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Tags classified information , donald trump , national security issues , Trump controversies

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Old 16th May 2017, 06:17 AM   #361
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Nonsense. Trump is giving away intel because he thinks it makes him seem cool to his Russian buddies. There is no diplomacy in Trump's mind, no strategy, only a need to feed his tiny ego.
I think that is unfair. I think Trump's ego is larger than the observable universe.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:17 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Based upon for some people Trump is always bad Obama is good and for others Obama is always bad Trump/republicans are always good. You can deny it if you want it is not based upon provable facts.
So it's something you cannot back up. Then it is dismissed as BS.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:19 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
"I am imagining a scenario by which you guys would be hypocrites, so you are guilty of the hypothetical tu quoque fallacy."
"I wouldn't be in trouble if you hadn't told on me."

Did I do a decent job summarizing Eeyore's argument?
Seems spot on.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:20 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
To me it appears if it were not for the leak this information would not be out in the open. ISIS would probably not know about it.
What Tony said. On top of which, WaPo withheld the details in deference to national security. Unlike Trump.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:22 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
It much more likely that this anonymous source is a fake, a phony, a fraud.
Likely based on what?

Oh, that's right. Based on the fact that reporters are leftists, by definition.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:22 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
If President Obama had done this he would be praised as a great humanitarian by many here and as an excellent diplomat who was helping improve Russian US relations by sharing information that could prevent another airline terrorist disaster. Another group would have been condemning him for releasing state secrets.
I'd just as soon that both sides of the debate refrain from posts beginning, "If X had done this,..."
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:24 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Might that be your first clue he isn't my hero?
He's your champion. He makes people on the left mad and that's the only thing that matters to you. America and the world be damned.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:24 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Hevneren View Post
Please enlighten me: What happened to NATO between March 21 and March 27, so it went from "a good thing" to "obsolete" in six days?

And the Iraq war was a "tremendous success" one day but a "mess" four days later?
The Iraq war quotes are not so obviously inconsistent. In one, he claims it's a military success and in the other, a mess. If it is a mess for political or other reasons, then the two claims are not inconsistent.

I haven't checked the context of the quotes, so the inconsistency might be obvious. But, generally speaking, looking up Trump quotes in context doesn't make them easier to understand. His conversational style is "advanced addleheaded."
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:24 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Likeli based on what?

Oh, that's right. Based on the fact that reporters are leftists, by definition.
And not even a day later Trump himself has confirmed that this wasn't just fake news like logger told us.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:25 AM   #370
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Catch this OTHER "breaking news":
https://twitter.com/rebeccaballhaus/...76647222095872
News: Trump to file 2017 financial disclosure "in a short period of time, per WH official.

Also, if any reporter actually covers this nonsense, other than to say, "in an obvious attempt at distraction, the Trump administration tried to change the topic" and not let it work, they need to be fired immediately.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:29 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yeah, repeatedly posting that obviously false article does not make it true.
And it's false because it contradicts what you want to believe.

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Old 16th May 2017, 06:30 AM   #372
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And here comes the damage.
European official tells @AP their country might stop sharing intel with US if Trump gave classified info to Russian diplomats.
Leaking intel you don't have permission to share is sprinting past a large red line in the intel community.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:30 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
The Washington Post didn't really give any details about what Trump told the Russians beyond that it was about ISIS plotting to blow up airliners with laptops. And it wasn't a huge secret that there was some kind of plot about that since the US is planning on banning people from carrying laptops on planes traveling to the US.

ETA: He told the Russians what city the plot was detected in. But the WaPo didn't report which one it was.
I know... wait for it...

Benghazi!
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:32 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Do you think it is a bad thing to let the Russians know that this is a credible threat based upon intel and maybe save lives and prevent another disaster like the Russian plane that blew up months ago ending over 220 lives?
It rather depends on the details we don't know. If the intelligence came from another nation that did not want it shared with the Russians (which some stories allege), then Trump has harmed our relations and the willingness of others to share intelligence with us, thereby potentially putting more people at risk.

Frankly, the story that Trump revealed it to boost his own stature seems more plausible to me than that he was warning the Russians regarding the safety of their citizens, out of a deep and abiding concern. But I recognize that opinion is biased. You and I don't know how it was revealed (presuming the stories are correct), so we can't assume that the leak was done to save Russian lives.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:34 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
And it's false because it contradicts what you want to believe.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6f4fa7c342.jpg
It is most likely true, but would it kill the post to get someone on the record? It is possible (however remote) that none of their sources exist and all these news agencies are making it up and agreeing to back each other.

Claims are supposed to come with facts backed up by reviewable evidence.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:34 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Like it or not, EVERY SINGLE TIME you support something to be legal in this forum, without added disclaimer that this is morally repugnant and should be properly made illegal or unconstitutional, you are EFFECTIVELY telling everybody it is OK to do it.
That is absolutely false. It's only true to people who like to over-simplify things to the point of absurdity.

Slavery was legal in the pre-civil war south. There, I just supported slavery!
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:35 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
I didn't claim anything about President Obama. I just suspect the same group that is condemning President Trump would have said President Obama was doing a good thing if it had been him.
Had Obama done something like this, it would have been with care and forethought.

Trump apparently surprised the administration members present at the meeting and they had to quickly alert the CIA and NSA immediately thereafter.

For all Obama's faults, he is not one to speak without thinking.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:37 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is most likely true, but would it kill the post to get someone on the record? It is possible (however remote) that none of their sources exist and all these news agencies are making it up and agreeing to back each other.

Claims are supposed to come with facts backed up by reviewable evidence.
Yeah right. I suppose it's also possible that Trump essentially admitted it, despite that it didn't actually happen.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:37 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
And here comes the damage.
European official tells @AP their country might stop sharing intel with US if Trump gave classified info to Russian diplomats.
Leaking intel you don't have permission to share is sprinting past a large red line in the intel community.
This is a threat to national security. Trump has compromised America's safety because of this prospect.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:37 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
As I said yesterday:
Of course our concern with this has little to do with whether Trump broke the law and everything to do with whether he thoughtlessly put our national interests at risk. I didn't intend to suggest otherwise.

You and I have no disagreement here.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:38 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is most likely true, but would it kill the post to get someone on the record? It is possible (however remote) that none of their sources exist and all these news agencies are making it up and agreeing to back each other.

Claims are supposed to come with facts backed up by reviewable evidence.
How would they get anyone on the record? People would get in trouble for telling them that sort of stuff so obviously they make anonymity a condition for being a source.

Luckily the president of the United States himself has confirmed that the story is true:

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Old 16th May 2017, 06:39 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
It's not careless, at all. It's a planned-out strategy. Belittle the people who are criticizing Trump rather than defend Trump. It affords plausible deniability that their position is enabling and supporting Trump. "Hey, I never said I like the guy. I'm just pointing out what flaming ********** you lefties are!"
Occasionally certain conservatives - often evangelical Christians - bring up their more substantive support for the man: the Supreme Court. Pence would work just as well or better.

The free-marketeer conservatives are a little less enchanted and support from the libertarian wing (at least yesterday) waned due to Sessions' zeal to lock up as many people as possible.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
They know he's a pitiful excuse for a human and completely ill-suited for the office ...
His lack of discretion makes me think of a Ron White line about getting arrested for drunk and disorderly conduct. "I had the right to remain silent, but I didn't have the ability." Though memories are short and Trump loses no core support, the general impression among the public is not helped by his almost daily gaffes.

His VP and key Cabinet members have been hung out to dry on several occasions and may be getting sick of him or alarmed by what comes out of Trump's puckered sphincter of a mouth and his accumulation of unhinged tweets.

ETA: Does he have any idea what it takes to rise in the ranks of the KGB? I don't think so. He may think he can pressure the Russians to step up the fight against ISIS but he cannot out-manipulate Putin. They will use Trump's intelligence against him, if it suits them. ISIS is not a Russian priority right now, IMO.

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Old 16th May 2017, 06:39 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
If President Obama had done this he would be praised as a great humanitarian by many here and as an excellent diplomat who was helping improve Russian US relations by sharing information that could prevent another airline terrorist disaster.
Not in this world he wouldn't. You overplayed your hand with the word "humanitarian".
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:40 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
He has no mind, just an ego that needs feeding.
Ego is just a dead shell for a Lovecraftian ego-creature that demands the sacrifice of principles and humanity as nourishment.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:41 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You and I don't know how it was revealed (presuming the stories are correct), so we can't assume that the leak was done to save Russian lives.
Of course, there's no reason to presume that the stories are correct. And not only do we not know how this information was revealed, we don't actually know what was revealed either. The story claimed that Trump told the Russians what city our intel came from. We have no confirmation of this, but this was supposedly the part that might hurt our interests (although that presumed harm is based upon supposition too). Revealing intel which might help Russia stop an ISIS terrorist attack against Russia would not by itself hurt our interests.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:41 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
How would they get anyone on the record? People would get in trouble for telling them that sort of stuff so obviously they make anonymity a condition for being a source.

Luckily the president of the United States himself has confirmed that the story is true:

http://i.imgur.com/fw1r4zu.png
If they cant get it on record, then don't run it. And as skeptics, I don't think we should listen to them. We should be operating under evidence openly presented. We wouldn't accept a claim of psychic powers based on anonymous sources.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:41 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It is a strange Tu Quoque fallacy, "if your guy woulda dun it...." instead of "when your guy did it..."

How pathetic can they get?
To be fair, the tu quoque is based on the reaction of supporters, not what the bigwigs did.

But it's still a tu quoque based on a counterfactual. It is a funny stretch of an argument, but one made by both camps. How many people have pointed out that, had Hillary done this, the reaction from the GOP would be loud and forceful?
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:42 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
To me it appears if it were not for the leak this information would not be out in the open. ISIS would probably not know about it.
What information is that? All I learned about from the various articles is that the intel communities are concerned about laptop bombs, but we knew that. That was reported when Homeland banned laptops from flights from several airports and again more recently when they began considering banning them from Europe.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:44 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If they cant get it on record, then don't run it. And as skeptics, I don't think we should listen to them. We should be operating under evidence openly presented. We wouldn't accept a claim of psychic powers based on anonymous sources.
I guess the Washington Post shouldn't have run with what Deep Throat (you know the Associate Director of the FBI) told them either. And everybody should have just ignored the articles.

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Old 16th May 2017, 06:45 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
And here comes the damage.
European official tells @AP their country might stop sharing intel with US if Trump gave classified info to Russian diplomats.
Leaking intel you don't have permission to share is sprinting past a large red line in the intel community.
Yeah everybody saw this coming but Trump is such an idiot and protectionist that he doesn't care even if he knew.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:46 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah everybody saw this coming but Trump is such an idiot and protectionist that he doesn't care even if he knew.
A "yuge" win for Russia.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:46 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Luckily the president of the United States himself has confirmed that the story is true:
No, he hasn't.

The key part of the story is that Trump supposedly revealed the city that the intel came from, that this might lead the Russians to discovering our intelligence asset, and that this discovery might hurt our interests. Russia merely having information about possible Islamic terrorist attacks does not by itself harm us. We aren't worse off it Russia stops a terrorist attack.

So, did Trump confirm that he told the Russians which city the intel came from, which is the part that is supposed to make him look bad? No, he did not. He confirmed the part of the story which doesn't make him look bad. The best you can say is that he didn't specifically deny the part that is supposed to make him look bad. Not much to go on, though.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:47 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I guess the Washington Post shouldn't have run with what Deep Throat (you know the Associate Director of the FBI) told them either. And everybody should have just ignored the articles.

I thought Woodward and Bernstein were highly praised for all the fact checking they did? Just the opposite of "running with the story."
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:50 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Not in this world he wouldn't. You overplayed your hand with the word "humanitarian".
So did Trump in 'his' latest tweets.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:51 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, he hasn't.

The key part of the story is that Trump supposedly revealed the city that the intel came from, that this might lead the Russians to discovering our intelligence asset, and that this discovery might hurt our interests. Russia merely having information about possible Islamic terrorist attacks does not by itself harm us. We aren't worse off it Russia stops a terrorist attack.

So, did Trump confirm that he told the Russians which city the intel came from, which is the part that is supposed to make him look bad? No, he did not. He confirmed the part of the story which doesn't make him look bad. The best you can say is that he didn't specifically deny the part that is supposed to make him look bad. Not much to go on, though.
Last I knew, it wasn't our asset, but an allies asset.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:53 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of course, there's no reason to presume that the stories are correct. And not only do we not know how this information was revealed, we don't actually know what was revealed either. The story claimed that Trump told the Russians what city our intel came from. We have no confirmation of this, but this was supposedly the part that might hurt our interests (although that presumed harm is based upon supposition too). Revealing intel which might help Russia stop an ISIS terrorist attack against Russia would not by itself hurt our interests.
The reason to presume the stories are correct is simple: The WaPo claims several sources, and other news organizations have found that their sources confirm the same story.

As the Scum said, either there's a group in the administration making up lies to spread to the press or the press is conspiring to tell consistent lies or the story is true. The last option seems most likely.

As far as our interests go, sharing intel with European allies is very much in our interest and giving that intel to the Russians jeopardizes that interest.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:54 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, he hasn't.

The key part of the story is that Trump supposedly revealed the city that the intel came from, that this might lead the Russians to discovering our intelligence asset, and that this discovery might hurt our interests. Russia merely having information about possible Islamic terrorist attacks does not by itself harm us. We aren't worse off it Russia stops a terrorist attack.

So, did Trump confirm that he told the Russians which city the intel came from, which is the part that is supposed to make him look bad? No, he did not. He confirmed the part of the story which doesn't make him look bad. The best you can say is that he didn't specifically deny the part that is supposed to make him look bad. Not much to go on, though.
Agreed. Trump did not confirm the important and disturbing part of the story.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:55 AM   #398
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I guess the Washington Post shouldn't have run with what Deep Throat (you know the Associate Director of the FBI) told them either. And everybody should have just ignored the articles.

Any story that was composed only of anonymous sources? No, they shouldn't have.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:56 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, he hasn't.

The key part of the story is that Trump supposedly revealed the city that the intel came from, that this might lead the Russians to discovering our intelligence asset, and that this discovery might hurt our interests. Russia merely having information about possible Islamic terrorist attacks does not by itself harm us. We aren't worse off it Russia stops a terrorist attack.

So, did Trump confirm that he told the Russians which city the intel came from, which is the part that is supposed to make him look bad? No, he did not. He confirmed the part of the story which doesn't make him look bad. The best you can say is that he didn't specifically deny the part that is supposed to make him look bad. Not much to go on, though.
Him not nor anybody else not specifically denying it is implicit evidence that it is true. But keep on telling yourself that he might not have really done it if it makes you feel better.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 16th May 2017 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 16th May 2017, 06:56 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, he hasn't.

The key part of the story is that Trump supposedly revealed the city that the intel came from, that this might lead the Russians to discovering our intelligence asset, and that this discovery might hurt our interests. Russia merely having information about possible Islamic terrorist attacks does not by itself harm us. We aren't worse off it Russia stops a terrorist attack.
The intel apparently came from a non-US source who didn't authorise it to be shared with anyone, let alone the Russians. If that's true, then it's already potentially harmful to US interests who may lose that source.
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