Lawsuits against Trump

shemp · 16th February 2021, 08:28 AM

I know we have umpteen threads about Trump already, but I think there should be one more, specifically to discuss civil lawsuits (not criminal charges) against Donald Trump. I don't think this topic fits into any of the present threads about him. If the moderators feel differently, feel free to merge it somewhere.

This morning, Mississippi Democratic Rep. Bennie Thompson filed a civil action naming Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani:

Quote:

(CNN) - Former President Donald Trump and attorney Rudy Giuliani are being accused of conspiring with the far-right groups Proud Boys and Oath Keepers to incite the January 6 insurrection in a civil lawsuit filed Tuesday in federal court by the Democratic chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee that cites a post-Civil War law designed to combat violence and intimidation by the Ku Klux Klan.

The lawsuit, filed by Mississippi Democratic Rep. Bennie Thompson in his personal capacity, is the first civil action filed against the former President related to the attack at the US Capitol and comes days after the Senate acquitted Trump in his impeachment trial.

If it proceeds, it would mean the former President and others would be subject to discovery and depositions, potentially exposing details and evidence that weren't released during the Senate impeachment trial.

Being subject to discovery and depositions may bring out evidence that the House managers couldn't get, such as emails and phone records, and may compel testimony by others around Trump. I look forward to seeing just what this lawsuit digs up.

I'll get the popcorn maker going.

Crossbow · 16th February 2021, 09:00 AM

And when that POS Trump refuses to pay his creditors (which he often does) for the millions and millions of dollars that he owes to them, then I expect one will seen a great wave of lawsuits filed against Trump.

timhau · 16th February 2021, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

And when that POS Trump refuses to pay his creditors (which he often does) for the millions and millions of dollars that he owes to them, then I expect one will seen a great wave of lawsuits filed against Trump.

... while his pool of available lawyers keeps shrinking. The pool of available competent lawyers may already be dry.

ponderingturtle · 16th February 2021, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by timhau

... while his pool of available lawyers keeps shrinking. The pool of available competent lawyers may already be dry.

Well he will always have Rudy, unless he gets disbarred.

timhau · 16th February 2021, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Well he will always have Rudy, unless he gets disbarred.

Rudy stepped out of the pool of competent lawyers 30 years ago and dried himself so thoroughly that he'll never get wet again.

The Great Zaganza · 16th February 2021, 11:50 AM

It will be a war of attrition to deplete Trump's resources for lawyers.
Trump might hire actually someone good when it comes to important things like money instead of irrelevant things like impeachment.

Segnosaur · 16th February 2021, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by timhau

Rudy stepped out of the pool of competent lawyers 30 years ago and dried himself so thoroughly that he'll never get wet again.

Then explain his hair dye leaking during his press conference.

timhau · 16th February 2021, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

It will be a war of attrition to deplete Trump's resources for lawyers.
Trump might hire actually someone good when it comes to important things like money instead of irrelevant things like impeachment.

Good lawyers will want their payday. Therein lies the problem.

Trebuchet · 16th February 2021, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Well he will always have Rudy, unless he gets disbarred.

Rudy is a defendant in the lawsuit mentioned in the OP. Then again, he's definitely a fool so might as well represent himself.

ponderingturtle · 16th February 2021, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Rudy is a defendant in the lawsuit mentioned in the OP. Then again, he's definitely a fool so might as well represent himself.

Of course it wouldn't do to have a lawyer who knows the different levels of scrutiny after all.

dudalb · 16th February 2021, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

And when that POS Trump refuses to pay his creditors (which he often does) for the millions and millions of dollars that he owes to them, then I expect one will seen a great wave of lawsuits filed against Trump.

This. I supect the suits from people who Donnie owed money to will do much more damage then any other liablity he has.

phiwum · 16th February 2021, 12:10 PM

The SJC has ruled that the President is immune from lawsuits related to his official duties. Of course, we may all reasonably claim that trying to overturn an election is hardly an official duty, but the WAPO article says that the exemption has been interpreted broadly.

One could argue that Trump was defending the legitimacy of our democracy by trying to reject fraudulent election results. Even though the claims of fraud have been dismissed by the courts, it may be enough that he genuinely[1] believed that the results were fraudulent and required fixing. The fact that he was mistaken wouldn't mean he wasn't actually doing what he regarded as his duty.

Few people here would take the argument seriously, I'm sure, but I wonder how many justices would buy it.

[1] I know, it's awkward to use that term in a Trumpian context.

alfaniner · 16th February 2021, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Then explain his hair dye leaking during his press conference.

This is really gross, but

Crossbow · 16th February 2021, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by timhau

... while his pool of available lawyers keeps shrinking. The pool of available competent lawyers may already be dry.

This sounds like a case for:

Better Call Saul

Stacyhs · 16th February 2021, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by phiwum

The SJC has ruled that the President is immune from lawsuits related to his official duties. Of course, we may all reasonably claim that trying to overturn an election is hardly an official duty, but the WAPO article says that the exemption has been interpreted broadly.

One could argue that Trump was defending the legitimacy of our democracy by trying to reject fraudulent election results. Even though the claims of fraud have been dismissed by the courts, it may be enough that he genuinely[1] believed that the results were fraudulent and required fixing. The fact that he was mistaken wouldn't mean he wasn't actually doing what he regarded as his duty.

Few people here would take the argument seriously, I'm sure, but I wonder how many justices would buy it.

[1] I know, it's awkward to use that term in a Trumpian context.

The lawsuit is suing him in his personal capacity, not official.

Quote:

Presidents are historically afforded broad immunity from lawsuits for actions they take in their role as commander in chief. But the lawsuit filed Tuesday was brought against Trump in his personal, not official, capacity and alleges that none of the behavior at issue had to do with his responsibilities as president.

phiwum · 16th February 2021, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

The lawsuit is suing him in his personal capacity, not official.

I'm not surprised they said that. It just seems to me that the first obvious defense is that this was part of his official capacity, not personal. It would be up to the plaintiffs to show that this was indeed personal.

And maybe they can do that. I think it's very plausibly not official, but I'm not on the SJC and I genuinely have no idea how they might view it.

The actions on Jan 6 and the preceding two months aren't personal matters just because the plaintiff says so. If the defendant disputes that characterization (which they surely will, unless I'm terribly mistaken), then it's up to the court to decide.

SuburbanTurkey · 16th February 2021, 06:45 PM

Seems to me proving such a case against Trump is tricky and full of possible technicalities that he could wriggle out with, but I would guess that Proud Boys and Oathkeepers are going to have a lot more trouble escaping liability here, which is nice.

phiwum · 16th February 2021, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Seems to me proving such a case against Trump is tricky and full of possible technicalities that he could wriggle out with, but I would guess that Proud Boys and Oathkeepers are going to have a lot more trouble escaping liability here, which is nice.

Not sure about them. It will be hard to make a case that actions by individual members are part of the group's responsibility unless you can find proof of leadership urging them to attack police or enter the capitol.

Maybe there is such evidence. Would be great, if so.

Guiliani is being sued as an individual without any claims of official privilege, so his case is easier in that respect. His influence is a lot less than Trump's however, so that works in his favor I guess.

SuburbanTurkey · 16th February 2021, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by phiwum

Not sure about them. It will be hard to make a case that actions by individual members are part of the group's responsibility unless you can find proof of leadership urging them to attack police or enter the capitol.

Maybe there is such evidence. Would be great, if so.

Guiliani is being sued as an individual without any claims of official privilege, so his case is easier in that respect. His influence is a lot less than Trump's however, so that works in his favor I guess.

Several of them already have been criminally charged with conspiracy. There's very damning evidence that both the Oathkeepers and Proud Boys planned for coordinated anti-government violence in advance.

The Unite the Right lawsuit showed just how devastating the legal process can be to these groups. All the proof of coordination is right there, laying just beneath the surface waiting to be discovered, or in the case of many of these Jan 6 rioters, laying out in plain sight.

phiwum · 16th February 2021, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Several of them already have been criminally charged with conspiracy. There's very damning evidence that both the Oathkeepers and Proud Boys planned for coordinated anti-government violence in advance.

Good.

Quote:

The Unite the Right lawsuit showed just how devastating the legal process can be to these groups. All the proof of coordination is right there, laying just beneath the surface waiting to be discovered, or in the case of many of these Jan 6 rioters, laying out in plain sight.

Perhaps the lawsuit against these groups is stronger than I was wildass guessing.

RecoveringYuppy · 16th February 2021, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Well he will always have Rudy, unless he gets disbarred.

I think Trump has fired Rudy. Let me find a link.

ETA: https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/16/polit...ump/index.html

Skeptic Ginger · 16th February 2021, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Well he will always have Rudy, unless he gets disbarred.

Does Rudy even have a FL license? This isn't like working on Trump's election fraud where any state license will do.

Maybe it doesn't matter if the lawsuit is about what he did as POTUS?

Oh, and Giuliani is also named in one of the suits. I guess he could ask to go pro se.

Mumbles · 16th February 2021, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by phiwum

The SJC has ruled that the President is immune from lawsuits related to his official duties. Of course, we may all reasonably claim that trying to overturn an election is hardly an official duty, but the WAPO article says that the exemption has been interpreted broadly.

One could argue that Trump was defending the legitimacy of our democracy by trying to reject fraudulent election results. Even though the claims of fraud have been dismissed by the courts, it may be enough that he genuinely[1] believed that the results were fraudulent and required fixing. The fact that he was mistaken wouldn't mean he wasn't actually doing what he regarded as his duty.

Few people here would take the argument seriously, I'm sure, but I wonder how many justices would buy it.

It's one possibility. It's also very possible that they'll distinguish between the duties of *president* Dolt 45, and the goonish behavior of *candidate* Toupee Fiasco who was yelling about fraud to the rubes and white supremacist gangs. I doubt he ever made any such distinction, but a good DA office should be able to dig through the regulations and make a case.

Egg · 17th February 2021, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

This. I supect the suits from people who Donnie owed money to will do much more damage then any other liablity he has.

That would depend on whom he owes money to. Some of them just poison you if you can't pay it back and are no longer of any political use.

Stacyhs · 17th February 2021, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by phiwum

I'm not surprised they said that. It just seems to me that the first obvious defense is that this was part of his official capacity, not personal. It would be up to the plaintiffs to show that this was indeed personal.

And maybe they can do that. I think it's very plausibly not official, but I'm not on the SJC and I genuinely have no idea how they might view it.

The actions on Jan 6 and the preceding two months aren't personal matters just because the plaintiff says so. If the defendant disputes that characterization (which they surely will, unless I'm terribly mistaken), then it's up to the court to decide.

Agreed. I think it may be difficult to separate his personal and his official capacity at that point.

SuburbanTurkey · 17th February 2021, 05:12 AM

Another lesson from the UTR lawsuit is that, while these lawsuits can be devastating to violent right wing groups, they don't move fast.

The UTR lawsuit is still grinding it's way through the courts. The wheels of justice move slowly.

While this has the benefit of turning the destruction of right wing extremists into a years long tantric torture session, it's probably not going to be a remedy for social ills in the short term future. Such a lawsuit might still be grinding through the courts in 2024 if Trump wanted to take another stab at running for office.

Puppycow · 17th February 2021, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

This sounds like a case for:

Better Call Saul

Even Saul Goodman looks more ethical than Rudy Giuliani at this point.

Puppycow · 17th February 2021, 05:16 AM

I know Dominion and Smartmatic have sued Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani, and Fox News too, if memory serves. I keep wondering why they haven't named Trump as a co-defendant.

Crossbow · 17th February 2021, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Even Saul Goodman looks more ethical than Rudy Giuliani at this point.

If that is the case, then maybe Trump can hire the very old and very well established law firm of "Howe, Dewey and Cheetum".

By the way , I am sure that 'shemp' is quite familiar with this law firm.

shemp · 17th February 2021, 08:38 AM

It's "Dewey, Cheatham & Howe."

http://dewey-cheatham-howe.com/

Crossbow · 17th February 2021, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by shemp

It's "Dewey, Cheatham & Howe."

http://dewey-cheatham-howe.com/

Thanks much!

I was sure that knew that you knew the truth concerning that venerable and highly respected law firm.

alfaniner · 18th February 2021, 08:43 AM

These lawsuits and results can not come quickly enough for me.

Craig4 · 18th February 2021, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

These lawsuits and results can not come quickly enough for me.

I'm afraid this will be some slow, drawn-out pain. Think of schadenfreude as a delicious journey, not a destination.

CapelDodger · 18th February 2021, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

This. I supect the suits from people who Donnie owed money to will do much more damage then any other liablity he has.

He'll have to pay some heavy vig to punt that debt a little way into the future, and every week it'll be "Screw you, where's my money?". His father could deal with the Mob. Donnie can't. Daddy always looked after that for him. In fact, he's been looked after by father-figures riding his inherited wealth all his life. Who's looking after him now?

CapelDodger · 18th February 2021, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

I'm afraid this will be some slow, drawn-out pain. Think of schadenfreude as a delicious journey, not a destination.

A dish best eaten cold, so you don't have to hurry.

CapelDodger · 18th February 2021, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

I know Dominion and Smartmatic have sued Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani, and Fox News too, if memory serves. I keep wondering why they haven't named Trump as a co-defendant.

They didn't want to bring spurious Presidential immunity arguments into what will already be a long-drawn-out proceeding. Nobody gets to argue the Constitutionality of this one.

Segnosaur · 19th February 2021, 07:53 AM

Here is another potential lawsuit that I hope Trump has to deal with:

From: The Hill
MSNBC “Morning Joe” host Joe Scarborough said in an interview that he has considered taking legal action against President Trump for repeatedly amplifying an unfounded conspiracy theory about the death of one of Scarborough's former aides.
...
Trump repeatedly returned to promoting a baseless conspiracy theory that Scarborough was involved in the death of an aide, Lori Klausutis, in his Florida office in 2001 when he was a congressman. Scarborough was in D.C. at the time of her death and the medical examiner ruled it an accident. Klausutis was found to have had an undiagnosed heart condition.

I hope he goes through with it. There is an issue because Scarborough is a public figure, which makes it a bit more difficult than if he was a private individual, but it seems like a pretty clear case of defamation.

Suddenly · 19th February 2021, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Even Saul Goodman looks more ethical than Rudy Giuliani at this point.

Saul Goodman's corruption on its worst day was less corrupt than Rudy Giuliani on his best. Or for that matter most corporate lawyers.

Just that Saul was doing things for the wrong people. Assisting criminal behavior is only acceptable when the criminals are rich to the point where any law they can't avoid they just rewrite.

Crossbow · 23rd February 2021, 06:48 AM

Finally, after so many years and so many delays, that stupid, lying, worthless POS Trump is finally going to have to answer for at least a few of his various disgusting sexual assaults due to lawsuits filed by some of the many women that Trump has sexually assaulted.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-may...110138143.html

Trump may soon have to answer rape allegations under oath

(Reuters) - During a December visit to New York City, writer E. Jean Carroll says she went shopping with a fashion consultant to find the “best outfit” for one of the most important days of her life - when she’ll sit face-to-face with the man she accuses of raping her decades ago, former President Donald Trump.

...

“The only barrier to proceeding with the civil suits was that he’s the president,” said Jennifer Rodgers, a former federal prosecutor and now an adjunct professor of clinical law at the New York University School of Law.

...

Trump faces a similar defamation lawsuit from Summer Zervos, a former contestant on his reality television show “The Apprentice.” In 2016, Zervos accused Trump of sexual misconduct, saying that he kissed her against her will at a 2007 meeting in New York and later groped her at a California hotel as the two met to discuss job opportunities.

...

Zervos and Carroll are among more than two dozen women who have publicly accused Trump of sexual misconduct that they say occurred in the years before he became president. Other accusers include a former model who claims Trump sexually assaulted her at the 1997 U.S. Open tennis tournament; a former Miss Universe pageant contestant who said Trump groped her in 2006; and a reporter who alleges Trump forcibly kissed her without her consent in 2005 at his Mar-a-Lago resort.

..

ponderingturtle · 23rd February 2021, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

Finally, after so many years and so many delays, that stupid, lying, worthless POS Trump is finally going to have to answer for at least a few of his various disgusting sexual assaults due to lawsuits filed by some of the many women that Trump has sexually assaulted.

But what about when you are rich they let you do it?

16th February 2021, 08:28 AM	#1
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 40,201	Lawsuits against Trump I know we have umpteen threads about Trump already, but I think there should be one more, specifically to discuss civil lawsuits (not criminal charges) against Donald Trump. I don't think this topic fits into any of the present threads about him. If the moderators feel differently, feel free to merge it somewhere. This morning, Mississippi Democratic Rep. Bennie Thompson filed a civil action naming Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani: Quote: (CNN) - Former President Donald Trump and attorney Rudy Giuliani are being accused of conspiring with the far-right groups Proud Boys and Oath Keepers to incite the January 6 insurrection in a civil lawsuit filed Tuesday in federal court by the Democratic chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee that cites a post-Civil War law designed to combat violence and intimidation by the Ku Klux Klan. The lawsuit, filed by Mississippi Democratic Rep. Bennie Thompson in his personal capacity, is the first civil action filed against the former President related to the attack at the US Capitol and comes days after the Senate acquitted Trump in his impeachment trial. If it proceeds, it would mean the former President and others would be subject to discovery and depositions, potentially exposing details and evidence that weren't released during the Senate impeachment trial. Being subject to discovery and depositions may bring out evidence that the House managers couldn't get, such as emails and phone records, and may compel testimony by others around Trump. I look forward to seeing just what this lawsuit digs up. I'll get the popcorn maker going.
	__________________ If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set. "...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, ~~Trump~~ shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will "[shemp is] a most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality." - Shakespeare

16th February 2021, 09:00 AM	#2
Crossbow Seeking Honesty and Sanity Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 13,307	And when that POS Trump refuses to pay his creditors (which he often does) for the millions and millions of dollars that he owes to them, then I expect one will seen a great wave of lawsuits filed against Trump.
	__________________ I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency. On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool." A man's best friend is his dogma.

16th February 2021, 11:01 AM	#3
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,462	Originally Posted by Crossbow And when that POS Trump refuses to pay his creditors (which he often does) for the millions and millions of dollars that he owes to them, then I expect one will seen a great wave of lawsuits filed against Trump. ... while his pool of available lawyers keeps shrinking. The pool of available competent lawyers may already be dry.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

16th February 2021, 11:43 AM	#4
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,412	Originally Posted by timhau ... while his pool of available lawyers keeps shrinking. The pool of available competent lawyers may already be dry. Well he will always have Rudy, unless he gets disbarred.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

16th February 2021, 11:48 AM	#5
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,462	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Well he will always have Rudy, unless he gets disbarred. Rudy stepped out of the pool of competent lawyers 30 years ago and dried himself so thoroughly that he'll never get wet again.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

16th February 2021, 11:50 AM	#6
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,626	It will be a war of attrition to deplete Trump's resources for lawyers. Trump might hire actually someone good when it comes to important things like money instead of irrelevant things like impeachment.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

16th February 2021, 11:51 AM	#7
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,103	Originally Posted by timhau Rudy stepped out of the pool of competent lawyers 30 years ago and dried himself so thoroughly that he'll never get wet again. Then explain his hair dye leaking during his press conference.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

16th February 2021, 11:56 AM	#8
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,462	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza It will be a war of attrition to deplete Trump's resources for lawyers. Trump might hire actually someone good when it comes to important things like money instead of irrelevant things like impeachment. Good lawyers will want their payday. Therein lies the problem.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

16th February 2021, 12:03 PM	#9
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 30,995	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Well he will always have Rudy, unless he gets disbarred. Rudy is a defendant in the lawsuit mentioned in the OP. Then again, he's definitely a fool so might as well represent himself.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

16th February 2021, 12:08 PM	#10
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,412	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Rudy is a defendant in the lawsuit mentioned in the OP. Then again, he's definitely a fool so might as well represent himself. Of course it wouldn't do to have a lawyer who knows the different levels of scrutiny after all.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

16th February 2021, 12:08 PM	#11
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,311	Originally Posted by Crossbow And when that POS Trump refuses to pay his creditors (which he often does) for the millions and millions of dollars that he owes to them, then I expect one will seen a great wave of lawsuits filed against Trump. This. I supect the suits from people who Donnie owed money to will do much more damage then any other liablity he has.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

16th February 2021, 12:10 PM	#12
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,718	The SJC has ruled that the President is immune from lawsuits related to his official duties. Of course, we may all reasonably claim that trying to overturn an election is hardly an official duty, but the WAPO article says that the exemption has been interpreted broadly. One could argue that Trump was defending the legitimacy of our democracy by trying to reject fraudulent election results. Even though the claims of fraud have been dismissed by the courts, it may be enough that he genuinely[1] believed that the results were fraudulent and required fixing. The fact that he was mistaken wouldn't mean he wasn't actually doing what he regarded as his duty. Few people here would take the argument seriously, I'm sure, but I wonder how many justices would buy it. [1] I know, it's awkward to use that term in a Trumpian context.

16th February 2021, 12:15 PM	#13
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,857	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Then explain his hair dye leaking during his press conference. This is really gross, but It was probably dissolving snot.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

16th February 2021, 01:02 PM	#14
Crossbow Seeking Honesty and Sanity Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 13,307	Originally Posted by timhau ... while his pool of available lawyers keeps shrinking. The pool of available competent lawyers may already be dry. This sounds like a case for: Better Call Saul
	__________________ I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency. On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool." A man's best friend is his dogma.

16th February 2021, 01:26 PM	#15
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,985	Originally Posted by phiwum The SJC has ruled that the President is immune from lawsuits related to his official duties. Of course, we may all reasonably claim that trying to overturn an election is hardly an official duty, but the WAPO article says that the exemption has been interpreted broadly. One could argue that Trump was defending the legitimacy of our democracy by trying to reject fraudulent election results. Even though the claims of fraud have been dismissed by the courts, it may be enough that he genuinely[1] believed that the results were fraudulent and required fixing. The fact that he was mistaken wouldn't mean he wasn't actually doing what he regarded as his duty. Few people here would take the argument seriously, I'm sure, but I wonder how many justices would buy it. [1] I know, it's awkward to use that term in a Trumpian context. The lawsuit is suing him in his personal capacity, not official. Quote: Presidents are historically afforded broad immunity from lawsuits for actions they take in their role as commander in chief. But the lawsuit filed Tuesday was brought against Trump in his personal, not official, capacity and alleges that none of the behavior at issue had to do with his responsibilities as president.

16th February 2021, 06:22 PM	#16
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,718	Originally Posted by Stacyhs The lawsuit is suing him in his personal capacity, not official. I'm not surprised they said that. It just seems to me that the first obvious defense is that this was part of his official capacity, not personal. It would be up to the plaintiffs to show that this was indeed personal. And maybe they can do that. I think it's very plausibly not official, but I'm not on the SJC and I genuinely have no idea how they might view it. The actions on Jan 6 and the preceding two months aren't personal matters just because the plaintiff says so. If the defendant disputes that characterization (which they surely will, unless I'm terribly mistaken), then it's up to the court to decide.

16th February 2021, 06:45 PM	#17
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,904	Seems to me proving such a case against Trump is tricky and full of possible technicalities that he could wriggle out with, but I would guess that Proud Boys and Oathkeepers are going to have a lot more trouble escaping liability here, which is nice.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

16th February 2021, 07:37 PM	#18
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,718	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Seems to me proving such a case against Trump is tricky and full of possible technicalities that he could wriggle out with, but I would guess that Proud Boys and Oathkeepers are going to have a lot more trouble escaping liability here, which is nice. Not sure about them. It will be hard to make a case that actions by individual members are part of the group's responsibility unless you can find proof of leadership urging them to attack police or enter the capitol. Maybe there is such evidence. Would be great, if so. Guiliani is being sued as an individual without any claims of official privilege, so his case is easier in that respect. His influence is a lot less than Trump's however, so that works in his favor I guess.

16th February 2021, 07:49 PM	#19
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,904	Originally Posted by phiwum Not sure about them. It will be hard to make a case that actions by individual members are part of the group's responsibility unless you can find proof of leadership urging them to attack police or enter the capitol. Maybe there is such evidence. Would be great, if so. Guiliani is being sued as an individual without any claims of official privilege, so his case is easier in that respect. His influence is a lot less than Trump's however, so that works in his favor I guess. Several of them already have been criminally charged with conspiracy. There's very damning evidence that both the Oathkeepers and Proud Boys planned for coordinated anti-government violence in advance. The Unite the Right lawsuit showed just how devastating the legal process can be to these groups. All the proof of coordination is right there, laying just beneath the surface waiting to be discovered, or in the case of many of these Jan 6 rioters, laying out in plain sight.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

16th February 2021, 08:46 PM	#20
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,718	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Several of them already have been criminally charged with conspiracy. There's very damning evidence that both the Oathkeepers and Proud Boys planned for coordinated anti-government violence in advance. Good. Quote: The Unite the Right lawsuit showed just how devastating the legal process can be to these groups. All the proof of coordination is right there, laying just beneath the surface waiting to be discovered, or in the case of many of these Jan 6 rioters, laying out in plain sight. Perhaps the lawsuit against these groups is stronger than I was wildass guessing.

16th February 2021, 09:11 PM	#21
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,700	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Well he will always have Rudy, unless he gets disbarred. I think Trump has fired Rudy. Let me find a link. ETA: https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/16/polit...ump/index.html

16th February 2021, 11:12 PM	#22
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,818	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Well he will always have Rudy, unless he gets disbarred. Does Rudy even have a FL license? This isn't like working on Trump's election fraud where any state license will do. Maybe it doesn't matter if the lawsuit is about what he did as POTUS? Oh, and Giuliani is also named in one of the suits. I guess he could ask to go pro se.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 16th February 2021 at 11:14 PM.

16th February 2021, 11:43 PM	#23
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,397	Originally Posted by phiwum The SJC has ruled that the President is immune from lawsuits related to his official duties. Of course, we may all reasonably claim that trying to overturn an election is hardly an official duty, but the WAPO article says that the exemption has been interpreted broadly. One could argue that Trump was defending the legitimacy of our democracy by trying to reject fraudulent election results. Even though the claims of fraud have been dismissed by the courts, it may be enough that he genuinely[1] believed that the results were fraudulent and required fixing. The fact that he was mistaken wouldn't mean he wasn't actually doing what he regarded as his duty. Few people here would take the argument seriously, I'm sure, but I wonder how many justices would buy it. It's one possibility. It's also very possible that they'll distinguish between the duties of president Dolt 45, and the goonish behavior of candidate Toupee Fiasco who was yelling about fraud to the rubes and white supremacist gangs. I doubt he ever made any such distinction, but a good DA office should be able to dig through the regulations and make a case.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,397

17th February 2021, 12:09 AM	#24
Egg Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,552	Originally Posted by dudalb This. I supect the suits from people who Donnie owed money to will do much more damage then any other liablity he has. That would depend on whom he owes money to. Some of them just poison you if you can't pay it back and are no longer of any political use.
Egg Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,552	__________________ _{"That's the thing with eggs: It's all about chicks and getting laid." - Wuschel} _{"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg" - Samuel Butler} _{“When arguing with a stone an egg is always wrong” - African proverb} _{“A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked” - Bernard Meltzer}

17th February 2021, 12:36 AM	#25
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,985	Originally Posted by phiwum I'm not surprised they said that. It just seems to me that the first obvious defense is that this was part of his official capacity, not personal. It would be up to the plaintiffs to show that this was indeed personal. And maybe they can do that. I think it's very plausibly not official, but I'm not on the SJC and I genuinely have no idea how they might view it. The actions on Jan 6 and the preceding two months aren't personal matters just because the plaintiff says so. If the defendant disputes that characterization (which they surely will, unless I'm terribly mistaken), then it's up to the court to decide. Agreed. I think it may be difficult to separate his personal and his official capacity at that point.

17th February 2021, 05:12 AM	#26
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,904	Another lesson from the UTR lawsuit is that, while these lawsuits can be devastating to violent right wing groups, they don't move fast. The UTR lawsuit is still grinding it's way through the courts. The wheels of justice move slowly. While this has the benefit of turning the destruction of right wing extremists into a years long tantric torture session, it's probably not going to be a remedy for social ills in the short term future. Such a lawsuit might still be grinding through the courts in 2024 if Trump wanted to take another stab at running for office.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

17th February 2021, 05:13 AM	#27
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 25,727	Originally Posted by Crossbow This sounds like a case for: Better Call Saul Even Saul Goodman looks more ethical than Rudy Giuliani at this point.
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

17th February 2021, 05:16 AM	#28
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 25,727	I know Dominion and Smartmatic have sued Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani, and Fox News too, if memory serves. I keep wondering why they haven't named Trump as a co-defendant.
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

17th February 2021, 05:19 AM	#29
Crossbow Seeking Honesty and Sanity Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 13,307	Originally Posted by Puppycow Even Saul Goodman looks more ethical than Rudy Giuliani at this point. If that is the case, then maybe Trump can hire the very old and very well established law firm of "Howe, Dewey and Cheetum". By the way , I am sure that 'shemp' is quite familiar with this law firm.
	__________________ I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency. On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool." A man's best friend is his dogma.

17th February 2021, 08:38 AM	#30
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 40,201	It's "Dewey, Cheatham & Howe." http://dewey-cheatham-howe.com/
	__________________ If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set. "...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, ~~Trump~~ shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will "[shemp is] a most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality." - Shakespeare Last edited by shemp; 17th February 2021 at 08:39 AM.

17th February 2021, 12:59 PM	#31
Crossbow Seeking Honesty and Sanity Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 13,307	Originally Posted by shemp It's "Dewey, Cheatham & Howe." http://dewey-cheatham-howe.com/ Thanks much! I was sure that knew that you knew the truth concerning that venerable and highly respected law firm.
	__________________ I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency. On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool." A man's best friend is his dogma.

18th February 2021, 08:43 AM	#32
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,857	These lawsuits and results can not come quickly enough for me.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

18th February 2021, 11:02 AM	#33
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,550	Originally Posted by alfaniner These lawsuits and results can not come quickly enough for me. I'm afraid this will be some slow, drawn-out pain. Think of schadenfreude as a delicious journey, not a destination.

18th February 2021, 05:01 PM	#34
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,048	Originally Posted by dudalb This. I supect the suits from people who Donnie owed money to will do much more damage then any other liablity he has. He'll have to pay some heavy vig to punt that debt a little way into the future, and every week it'll be "Screw you, where's my money?". His father could deal with the Mob. Donnie can't. Daddy always looked after that for him. In fact, he's been looked after by father-figures riding his inherited wealth all his life. Who's looking after him now?
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

18th February 2021, 05:04 PM	#35
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,048	Originally Posted by Craig4 I'm afraid this will be some slow, drawn-out pain. Think of schadenfreude as a delicious journey, not a destination. A dish best eaten cold, so you don't have to hurry.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150