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Tags Theresa May , uk elections , uk politics

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Old 18th April 2017, 12:24 PM   #81
dudalb
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Hyperbolic bollocks. She is putting her ideas to a general election. She is entitled to want to put her point of view forward, and she will be judged on it by the electorate. There is nothing undemocratic in that at all.
Agreed. I don't like May, but she is not doing anthing that is not traditional in the British system. Calling a new election when you think you party has the advantage is somthing that every party has done.We could get into a debate about if the American System of fixed terms for the legislature has some advanteges over the British system, but that is another discussion.
IMHO Labor has only itself to blame for the mess it is in.

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Old 18th April 2017, 12:33 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Why would you think there will be a couple of months off? There will be no substantive negotiations until the German elections are over anyway.
Totally missed my point, well done.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:37 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Totally missed my point, well done.
Oh OK. Apologies. Perhaps you'd like to make it again, a bit more clearly. Somehow I've missed something you think is there.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:38 PM   #84
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Timing!
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:39 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Agreed. I don't like May, but she is not doing anthing that is not traditional in the British system. Calling a new election when you think you party has the advantage is somthing that every party has done.
Except the rules were specifically changed to stop this and May was only too happy to abide by those rules, right up until she saw a chance to game the system. May is doing this purely and simply to dilute the influence of various groups of backbench MPs who might oppose some of her plans. You will have Tory ranks filled with newbie MPs full of ambition who will toe the line to avoid ruining their prospects by being labelled rebels.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:43 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Oh OK. Apologies. Perhaps you'd like to make it again, a bit more clearly. Somehow I've missed something you think is there.
Well as it was too complicated for you, the election will have zero impact on the outcome as we going to have the hardest of hardest of Brexits regardless, was that really so hard for you to understand?
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:47 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Except the rules were specifically changed to stop this and May was only too happy to abide by those rules, right up until she saw a chance to game the system. May is doing this purely and simply to dilute the influence of various groups of backbench MPs who might oppose some of her plans. You will have Tory ranks filled with newbie MPs full of ambition who will toe the line to avoid ruining their prospects by being labelled rebels.
That she is able to do so means the rules to prevent it from happening are flawed and left a loophole of some type.
IMHO the only way to prevent this is to go to fixed terms for legislatures.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:51 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Well as it was too complicated for you, the election will have zero impact on the outcome as we going to have the hardest of hardest of Brexits regardless, was that really so hard for you to understand?
Was it too much to expect that you read the bit I quoted, and understand that my response was to that, and not to the point you are making now and also made previously? There will be no "two months lost", despite your claim.

Now, I accept your general point, reiterated in the above quote about it making no difference to the "hardness" of Brexit. How about you accept that you were wrong in asserting there would be any lost negotiating time, and that this is what I was referring to in the post you were so snide about?
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:52 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Except the rules were specifically changed to stop this and May was only too happy to abide by those rules, right up until she saw a chance to game the system. May is doing this purely and simply to dilute the influence of various groups of backbench MPs who might oppose some of her plans. You will have Tory ranks filled with newbie MPs full of ambition who will toe the line to avoid ruining their prospects by being labelled rebels.
Good point.

Whilst I do not think she is a Putin or Erdogan as she was referred to earlier, there is her past which for me always irks. Namely, she failed time and time again as Home Secretary to deport people and this the Daily Mail, time and time, threw back in her face. Her ally.

Since becoming PM she passed through the "Snoopers Charter" - Dec 31 2016 and her government has recently voted through the right to unwrangle their equivalent human rights laws, which are based on the European Union Laws I believe, and to create a new set.

I would not invite her for tea.
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Old 18th April 2017, 12:52 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That she is able to do so means the rules to prevent it from happening are flawed and left a loophole of some type.
IMHO the only way to prevent this is to go to fixed terms for legislatures.
No, the rules are not flawed. They require a 2/3 supermajority for a decision for an early election. Corbyn is the fool that he agrees with this.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:05 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Hyperbolic bollocks. She is putting her ideas to a general election. She is entitled to want to put her point of view forward, and she will be judged on it by the electorate. There is nothing undemocratic in that at all.
No, it's not just putting ideas to the general election. The quote clearly shows that she accuses MPs that they would be doing their job as if it were a bad thing. That shows undemocratic tendencies. She may not be in the same league as Putin or Erdogan, but the quote is still deeply worrying.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:05 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Of course not. I think the Tories will even get a 2/3 majority in the Commons.

But a EU negotiator can still say: I don't know whom I'll be dealing with.
An EU negotiator can say anything but if it's blatantly untrue there's little mileage in it.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:06 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, the rules are not flawed. They require a 2/3 supermajority for a decision for an early election. Corbyn is the fool that he agrees with this.
With a rebellious Parliamentary party eager to be rid of him, I doubt he had much confidence that he would be obeyed if decided otherwise. His backbenchers will see this election as the way to be rid of him, and they can all rest a bit easier now that the party has agreed that all sitting MPs will automatically be selected as candidates.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:06 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
An EU negotiator can say anything but if it's blatantly untrue there's little mileage in it.
And who is going to stop them not negotiating for a month and a half? The courts?
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:09 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, it's not just putting ideas to the general election. The quote clearly shows that she accuses MPs that they would be doing their job as if it were a bad thing. That shows undemocratic tendencies. She may not be in the same league as Putin or Erdogan, but the quote is still deeply worrying.
But you said she was in the same league as Putin and Erdogan.

Besides, she is perfectly right to try to circumvent the chaos that would ensue if 2 years of negotiation were to be rejected by parliament, if that circumvention is entirely democratic (as it is). People complain about a hard Brexit, but having the result of negotiations chucked out after they've finished would mean we would be dumped out of the EU with no deal at all, which would be a ridiculous situation.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:13 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
With a rebellious Parliamentary party eager to be rid of him, I doubt he had much confidence that he would be obeyed if decided otherwise. His backbenchers will see this election as the way to be rid of him, and they can all rest a bit easier now that the party has agreed that all sitting MPs will automatically be selected as candidates.
IOW, Corbyn puts his personal interests above those of the party and those of the country.

I wonder, though, how many sitting Labour MPs are thrilled with the prospect of standing in these elections.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:17 PM   #97
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I doubt any MPs enjoy the prospect of a GE!
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:19 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
But you said she was in the same league as Putin and Erdogan.
I concede that part as hyperbole.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Besides, she is perfectly right to try to circumvent the chaos that would ensue if 2 years of negotiation were to be rejected by parliament, if that circumvention is entirely democratic (as it is). People complain about a hard Brexit, but having the result of negotiations chucked out after they've finished would mean we would be dumped out of the EU with no deal at all, which would be a ridiculous situation.
Of course it would be a bit of a bind. The more reason to stop stalling, get on with those negotiations and with realistic goals, not a white paper that would even have Santa rolling on the floor laughing.

But it's Parliament's right, nay, its duty, to vet the actions of the Crown and its ministers. Since the days of Edward I, if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:19 PM   #99
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I think May is a jerk doing a lame Maggie Thacther imitation,but calling her a dictator is really over the top.
Yeah, she is gaming the system. That means the system needs to be changed.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:23 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
......But it's Parliament's right, nay, its duty, to vet the actions of the Crown and its ministers. Since the days of Edward I, if I'm not mistaken.
We're not disputing that. We're disputing that seeking to have the best majority you can, is, without the hyperbole, undemocratic. I contend that it isn't, provided all your actions to achieve that end are democratic and follow centuries of convention. I can't see a problem with what May is doing in this regard.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:27 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think May is a jerk doing a lame Maggie Thacther imitation,but calling her a dictator is really over the top.
Yeah, she is gaming the system. That means the system needs to be changed.
It was, fixed 5 year terms were introduced to avoid this type of game playing, May actually needs to get parliament to vote to scrap the rule, which it appears they are happy to do.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:31 PM   #102
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The alternative is to have a confidence motion, and for the Tories to vote that they have no confidence in HM Government. That would at least have the benefit of being rather amusing.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:32 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Was it too much to expect that you read the bit I quoted, and understand that my response was to that, and not to the point you are making now and also made previously? There will be no "two months lost", despite your claim.

Now, I accept your general point, reiterated in the above quote about it making no difference to the "hardness" of Brexit. How about you accept that you were wrong in asserting there would be any lost negotiating time, and that this is what I was referring to in the post you were so snide about?
Except I made no such claim! I was pointing out that the argument about whether there would be 'lost time' was academic as it would have no bearing on the outcome! And frankly I'm wasting no more time on this.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:33 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
We're not disputing that. We're disputing that seeking to have the best majority you can, is, without the hyperbole, undemocratic. I contend that it isn't, provided all your actions to achieve that end are democratic and follow centuries of convention. I can't see a problem with what May is doing in this regard.
What she's doing is democratic and according to the law. However, that quote shows she's not a democrat at heart and has disdain for parliament, as Garrison put it well.

BTW, those centuries of convention were explicitly abrogated with the Fixed-term Parliaments act of 2011.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:34 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I doubt any MPs enjoy the prospect of a GE!
Some may like campaigning. Some may be very confident of their seat. For instance, Corbyn himself has had his seat since 1983, with large margins. There are plenty of Labour seats, though, where the MPs may tremble for their prospects. It may be more honourable for a Labour candidate to run in a constituency they never won than one with a 5% margin.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:37 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Except I made no such claim!........
Erm........ yes you did:

Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
....... a couple of months lost in negotiating while everyone waits for the election results .......
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
.........And frankly I'm wasting no more time on this.
So long as you accept that I am right, neither am I.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:39 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Just listened to Corbyns statement om Radio2. Not much I can say about it, it's hardly inspiring.
Seems like his staff told him 'Try and smile this time, sound upbeat rather than a miserable bore'. He's clearly not used to it so it looked like he was being shocked by electricity.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:42 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
What she's doing is democratic and according to the law. However, that quote shows she's not a democrat at heart and has disdain for parliament, as Garrison put it well.

She's using the democratic system to achieve an undemocratic end, that is avoid any serious scrutiny of her policies. She wants to drown any opposition in her own party under a tide of newbie backbenchers who will just do as they are told. She's going to use a victory over a shambolic opposition as a mandate to push through whatever policy she pleases, not counting those where she can use the 'Great Repeal Bill' to avoid any scrutiny to begin with.


Quote:
BTW, those centuries of convention were explicitly abrogated with the Fixed-term Parliaments act of 2011.
Which was a case of the right thing done for the wrong reasons. At the time it really meant tying the Lib-Dems to the coalition government, but it was a sound plan.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:44 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
It was, fixed 5 year terms were introduced to avoid this type of game playing, May actually needs to get parliament to vote to scrap the rule, which it appears they are happy to do.
They don't need to scrap the rule. The act allows for early elections when (from wiki):

------------------------------------------------------
Section 2 of the Act also provides for two ways in which a general election can be held before the end of this five-year period:

If the House of Commons resolves "That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government"...

If the House of Commons, with the support of two-thirds of its total membership (including vacant seats), resolves "That there shall be an early parliamentary general election".

-----------------------------------------------------------

The second way (which, for the moment, requires Labour's support) is what is being done.

It's not undemocratic and it's totally within the law.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:44 PM   #110
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Doesn't this highlight how utterly pointless the fixed term parliament act was? What opposition party is going to vote against the government calling an election?
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:45 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
The alternative is to have a confidence motion, and for the Tories to vote that they have no confidence in HM Government. That would at least have the benefit of being rather amusing.
That's not unheard of. In Germany, Kohl pulled that trick in 1982 when he had just come to power:
Quote:
On 1 October 1982, the CDU proposed a constructive vote of no confidence which was supported by the FDP. The motion carried. Three days later, the Bundestag voted in a new CDU/CSU-FDP coalition cabinet, with Kohl as chancellor. Many of the important details of the new coalition had been hammered out on 20 September, though minor details were reportedly still being hammered out as the vote took place. Though Kohl's election was done according to the Basic Law, it came amid some controversy. The FDP had fought its 1980 campaign on the side of the SPD and even placed Chancellor Schmidt on some of their campaign posters. There were also doubts that the new government had the support of a majority of the people. In answer, the new government aimed at new elections at the earliest possible date. Polls suggested that a clear majority was indeed in reach. As the Basic Law only allows the dissolution of parliament after an unsuccessful confidence motion, Kohl had to take another controversial move: he called for a confidence vote only a month after being sworn in, in which members of his coalition abstained. President Karl Carstens then dissolved the Bundestag and called new elections.
ETA: and so did Willy Brandt in 1972 and Gerhard Schröder in 2005, in all three cases deliberately designed to be lost and to trigger new elections.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:45 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And who is going to stop them not negotiating for a month and a half? The courts?
Why on earth would they want to stop negotiating?
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:46 PM   #113
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My constituency - at least until the boundary changes take effect - is the 17th least safe Labour seat with a winning margin of 1883 votes/3.6%. But it will be a straight fight between Labour and Tory; in 2015 both the LibDem and the Green candidate lost their deposits. I would normally vote LibDem but I may tactically vote Labour to try to keep this seat from going Tory. When I lived just half a mile away from where I do now, I had a LibDem MP!

I suspect the big question will be where the UKIP voters go to now that they have achieved their objective.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:47 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The second way (which, for the moment, requires Labour's support) is what is being done.

It's not undemocratic and it's totally within the law.
It's being done for an undemocratic purpose and If Labour weren't so supine they would force May to carry on with a limited majority.

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Doesn't this highlight how utterly pointless the fixed term parliament act was? What opposition party is going to vote against the government calling an election?
Actually this is precisely the situation where they should have done so. They are going to trade in a weak May government for a strong one. Not to mention imagine the unlikely scenario where Labour wins, then the Tories get to stick them with the blame for every catastrophe Brexit brings, winning this election would be a poison chalice. Smart play was to stand by the rules.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:48 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Doesn't this highlight how utterly pointless the fixed term parliament act was? What opposition party is going to vote against the government calling an election?
It was never about the opposition. It was brought in as a way of preventing either party in the coalition from bringing the government down. It was a Lib Dem requirement prior to entering the coalition.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:48 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Doesn't this highlight how utterly pointless the fixed term parliament act was? What opposition party is going to vote against the government calling an election?
You would think that an opposition party that is in disarray, is confused over its leadership, and is way down in the polls, would rather wait until the planned date for the next election so that they can get their ducks in a row.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:50 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
It's being done for an undemocratic purpose and If Labour weren't so supine they would force May to carry on with a limited majority.
Right. Going to the electorate to ask for a mandate is undemocratic.

Do you know what demos means?
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:50 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
.......I suspect the big question will be where the UKIP voters go to now that they have achieved their objective.
Some will return to the Tories, and some will stay with UKIP. Ukip will lose lots of votes to the Tories as a result of Brexit, but might gain a few from Labour because of Brexit.
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:51 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You would think that an opposition party that is in disarray, is confused over its leadership, and is way down in the polls, would rather wait until the planned date for the next election so that they can get their ducks in a row.
You think they'd have any ducks left in 3 years time?
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Old 18th April 2017, 01:52 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It was never about the opposition. It was brought in as a way of preventing either party in the coalition from bringing the government down. It was a Lib Dem requirement prior to entering the coalition.


That's fine but was pushed as being about preventing these situations


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