IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , political speculation

Reply
Old 18th November 2016, 07:19 AM   #841
Stacko
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,837
Donald Trump choice of confederate general Jefferson Beauregard Sessions for cabinet seen as peacemaking gesture to defeated southern rebels
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 07:23 AM   #842
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,239
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Pres.-elect Trump to go on "a thank you tour" of states he won in the election "in the next couple of weeks," a Trump official says.
Normally it's the pissed off voters you have to explain that the President of US is every American's President and not the President.
Like he doesn't have anything more important to do.

Maybe that's what he thinks, having appointed a Cabinet he can rest on his laurels. He's missed the throngs of adorers and has to get his fix.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 07:27 AM   #843
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,434
If we're lucky, the next administration is going to be so insanely right-wing that it'll instead cause a backlash to the left.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 07:33 AM   #844
Jrrarglblarg
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Like he doesn't have anything more important to do.

Maybe that's what he thinks, having appointed a Cabinet he can rest on his laurels. He's missed the throngs of adorers and has to get his fix.
Do you remember what Dubya was up to between January and September of 01? They put him out on some form of post-campaign tour to keep him occupied and get him out from under foot so they could get to work.
Jrrarglblarg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 07:52 AM   #845
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,239
Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Do you remember what Dubya was up to between January and September of 01? They put him out on some form of post-campaign tour to keep him occupied and get him out from under foot so they could get to work.
I'm not sure Trump's crew is going to be able to work effectively. Which is actually kind of OK with me.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 07:55 AM   #846
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,434
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm not sure Trump's crew is going to be able to work effectively.
I don't know. They seem to agree on the basics.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 08:12 AM   #847
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 97,066
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
And yet, what could the alternative be? ...snip...
It's hardly rocket science, when he first meets a woman he wants to kiss he could try "Can I kiss you?" and for grabbing her pussy perhaps a more decorous " Can I touch you in an intimate way?"
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 08:19 AM   #848
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,428
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
If we're lucky, the next administration is going to be so insanely right-wing that it'll instead cause a backlash to the left.
The guy who spoke with Putin on his own phone before talking to any department? The admin headed by that guy?
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 08:20 AM   #849
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,434
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The guy who spoke with Putin on his own phone before talking to any department?
I'm sorry, what? I'm saying that the Trump years may result in a very blue administration in 2020.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 08:22 AM   #850
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,885
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The guy who spoke with Putin on his own phone before talking to any department? The admin headed by that guy?
Isn't that incredible.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 08:24 AM   #851
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 22,574
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The guy who spoke with Putin on his own phone before talking to any department? The admin headed by that guy?
Reagan must be so proud.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 08:26 AM   #852
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's hardly rocket science, when he first meets a woman he wants to kiss he could try "Can I kiss you?" and for grabbing her pussy perhaps a more decorous " Can I touch you in an intimate way?"
Except the premise is that women may feel coerced into saying "yes" when they don't want to do those things. By requiring them to object you are right back where we started.

As an aside, we need to seriously change the way movies and literature present these interactions, especially the wordless, romantic kiss. He leans forward, she leans forward. His eyes close, her eyes close. They are very close now, he can smell her perfume. She turns her face and lips upward. The lights are dim, the candles flicker.

"Can I kiss you?"
"Oh, yes!"
"No, I mean in a totally unpressured way, unrelated to my physical dominance and our disparate incomes. Without any possibility for recompense, gifts or inducements, whether those be through employment, recommendation for employment, or any other goods or services."
"Well, when you put it that way... no, I think your brother is actually more my type."
"That cad? He would kiss you without asking first."
"Exactly."
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 08:29 AM   #853
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,434
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Except the premise is that women may feel coerced into saying "yes" when they don't want to do those things.
Also, if I ask my wife permission to kiss her it might kill the mood entirely!
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 08:41 AM   #854
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Also, if I ask my wife permission to kiss her it might kill the mood entirely!
I rub my wife's shoulders and scratch her back because I am coerced into doing it. She likes it, but it's emotional blackmail. She's taking advantage of my love for her and making me do things I probably wouldn't do if I didn't care so much about her.

I'd actually feel much better about the deal if she ponied up some folding money...

On a positive note, it turns out gays haven't ruined my marriage after all.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 08:43 AM   #855
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,719
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
With due respect, can we not quote tweets without comment on this forum? If I gave a **** about what this or that twitter user was saying, then I might use twitter.

Thanks.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 08:55 AM   #856
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 19,246
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
With due respect, can we not quote tweets without comment on this forum? If I gave a **** about what this or that twitter user was saying, then I might use twitter.

Thanks.
How do I retweet this?
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon
Spindrift is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 09:21 AM   #857
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 16,201
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm sorry, did you want me to only read the cherry-picked part, and not look at other data as well? My apologies for seeking a larger, less biased viewpoint.

ETA: No, I am NOT gong to bother to read an opinion piece that begins by slandering an entire skin-color of people indiscriminately, and simply seeks to blame all white people for the situation.

Translation: "I refuse to read something that might challenge my deeply held beliefs, therefore I have absolutely no clue what it is actually in the article and will just use a pat dismissal to pretend I have the moral high ground."

You won't address it, because you can't refute it. It's easy to throw around phrases like "cherry picking" if you don't actually have to provide evidence to support your assertion. And what do we call assertions made without evidence here?

Oh, and I wanted to bring this up again, since I don't think it really got addressed properly:

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I do NOT believe that most of his supporters are bigots. I do, however, believe that most of them are frightened of terrorists. They have seen terror attacks successfully enacted against the US, France, and many other parts of the world. They've seen increased hostility toward women in Germany, perpetrated by islamic refugees. Yet when the topic is raised, it is often met with claims of bigotry by those seeking a solution - seeking some way to increase their safety. A real concern for their safety and security is met by cries of bigotry and shouted down into silence.

So what you're saying is, they are afraid of Islamic terrorism, something done by only a tiny fraction of Muslims worldwide; and as a result they are demonizing the entirety of the Muslim population and demanding or supporting registries of Muslims and blocking of Muslim immigrants and refugees based on the actions a tiny minority of Muslims. But since they're lashing out at them out of fear, that's okay somehow? Do you not realize that's practically the dictionary definition of prejudice? Labeling an entire and highly diverse group of people with the characteristics of a small percentage of its members, and treating all of them as effectively the same.

I'd really like to hear you try and justify how that's not prejudice. You're excusing flat-out bigotry by trying to say that their fear of a tiny number of people justifies their desire to take away the civil rights of an extremely large number of people who have nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism.

Worse, you say that progressives need to be "understanding" of this bigotry, while in the same breath accusing us of doing the exact same thing and castigating us for your perception of our actions. That is a lack of self-awareness and hypocrisy of the highest order. And then when called on it and provided evidence, you create egregious straw-man representations of us and go off on Gish Gallops. You're really taking a page from the Alt-Right school of debate here.

We point out out that the majority of white people voted for an avowed and proud bigot, "OMG YOU JUST HATE WHITE PEOPLE!"

We point out that Trump has garnered support by numerous white supremacist organizations while doing little or nothing to repudiate their association, and hires a well-known bigot for a high cabinet position, "OMG YOU JUST HATE WHITE PEOPLE!"

Provide evidence of people putting their bigotry on display, using it as reasons for voting for Trump, or saying that they care more about economic impossibilities (bringing back manufacturing) than about equal rights, "OMG YOU JUST HATE WHITE PEOPLE!"

Provided evidence that one of the largest and most vocally anti-GLBTQ voting blocs in the entire country voted overwhelmingly for Trump, "OMG YOU JUST HATE WHITE PEOPLE!"

You are seriously starting to sound like an Alt-Right Trump supporter.
__________________
When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

Last edited by luchog; 18th November 2016 at 10:05 AM.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 09:28 AM   #858
Worm
Illuminator
 
Worm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dundee
Posts: 3,254
The 'Trump may split time between NY and Washington' thing intrigues me. Has any other recent President done this? I thought they all pretty much took up residence in the White House for the duration?

I would have thought there are pretty serious security considerations to take into account if the President is going to spend significant amounts of time at another residence, both at that location and in travel arrangements.
__________________
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov

Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness
Worm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 09:30 AM   #859
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 16,201
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
And yet, what could the alternative be?

The alternative would be not injecting sexual advances into a situation where you have a significant, potentially life-altering amount of authority over the target of your advances, who may not feel free to refuse under those circumstances. That's not at all hard to understand, and is simple human decency.
__________________
When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

Last edited by luchog; 18th November 2016 at 09:34 AM.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 09:32 AM   #860
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 22,574
Originally Posted by Worm View Post
The 'Trump may split time between NY and Washington' thing intrigues me. Has any other recent President done this? I thought they all pretty much took up residence in the White House for the duration?
Bush, the second, spent a lot of time in Texas. Not as convenient as NYC, but I got the feeling he much preferred his relatively modest ranch over the White House.

Quote:
I would have thought there are pretty serious security considerations to take into account if the President is going to spend significant amounts of time at another residence, both at that location and in travel arrangements.
Crawford is pretty remote so the security was likely far easier than it will be at Trump tower. Same with travel.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

Last edited by Dr. Keith; 18th November 2016 at 09:46 AM.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 09:32 AM   #861
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 17,122
Originally Posted by Worm View Post
The 'Trump may split time between NY and Washington' thing intrigues me. Has any other recent President done this? I thought they all pretty much took up residence in the White House for the duration?

I would have thought there are pretty serious security considerations to take into account if the President is going to spend significant amounts of time at another residence, both at that location and in travel arrangements.
Didn't Bush Jr. spend a lot of time at his ranch? (I remember there being a few photo ops of him clearing brush.)

Of course, a ranch is probably an easier location to secure than a residential building in the middle of New York.

ETA: Darn, Ninja'd!
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 09:45 AM   #862
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,678
I don't think that Trump supporters are generally bigots; I do think that bigots are generally Trump supporters. I believe that to be so obvious and undeniable a fact that I hardly think anybody would question it.

(Channeling some John Stuart Mill)
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 09:46 AM   #863
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,434
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
With due respect, can we not quote tweets without comment on this forum? If I gave a **** about what this or that twitter user was saying, then I might use twitter.

Thanks.
I use Twitter but only to get news from various commercial sites, music bands and NASA and the like without having to go through a list of 50 sites every morning.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 09:47 AM   #864
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,434
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
So what you're saying is, they are afraid of Islamic terrorism, something done by only a tiny fraction of Muslims worldwide; that they are demonizing the entirety of the Muslim population and demanding or supporting registries of Muslims and blocking of Muslim immigrants and refugees based on the actions a tiny minority of Muslims.
Careful not to tell them anything about white people!
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 09:48 AM   #865
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 17,122
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
The pettiness here is amazing.
Pres.-elect Trump to go on "a thank you tour" of states he won in the election "in the next couple of weeks," a Trump official says.
Normally it's the pissed off voters you have to explain that the President of US is every American's President and not the President.
Also, keep in mind that this is the same president who's lawyers wanted the Trump University court case delayed until after he was sworn in because he was "too busy".

Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Do you remember what Dubya was up to between January and September of 01? They put him out on some form of post-campaign tour to keep him occupied and get him out from under foot so they could get to work.
I don't remember that (it was a while ago), but assuming that was the case:

Did Bush visit all the states, or just ones that he won? Remember, that's one of the criticisms against Trump... he seems to be ignoring the people who didn't vote for him

Trump is planning his tour between now and January (during the transition)... the time frame you gave for Bush was between January and September. Trump's lawyers (handling his Trump U lawsuit) claim that the Transition period is more intense/stressful than when he's actually taken power.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 09:49 AM   #866
NoahFence
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 22,131
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
If we're lucky, the next administration is going to be so insanely right-wing that it'll instead cause a backlash to the left.
Insanely right-wing usually causes quite a bit of death and suffering. I don't want that. We're already in an insanely right-wing America.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 09:53 AM   #867
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,360
Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I think Trump's choices for his top team are demonstrating that he's not going to be pivoting to the centre any time soon and if anything a lurch (even further) to starboard is likely.

Sure this could all be window dressing and of course he needs to get his proposals through congress but given how the GOP is cowed to its extreme right wing, this could be very "interesting" times
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 09:59 AM   #868
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,360
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
I don't think that Trump supporters are generally bigots; I do think that bigots are generally Trump supporters. I believe that to be so obvious and undeniable a fact that I hardly think anybody would question it.

(Channeling some John Stuart Mill)
I think it depends on how you classify "supporters".

I thing the foaming-at-the-mouth, "Jew-S-A" shouting Trump tifosi at his rallies are absolutely bigots.

If they are people who voted for Trump because they were voting the GOP ticket or because they hated Hillary so much then they may not be bigoted themselves - though with a candidate whose policies are so bigoted and a core support who are bigoted it's difficult to tell the difference.

Then again perhaps people in the US are inured to bigotry, as a Brit it seems all too pervasive in large parts of the country - especially the middle and bottom-right.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 10:00 AM   #869
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,434
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Insanely right-wing usually causes quite a bit of death and suffering. I don't want that.
Neither do I, but omelettes and eggs and all that. Plus we don't have a choice anymore.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 10:07 AM   #870
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The alternative would be not injecting sexual advances into a situation where you have a significant, potentially life-altering amount of authority over the target of your advances, who may not feel free to refuse under those circumstances. That's not at all hard to understand, and is simple human decency.
It only works out that way if we set it up, from outside, in predator/prey format. From the inside, things may be much different. For example, it might be a simple transaction - she is my boss, I want to get promoted. I do sexual favors for her and she promotes me. We are both willing participants.

I have stated the problem before. It's a matter of seeing into the heads of the participants, their internal motivations, the reasons for their behaviors. If we know (by set-up or otherwise) what their internal agenda is, we have our answer. But we don't usually know. We don't know if there is true chemistry or faux, we don't know if there is - dare I say it? - love or merely lust.

This is why Donald Trump's comments to Bush were taken to be so meaningful: the remarks appeared to give us the insight we lacked, what he was thinking about what happened. Now, the dressing room incident isn't just accidental or incidental, it's planned. And the kisses aren't a throwback or grandfatherly care, but a taking of liberties and a power play.

The problem here is the serial liar aspect. Trump has a reputation for saying whatever he thinks people want to hear and colors it with braggadocio. So even though at first blush it looks like we have seen the "inner man," we don't know, since we don't believe all the other stuff he says about his own motivations.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 10:18 AM   #871
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 17,122
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
I don't think that Trump supporters are generally bigots; I do think that bigots are generally Trump supporters. I believe that to be so obvious and undeniable a fact that I hardly think anybody would question it.
I don't think anyone is questioning that.

The issue is, how should people react when they find out someone is a bigot. Do you accept them just as they are, or do you consider racism and bigotry to be vile enough that you distance yourselves from them.

Trump made bigoted comments. You would hope that people would see those comments as bigoted, and even if they didn't have any of their own racism, they should have said "I don't want to associate in any way with a person that has those attitudes" (including having them represent you as president).

I had a friend who started making racist comments. Started out using things like sand-n-words to refer to muslims. Later they described how they used the n-word when arguing with people that lived in their building. I would repeatedly tell them that I didn't like that. Eventually I stopped talking to that friend.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 10:24 AM   #872
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 17,122
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Insanely right-wing usually causes quite a bit of death and suffering. I don't want that. We're already in an insanely right-wing America.
I think the question is, if there's not widespread suffering under Trump, then how will people realize that voting in an incompetent bigot is a bad thing.

The worst possible scenario: Trump's policies harm certain groups (e.g. muslims), but the majority see him as a success, and see no reason to vote Trump (or a similar Candidate) again.

Better scenario: Trumps policies harm everyone, people realize that voting for incompetent bigots is a bad thing all around and don't do that again. Yes, people suffer, but they actually learn something.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 10:31 AM   #873
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 8,347
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It only works out that way if we set it up, from outside, in predator/prey format. From the inside, things may be much different. For example, it might be a simple transaction - she is my boss, I want to get promoted. I do sexual favors for her and she promotes me. We are both willing participants.

I have stated the problem before. It's a matter of seeing into the heads of the participants, their internal motivations, the reasons for their behaviors. If we know (by set-up or otherwise) what their internal agenda is, we have our answer. But we don't usually know. We don't know if there is true chemistry or faux, we don't know if there is - dare I say it? - love or merely lust.

This is why Donald Trump's comments to Bush were taken to be so meaningful: the remarks appeared to give us the insight we lacked, what he was thinking about what happened. Now, the dressing room incident isn't just accidental or incidental, it's planned. And the kisses aren't a throwback or grandfatherly care, but a taking of liberties and a power play.

The problem here is the serial liar aspect. Trump has a reputation for saying whatever he thinks people want to hear and colors it with braggadocio. So even though at first blush it looks like we have seen the "inner man," we don't know, since we don't believe all the other stuff he says about his own motivations.
How can we ever know? It's not like his claims have been backed up by multiple women agreeing that he does do the groping and kissing without permission.

Oh, wait, yeah, we do have a list of women validating Trump's claim that he sexually assaults women.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 10:31 AM   #874
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,678
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I think it depends on how you classify "supporters".

I thing the foaming-at-the-mouth, "Jew-S-A" shouting Trump tifosi at his rallies are absolutely bigots.

If they are people who voted for Trump because they were voting the GOP ticket or because they hated Hillary so much then they may not be bigoted themselves - though with a candidate whose policies are so bigoted and a core support who are bigoted it's difficult to tell the difference.

Then again perhaps people in the US are inured to bigotry, as a Brit it seems all too pervasive in large parts of the country - especially the middle and bottom-right.
Well, "generally" is really the more operative word here. I live in south Mississippi, so I'm pretty much surrounded by Trump supporters (including my wife, which made for some...interesting...conversations over the last few weeks). Most of these people are not bigots, just confused and under-informed (when not totally ignorant). And, for a lot of them, I'd describe their votes for Trump as more simply anti-Hillary, as well as the products of the cultural inertia involved in living in Mississippi- the "voting the GOP ticket," without much thought, you mentioned. And it's interesting to me that, for a lot of them, maybe the most accurate description of their expectations for the Trump presidency is "hoping for the best." The promises were vague (at least as to how, specifically, they would be fulfilled), so the metric for realization is also.

Anyway, I think it's telling that while Trump's supporters (or he himself, for that matter) may not be bigots, his positions were such that bigots pretty much exclusively supported him.
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 10:36 AM   #875
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 4,678
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I don't think anyone is questioning that.

The issue is, how should people react when they find out someone is a bigot. Do you accept them just as they are, or do you consider racism and bigotry to be vile enough that you distance yourselves from them.

Trump made bigoted comments. You would hope that people would see those comments as bigoted, and even if they didn't have any of their own racism, they should have said "I don't want to associate in any way with a person that has those attitudes" (including having them represent you as president).

I had a friend who started making racist comments. Started out using things like sand-n-words to refer to muslims. Later they described how they used the n-word when arguing with people that lived in their building. I would repeatedly tell them that I didn't like that. Eventually I stopped talking to that friend.
Oh, agreed. That whole post of mine (including the "hardly anyone would question that" part), was, as I said, me channeling John Stuart Mill:
Quote:
I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid; I meant, that stupid persons are generally Conservative. I believe that to be so obvious and undeniable a fact that I hardly think any hon. Gentleman will question it.
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 10:38 AM   #876
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 16,201
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It only works out that way if we set it up, from outside, in predator/prey format. From the inside, things may be much different. For example, it might be a simple transaction - she is my boss, I want to get promoted. I do sexual favors for her and she promotes me. We are both willing participants.

And you are completely unable to see the clear and obvious potential for abuse, not to mention the dramatic ethical problems with that scenario?

Leaving aside the clear problem with power imbalance and their modification of the question of consent, you can't see how damaging that is to the work environment in general? When rewards are not based on merit, not based on the quality of work and reliability of the individual, but on willingness to prostitute one's self to authority figures, that creates an environment that is not only ripe for abuse, but effectively demands abuse. Not to mention effectively guaranteeing the enshrining of incompetence.

Quote:
I have stated the problem before. It's a matter of seeing into the heads of the participants, their internal motivations, the reasons for their behaviors.

Which is exactly why it's such an ethical violation. We can't know, and the power imbalance is such that even a best-case scenario is highly questionable. That's why it's sexual harassment legislation exists, and why no one who is actually ethical would engage in or support such a practice.

Quote:
The problem here is the serial liar aspect. Trump has a reputation for saying whatever he thinks people want to hear and colors it with braggadocio. So even though at first blush it looks like we have seen the "inner man," we don't know, since we don't believe all the other stuff he says about his own motivations.

The problem with your statement is that this doesn't matter in the slightest. We do know, and know very well, exactly what kind of man Trump is from his words. We know that he will pander to whoever he thinks will support him in the way he wants to be supported; and we know that he believes that the words he says are acceptable ways of reaching out to those people.

Even if he has never sexually assaulted anyone, even if he has never, personally, "grabbed a pussy" or engaged in any of the other invasive activities that he has openly bragged about, he says those things because he believes that is what the majority of Americans will approve. That he believes that is considered acceptable behaviour, and wants to be seen as that sort of person.

By engaging in said braggadocio, he has given license to those who do engage in said behaviour, who will continue to provide him with the approval he seeks, creating a self-reinforcing cycle.
__________________
When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 10:47 AM   #877
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 16,201
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
interesting...conversations over the last few weeks). Most of these people are not bigots, just confused and under-informed (when not totally ignorant).

Really? How is their acceptance of GLBTQ people? My experience with people in those regions is that it's pretty bad.

Even assuming that they're good with that, according to other people in this thread calling them ignorant is just as bad as calling them bigots, you're still demonizing and failing to "understand" them.

Given the prevalence of Trump's bigotry, I think the best thing that can be said about such people is that they're "willfully ignorant" and displaying a great deal of cognitive dissonance.

The Anti-Hillary thing is kind of interesting. Pretty much all of my staunchly evangelical family and their circle of friends and associates supported Trump. They did so knowing full well of his behaviour. Some of them tried to deny it, claiming that the "media manufactured those quotes"; others just fell back on "Hillary will force us all to have abortions and become queer Muslims" and outright refused to address Trump's expressed bigotry.

Ignorance does even begin to describe it.
__________________
When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

Last edited by luchog; 18th November 2016 at 10:49 AM.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 10:53 AM   #878
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I disagree . The Horror stories about people losing their health coverage will be a huge story. The GOP will have to come up with SOMETHING,and it can't just be a empty measure. There will be a backlash if they try that..and a pretty big one.
Hope you are right and it destroys the republickers.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 10:59 AM   #879
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
But I do not expect it as we clearly have too many idiots who pay no attention to reality when they vote. And a rigged system for the actual "election " of the President that does not mean your vote counts, just those of members of the electoral college, which is not directly based on state population but where some states get more votes than they should and big/heavily populated states thus not as many as they should. Popular vote period and hell with low pop. state complaints. Fair is fair, most votes should always and only be the basis for a democratic society. This is not.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2016, 11:00 AM   #880
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 14,812
Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Here's what she said:

It was a clunky method of making a reasonable point. As the word themselves show, she was labeling people deplorable based on their deplorable behavior (as well as, in the second paragraph, empathizing with Trump supporters who are not guilty of that behavior). Contrary to what you state, she was being quite discriminate.
She said that half of Trumps supporters are deplorable, then *ascribed* them characteristics of bigotry. She then goes on to imply that they "thankfully" aren't America. She casts half of the people supporting Trump as bigots, and simultaneously implies that they should have no valid voice.

I can imagine that if someone were friends with several people, all of whom are Trump Supporters, and none of whom consider themselves to be bigoted, then implying that every other one of them is a bigot who doesn't deserve a voice might very well be taken as a broad-brush attempt to shut-out all of them.

It also leads to exactly the situation we have here: The assumption that everyone who voted for Trump is a bigot. At the very best, they're all people who are not bothered by bigotry. And hey, let's go that extra step and say that anyone who didn't vote for Clinton is in the exact same boat. It gets extended to the entirety of the group. There's no way to tell who is in the bigoted half... and it's entirely too easy to say "well, if half of them are bigots, then the other half have to know that, and so they're supportive of bigotry".
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:34 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.