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Tags Theresa May , uk elections , uk politics

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Old 20th April 2017, 03:15 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Why does Brexit mean Brexit but opposition to it isn't going to help anybody because it's "confusion"?
Of course it's confusion. Opposing something that is definitely going to happen - indeed, is happening right now - is at best a waste of time, at worst extremely damaging.
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Old 20th April 2017, 03:18 AM   #282
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Why is it definitely going to happen?
Our system doesn't actually work like that...
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Old 20th April 2017, 03:27 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Of course it's confusion. Opposing something that is definitely going to happen - indeed, is happening right now - is at best a waste of time, at worst extremely damaging.
It will happen if nobody opposes it. When the Police try to mitigate or prevent crime, is this confusion because crimes are definitely going to happen? Brexit is a nonsense, and deserves to be opposed. It's a con as well. People have been deceived.

Some things that are definitely going to happen might not happen if people say no to them, which is what the opposition parties should be doing.
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Old 20th April 2017, 03:31 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Once again, what is May doing that is different then any other PM who called for a new election at a time he or she thought would give an advantage to their party? Standard Tactic IMHO.
And whatever rules were put in place to keep this from happening, have failed miserably.
If you don't like this kind of crap, consider going to fixed terms for PM's.
I dislike May a lot, but don't get why this is so reprehensible.
Do you think a Labor PM in the same situation would not do the same thing?
Not sure what you mean here, unless you are arguing that everything is permissable unless it breaks the law. However, it is not illegal to tell lies even for elected politicians to tell lies or to be hypocritical. Even you people have elected liars and hypocrites from time to time. In such situations, do you expect someone to say, "if you don't like having liars and hypocrites and people who come up with bad policies then you should change to rules to prevent such things."? No, you do not for such advice would be fatuous. This is the case here as well. Your fatuous advice ignores the fact that this is a very odd announcement indeed especially after having emphatically stated that she won't call a snap election. For me, regardless of how sure people think she should feel about winning the next election with a larger majority than she has now, I think to so arrogantly assume a victory is in the bag ought to be punished by the electorate. Of course, then we would be in a difficult situation of a new government having to suddenly take the reins of a time-sensitive negotiation that has a lot at stake.
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Old 20th April 2017, 03:49 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Of course it's confusion. Opposing something that is definitely going to happen - indeed, is happening right now - is at best a waste of time, at worst extremely damaging.
It's not a question of one thing or another, but rather what form Brexit takes. Almost half of votes did not want Brexit at all, and many of those who did want it did not want a hard Brexit.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:33 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
.......I think to so arrogantly assume a victory is in the bag ought to be punished by the electorate..........
You'll be able to back this up, I presume. I mean, you can show where she has said anything about assuming she'll win, can you?
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:36 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You'll be able to back this up, I presume. I mean, you can show where she has said anything about assuming she'll win, can you?

I don't think she'd have called one if she didn't think she'd win, would she?
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:39 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You'll be able to back this up, I presume. I mean, you can show where she has said anything about assuming she'll win, can you?
Either she does, or she is happy to leave the Brexit negotiations to another government having shaved off a few months for them. Which do you think it is?
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:42 AM   #289
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No, no. You made the claim. What was your evidence that she has arrogantly assumed she will win?

To make your case, you'll need to show that there was arrogance involved, not just that she has called an election. Not many PMs have ever called an election wanting to lose.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:45 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I don't think she'd have called one if she didn't think she'd win, would she?
That isn't the claim that was made. Is there anything in "not thinking she'd win" that would warrant punishment? I mean, every PM who has ever called an election was done it at a time they've chosen to suit their desire to win. What specifically is different about May doing precisely this that means she is A/ arrogant, and B/ deserves to be punished?
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:46 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, no. You made the claim. What was your evidence that she has arrogantly assumed she will win?

To make your case, you'll need to show that there was arrogance involved, not just that she has called an election. Not many PMs have ever called an election wanting to lose.
I will rephrase it, as you are missing the point. Either she thinks the election is in the bag - which would be arrogant, in my opinion. Or her loss would mean another government would be in a bad negotiating position due to her triggering of Article 50.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:46 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, no. You made the claim. What was your evidence that she has arrogantly assumed she will win?

To make your case, you'll need to show that there was arrogance involved, not just that she has called an election. Not many PMs have ever called an election wanting to lose.


I'm struggling to see why she'd call an election now if she didn't think she could win. She's looked at the polls, she's looked at her majority and decided to improve her chances of pushing through what she wants with an improved majority.

If she doesn't think she'll win, can you come up with another reason why she's called an election some three years before she had to?


It only makes sense to me if she thinks she'll win. Why has she done it if she doesn't?
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:49 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I will rephrase it, as you are missing the point. Either she thinks the election is in the bag - which would be arrogant, in my opinion.......
No, it's you missing the point.

Every PM in history who has called an election has done so at a time of their choice specifically to give them the best result possible. What is it about May doing exactly this that is arrogant, and which deserves punishment?

Or, are you saying that every PM who has ever called an election was as a result automatically arrogant and deserving of punishment?
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:50 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm struggling to see why she'd call an election now if she didn't think she could win......
So what? No one is arguing with this. The claim, however, wasn't that she thought she might win, but that she "arrogantly assumed it was in the bag" and therefore "deserved punishment". Back those claims up and help Angrysoba out, or just accept that you and I agree completely.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:54 AM   #295
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There's a pretty good summery of what's going on and why Labour voting for this election is tantamount to the turkeys voting for Christmas here.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:54 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
So what? No one is arguing with this. The claim, however, wasn't that she thought she might win, but that she "arrogantly assumed it was in the bag" and "deserved punishment". Back those claims up and help Angrysoba out, or just accept that you and I agree completely.

No, I wouldn't say it's arrogant, she's just looked at the polls. Opportunistic? Yes. Hypocritical? Yes.

She's demonstrated lots of arrogance since she became PM (by accident), but I don't think this is an arrogant move.

It may be her most savvy political move to date depending on the result. I do hope not.
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:59 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, I wouldn't say it's arrogant, she's just looked at the polls. Opportunistic? Yes. Hypocritical? Yes.

She's demonstrated lots of arrogance since she became PM (by accident), but I don't think this is an arrogant move........
Yep, we agree then. Angrysoba thinks something special is afoot this time, though, so I simply await the justification for that.
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Old 20th April 2017, 05:07 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Yep, we agree then. Angrysoba thinks something special is afoot this time, though, so I simply await the justification for that.

Yeah, there was a post of yours I completely missed, sorry about that.
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Old 20th April 2017, 05:18 AM   #299
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well this is a fruitful and interesting derail/nitpick going on...
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Old 20th April 2017, 05:20 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Farron doesn't have a 'softer' approach, he wants to reverse Article 50. All along he's tried to block Brexit and has called for a second referendum. Any vote for the Lib Dems is a vote to inject confusion into the issue, and regardless of your view on Brexit that's not going to help anybody.
when you say things like this in a discussion of politics, like asking why a government would care about retirement ages (another poster), all you do is lower your intellectual credibility in the discussion
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Old 20th April 2017, 05:21 AM   #301
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so, do we think the polls are accurate (and which ones etc?)

they were a bit off last time - is this effect going to increase or have they learnt from their errors?
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Old 20th April 2017, 05:26 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by DreadNiK View Post
well this is a fruitful and interesting derail/nitpick going on...

Yeah, cos all our other discussion is just so productive...
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Old 20th April 2017, 05:44 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by DreadNiK View Post
well this is a fruitful and interesting derail/nitpick going on...
You may think so. I tend to think that hyperbole should be challenged, otherwise there is a danger this place just becomes a "we hate X" and "we hate Y" slanging match like the usual fare in the USA politics sub forum.
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Old 20th April 2017, 05:47 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by DreadNiK View Post
so, do we think the polls are accurate (and which ones etc?)

they were a bit off last time - is this effect going to increase or have they learnt from their errors?
The broad thrust of them is likely broadly accurate, roughly within their usual margins of error. I have never heard of an opinion poll that has a 20 point gap within its margin of error! I truly hope that their sampling (and corrections) have improved since the last election.
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Old 20th April 2017, 06:03 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Of course it's confusion. Opposing something that is definitely going to happen - indeed, is happening right now - is at best a waste of time, at worst extremely damaging.
ISTM that there's absolutely no confusion about the LibDems' position on Brexit; they're fairly and squarely opposed to it on every level. I would expect that, in the vanishingly unlikely event that a LibDem government was elected, they would do all they could to terminate the Brexit process leaving the UK still in the EU. In politics, I'm not sure that "definitely going to happen" has any meaning whatsoever.

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Old 20th April 2017, 06:19 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, it's you missing the point.

Every PM in history who has called an election has done so at a time of their choice specifically to give them the best result possible. What is it about May doing exactly this that is arrogant, and which deserves punishment?
In this case, I would say it is the sensitive position that her government has put Britain in regarding Brexit. She already has a majority, so why bother with an election? Because she thinks she is assured of a bigger majority? Well, okay, but I think it's a silly gamble, and therefore on the face of it an arrogant one.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 20th April 2017, 06:23 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
In this case, I would say it is the sensitive position that her government has put Britain in regarding Brexit. She already has a majority, so why bother with an election? Because she thinks she is assured of a bigger majority? Well, okay, but I think it's a silly gamble, and therefore on the face of it an arrogant one.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more it's win/win for Ms May.

Either she gains an unassailable majority and can do what she likes or it all goes horribly wrong and she can slink away quietly without too much of the failure attaching itself to her.
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Old 20th April 2017, 06:41 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
.......She already has a majority, so why bother with an election? Because she thinks she is assured of a bigger majority? Well, okay, but I think it's a silly gamble, and therefore on the face of it an arrogant one.
Not just that.

On this page (or maybe the last) there are a number of explanations as to why she wants a bigger majority, and more. Read carefully the stuff about the Parliament Act and policies in government manifestos (the Salisbury Convention). Read carefully about the political situation in the House of Lords. Pay close attention to the stuff about being held to ransom by 8 disgruntled remainer back-benchers. If there is anything you struggle with, there are plenty here who will venture some help, no doubt.
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Old 20th April 2017, 06:51 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Not just that.

On this page (or maybe the last) there are a number of explanations as to why she wants a bigger majority, and more. Read carefully the stuff about the Parliament Act and policies in government manifestos (the Salisbury Convention). Read carefully about the political situation in the House of Lords. Pay close attention to the stuff about being held to ransom by 8 disgruntled remainer back-benchers. If there is anything you struggle with, there are plenty here who will venture some help, no doubt.
Are you arguing that she wants to explicitly put the government's policy on Brexit in the manifesto in order to prevent the Lords from delaying the passage of the Brexit bill?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:00 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It will happen if nobody opposes it. When the Police try to mitigate or prevent crime, is this confusion because crimes are definitely going to happen? Brexit is a nonsense, and deserves to be opposed. It's a con as well. People have been deceived.
He we go, all the proles are too stupid to see 'the truth' and therefore voted for Brexit. That canard got washed up last year.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Some things that are definitely going to happen might not happen if people say no to them, which is what the opposition parties should be doing.
No, things that are definitely going to happen will happen. That's what definitely means.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:03 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It's not a question of one thing or another, but rather what form Brexit takes. Almost half of votes did not want Brexit at all, and many of those who did want it did not want a hard Brexit.
The Lib Dems, or Tim Farron at least, wants to stop Brexit, not temper it. All this talk of opposing hard Brexit only popped up yesterday, clearly in an effort to win people over for the election. Prior to that Farron was hell bent on stopping it altogether.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:04 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
<sigh> Looks like the SUN and the DAILY MAIL have already started their election campaign.

Let's face it, it was these two papers that swung it for BREXIT. One is owned by an Australian who lives in the USA (iirc) and the other by an Non-Domestic Resident (someone who gives his principle address as abroad to avoid UK Income Tax).
Ex-Australian thank you very much, the scum hasn't been an Australian citizen for a long time.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:27 AM   #313
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I don't think it's so much about wanting more of a majority (though I think that's part of it, and may well happen) as wanting to stop all the whinging about May not having a mandate, not being elected etc. (which is all nonsense, but a distracting nonsense)

Go through an election, and the government can once again start claiming that they have a mandate for whatever it is they decide they have a mandate for, as usual.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:29 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
I don't think it's so much about wanting more of a majority (though I think that's part of it, and may well happen) as wanting to stop all the whinging about May not having a mandate, not being elected etc. (which is all nonsense, but a distracting nonsense)

Go through an election, and the government can once again start claiming that they have a mandate for whatever it is they decide they have a mandate for, as usual.


I think, at that point, it really does have a mandate.

One based on utter, utter tripe and misinformation, but a mandate from the people nonetheless.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:35 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
The system over here is far less polarised than in the US, and the 'centre' ground in the US would be considered very right of centre in the UK. It is always noteworthy to me that 'liberal' in the US is considered by some to be an insult, whereas in the UK, most parties would claim to be 'liberal' to some extent, and view it as a positive.

The electoral system makes a difference as well, the Prime Minister comes to power through a very different system to the US, so people view their vote in a different way.

Our parties are much closer together, and while there are certainly those who would never consider voting Tory or Labour, who they *will* vote for is less certain.

Of course, these are generalities, there are many who will only ever vote for one party, regardless of the candidate, and almost nothing will change that, just as in the US.
The political system in the UK seems pretty straightforward to me by observation of how it has worked for the past few decades of my existence. Every few years an election is held, there is much fuss created and much money spent, then a right of centre government is elected and everything continues more or less as it was before.

I don't think I will even bother voting in this one and if I do it will be for Green probably. Foregone conclusion and a waste of time.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:36 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
I don't think it's so much about wanting more of a majority (though I think that's part of it, and may well happen) as wanting to stop all the whinging about May not having a mandate, not being elected etc. (which is all nonsense, but a distracting nonsense)

Go through an election, and the government can once again start claiming that they have a mandate for whatever it is they decide they have a mandate for, as usual.
If May wanted to do that, she'd have done it when she became Prime Minister, but she explicitly ruled it out. It would've been the honourable thing to do, considering she protested Gordon Brown had no mandate when he came to power without an election, but she didn't do it.

The reason she's going to the country now is to exploit her current advantage in the polls (which is exactly what the Fixed-Term Parliament Act is supposed to prevent), to up her majority ahead of the police report into conservative MPs' overspending in the 2015 General Election, and to push back the 2020 election so it doesn't occur in the middle of the economic tumble we're about to take due to leaving the EU.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:36 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think, at that point, it really does have a mandate.

One based on utter, utter tripe and misinformation, but a mandate from the people nonetheless.
Is a mandate based on tripe and misinformation actually a mandate?

Sounds more like a con.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:38 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Is a mandate based on tripe and misinformation actually a mandate?
And that's why I'll carry on remoaning until the brex ***** come up with an extra 350m a week for the NHS.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to separate compound word in order for the autocensor to see and deal with a swear word.
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Last edited by Agatha; 21st April 2017 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:42 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Is a mandate based on tripe and misinformation actually a mandate?

Sounds more like a con.
No, this is a mandate, and a clearer one is difficult to realistically imagine:

Quote:
This means that overall the public think Brexit should go ahead by 69% to 21%
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/29...e-know-so-far/
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:43 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Is a mandate based on tripe and misinformation actually a mandate?

Sounds more like a con.

Welcome to post-fact democracy.
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