Maybe Trump will not be such a terrible president.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

I agree, he'll be a disaster.

My point is that blistering criticism of wide swaths of people who's circumstances you seem unwilling to understand is not mitigated by a half-sentence qualifier at the end.

I hope that my explanation cleared that up. I agree that these folk believed they were making a vote in their interest. I find it extraordinarily unlikely that a Trump presidency will really improve their circumstances over a Clinton presidency. Rather, I believe that most of them made a clearly wrong choice.

The fact that you agree that Trump will likely be a disaster suggests that you agree with my claim. A disastrous presidency will not benefit most of the people who voted for Trump.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

I agree, he'll be a disaster.

My point is that blistering criticism of wide swaths of people who's circumstances you seem unwilling to understand is not mitigated by a half-sentence qualifier at the end.

ETA: Okay, now I see your intent was to indicate a few rich people might benefit. I was coming at it from the reasoning of people who believed voting for him to be in their benefit.

Sorry, I responded to your earlier post, without the ETA.

I obviously agree that most persons voting for Trump believed that this vote was in their interest.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by phiwum

I hope that my explanation cleared that up. I agree that these folk believed they were making a vote in their interest. I find it extraordinarily unlikely that a Trump presidency will really improve their circumstances over a Clinton presidency. Rather, I believe that most of them made a clearly wrong choice.

But he is going to end gay marriage and abortion. That is a good reason to vote for the racist right?

[Hlafordlaes]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

The message that you (and many other democrats in this thread) are sending is that if people disagree with you, they're dumb, ignorant, deserving of scorn, and should be ignored.

That's a very short-sighted, exclusionary, and full-of-fail song to be singing.

The message should be that it is easy to disagree in no uncertain terms with unyielding ideology, stodgy dogma, magical thinking, faith-based reasoning, incessant model-gazing in economics and other social sciences, and so on... That way, one only heaps scorn when and where due.

Which, in today's world, has names like Farage, Trump, Le Pen, and Wilders. These are the kind of leaders who sing swan songs and mesmerize the... mesmerizable. I'd say fart cushions and popped paper bags without warning are in great need these days, just to do one's civic duty. It's unpleasant at first, but from time to time, people snap out of it. History does have its examples to learn from, and some of them are worth avoiding.

[Stacko]

Originally Posted by lionking

As is Obama's class. I think very few would be as magnanimous with an idiot like Trump.

Obama, the first African American President, has to give Remedial Presidency lessons to a racist who called him an affirmative-action admit to Harvard. It's a fitting example of how minorities and African Americans in particular are treated in the US.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by sts60

Yeah. That's why you don't go to a career doctor for your health, or a career mechanic for your car's.

And why you're clearly upset with career politicians like Mike Pence and Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell and...

I am. You might really want to stop making assumptions about me.

Originally Posted by sts60

Seriously, this is a stupid argument. She's been a two-term U.S. Senator and Secretary of State. That's called "experience". Trump has no experience in national service and has repeatedly demonstrated he does not understand how the Federal government operates. But that's OK; after all, he didn't know anything about airlines and look how successful he was with Trump Shuttle.

I contend that it's experience at how to make back-room deals, how to lobby, how to make hand-shake agreements with big corporations so they'll help them get elected to a higher office next cycle, so they can climb that ladder and be the one who wins. It's not necessarily experience in actively working for the betterment of their constituents and the citizenry at large.

It's a whole host of "experienced politicians" letting the government get shut down so federal employees don't get paid... because that's a powerful bargaining chip. Not because it's actual real people who are being punished for their "experienced politician" pissing match or anything.

Originally Posted by sts60

And now you're the judge of what people do in their marriages, and an expert on exactly what went on between the Clintons.

Personally, I'm more offended by people who go through spouses like Kleenex, like Groper-Elect Trump and senior advisers like Giuliani and Gingrich.

But you go right ahead and feel virtuous because you voted against the experienced, monogamous candidate.

I'm offended by people who cheat on their spouses. I'm even more offended by women who are expected to forgive those wandering spouses and stick by their men. I'm even more offended when one of those women is hypothetically supposed to represent strides forward for women's rights.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by sts60

By the way, Emily's Cat, did you criticize Obama for his lack of experience when he first ran for President?

No, I didn't. I had hope that he might not yet be a part of the machine.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

There is rather a big difference, one is categorizing people by their actions not their origin. I figure lots of them are nice people, they are just nice people who are comfortable voting for misogynistic racists.

I see the difference plain as day.

But it's a distinction without a difference in the mind of a person who is fairly certain they were just insulted and aren't listening to you any more.

ETA: Preemptive statement to say that if you think telling them that they deserved said insult is going to work, you might still not be getting the point. Reminder: the point is that if you are out of power, what good does it do?

[fishbob]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

The message that you (and many other democrats in this thread) are sending is that if people disagree with you, they're dumb, ignorant, deserving of scorn, and should be ignored.

That's a very short-sighted, exclusionary, and full-of-fail song to be singing.

When there are only 2 realistic options; and one of them is dumb, ignorant, and deserving of scorn; it should be ignored. Selection of the ignorant choice is short-sighted and will result in all kinds of embarrassing fail.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by fuelair

At the moment I am more feeling sorry for you - nothing I said was meant to start a fight with good people. Trump is not and never will be good people. His white house people will never be good people. The republicker senators and representatives that will work to ruin this country are not good people. And the people who are not simply misguided and mislead by the Trumpers but actually are racists, homophobes, anti-women, etc. are not good people. None of them should represent the US but now they will.

Thus I have no interest in their continued existence and will not care if same does not occur. They deserve the same that came to Hitler and his followers -and all their like.

I understand your emotion on this. It just seems like an awfully big brush you're using.

ETA: Why are you feeling sorry for me?

Originally Posted by fuelair

ETA. And to be very clear, I do not remotely dislike you and I am pretty sure you realize that. I do not in any way consider you a bad person and disagree vehemently with anyone who does!!!!!

Thank you.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by fishbob

When there are only 2 realistic options; and one of them is dumb, ignorant, and deserving of scorn; it should be ignored. Selection of the ignorant choice is short-sighted and will result in all kinds of embarrassing fail.

How did ignoring it work out for us?

We lost.

Yet here we are 'doubling down' on the strategy that resulted in a loss.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Joecool

Ironically, I think Bernie Sanders would have beaten Trump if he had run instead of Clinton.

.

So do I. I would have voted for him, despite thinking that many of his policies were waaaayyy to far to the left for me.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

Isn't he going to "open up" those libel laws to go after journalists and comedians?

That is not going to fly. I doubt we will hear anything more about it.

[fishbob]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Do you believe that 1/4 of the population is "deplorable" and "irredeemable"? Do you believe that it is in any way acceptable to treat people in that fashion regardless of what you might believe of them?

Yeah, that's about right.

The only good thing about Trump winning is that some of these **** bags are now a bit more public about it, making it easier to recognize and avoid them.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by fishbob

Yeah, that's about right.

The only good thing about Trump winning is that some of these **** bags are now a bit more public about it, making it easier to recognize and avoid them.

Speaking as someone who grew up in very culturally diverse places, with a mixed family, I just haven't seen that 1 out of every 4 people I meet is a bigot. It's just not there.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to pretend that a huge swath of your fellow citizens deserve no consideration, no respect, and are perfectly acceptable targets for mockery, derision, and hate... go right ahead. I'm sure it will help win the next election. People really like being insulted, after all.

[Spindrift]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Speaking as someone who grew up in very culturally diverse places, with a mixed family, I just haven't seen that 1 out of every 4 people I meet is a bigot. It's just not there.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to pretend that a huge swath of your fellow citizens deserve no consideration, no respect, and are perfectly acceptable targets for mockery, derision, and hate... go right ahead. I'm sure it will help win the next election. People really like being insulted, after all.

You're defending the people that do the insulting.

[dudalb]

I guess for some people it is more important for people to sneer at and feel superior to blue collar workers then to win elections.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by dudalb

That is not going to fly. I doubt we will hear anything more about it.

I wasn't being serious. He has a very low chance of success there, assuming he'd ever try it.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

Well, exit polling doesn't have a category for "labor" or for "regular joes" so I'm using the closest possible data within reach.

Do you have data to support your position?

That what? That poor, unskilled people with no jobs who rose up against the establishment DON'T make up the bulk of Trump's support?

I do actually.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I guess for some people it is more important for people to sneer at and feel superior to blue collar workers then to win elections.

Haven't we had this conversation already?

[fishbob]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Speaking as someone who grew up in very culturally diverse places, with a mixed family, I just haven't seen that 1 out of every 4 people I meet is a bigot. It's just not there.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to pretend that a huge swath of your fellow citizens deserve no consideration, no respect, and are perfectly acceptable targets for mockery, derision, and hate... go right ahead. I'm sure it will help win the next election. People really like being insulted, after all.

As someone who grew up in a non-culturally diverse place and has worked in oil-field and construction for a long time, I would not be surprised if the percentage were even higher.

[Spindrift]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I guess for some people it is more important for people to sneer at and feel superior to blue collar workers then to win elections.

How does one win them over? Obviously one could spout the same racist, misogynistic, xenophobic crap that they seem to eat up because reason and logic does not seem to work.

Please explain what can be done? What should Democrats do in the future to garner the 'blue collar worker' vote?

Promise to open more coal mines? Promise free guns? Promise to bring back manufacturing jobs that left 30 years ago? Which lies will they believe next election?

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

I'm offended by people who cheat on their spouses.

Well good, that takes one candidate for president off the list.

Quote:

I'm even more offended by women who are expected to forgive those wandering spouses and stick by their men. I'm even more offended when one of those women is hypothetically supposed to represent strides forward for women's rights.

Huh, so a woman is not free to decide whether to continue in her marriage or not after her spouse cheats? That seems very odd. AS if she can't be trusted with such a big decision.

I know several women who caught their husbands cheating. It is about an even split between those who decided to work through it and those who didn't. I wouldn't presume to make that decision for any of them.

And you are more offended that a woman stuck with her husband, whether it be due to religious beliefs or genuine affection, than you are by a man who has cheated on two wives. You really don't expect much of men, do you?

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Do you believe that 1/4 of the population is "deplorable" and "irredeemable"? Do you believe that it is in any way acceptable to treat people in that fashion regardless of what you might believe of them?

Do you think most Mexican immigrants are rapists?

Do you think most Muslims are terrorist?

Do you think most blacks live is squalor?

Why did one candidate get to hide behind hyperbole while the other didn't? Because a lot of people actually believe these things.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Spindrift

How does one win them over? Obviously one could spout the same racist, misogynistic, xenophobic crap that they seem to eat up because reason and logic does not seem to work.

Please explain what can be done? What should Democrats do in the future to garner the 'blue collar worker' vote?

Promise to open more coal mines? Promise free guns? Promise to bring back manufacturing jobs that left 30 years ago? Which lies will they believe next election?

So without Blue Collar support in the Rust Belt how do the Democrats win?

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl

A likely-empty promise from one candidate still amounts to more attention than the outright derision offered by the other.

.

THIS.
What amazes me is how so many Liberals just refuse to admit the Democratic Party has a Blue Collar Worker problem.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

I see the difference plain as day.

But it's a distinction without a difference in the mind of a person who is fairly certain they were just insulted and aren't listening to you any more.

ETA: Preemptive statement to say that if you think telling them that they deserved said insult is going to work, you might still not be getting the point. Reminder: the point is that if you are out of power, what good does it do?

Oh no I insulted people who are happy that white nationalists are going to be in the white house!

They got what they wanted, they should be happy. They shouldn't be ashamed of who they are. And that is either people to ignorant to know trump had massive ties to white nationists, people who liked that about him or people who didn't care.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by fishbob

When there are only 2 realistic options; and one of them is dumb, ignorant, and deserving of scorn; it should be ignored. Selection of the ignorant choice is short-sighted and will result in all kinds of embarrassing fail.

Hey being dumb and ignorant is the better option here, otherwise they are at best not bothered by supporting a racist.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

How did ignoring it work out for us?

We lost.

Yet here we are 'doubling down' on the strategy that resulted in a loss.

This is rural america they are supposed to be all about personal responsibility, then they should accept being held accountable for their votes.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Speaking as someone who grew up in very culturally diverse places, with a mixed family, I just haven't seen that 1 out of every 4 people I meet is a bigot. It's just not there.

That is about the percentage of people who think 9/11 was done by the government. They might well not feel comfortable discussing things around you. It seems at least that high for say my coworkers.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I guess for some people it is more important for people to sneer at and feel superior to blue collar workers then to win elections.

I don't feel superior to them, just trump voters.

[NoahFence]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

No, I didn't. I had hope that he might not yet be a part of the machine.

What machine is that? There appear to be two. One that elects articulate and intelligent leaders, and one that.... Trump.

[dudalb]

What is really sad is that this contempt for the Blue Collar Voter is just Playing into the Right's hand.

[luchog]

Originally Posted by dudalb

I guess for some people it is more important for people to sneer at and feel superior to blue collar workers then to win elections.

Originally Posted by dudalb

What is really sad is that this contempt for the Blue Collar Voter is just Playing into the Right's hand.

And you're another one who isn't getting it. It's not blue-collar workers who are being sneered at. In fact, the blue-collar vote was fairly evenly split between Trump and Clinton. As they were, they were only a small part of Trump's overall support base.

The bulk of Trump's support came from middle- and upper-middle-class white voters. People who are generally better educated and should know better.

Unfortunately, that's also the demographic which tends to believe in conspiracy theories and alt.med; is most likely to be partially or entirely anti-science supporting client-change denialism, creationism, and abstinence-only sex education; and is more likely to be highly religious types involved with Charismatic corporate megachurches like the ones run by Peter Popoff, Benny Hinn, or the late Oral Roberts (rather than the more traditional Roman Catholic or liberal Methodist or Presbyterian churches).

[luchog]

Originally Posted by fishbob

As someone who grew up in a non-culturally diverse place and has worked in oil-field and construction for a long time, I would not be surprised if the percentage were even higher.

As someone who grew up in a moderately culturally-diverse place, I'd not be surprised if the ratio was actually reversed with regards to some forms of bigotry over another.

Hell, even in my current highly-culturally-diverse region, while racism is not as big a problem as it is elsewhere (although worse than many want to admit, as noted by an article I linked to earlier), homo/transphobia is very very common, especially on the east side of the region where I work.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by luchog

And you're another one who isn't getting it. It's not blue-collar workers who are being sneered at. In fact, the blue-collar vote was fairly evenly split between Trump and Clinton. As they were, they were only a small part of Trump's overall support base.

The bulk of Trump's support came from middle- and upper-middle-class white voters. People who are generally better educated and should know better.

Unfortunately, that's also the demographic which tends to believe in conspiracy theories and alt.med; is most likely to be partially or entirely anti-science supporting client-change denialism, creationism, and abstinence-only sex education; and is more likely to be highly religious types involved with Charismatic corporate megachurches like the ones run by Peter Popoff, Benny Hinn, or the late Oral Roberts (rather than the more traditional Roman Catholic or liberal Methodist or Presbyterian churches).

Different people define these things in different ways. I saw numbers earlier that showed 200k+ earners (the 5%) and post-graduates went Clinton while high school diploma education level went Trump. On phone now, but it's your premise to prove, anyways.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by dudalb

What is really sad is that this contempt for the Blue Collar Voter is just Playing into the Right's hand.

This is at least the second time you drive-by post with something like this today. Could you do a bit more than just the quip, please? How about some evidence that this is a significant part of Trump's appeal?

[luchog]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

Different people define these things in different ways. I saw numbers earlier that showed 200k+ earners (the 5%) and post-graduates went Clinton while high school diploma education level went Trump. On phone now, but it's your premise to prove, anyways.

Already done, if you'd paid attention to the links that have been repeatedly posted by myself and Argumemnon in this thread.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

That what? That poor, unskilled people with no jobs who rose up against the establishment DON'T make up the bulk of Trump's support?

I do actually.

Are you aware that the charts you linked to are from 7 months ago? And that Trump was trailing Clinton at the time?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Spindrift

How does one win them over? Obviously one could spout the same racist, misogynistic, xenophobic crap that they seem to eat up because reason and logic does not seem to work.

Please explain what can be done? What should Democrats do in the future to garner the 'blue collar worker' vote?

Promise to open more coal mines? Promise free guns? Promise to bring back manufacturing jobs that left 30 years ago? Which lies will they believe next election?

Maybe you could pretend to understand and sympathize with their plight. It might get you a little further than mocking them and treating them as if they don't count.