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Tags donald trump , political speculation

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Old 14th November 2016, 11:44 AM   #361
luchog
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I've always found that one of the more bizarre arguments against Clinton.

Particularly since most anti-Clinton types who didn't support Trump were supporters of Bernie Sanders, who is, guess what, a career politician since at least 1972.
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.
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Old 14th November 2016, 11:46 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Personally, I'm more offended by people who go through spouses like Kleenex, like Groper-Elect Trump and senior advisers like Giuliani and Gingrich.

But you go right ahead and feel virtuous because you voted against the experienced, monogamous candidate.
Positively surreal, isn't it?
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Old 14th November 2016, 11:48 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Do you believe that 1/4 of the population is "deplorable" and "irredeemable"?

Deplorable? Quite possibly more than that, given the prevalence of anti-GLBTQ sentiment and legislation in most of the US. Not to mention the widespread racism, sexism, and other bigotry; nor the profound anti-intellectualism common to all levels of American culture; particularly in the highly-religious regions of the country. I'm not sure how you fail to see that considering why fora like this exist.

Irredeemable? No one is irredeemable, but a great many of them are actively opposing any change toward a more progressive, liberal, and tolerance society.

Quote:
Do you believe that it is in any way acceptable to treat people in that fashion regardless of what you might believe of them?

When necessary, yes. I don't believe in coddling and pandering to racists, sexists, homophobes, transphobes, or religious fanatics.
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.
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Old 14th November 2016, 11:51 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I do, however, maintain that he does NOT owe his election to all the millions of bigots that democrats have assumed exist out there.

Well, it's hard to counter deeply held beliefs with actual evidence, especially when people ignore the evidence. The prevalence of religious fanaticism and alt.med woo is a pretty solid illustration of that fact.

Quote:
It would probably be worthwhile to find support for your viewpoint that is representative of the vote, not of the polls from more than 6 months ago.

You didn't bother to actually look at the links, did you? You do know what an "exit poll" is, right?
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

Last edited by luchog; 14th November 2016 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 14th November 2016, 11:56 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Either they didn't know about trumps bigotry or did not view it as a deal breaker. Pick which one it is, being uneducated or tacit endorsement of bigotry those are really your only options.

Listening to NPR in the run-up to the election, the amount of denialism and cognitive dissonance in the Trump supporting crowd was astonishing. On the one hand they'd talk about how "refreshing" it was to have a candidate who was "willing to speak his mind". Then, when he started spewing racist and sexist garbage, they turned around and insisted that "that's just rhetoric, he doesn't really mean it."

They may not be directly racist, but they were perfectly happy to excuse racist rhetoric and give their tacit support to it (and IMO a great deal of them were very likely in denial about their own racism as well).

Of course, that's not including the equal number of interviewees who expressed similarly racist and sexist comments.
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.
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Old 14th November 2016, 12:01 PM   #366
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By the way, Emily's Cat, did you criticize Obama for his lack of experience when he first ran for President?
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Old 14th November 2016, 12:09 PM   #367
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You can deny the blue-collar issue all you want. But a 5% swing in the rust belt would have landed us an entirely different result. A mere 1 in 20 people in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan.

The labor wing was an integral component of the Democratic coalition. I've worked trade skills at various times in my life. Yes, there's a lot of latent bigotry there. However, they will happily vote for a champion of equality if they think it will alleviate the pain in their wallets. We happily accepted that arrangement for decades. We enacted many policies that eroded (but certainly didn't eliminate) inequality because of this. Sometimes getting what you want depends on keeping your tongue in check.

Let me, as an unabashed progressive, turn this around on some of you.

Maybe if your desire to continue the march of progress in these areas was more important to you than your conspicuous virtue signalling and the smug sense of satisfaction you get from spewing moralistic judgments at others, this wouldn't have happened.

By the way, if you feel a bit incensed at that and are feeling a knee-jerk reaction starting to develop from deep inside you to tell me off...you might be closer to understanding how we lost this thing.

We can't govern based on our wise, benevolent, enlightened, and 'superior' values if we don't have the votes to govern to begin with. That's the reality of politics.

ETA: the labor wing AND the progressive wing (telling environmental activists concerned about the future of our species on this planet to "get a life" doesn't exactly win support) both being cut out of the coalition leaves what can basically be described as a fringe coalition of minority groups beating the drum of identity politics. We've now become exactly what we were jeering about, a shrinking party clinging to a few remaining enclaves and districts.

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Old 14th November 2016, 12:10 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You can deny the blue-collar issue all you want.
Or, we can ask for evidence for the claim. How about that?
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Old 14th November 2016, 12:17 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If I were Obama I'd be tempted to slip laxatives into Trump's coffee. Or PCP. Or both!
Definitely both!!!!!
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Old 14th November 2016, 12:26 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Or, we can ask for evidence for the claim. How about that?
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/1...ization-231223

"Nationally, Clinton outperformed Trump among union households by just 8 percent, the smallest Democratic advantage since Walter Mondale’s failed campaign against Ronald Reagan in 1984. For a more recent perspective, President Barack Obama won union households by 18 percent in 2012."

So there's a 10-point slide nationwide.

"Clinton’s poor performance among union households appeared to especially damage her in crucial Midwestern states. Obama won Ohio in 2012, besting Romney in those households by 23 percentage points. Clinton actually lost Ohio’s union households to Trump by 9 points, according to exit polls. The state went to Trump."

A 14-point 31-point slide in a critical state. (ETA: math fail)

"Michigan would have been an easy victory any other year — Democrats had won the state since 1992 — but it’s currently still too close to call. Exit polls show Clinton holds only a 13 percent advantage among union households there. Obama beat Romney in union households by a whopping 33 percent in 2012. A similar scenario played out in Wisconsin this year, another state that went to Trump."

A 20-point slide in a democratic stronghold.

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Old 14th November 2016, 12:29 PM   #371
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...and?

The claim was, the way I understood it, that regular joes were angry at the establishment and felt ignored by it. That's what I'm asking evidence for.
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Old 14th November 2016, 12:32 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Wow. No. The offensive assumptions in here are part of the problem.

Do you not understand that this attitude from you is exactly why democrats lost this election? You have decided that because I didn't vote of your preferred candidate, I am a bigot who doesn't care about gay people? You've decided that because I didn't do what you wanted me to do, I'm sanguine about the potential risk to others? That's ridiculous and extraordinarily insulting.

That's twice now that you've felt justified impugning me solely because you've assumed that a lack of a vote for your guy gives you that right. This is in direct opposition to my actual opinions, and to the viewpoints I have consistently expressed on this board.

I will ask you to politely redirect your ire and to interact with me based on my own opinions and my own behavior. Stop presuming that you can treat me with disrespect, derision, and hatred just because I didn't like your political candidate.
At the moment I am more feeling sorry for you - nothing I said was meant to start a fight with good people. Trump is not and never will be good people. His white house people will never be good people. The republicker senators and representatives that will work to ruin this country are not good people. And the people who are not simply misguided and mislead by the Trumpers but actually are racists, homophobes, anti-women, etc. are not good people. None of them should represent the US but now they will.

Thus I have no interest in their continued existence and will not care if same does not occur. They deserve the same that came to Hitler and his followers -and all their like.


ETA. And to be very clear, I do not remotely dislike you and I am pretty sure you realize that. I do not in any way consider you a bad person and disagree vehemently with anyone who does!!!!!

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Old 14th November 2016, 12:35 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You can deny the blue-collar issue all you want. But a 5% swing in the rust belt would have landed us an entirely different result. A mere 1 in 20 people in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan.

The labor wing was an integral component of the Democratic coalition. I've worked trade skills at various times in my life. Yes, there's a lot of latent bigotry there. However, they will happily vote for a champion of equality if they think it will alleviate the pain in their wallets. We happily accepted that arrangement for decades. We enacted many policies that eroded (but certainly didn't eliminate) inequality because of this. Sometimes getting what you want depends on keeping your tongue in check.

Let me, as an unabashed progressive, turn this around on some of you.

Maybe if your desire to continue the march of progress in these areas was more important to you than your conspicuous virtue signalling and the smug sense of satisfaction you get from spewing moralistic judgments at others, this wouldn't have happened.
That there are large swaches of the country that are unattractive to moving industry to? Sure and the industry that is there is not going to be like it was 30 years ago. It is more productive with a lot less people. The fact is that there are a lot of towns that no longer make economic sense and they will go away or end up being supported solely on subsidies. But that is too much truth for them.
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Old 14th November 2016, 12:44 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You can deny the blue-collar issue all you want.
Or, we can ask for evidence for the claim. How about that?
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
...and?

The claim was, the way I understood it, that regular joes were angry at the establishment and felt ignored by it. That's what I'm asking evidence for.
Goalposts?
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Old 14th November 2016, 12:46 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Goalposts?
No, we may simply not be talking about the same thing. It was never my impression that "unions" were the disenfranchised party, here.
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Old 14th November 2016, 12:46 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That there are large swaches of the country that are unattractive to moving industry to? Sure and the industry that is there is not going to be like it was 30 years ago. It is more productive with a lot less people. The fact is that there are a lot of towns that no longer make economic sense and they will go away or end up being supported solely on subsidies. But that is too much truth for them.
The truth you are unwilling to accept is that the truth doesn't matter if you want to win and if you don't win, it doesn't matter how right you are.
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Old 14th November 2016, 12:51 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The truth you are unwilling to accept is that the truth doesn't matter if you want to win and if you don't win, it doesn't matter how right you are.
And they will be happy when they lose their health care. And medicare becomes privatised as well. That is what they voted for.

Or are they going to be whiny people who don't understand a thing about personal responsibility like this guy.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hilt...12-column.html

He was all personal responsibility until the check came do then he was all "bail me out".

When people have decided to reject the truth what are you supposed to do?
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Old 14th November 2016, 12:58 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And they will be happy when they lose their health care. And medicare becomes privatised as well. That is what they voted for.

Or are they going to be whiny people who don't understand a thing about personal responsibility like this guy.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hilt...12-column.html

He was all personal responsibility until the check came do then he was all "bail me out".

When people have decided to reject the truth what are you supposed to do?
Whatever it takes to win, even if that means courting people who disagree with you to do so.

Because if you are out of power and incapable of defending anyone anyways, what difference does it make?
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:12 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is why he wants to lower the bar on libel suits. Haven't you paid any attention to trumps official policies?
It's just not going to fly. And I'm not sure Trump has any "official" policies or any policies at all for that matter.

Trump agrees that he's a sexual predator. There's no grounds for a libel suit and it would be exceedingly stupid of him to pursue one. I think he's shrewd enough to know that.
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:15 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It's just not going to fly. And I'm not sure Trump has any "official" policies or any policies at all for that matter.

Trump agrees that he's a sexual predator. There's no grounds for a libel suit and it would be exceedingly stupid of him to pursue one. I think he's shrewd enough to know that.
Plus the current libel laws protect him from the asinine things he says.
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:21 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Plus the current libel laws protect him from the asinine things he says.
Isn't he going to "open up" those libel laws to go after journalists and comedians?
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:26 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, we may simply not be talking about the same thing. It was never my impression that "unions" were the disenfranchised party, here.
Well, exit polling doesn't have a category for "labor" or for "regular joes" so I'm using the closest possible data within reach.

Do you have data to support your position?
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:28 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Plus the current libel laws protect him from the asinine things he says.
Good point.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Isn't he going to "open up" those libel laws to go after journalists and comedians?
He doesn't have the power.
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:30 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Whatever it takes to win, even if that means courting people who disagree with you to do so.

Because if you are out of power and incapable of defending anyone anyways, what difference does it make?
Agree with this, but also I don't think the concerns about racism, sexism, whatever-ism du jour, were dichotomous with voters to the extent that some liberal types are portraying after this election. A blue-collar voter in Ohio might simply not be that enthralled with who gets to use which bathroom in North Carolina or who makes cakes for whom in Arizona when he used to have a good job building Jeep Cherokees and now he's working at Lowe's for half as much and fewer benefits while his hard-earned skills uselessly diminish with age.
A likely-empty promise from one candidate still amounts to more attention than the outright derision offered by the other.

Not worrying much about the plight of some marginalized group some other place and instead focusing on your own self interests might be selfish ultimately, but that doesn't make it racist. It doesn't even make it unreasonable.

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Old 14th November 2016, 01:34 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah, that's the same reason why I dislike neurosurgeons and physicists. How DARE they know more about their field than I do?

How do you know that? How do you know why she stayed with him? For all you know they managed to put it behind them and move on.
Thank you. On both points.
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:35 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Whatever it takes to win, even if that means courting people who disagree with you to do so.

Because if you are out of power and incapable of defending anyone anyways, what difference does it make?
How do you court people who disagree with reality? What they want simply isn't possible.
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:36 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Agree with this, but also I don't think the concerns about racism, sexism, whatever-ism du jour, were dichotomous with voters to the extent that some liberal types are portraying after this election. A blue-collar voter in Ohio might simply not be that enthralled with who gets to use which bathroom in North Carolina who makes cakes for whom in Arizona when he used to have a good job build Jeep Cherokees and now he's working at Lowe's for half as much and fewer benefits while his hard-earned skills uselessly diminish with age.
A likely-empty promise from one candidate still amounts to more attention than the outright derision offered by the other.

Not worrying much about the plight of some marginalized group some other place and instead focusing on your own self interests might be selfish ultimately, but that doesn't make it racist. It doesn't even make it unreasonable.
We are as one.

:9

He validated their plight. That's the difference.

What was Bill's most memorable campaign line?

"I feel your pain"

Then he got elected and signed NAFTA into law...

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Old 14th November 2016, 01:42 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The message that you (and many other democrats in this thread) are sending is that if people disagree with you, they're dumb, ignorant, deserving of scorn, and should be ignored.

That's a very short-sighted, exclusionary, and full-of-fail song to be singing.
Just to be clear, I'm not a Democrat. I'm a registered independent and don't have particular loyalty to either party, though I've preferred the Democratic candidate the last several presidential elections.

I don't claim that the Trump voters ought to be ignored, but sure, I'll happily agree that damn near anyone who voted for Trump has acted remarkably ignorantly in this respect. I say "damn near", because I suppose there might be some circumstances in which that vote is in one's interest.

I include my family in this judgment. I am embarrassed by the fact that they have been hornswaggled by a transparent charlatan. I don't claim that they are rubes in every respect, but yes, they made a horrible choice in this election.

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Old 14th November 2016, 01:44 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
That's not what he said. It's not the act of disagreeing. It's when the disagreement is based on ignorance and the ignorant refuse to be educated. When people think reality is a matter of opinion then yes their opinion should be ignored.
Actually, I didn't say that their opinion should be ignored. I said that these decisions shouldn't be defended, but that's not the same thing.
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:46 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
<snip>
I don't claim that the Trump voters ought to be ignored, but sure, I'll happily agree that damn near anyone who voted for Trump has acted remarkably ignorantly in this respect. I say "damn near", because I suppose there might be some circumstances in which that vote is in one's interest.
"And some, I assume, are good people.” -Trump

Think about it.
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:46 PM   #391
phiwum
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Wrong.

can we get an animated .gif for that?
Let's not. Let's instead take the time to defend the claim that someone else is wrong and explain ourselves.
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:47 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Yeah. That's why you don't go to a career doctor for your health, or a career mechanic for your car's.

And why you're clearly upset with career politicians like Mike Pence and Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell and...

Seriously, this is a stupid argument. She's been a two-term U.S. Senator and Secretary of State. That's called "experience". Trump has no experience in national service and has repeatedly demonstrated he does not understand how the Federal government operates. But that's OK; after all, he didn't know anything about airlines and look how successful he was with Trump Shuttle.

And now you're the judge of what people do in their marriages, and an expert on exactly what went on between the Clintons.

Personally, I'm more offended by people who go through spouses like Kleenex, like Groper-Elect Trump and senior advisers like Giuliani and Gingrich.

But you go right ahead and feel virtuous because you voted against the experienced, monogamous candidate.
Hear, hear!
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:47 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Particularly since most anti-Clinton types who didn't support Trump were supporters of Bernie Sanders, who is, guess what, a career politician since at least 1972.
Ironically, I think Bernie Sanders would have beaten Trump if he had run instead of Clinton.





.
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:50 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Actually, I didn't say that their opinion should be ignored. I said that these decisions shouldn't be defended, but that's not the same thing.
Sorry for misrepresenting what you said.
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:51 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"And some, I assume, are good people.” -Trump

Think about it.
Sorry, I don't get your point.

Perhaps I should be clear on one point: Having an unqualified, short-tempered and ADD president is a very bad thing for most Americans. For a few in special circumstances (his family is an obvious example), a Trump presidency will be a boon.

I don't think that this is comparable at all to your quote from Trump.
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Old 14th November 2016, 01:52 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Sorry for misrepresenting what you said.
No problem. You were responding to a post which had misrepresented what I said.
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Old 14th November 2016, 02:04 PM   #397
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*double post*

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 14th November 2016 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 14th November 2016, 02:06 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Sorry, I don't get your point.

Perhaps I should be clear on one point: Having an unqualified, short-tempered and ADD president is a very bad thing for most Americans. For a few in special circumstances (his family is an obvious example), a Trump presidency will be a boon.

I don't think that this is comparable at all to your quote from Trump.
I agree, he'll be a disaster.

My point is that blistering criticism of wide swaths of people who's circumstances you seem unwilling to understand is not mitigated by a half-sentence qualifier at the end.

ETA: Okay, now I see your intent was to indicate a few rich people might benefit. I was coming at it from the reasoning of people who believed voting for him to be in their benefit.
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Old 14th November 2016, 02:18 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I include my family in this judgment. I am embarrassed by the fact that they have been hornswaggled by a transparent charlatan. I don't claim that they are rubes in every respect, but yes, they made a horrible choice in this election.
How about the KKK? they really like his policies.
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Old 14th November 2016, 02:20 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"And some, I assume, are good people.” -Trump

Think about it.
There is rather a big difference, one is categorizing people by their actions not their origin. I figure lots of them are nice people, they are just nice people who are comfortable voting for misogynistic racists.
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