|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
16th February 2013, 11:41 AM | #241 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
Kipling perpetrated versification on this topic. Here's a stanza from "The Grave of the Hundred Head". http://www.wargames.co.uk/poems/Grave.htm
Quote:
Quote:
|
23rd February 2013, 02:41 AM | #242 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
23rd February 2013, 07:14 AM | #243 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
Is it really bigoted?
I assume that StankApe is talking about the leadership of Czarist Russia or the Soviet Union. If you send more troops into battle than smallarms, so that the some have tp pick up weapons from their dead comrades, and put security battalions behind to shoot deserters, it would suggest that the leadership was a bit cavalier with their troops. |
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
23rd February 2013, 07:17 AM | #244 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
24th February 2013, 01:15 AM | #245 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
|
The point of "Mud, Blood and Poppycock" by Gordon Corrigan wasn't that British casualties weren't high, it was that considering what Britain had to do they weren't unreasonable (and didn't prove that the generals were incompetent. In fact, going from a small army, with no mass mobilization planning (due to politicians) to a massive army capable of taking on the majority of the German Army was a major achievement. Unfortunately, you don't take on the main force of the German Army without taking major casualties.
|
1st March 2013, 11:59 AM | #246 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
Agreed. He made a pretty good case that the British high command was not uniquely incompetent, and might even have been more competent than some of the others. It was some of his interpretation of the claims. For example his idea that "only" 1/8 of all French males born in 1896 were killed in the war. Or that the first day of the Somme wasn't a complete waste of life. *With hindsight* doing everything except actually trying to advance on that day would have achieved as much. Corrigan's reasoning seemed to be, "Something had to be done to reduce the pressure on Verdun, this was something, so it was not pointless" |
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
1st March 2013, 03:15 PM | #247 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
|
Well, it obviously wasn't pointless as it stopped the war from being lost. (The Germans had to cease attacking at Verdun allowing the French to gain the initiative and the Germans had to put in [IIRC] an additional 42 divisions into the Somme, of which 35 were sent against the British).
Of course things could have been better but here are some of the factors that Haig was dealing with: 1) Without a sizable British offensive the French Army would collapse (based on the words of the French CinC to Haig) 2) The attack could start no later than the beginning of July (based on the words of the French CinC to Haig. Note that Haig would have preferred Mid August to allow more preparation) 3) The location of the offensive would have to be on the Somme (Haig would have preferred Ypres as there was actually ground of value there) 4) The Germans had been able to spend 18 months improving their positions on the Somme 5) Pre-registering guns and sound-ranging anti battery fire techniques had not yet been developed 6) A lot of shells were still shrapnel instead of the high explosive that was needed against the German wire and entrenchments Now, it would have been nice if Haig had been able to commit the BEF to battle at a time and place of his choosing, when he had all of the necessary tools and techniques… but that wasn't possible under the pressure of circumstances. Haig (and his political overseers) were given a choice: attack on the Somme or lose the war (which is what abandoning the French to their fate at Verdun would probably have meant). They chose to attack. What followed was talked about, in general terms, by Corrigan somewhere else in the book (apologies if this is somewhat inexact, it's from memory): "The British do not have a history of conscription, or a militarized society. This has obvious cultural benefits and is a valued part of our culture. However, when the nation is plunged into total war and forced to commit sizable land forces this means that there will always be a Somme, or the equivalent, where a hastily raised force is pitched against a well trained, long prepared, numerous enemy and heavy casualties will then be inevitable. Either accept that, or do not go to war in the first place". |
2nd March 2013, 01:40 PM | #248 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
3rd March 2013, 10:35 AM | #249 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
|
The first day was bad (though not an unmitigated disaster; the French and the southern part of the british line did better).
The question in a lot of ww1 battles Is perhaps "given the information available to the general and diplomatic/strategic demands he was under... Would you have done things so differently? As I have read more and more about the first world war, my views on the british generals have evolved from "blo blackadder" to "professionals doing a very difficult job in the most difficult of circumstances". |
5th March 2013, 09:16 PM | #250 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,504
|
Yeah! The first and last sequences are competitive with any war movie I've ever seen from the States, from an effects perspective! I loved the fact that they were fighting with axes! Canadian toughness.
Quote:
They blew their effects budget on the first and last sequences. There was no reason to have an armless man back home with the actor's arm clearly tucked in his shirt. I hope that actor isn't genuinely armless, because the movie made him look like it was tucked in his shirt! Terrible. I don't even mind a love story, but the whole middle hour was CanCon filler. Yes, it gave the contrast between the war and the homefront... Bah. |
__________________
This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key |
|
6th March 2013, 12:32 PM | #251 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
Peter Jackson has a film on Gallipoli on his to do list. He has stated it will be different in scope and approach then the 1982 Austrailian film on the topic, in that it will focus on the Intial landings.Could be interesting.
|
6th March 2013, 01:04 PM | #252 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
|
|
6th March 2013, 02:04 PM | #253 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
|
6th March 2013, 02:22 PM | #254 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
<Derail>
A lot of the practicing for Operation Chastise was on a local reservoir in the Derwent Valley, and there are sometimes ceremonies marking the occasion. On a couple of occasions, the remaining one has flown fairly low over our house on the way to the reservoirs. Quite impressive, especially when you are not expecting it and then hear the four Merlin engines, the look up and see a rather unmistakable shape in the sky. </Derail> |
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
6th March 2013, 02:34 PM | #255 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
That there is only one Lancaster that is flyable left ,and that it is not going to be risked doing some of the flying that the movie would require, is why Jackson had 3 flying replicas built.
|
6th March 2013, 02:39 PM | #256 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
6th March 2013, 05:44 PM | #257 |
Scholar
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Hutt Vegas, NZ
Posts: 112
|
Just to correct, there are two airworthy Lancasters; one in the UK and one in Canada. The Canadian one is privately owned and operated, and the UK is still on strength with the Royal Air Force. Neither is in a configuration that represents the Dambuster Lancasters, and any role for them in the movie would thus be limited (besides being located thousands of miles away from the production base).
The replicas Jackson had constructed (along with a couple of Wellingtons apparently, that have not been seen in public) are strictly static, or possibly taxiable, shells only. They are not flyable aircraft in any way. I am local both to his production company base, and the airfield where one of the replicas was used for screen tests, and believe me if it had flown it would have been impossible for the aviation community at large not to know about it. |
6th March 2013, 11:47 PM | #258 |
lorcutus.tolere
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
|
His WWI aircraft, however, are flyable, indeed, with many of them he has obtained the original machining parts and blueprints, and the aircraft are, in fact, not replicas but 2000s era originals. They also have a 3D printing set up at Omaka which can reproduce exactly any aircraft part you might want, from the original plans. |
__________________
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge. |
|
6th March 2013, 11:53 PM | #259 |
lorcutus.tolere
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
|
|
__________________
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge. |
|
7th March 2013, 04:05 AM | #260 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
|
Of course, the most famous of these is the Christmas truce. I can heartily recommend this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Night...ref=pd_sim_b_1
It's the story of the truce, put in historical and cultural context, with its main sources of information being interviews with those who were there, and contemporary letters home and journals. As far as WWI goes in general, I saw a documentary about it maybe a decade or more ago and I forget absolutely everything about it except for just one snippet of information. They had someone who had been a soldier in the trenches being interviewed, and he said that the most horrible thing about it was the tea. Because after they'd been in the trenches for a while, the best and sometimes only source of water was the water that came from rain, often running down the sides of the trenches. At first, this was horrible because it tasted like mud. After a while it was even more horrible, because it tasted like the dead bodies of your friends. |
20th April 2013, 01:38 PM | #261 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 839
|
Sorry, three months late!
Can I refer you back to my original post citing Tony Ashworth's Trench Warfare 1914-18: The Live and Let Live System. Essentially he argues that except for set piece battles, both sides actively avoided killing each other. He argues that it was actually an extension of the 1914 Christmas truce. One bit I got wrong in my original post was that in previous times the commanders of the army led it into battle and took the same risks as the foot soldiers (the PBI of the time). It does seem that one objective of any battle was to capture the commanders - who seemed to be quite happy with that. The were held well out of the hand to hand combat, and could be ransomed for a fair old slice. They were safe. Unfortunately for those captured at Agincourt (and who were sitting confidentally at the back secure in the knowledge of eventual ransom), our 'Enery V didn't like the idea of them possibly orchestrating a attack from the rear, and ordered his English archers to cut their throats. The English archers refused - apparently because it wasn't the done thing. The Welsh archers had no such scruples, and did the deed. |
Thread Tools | |
|
|