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Old 10th February 2008, 05:30 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
So he presumably knows that the papers he keeps spamming around the web have been shot down in flames. I wonder why he keeps citing them.
Intellectual dishonesty, anyone?
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Old 17th February 2008, 07:12 AM   #322
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Over at Wikipedia, Ullman is pushing this study

Quote:
From Ullman:- A meta-analysis of 105 trials was published in Human and Experimental Toxicology.[Linde, K., Jonas, W.B., Melchart, D., et al. (1994) "Critical Review and Meta-Analysis of Serial Agitated Dilutions in Experimental Toxicology," Human and Experimental Toxicology, 13:481-92.] Although most of these studies were not high quality research, the studies that tended to show the most significant effects from homeopathic doses were the high quality studies. The researchers found that there were 40 high quality studies, of which 27 showed positive results from homeopathic doses (there were 50% more positive results than negative results). Of special interest were nine studies on mice which tested homeopathic doses beyond 15C that demonstrated a 40% decrease in mortality compared to mice in the control group.

Many people here may be familiar with the high standards of research for which Linde and Jonas are known.
I cannot find the paper. Does anybody have a copy or a link, or a link to any analysis of the study?
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Old 17th February 2008, 07:26 AM   #323
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Quote:
[Linde, K., Jonas, W.B., Melchart, D., et al. (1994) "Critical Review and Meta-Analysis of Serial Agitated Dilutions in Experimental Toxicology," Human and Experimental Toxicology, 13:481-92.]
It's at pubmed here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7917505

The Badly Shaved Monkey has ordered reprints. Hum. Exp. Toxicol. online doesn't go back that far yet.
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Old 17th February 2008, 08:22 AM   #324
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In the past I tried to understand one of Jonas's other papers:

Mol Cell Biochem. 2005 Mar;271(1-2):51-9.
External bioenergy-induced increases in intracellular free calcium concentrations
are mediated by Na+/Ca2+ exchanger and L-type calcium channel.

Kiang JG, Ives JA, Jonas WB.
Department of Cellular Injury, Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, 503 Robert
Grant Avenue, Room 1N07, Silver Spring, MD 20910-7500, USA.

"External bioenergy (EBE, energy emitted from a human body) has been shown to
increase intracellular calcium concentration ([Ca2+]i, an important factor in
signal transduction) and regulate the cellular response to heat stress in
cultured human lymphoid Jurkat T cells. In this study, we wanted to elucidate the
underlying mechanisms. A bioenergy specialist emitted bioenergy sequentially
toward tubes of cultured Jurkat T cells for one 15-minute period in buffers
containing different ion compositions or different concentrations of inhibitors. ..."

My memory is that the best I could do was to question that they had controlled the conditions properly. (They said they had.)
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Old 17th February 2008, 12:33 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by shpalman View Post
It's at pubmed here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7917505

The Badly Shaved Monkey has ordered reprints. Hum. Exp. Toxicol. online doesn't go back that far yet.
Thank you. The abstract does not give out very much information, I'll await BSM's analysis. Ullman seemed to be losing the argument over Shang's meta-analysis and pulled this one out to press the quote 'The better studies showed an effect'.

Originally Posted by flume View Post
In the past I tried to understand one of Jonas's other papers:

Mol Cell Biochem. 2005 Mar;271(1-2):51-9.
External bioenergy-induced increases in intracellular free calcium concentrations
are mediated by Na+/Ca2+ exchanger and L-type calcium channel.

Kiang JG, Ives JA, Jonas WB.
Department of Cellular Injury, Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, 503 Robert
Grant Avenue, Room 1N07, Silver Spring, MD 20910-7500, USA.

"External bioenergy (EBE, energy emitted from a human body) has been shown to
increase intracellular calcium concentration ([Ca2+]i, an important factor in
signal transduction) and regulate the cellular response to heat stress in
cultured human lymphoid Jurkat T cells. In this study, we wanted to elucidate the
underlying mechanisms. A bioenergy specialist emitted bioenergy sequentially
toward tubes of cultured Jurkat T cells for one 15-minute period in buffers
containing different ion compositions or different concentrations of inhibitors. ..."

My memory is that the best I could do was to question that they had controlled the conditions properly. (They said they had.)
Presumably this type of junk science led Ullman to the conclusion:-

Quote:
Many people here may be familiar with the high standards of research for which Linde and Jonas are known.
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Old 19th February 2008, 05:39 PM   #326
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Dana's just cited his favourite four studies again.
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Old 20th February 2008, 04:00 AM   #327
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And today he’s popped up in the comments section of this What Doctors Don’t Tell You article with his "positive results" list:
http://community.wddty.com:80/blogs/...eef_3F00_.aspx
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Old 22nd February 2008, 03:14 PM   #328
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Has anyone noticed him getting a bitch-slapping here at Wikipedia?
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Old 22nd February 2008, 05:56 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
Has anyone noticed him getting a bitch-slapping here at Wikipedia?
This is mainly from 'offthefence' who first came across as a mild logician but seems to have become enraged at Ullman's technique of ignoring facts and using silly language to make his points. I hope 'offthefence' is either a member here or would like to become one.
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Old 23rd February 2008, 01:42 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
Has anyone noticed him getting a bitch-slapping here at Wikipedia?

I have, but I don't think he has.
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Old 23rd February 2008, 03:46 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
Has anyone noticed him getting a bitch-slapping here at Wikipedia?
Aw, no one corrected him when he was wrong...

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong: when p < 0.05, this suggests statistical significance, but when p < 0.001, it is substantially significant.
Does Dana/James not know how to interpret a p-value? Or know what 'statistically significant' means? Or what alpha/type I errors are?
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Old 23rd February 2008, 04:52 AM   #332
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He could do a search in wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-value

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_..._I_and_Type_II

But I wonder if he would any the wiser.
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Old 23rd February 2008, 06:26 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by BillyJoe View Post
But I wonder if he would any the wiser.

Probably not, but he might at least be a little better informed.
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Old 23rd February 2008, 07:19 AM   #334
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Ironically, homoeopathy is one discipline where generally the null-hypothesis is not a strawman.
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Old 25th February 2008, 04:36 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi
Does Dana/James not know how to interpret a p-value? Or know what 'statistically significant' means? Or what alpha/type I errors are?
Nope! Although he does seem to have improved a little bit. Some time ago, his webpage on why "Homeopathy makes sense and works" [sic] stated that p=0.008 "means that there was a 99.2% chance that this treatment was effective". He now says that "When “P” equals .05, this means that there are 5 chances out of 100 that the effective of a specific treatment happened by chance, and scientists today consider this 5% chance as adequate evidence of a treatment’s effectiveness. In this study, however, there was an extremely high likelihood that the treatment was effective because there were only seven chances out of 10,000 (!) that this result happened by chance.)"

This is at least a little more accurate, but still gives the impression that you can just take a low p-value as being indicative of an effect, without taking into account bias, problems with study design, and so on.
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Old 25th February 2008, 05:40 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by wilsontown View Post
Nope! Although he does seem to have improved a little bit. Some time ago, his webpage on why "Homeopathy makes sense and works" [sic] stated that p=0.008 "means that there was a 99.2% chance that this treatment was effective". He now says that "When “P” equals .05, this means that there are 5 chances out of 100 that the effective of a specific treatment happened by chance, and scientists today consider this 5% chance as adequate evidence of a treatment’s effectiveness. In this study, however, there was an extremely high likelihood that the treatment was effective because there were only seven chances out of 10,000 (!) that this result happened by chance.)"

This is at least a little more accurate, but still gives the impression that you can just take a low p-value as being indicative of an effect, without taking into account bias, problems with study design, and so on.
Well, he's learning. But by chance over what? And who in the world uses a strict alpha = 0.05? I've used 0.1 for loose studies, down to 0.001 for very tight studies with large sample sizes. And Bonferroni... ah yes, Bonferroni. Maybe one of you in pure medicine may be able to answer this for me: Do med studies have a generally smaller alpha level, or is 0.05 actually the gold standard?
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Old 25th February 2008, 05:48 AM   #337
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It seems that he's no longer stating that p=0.008 "means that there was a 99.2% chance that this treatment was effective", while still leaving that as an implication. You might call that intellectual dishonesty, but I couldn't possibly comment.
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Old 28th February 2008, 09:06 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
Has anyone noticed him getting a bitch-slapping here at Wikipedia?

With regard to his continual demands that people "Assume Good Faith" (usually in the context of his attempts to introduce stuff that he's already seen demolished), I just listened to an old Goon Show ("The Jet-Propelled Guided NAAFI") which included this:
Quote:
GREENSLADE:
Mr Eccles, we are not for one moment doubting your sincerity. It's just your intelligence that's in question.

ECCLES:
Well, I accept your apology.
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Old 28th February 2008, 09:30 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
This is mainly from 'offthefence' who first came across as a mild logician but seems to have become enraged at Ullman's technique of ignoring facts and using silly language to make his points. I hope 'offthefence' is either a member here or would like to become one.

Well it's not me (I woudn't take credit for someone else's stellar performance, who me? - and my PhD isn't in pharmacology). But I don't think you'd have all that far to look.

Rolfe.
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Old 28th February 2008, 10:00 AM   #340
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It's also worth noting that both Martin Chaplin and Ullman have weighed in on the Wikipedia page for memory of water. Oh, what fun.
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Old 28th February 2008, 10:09 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by wilsontown View Post
It's also worth noting that both Martin Chaplin and Ullman have weighed in on the Wikipedia page for memory of water. Oh, what fun.
Quote:
"On removing the water from the freezer, it will be observed that the block of ice, though now exposed to room temperature, will remain a block of ice for some time. Thus, there exists in water a property which enables it to "remember" for a certain amount of time that it has been kept in the freezer"
Speechless.
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Old 28th February 2008, 10:15 AM   #342
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Crikey, I missed that bit. God help us all.
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Old 28th February 2008, 10:19 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by shpalman
Originally Posted by wilsontown View Post
It's also worth noting that both Martin Chaplin and Ullman have weighed in on the Wikipedia page for memory of water. Oh, what fun.
Quote:
"On removing the water from the freezer, it will be observed that the block of ice, though now exposed to room temperature, will remain a block of ice for some time. Thus, there exists in water a property which enables it to "remember" for a certain amount of time that it has been kept in the freezer"
Speechless.
Can water become demented, then? What would happen if it forgot that it was supposed to obey the laws of thermodynamics?

Linda
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Old 28th February 2008, 10:28 AM   #344
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Reading DUllman arselicking Chaplin was particularly nauseating.

...Is arselicking (the word not the action...) allowed here, or should I edit?

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Old 28th February 2008, 10:37 AM   #345
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Quote:
On removing the water from the freezer, it will be observed that the block of ice, though now exposed to room temperature, will remain a block of ice for some time. Thus, there exists in water a property which enables it to "remember" for a certain amount of time that it has been kept in the freezer

This has got to be a windup. Surely.

Rolfe.
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Old 28th February 2008, 11:04 AM   #346
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Old 28th February 2008, 11:23 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Reading DUllman arselicking Chaplin was particularly nauseating.
The toadying to anyone who he thinks may come in on his side is in marked contrast to the snide tone in which he answers anyone who doesn't agree with him.
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Old 28th February 2008, 11:24 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This has got to be a windup. Surely.

I've done a Google search, and it's right there in the book.
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Old 28th February 2008, 11:44 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by shpalman View Post
Speechless.
Good grief. Words fail me.
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Old 28th February 2008, 12:06 PM   #350
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I'm most intruiged by this sentence towards the end of the 'More recent experiemets' section:

'The changes in the aqueous properties seem, at least partly, down to the inherent unusualness of water.'

That is not shown as a quote, but as an encyclopedic fact.

Is water inherently unusual?
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Old 28th February 2008, 12:09 PM   #351
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When I did chemistry at school, yes.

Makes you wonder how come they just use ethanol instead when they feel like it. Rustum Roy's "memory of water" results were actually all from ethanol, not water. In fact I think it's the other way round, Hahnemann originally used ethanol, but in modern times people have drifted to water because it doesn't get you tipsy and won't somebody think of the children.

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Old 28th February 2008, 12:33 PM   #352
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And it's cheaper.
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Old 28th February 2008, 04:32 PM   #353
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I've just read my way through that "Arsenicum Album" page, and I think my brain just came out through my ears. OffTheFence, you're a saint. I couldn't do that for a pension. (Well, maybe if I was collecting my pension....)

All that fuss for an obscure page on nothing very much. But if it wasn't done, the homoeo enthusiasts would just take advantage of the inertia and hype their woo all over the damn place.

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Old 28th February 2008, 04:43 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
Can water become demented, then? What would happen if it forgot that it was supposed to obey the laws of thermodynamics?

Linda
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Old 28th February 2008, 04:54 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
When I did chemistry at school, yes.

Makes you wonder how come they just use ethanol instead when they feel like it. Rustum Roy's "memory of water" results were actually all from ethanol, not water. In fact I think it's the other way round, Hahnemann originally used ethanol, but in modern times people have drifted to water because it doesn't get you tipsy and won't somebody think of the children.

Rolfe.
...and the water nowadays is somewhat safer than it was in his day.
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Old 29th February 2008, 02:32 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I've just read my way through that "Arsenicum Album" page, and I think my brain just came out through my ears. OffTheFence, you're a saint. I couldn't do that for a pension. (Well, maybe if I was collecting my pension....)

All that fuss for an obscure page on nothing very much. But if it wasn't done, the homoeo enthusiasts would just take advantage of the inertia and hype their woo all over the damn place.

Rolfe.
I've been trying to work out why OffTheFence was finding so much difficulty in getting sensible criteria to be applied to those crap papers.

It seems to me that Wikipedia has in place procedures that limit the intrusion of woo into mainstream topics, though that didn't top Depleted Uranus from trying to force that stupid CHEST paper of his into the chemistry page of potassium dichromate.

But, if the whole topic is situated in the realm of woo, such as discussing a particular hom remedy, really it should be discussed from an external viewpoint- People have believed in astrology for thousands of years..., Characteristics are assigned to different star signs and astrologists believe these are reflected in people's personalities. Where it goes wrong is when it is woo stuff being discussed from a perspective inside woo and there is nothing from outside woo that exists to balance it. Why would mainstream science ever bother to counter DU's stupid papers? But in Wikipedia terms this means there is nowhere from which to derive a "reliable source" of material to set against the nonsense. It seems that OffTheFence has, nonetheless, found all sorts of ways that some balance can be introduced, but it appears very difficult to actually put that into Articles without the defenders of endarkenment complaining and tying the whole thing up in procedural knots.

Maybe if you are stupid enough to use Wikipedia to read about particular beliefs inside woo then you deserve to read crap. It's not right, but as Rolfe points, out it becomes a tiringly pointless game of WhackAMole if someone like DU just pulls yet another obscure abstract from his fundament for a paper he has not even read (as I think one can conclude pretty safely that he had not read the Cazin paper that was being discussed). It is a particularly asymmetrical form of intellectual warfare if the good guys stick to the rules of reading and analysing the material honestly while the woos just throw things in at random and there is no one to make them play fairly.

So much stupidity, so little time.
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Old 29th February 2008, 03:43 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
I've been trying to work out why OffTheFence was finding so much difficulty in getting sensible criteria to be applied to those crap papers.
Wiki doesn't seem well equipped to recognise Reliable Sources, if (as someone appears to have pointed out) actually reading a paper (rather than quoting what someone else says about it in another paper) seems to be disallowed for being Original Research.

Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
Why would mainstream science ever bother to counter DU's stupid papers? But in Wikipedia terms this means there is nowhere from which to derive a "reliable source" of material to set against the nonsense.
Exactly: again you can't say that all of mainstream physics, chemistry, biology and medicine imposes a tiny prior probability on homeopathy because that once more counts as Original Research or Synthesizing sources. (And "keeping a Neutral Point of View" doesn't mean 0.5 prior probability that it works or it doesn't.)

At least for the Water Memory stuff there's one article in the very same issue of Homeopathy and lots of letters in the next one to cite.

Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey View Post
Maybe if you are stupid enough to use Wikipedia to read about particular beliefs inside woo then you deserve to read crap...
It's when that stuff leaks into sensible articles that we have more of a problem.
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Old 29th February 2008, 04:55 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by shpalman View Post
It's when that stuff leaks into sensible articles that we have more of a problem.

It's a problem if there's inaccurate information anywhere on there. People can then link to this to support their arguments elsewhere, and many people will assume that the information is accurate.

Dana, for example, has attempted to edit several pages on Wikipedia so that they support otherwise unsupported claims in his recent book.
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Old 11th March 2008, 03:12 AM   #359
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dilution beyong avogadro number

Edited by Darat:  Content deleted: Generic notice - this Member has breached their Membership Agreement in several ways in all of their first posts bar one, the breaches cover Rule 11, Rule 6 and Rule 4 and possible other rules! All the content of the offending posts is being deleted and this message left in all posts edited.

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Old 11th March 2008, 03:20 AM   #360
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This is the third thread where this pate job had been posted.
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