IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 16th February 2013, 11:41 AM   #241
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
And the UK converted their Enfields in a similar way, though retaining the .577 calibre, using the Snider system.
Kipling perpetrated versification on this topic. Here's a stanza from "The Grave of the Hundred Head". http://www.wargames.co.uk/poems/Grave.htm
Quote:
A Snider squibbed in the jungle-
Somebody laughed and fled,
And the men of the First Shikaris
Picked up their Subaltern dead,
With a big blue mark in his forehead
And the back blown out of his head.
They laughed when they did it, you know, these heathen insurgents and dacoits. Nasty chaps altogether. But then read the rest of the poem.
Quote:
Yes IIRC the Chassepot used a rubber obdurator, the earlier Delvigne system used a wooden sabot.
Thanks, I thought so.

Last edited by Craig B; 16th February 2013 at 11:47 AM.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 02:41 AM   #242
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Goodbye to all that by Robert Graves is a striking personal account of the war.

I wasn't impressed with "Mud, Blood and Poppycock" by Gordon Corrigan - see a post on that below:

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
sacket, you'd "love" "Mud, Blood and Poppycock" by Gordon Corrigan.

It overturns several myths about WWI.

The first day of the Somme offensive was not a pointless waste of 20,000 allied lives, despite the fact that no ground was captured. This was because the BEF had been destroyed as a fighting force, so raw, semitrained troops could only walk towards the machine guns. It was the only option, and thus not pointless. (IIRC)

It was a myth that the slaughter was massive, after all 75% of British troops in the Somme were not killed or injured.

Only 12% of all french men born in 1899 were killed in the war.

Of the 8-million British Empire (?) troops mobilised during the war "only" 1 milion were killed or disabled*

*the figures seem high for mobilisation, but the fraction was right, and he was arguing that this showed how benign it was compared to the myths.

I seem to recall some statistics, which he claimed showed how great a chance for survival there was, and you would have been better off playing russian roulette once.

This might have been a slightly harsh review from my recollection of the book (borrowed, not bought), but a quick google search shows me that others think similarly....


"A Bright Shining Lie: John Paul Vann and America in Vietnam" by Neil Sheehan is a history book that is well worth the read; a biography of an outstandingly brave, able, humane, mysogonistic general...

Jim
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 07:14 AM   #243
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This tells us a terrible story, the Russians just didn't value the lives of their people very much in the 20th century.
What do you base such bigoted ideas on?
Is it really bigoted?

I assume that StankApe is talking about the leadership of Czarist Russia or the Soviet Union.

If you send more troops into battle than smallarms, so that the some have tp pick up weapons from their dead comrades, and put security battalions behind to shoot deserters, it would suggest that the leadership was a bit cavalier with their troops.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

Last edited by jimbob; 23rd February 2013 at 07:18 AM.
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 07:17 AM   #244
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
I can understand why Gallipoli is so important in New Zealand and Australia, but it does infuriate me somewhat that our efforts on the Western Front are as a result virtually ignored. Both countries suffered vastly more casualties on the Western Front than in Gallipoli. Both countries also performed vastly better, which makes it something of a double insult to WWI veterans to ignore those efforts.

I look forward to the day that the "Imperialist Britain" heartlessly ordering hapless Dominion troops into massacres is finally put to bed, and people recognise that the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand forces in particular often got the hardest missions because they were regarded as amongst the best troops.
Derail
My grandfather was an ANZAC injured at Passchendaele. Unfortunately my aunt burned his war diaries and now regrets it.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2013, 01:15 AM   #245
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post

I wasn't impressed with "Mud, Blood and Poppycock" by Gordon Corrigan - see a post on that below:
The point of "Mud, Blood and Poppycock" by Gordon Corrigan wasn't that British casualties weren't high, it was that considering what Britain had to do they weren't unreasonable (and didn't prove that the generals were incompetent. In fact, going from a small army, with no mass mobilization planning (due to politicians) to a massive army capable of taking on the majority of the German Army was a major achievement. Unfortunately, you don't take on the main force of the German Army without taking major casualties.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2013, 11:59 AM   #246
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The point of "Mud, Blood and Poppycock" by Gordon Corrigan wasn't that British casualties weren't high, it was that considering what Britain had to do they weren't unreasonable (and didn't prove that the generals were incompetent. In fact, going from a small army, with no mass mobilization planning (due to politicians) to a massive army capable of taking on the majority of the German Army was a major achievement. Unfortunately, you don't take on the main force of the German Army without taking major casualties.

Agreed. He made a pretty good case that the British high command was not uniquely incompetent, and might even have been more competent than some of the others.

It was some of his interpretation of the claims.

For example his idea that "only" 1/8 of all French males born in 1896 were killed in the war.

Or that the first day of the Somme wasn't a complete waste of life. *With hindsight* doing everything except actually trying to advance on that day would have achieved as much.


Corrigan's reasoning seemed to be, "Something had to be done to reduce the pressure on Verdun, this was something, so it was not pointless"
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st March 2013, 03:15 PM   #247
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Agreed. He made a pretty good case that the British high command was not uniquely incompetent, and might even have been more competent than some of the others.

It was some of his interpretation of the claims.

For example his idea that "only" 1/8 of all French males born in 1896 were killed in the war.

Or that the first day of the Somme wasn't a complete waste of life. *With hindsight* doing everything except actually trying to advance on that day would have achieved as much.


Corrigan's reasoning seemed to be, "Something had to be done to reduce the pressure on Verdun, this was something, so it was not pointless"
Well, it obviously wasn't pointless as it stopped the war from being lost. (The Germans had to cease attacking at Verdun allowing the French to gain the initiative and the Germans had to put in [IIRC] an additional 42 divisions into the Somme, of which 35 were sent against the British).

Of course things could have been better but here are some of the factors that Haig was dealing with:

1) Without a sizable British offensive the French Army would collapse (based on the words of the French CinC to Haig)
2) The attack could start no later than the beginning of July (based on the words of the French CinC to Haig. Note that Haig would have preferred Mid August to allow more preparation)
3) The location of the offensive would have to be on the Somme (Haig would have preferred Ypres as there was actually ground of value there)
4) The Germans had been able to spend 18 months improving their positions on the Somme
5) Pre-registering guns and sound-ranging anti battery fire techniques had not yet been developed
6) A lot of shells were still shrapnel instead of the high explosive that was needed against the German wire and entrenchments

Now, it would have been nice if Haig had been able to commit the BEF to battle at a time and place of his choosing, when he had all of the necessary tools and techniques… but that wasn't possible under the pressure of circumstances. Haig (and his political overseers) were given a choice: attack on the Somme or lose the war (which is what abandoning the French to their fate at Verdun would probably have meant). They chose to attack. What followed was talked about, in general terms, by Corrigan somewhere else in the book (apologies if this is somewhat inexact, it's from memory):

"The British do not have a history of conscription, or a militarized society. This has obvious cultural benefits and is a valued part of our culture. However, when the nation is plunged into total war and forced to commit sizable land forces this means that there will always be a Somme, or the equivalent, where a hastily raised force is pitched against a well trained, long prepared, numerous enemy and heavy casualties will then be inevitable. Either accept that, or do not go to war in the first place".
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd March 2013, 01:40 PM   #248
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Well, it obviously wasn't pointless as it stopped the war from being lost. (The Germans had to cease attacking at Verdun allowing the French to gain the initiative and the Germans had to put in [IIRC] an additional 42 divisions into the Somme, of which 35 were sent against the British).

Of course things could have been better but here are some of the factors that Haig was dealing with:

1) Without a sizable British offensive the French Army would collapse (based on the words of the French CinC to Haig)
2) The attack could start no later than the beginning of July (based on the words of the French CinC to Haig. Note that Haig would have preferred Mid August to allow more preparation)
3) The location of the offensive would have to be on the Somme (Haig would have preferred Ypres as there was actually ground of value there)
4) The Germans had been able to spend 18 months improving their positions on the Somme
5) Pre-registering guns and sound-ranging anti battery fire techniques had not yet been developed
6) A lot of shells were still shrapnel instead of the high explosive that was needed against the German wire and entrenchments

Now, it would have been nice if Haig had been able to commit the BEF to battle at a time and place of his choosing, when he had all of the necessary tools and techniques… but that wasn't possible under the pressure of circumstances. Haig (and his political overseers) were given a choice: attack on the Somme or lose the war (which is what abandoning the French to their fate at Verdun would probably have meant). They chose to attack. What followed was talked about, in general terms, by Corrigan somewhere else in the book (apologies if this is somewhat inexact, it's from memory):

"The British do not have a history of conscription, or a militarized society. This has obvious cultural benefits and is a valued part of our culture. However, when the nation is plunged into total war and forced to commit sizable land forces this means that there will always be a Somme, or the equivalent, where a hastily raised force is pitched against a well trained, long prepared, numerous enemy and heavy casualties will then be inevitable. Either accept that, or do not go to war in the first place".
Yes, but on the first day the British achieved little beyond forcing the Germans to use up ammunition.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

Last edited by jimbob; 2nd March 2013 at 01:44 PM.
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd March 2013, 10:35 AM   #249
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
The first day was bad (though not an unmitigated disaster; the French and the southern part of the british line did better).

The question in a lot of ww1 battles Is perhaps "given the information available to the general and diplomatic/strategic demands he was under... Would you have done things so differently? As I have read more and more about the first world war, my views on the british generals have evolved from "blo
blackadder" to "professionals doing a very difficult job in the most difficult of circumstances".
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2013, 09:16 PM   #250
Jimbo07
Illuminator
 
Jimbo07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,504
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Just stay away from Passchendaele - I mean the first ten and the last twenty or so minutes are pretty good as a war movie, but the rest is a really badly paced love story set in 1918 Calgary...
Yeah! The first and last sequences are competitive with any war movie I've ever seen from the States, from an effects perspective! I loved the fact that they were fighting with axes! Canadian toughness.

Quote:
I wanted a Canadian War Movietm, I got nothing like it.
Actually, I think you got a quintessentially Canadian War Movie

They blew their effects budget on the first and last sequences. There was no reason to have an armless man back home with the actor's arm clearly tucked in his shirt. I hope that actor isn't genuinely armless, because the movie made him look like it was tucked in his shirt! Terrible. I don't even mind a love story, but the whole middle hour was CanCon filler. Yes, it gave the contrast between the war and the homefront...

Bah.
__________________
This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group.

Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key
Jimbo07 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2013, 12:32 PM   #251
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
Peter Jackson has a film on Gallipoli on his to do list. He has stated it will be different in scope and approach then the 1982 Austrailian film on the topic, in that it will focus on the Intial landings.Could be interesting.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2013, 01:04 PM   #252
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Peter Jackson has a film on Gallipoli on his to do list. He has stated it will be different in scope and approach then the 1982 Austrailian film on the topic, in that it will focus on the Intial landings.Could be interesting.
I thought he was going to bring out a dambusters movie!!!
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2013, 02:04 PM   #253
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I thought he was going to bring out a dambusters movie!!!
He is, that is apparently his first project after he gets The Hobbit squared away. But a Gallipoli film is one he mentions as on his list.
He already has Three flying replicas of Lancasters built and ready to go for The Dambusters.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2013, 02:22 PM   #254
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
He is, that is apparently his first project after he gets The Hobbit squared away. But a Gallipoli film is one he mentions as on his list.
He already has Three flying replicas of Lancasters built and ready to go for The Dambusters.
<Derail>
A lot of the practicing for Operation Chastise was on a local reservoir in the Derwent Valley, and there are sometimes ceremonies marking the occasion. On a couple of occasions, the remaining one has flown fairly low over our house on the way to the reservoirs.

Quite impressive, especially when you are not expecting it and then hear the four Merlin engines, the look up and see a rather unmistakable shape in the sky.

</Derail>
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2013, 02:34 PM   #255
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
That there is only one Lancaster that is flyable left ,and that it is not going to be risked doing some of the flying that the movie would require, is why Jackson had 3 flying replicas built.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2013, 02:39 PM   #256
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That there is only one Lancaster that is flyable left ,and that it is not going to be risked doing some of the flying that the movie would require, is why Jackson had 3 flying replicas built.
Understood, it was just quite a surprise when I looked up and saw it flying low overhead.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2013, 05:44 PM   #257
Huttosaurus
Scholar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Hutt Vegas, NZ
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That there is only one Lancaster that is flyable left ,and that it is not going to be risked doing some of the flying that the movie would require, is why Jackson had 3 flying replicas built.
Just to correct, there are two airworthy Lancasters; one in the UK and one in Canada. The Canadian one is privately owned and operated, and the UK is still on strength with the Royal Air Force. Neither is in a configuration that represents the Dambuster Lancasters, and any role for them in the movie would thus be limited (besides being located thousands of miles away from the production base).

The replicas Jackson had constructed (along with a couple of Wellingtons apparently, that have not been seen in public) are strictly static, or possibly taxiable, shells only. They are not flyable aircraft in any way. I am local both to his production company base, and the airfield where one of the replicas was used for screen tests, and believe me if it had flown it would have been impossible for the aviation community at large not to know about it.
Huttosaurus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2013, 11:47 PM   #258
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
Originally Posted by Huttosaurus View Post
Just to correct, there are two airworthy Lancasters; one in the UK and one in Canada. The Canadian one is privately owned and operated, and the UK is still on strength with the Royal Air Force. Neither is in a configuration that represents the Dambuster Lancasters, and any role for them in the movie would thus be limited (besides being located thousands of miles away from the production base).

The replicas Jackson had constructed (along with a couple of Wellingtons apparently, that have not been seen in public) are strictly static, or possibly taxiable, shells only. They are not flyable aircraft in any way. I am local both to his production company base, and the airfield where one of the replicas was used for screen tests, and believe me if it had flown it would have been impossible for the aviation community at large not to know about it.

His WWI aircraft, however, are flyable, indeed, with many of them he has obtained the original machining parts and blueprints, and the aircraft are, in fact, not replicas but 2000s era originals.

They also have a 3D printing set up at Omaka which can reproduce exactly any aircraft part you might want, from the original plans.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2013, 11:53 PM   #259
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I thought he was going to bring out a dambusters movie!!!
He would just be executive producing that. I believe Christian Rivers is (was) attached as director.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2013, 04:05 AM   #260
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
lots of little armistices too, guys taking a break and walking out into no mans land and hanging out with their enemies.... weird
Of course, the most famous of these is the Christmas truce. I can heartily recommend this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Night...ref=pd_sim_b_1

It's the story of the truce, put in historical and cultural context, with its main sources of information being interviews with those who were there, and contemporary letters home and journals.

As far as WWI goes in general, I saw a documentary about it maybe a decade or more ago and I forget absolutely everything about it except for just one snippet of information. They had someone who had been a soldier in the trenches being interviewed, and he said that the most horrible thing about it was the tea. Because after they'd been in the trenches for a while, the best and sometimes only source of water was the water that came from rain, often running down the sides of the trenches. At first, this was horrible because it tasted like mud. After a while it was even more horrible, because it tasted like the dead bodies of your friends.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2013, 01:38 PM   #261
Anerystos
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 839
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post

I've been tinkering on a WW1-based script for some time now, centered around the Xmas Truce and the battle of NC.
Sorry, three months late!

Can I refer you back to my original post citing Tony Ashworth's Trench Warfare 1914-18: The Live and Let Live System.

Essentially he argues that except for set piece battles, both sides actively avoided killing each other. He argues that it was actually an extension of the 1914 Christmas truce.

One bit I got wrong in my original post was that in previous times the commanders of the army led it into battle and took the same risks as the foot soldiers (the PBI of the time). It does seem that one objective of any battle was to capture the commanders - who seemed to be quite happy with that. The were held well out of the hand to hand combat, and could be ransomed for a fair old slice. They were safe.

Unfortunately for those captured at Agincourt (and who were sitting confidentally at the back secure in the knowledge of eventual ransom), our 'Enery V didn't like the idea of them possibly orchestrating a attack from the rear, and ordered his English archers to cut their throats. The English archers refused - apparently because it wasn't the done thing. The Welsh archers had no such scruples, and did the deed.
Anerystos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:33 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.