI Director James Comey was referring to when he made a bombshell announcement Monday before Congress that the FBI is investigating the Trump campaign's ties to Russia, according to one source.

The FBI is now reviewing that information, which includes human intelligence, travel, business and phone records and accounts of in-person meetings, according to those U.S. officials. The information is raising the suspicions of FBI counterintelligence investigators that the coordination may have taken place, though officials cautioned that the information was not conclusive and that the investigation is ongoing.

...

One law enforcement official said the information in hand suggests "people connected to the campaign were in contact and it appeared they were giving the thumbs up to release information when it was ready." But other U.S. officials who spoke to CNN say it's premature to draw that inference from the information gathered so far since it's largely circumstantial.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2017, 08:21 PM   #172
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 10,280
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
The Dem's Benghazi!!!!!!!
No, Benghazi was a steaming load of BS from the word go. Whereas we're watching historical events here. Fasten your seat belt.

I never thought I'd say it, but maybe you should stick with the emoticons. This would spare you from posting fantastically asinine things.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 03:49 AM   #173
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 64,749
Remember back in the early days of the Obama presidency when people like Glenn Beck constantly made allusions to Czars and Oligarchs, trying desperately to paint Obama as Stalin or something communist or Russian?

How ironic that's become.
__________________
"Yes. But we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack!"
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 03:59 AM   #174
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,134
Originally Posted by seayakin View Post
I was talking to my wife about some this. I wonder if the Republicans would ever consider impeaching Trump if enough Russian connections are proven. I assume yes but I am wondering how much proof would be needed before enough would support a impeachment proceeding. Right now we have heard about various circumstantial proof and serious problems with individuals connected with the campaign but it seems there has not been enough presented to decide anything further.

This of course is a hypothetical at this point.
Enough proof to give them a very clear choice: impeach Trump or else suffer a catastrophic defeat in the midterm elections.

It could be he will be forced off the presidency before that.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7639341.html

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 04:00 AM   #175
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,075
FBI’s Russian-influence probe includes a look at Breitbart, InfoWars news sites

Quote:
Russia also used “trolls,” hundreds of computer operatives who pretended to be Trump supporters and posted stories or comments on the internet complimentary to Trump or disparaging to Clinton. Sources close to the inquiry said those operatives likely worked from a facility in St. Petersburg, Russia, dedicated to that tactic.

“Russian bots and internet trolls sought to propagate stories underground,” said Mike Carpenter, a former senior Pentagon official during the Obama administration whose job focused on Russia. “Those stories got amplified by fringe elements of our media like Breitbart.”

“They very carefully timed release of information to shift the news cycle away from stories that clearly hurt Mr. Trump, such as his inappropriate conduct over the years,” he said, referring to the October release of a video in which Trump bragged about grabbing women’s genitals. That event corresponded with a surge in bot-related traffic spreading anti-Clinton stories.

An additional Russian tool was the news from its prime propaganda machine, Russia Today, with a global television and digital media operation and a U.S. arm, RT America.
Helps explain this timing:

Oct. 7, 2016 - 4:03 PM: WaPo tweets Access Hollywood video
Oct. 7, 2016 - 4:32 PM: WikiLeaks tweets first round of Podesta emails
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 04:02 AM   #176
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 5,478
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Remember back in the early days of the Obama presidency when people like Glenn Beck constantly made allusions to Czars and Oligarchs, trying desperately to paint Obama as Stalin or something communist or Russian?

How ironic that's become.
That flags a desperately poor situation; namely, that so few citizens are even in touch with what those words, or democracy, actually mean. The only reason the right continues to use democratic language is that it needs the buzzwords that still carry positive connotation and can be misused to fire up the tribal loyalty response. The policies themselves have no honor and are disloyal. Lynch mobbing feels good, and that is quite enough for today's GOP to be in power. Sad.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 08:19 AM   #177
Grizzly Bear
このマスクによっ
 
Grizzly Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,764
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
True, albeit a CT with a lot of circumstantial evidence.

Explain then why Trump flat out lied about his relationship with Putin. Why Trump flat out lied about his role in GOP platform concerning Ukraine. Why Manafort flat out lied about his/Trump role in GOP platform. Why Flynn flat out lied about his Russian contacts. Why Trump lied by omission about Flynn's contacts. Why Sessions flat out lied about his Russian contacts. Why Carter Page flat out lied about his Russian contacts. Why various campaign officials lied about Page's relationship with the campaign. Why Roger Stone flat out lied about his Russian contacts. Why Trump is pretending that Manafort was minimally involved in the campaign.

In the world I live in, the reason people lie is to conceal the truth. Can you explain these lies?

And simultaneously, Trump tosses Ukraine under the bus, defies generations of policy concerning Russia, thumbs his nose at NATO, kisses Putin's ass at every opportunity, and openly encourages Russia to persist with their meddling.

This is not the entirety of the circumstantial evidence mind you.
And do you want to explain why democrats focus not on this, but on a fantasy they concocted about Russia directly influencing the US elections? The media issuing click bait headlines that were refuted by intel? Im not saying all of your concerns of the matter are invalid. But for all of the ridicule over things like Trump accusing the Obama administration spying on Trump Tower, they seem to have some kind of information ehich had to come from somewhere. I'm disgusted with Trump as it is... the media is absolute bullcrap though undeserving of trust and justifying trumps' rhetoric concerning fake news.

The current state of politics in this country along with the press is utterly shameful
__________________

Last edited by Grizzly Bear; 23rd March 2017 at 08:21 AM.
Grizzly Bear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 08:21 AM   #178
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 64,749
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
And do you want to explain why democrats focus not on this, but on a fantasy they concocted about Russia directly influencing the US elections?
How is it a fantasy?
__________________
"Yes. But we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack!"
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 08:25 AM   #179
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,569
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How is it a fantasy?
I'd say it's pretty much historical fact that they at least tried to do so. The question is, how involved was the Trump campaign, and Trump himself?

ETA: Although, I believe Grizzly Bear is trying to create a semantic deflection using the word "directly".
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

Last edited by uke2se; 23rd March 2017 at 08:27 AM.
uke2se is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 08:34 AM   #180
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 64,749
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'd say it's pretty much historical fact that they at least tried to do so.
Yes, and it's quite a useless bit of nitpicking to claim that their actual, known attempt at affecting the US elections didn't have any effect whatsoever. Of course it did. That's influence. And even if it didn't, they still tried, which counts as an attack, one in which the question is now: did Trump and his people assist them?
__________________
"Yes. But we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack!"
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 08:35 AM   #181
Grizzly Bear
このマスクによっ
 
Grizzly Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,764
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
ETA: Although, I believe Grizzly Bear is trying to create a semantic deflection using the word "directly".
“We did not include any evidence in our report, and I say, ‘our,’ that’s NSA, FBI and CIA, with my office, the Director of National Intelligence, that had anything, that had any reflection of collusion between members of the Trump campaign and the Russians,” Clapper said. “There was no evidence of that included in our report.”..... “at the time, we had no evidence of such collusion.”

-Clapper

No semantics. Just going by what former heads of intel have stated.
__________________
Grizzly Bear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 08:41 AM   #182
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 64,749
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
“We did not include any evidence in our report, and I say, ‘our,’ that’s NSA, FBI and CIA, with my office, the Director of National Intelligence, that had anything, that had any reflection of collusion between members of the Trump campaign and the Russians,” Clapper said. “There was no evidence of that included in our report.”..... “at the time, we had no evidence of such collusion.”

-Clapper

No semantics. Just going by what former heads of intel have stated.
That's entirely unrelated to the post that uke2se was responding to. We were talking about you saying that Russian influence on the election was fantasy, not that collusion was fantasy.
__________________
"Yes. But we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack!"
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 08:47 AM   #183
Grizzly Bear
このマスクによっ
 
Grizzly Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,764
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's entirely unrelated to the post that uke2se was responding to. We were talking about you saying that Russian influence on the election was fantasy, not that collusion was fantasy.
It is directly related. The accusation is that the Russian government influenced the election results and that the Trump campaign was in collusion. Its fantasy because the democrat party has yet to provide solid evidence of this occuring... yet they push it as a matter of historical record despite having this pointed out.

I do not assume the russians didnt try or had aspirations. But youre dealing with accusations that the election resylts WERE impacted. There remains no such evidence at this point. and they are only hurting their own cause by pushing the issue in spite of that
__________________

Last edited by Grizzly Bear; 23rd March 2017 at 08:49 AM.
Grizzly Bear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 08:52 AM   #184
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 64,749
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
It is directly related. The accusation is that the Russian government influenced the election results and that the Trump campaign was in collusion.
Those are two separate claims. When asked why the first was fantasy you switched to the second.

Quote:
Its fantasy because the democrat party has yet to provide solid evidence of this occuring...
First of all, it's called the Democratic party. Second, perhaps you haven't followed the news in the last few months, but there's an ongoing investigation in the matter, one in which the various intelligence agencies have said that they have evidence of this occuring, and there's been quite a few news reports showing Russian officials boasting about such an incoming attack on American power, and an incredible number of links between people in the Trump administration and Russian oligarchs or Putin himself.

If you don't call that evidence, I have no idea what would make you raise your eyebrow aside from a signed confession from the would-be Czar of Russia himself.

Quote:
I do not assume the russians didnt try or had aspirations. But youre dealing with accusations that the election resylts WERE impacted.
The wikileaks release was a result of Russian hacking and was specifically targetted against Clinton. It's pretty naive to think that it didn't change at least a few minds about the election. And again, it's using a pretty narrow definition of the word "influence".
__________________
"Yes. But we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack!"
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 08:53 AM   #185
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,194
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
“We did not include any evidence in our report, and I say, ‘our,’ that’s NSA, FBI and CIA, with my office, the Director of National Intelligence, that had anything, that had any reflection of collusion between members of the Trump campaign and the Russians,” Clapper said. “There was no evidence of that included in our report.”..... “at the time, we had no evidence of such collusion.”

-Clapper

No semantics. Just going by what former heads of intel have stated.
Er, your original claim was that Russia directly influencing the US elections was a fantasy:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
And do you want to explain why democrats focus not on this, but on a fantasy they concocted about Russia directly influencing the US elections?
Your latest quote says the heads of intel didn't include any evidence of Trump's campaign colluding with the Russians. That is different than, and does not support, your first claim.


eta: D'oh! Ninja'd! Shoulda hit preview

Last edited by wareyin; 23rd March 2017 at 08:56 AM.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 08:59 AM   #186
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,075
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The wikileaks release was a result of Russian hacking and was specifically targetted against Clinton. It's pretty naive to think that it didn't change at least a few minds about the election. And again, it's using a pretty narrow definition of the word "influence".
It's not like Trump mentioned WikiLeaks everyday for the last month of the campaign. Oh... wait! GRUccifer's work seemed to come in handy for him.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 11:09 AM   #187
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 14,900
It's like Putin's goal was to get a wall built to keep American influence away from his borders, and have America pay for and build that wall itself.
__________________
"Realize deeply that the present moment is all you ever have." (Eckhart Tolle, 2004)
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 11:26 AM   #188
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 10,280
The sleaze bags known as the National Republican Congressional Committee are fund-raising based on Nunes supposed vindication of Trump's lie. link

Quote:
The National Republican Congressional Committee (NRCC) is claiming that allegations that former President Barack Obama ordered surveillance of President Trump were "confirmed" Wednesday by House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes (R-Calif.).

In an email to supporters on Thursday, the NRCC wrote that Obama was accused of surveilling Trump, as well as members of his transition team, leading with the subject line, "Confirmed: Obama spied on Trump."

"Former President Obama is accused of spying on Donald Trump in his final days in office," reads the email, which described it as "disturbing news."
The only thing they omitted is "Sad!".
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 12:58 PM   #189
Grizzly Bear
このマスクによっ
 
Grizzly Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,764
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Er, your original claim was that Russia directly influencing the US elections was a fantasy:
Yes. Because democrats have yet to provide concrete evidence that Russian interference influenced the outcome of the elections. Like I said. My claim stands until clickbait headlines and political posturing stops jumping the gun.

If the party doesnt want Trumps childish claims to merit weight. They need to start acting like adults themselves

If the pending investigations reveal more. I will retract this to the extent that their findings justify
__________________

Last edited by Grizzly Bear; 23rd March 2017 at 01:01 PM.
Grizzly Bear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 01:20 PM   #190
TraneWreck
Philosopher
 
TraneWreck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
Yes. Because democrats have yet to provide concrete evidence that Russian interference influenced the outcome of the elections. Like I said. My claim stands until clickbait headlines and political posturing stops jumping the gun.
Provide a description of how that could be proven to your satisfaction.

Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million. Trump won Pennsylvania by 68,000 votes. Turnout was very low. Democrats were bitter after a testy primary, and then emails are released to make it seem like one of the candidates got the shaft.

How many people stayed home or voted third party because of that release? Impossible to know for sure, but of course it influenced the election. Absent that hack, it's very possible Hillary would have won the electoral college. It would have taken less than a half million people to vote differently in certain states.

Before I go digging up opinion polls, please let me know what you're looking for. I get the feeling that I'm about to go on a snipe hunt.

Last edited by TraneWreck; 23rd March 2017 at 01:21 PM.
TraneWreck is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 01:31 PM   #191
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 20,484
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The sleaze bags known as the National Republican Congressional Committee are fund-raising based on Nunes supposed vindication of Trump's lie. link

The only thing they omitted is "Sad!".
Wow.

No wonder the gullible and / or stupid buy into this crap.

At some point, someone has to stop lying all the time.
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 01:56 PM   #192
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,313
Here's an interesting piece about the credibility of the CrowdStrike partisan hacks that brought you the "DNC was hacked by Putin" dreck. It's on Voice of America which the evil Trump has transformed into another Putinbot outlet as you can read in the comments.

I SO look forward to the next bubble that blows up in the face of the obnoxious fake news peddlers who dare to still pollute this subforum with their nonsense after their hilarious pre-election musings spectacularly collided with reality. Friday?
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 23rd March 2017 at 02:07 PM. Reason: fact check ;o)
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 03:04 PM   #193
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 64,749
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
Yes. Because democrats have yet to provide concrete evidence that Russian interference influenced the outcome of the elections. Like I said. My claim stands until clickbait headlines and political posturing stops jumping the gun.
Have you been deliberately avoiding seeing the information the rest of us have seen? How can you claim that there is no evidence?

And do you think that the intelligence agencies are making this stuff up?
__________________
"Yes. But we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack!"
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 03:55 PM   #194
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,075
Well this is a bold claim from Rep Schiff.

Quote:
The top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee is claiming that he has been presented with new information on collusion between associates of President Donald Trump and Russia that would merit a grand jury investigation.

Rep. Adam Schiff told CNN Thursday that he had seen additional evidence, but would not specify what it was.

"We continue to get new information that, I think, paints a more complete picture of at least what we know at the outset of our investigation," Schiff said.

Asked to explain his comments earlier in the week when he said there was more than just "circumstantial evidence of collusion," Schiff said, "I do think that it's appropriate to say that it's the kind of evidence that you would submit to a grand jury at the beginning of an investigation.

"It's not the kind of evidence that you take to a trial jury when you're trying to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt. But we're at the beginning of an investigation, and given the gravity of the subject matter, I think that the evidence certainly warrants us doing a thorough investigation."
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 05:14 PM   #195
elgarak
Illuminator
 
elgarak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,227
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
“We did not include any evidence in our report, and I say, ‘our,’ that’s NSA, FBI and CIA, with my office, the Director of National Intelligence, that had anything, that had any reflection of collusion between members of the Trump campaign and the Russians,” Clapper said. “There was no evidence of that included in our report.”..... “at the time, we had no evidence of such collusion.”

-Clapper

No semantics. Just going by what former heads of intel have stated.
You DO notice that Clapper spoke in the past tense, and carefully spoke only of evidence that they DID not have during his tenure. His phrasing does NOT exclude suspicion, investigation, surveillance, and the existence of evidence even at the time of his statement.
elgarak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2017, 06:07 PM   #196
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 16,956
The straws, they have been grasped.
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th March 2017, 02:00 PM   #197
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,075
Trump is throwing Flynn under the bus using his go to news outlet.

Quote:
Before we begin, don’t tell me the National Enquirer isn’t reputable — that is not the point of this story. The National Enquirer has an umbilical cord tethered*to Team Trump, and only writes what*Trump wants them to write. So the big question this morning is why Team Trump wants to smear Michael Flynn.

Now, the big news: The*National Enquirer is accusing former Trump National Security Adviser Michael Flynn of being a “Russian spy.”
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th March 2017, 02:34 PM   #198
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 5,478
Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
You DO notice that Clapper spoke in the past tense, and carefully spoke only of evidence that they DID not have during his tenure. His phrasing does NOT exclude suspicion, investigation, surveillance, and the existence of evidence even at the time of his statement.
I haven't reviewed the interview since it was fresh news, but that was my recollection of it as well. Nice to see I wasn't imagining it. In fact, I thought it rather stood out as a very well-parsed, impeccable performance.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th March 2017, 02:38 PM   #199
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 5,478
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Seems to be more pushback against events and to keep the focus, given the very important distinctions and caveats you quoted.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th March 2017, 05:51 PM   #200
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,962
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Eh, the Enquirer may be in Trump's pocket, but that doesn't mean he's behind this story.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:05 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.