Continuation Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3

[C_Felix]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

This morning, President Trump claimed that no one had heard of Juneteenth until he made it famous by scheduling a rally on that date before pushing the rally back one day.

Juneteenth has been a State holiday in Texas since 1980. Forty-eight states acknowledge it as an official or a ceremonial holiday.

But no one had ever heard of it.

.
Don’t we have enough evidence to say, “Let’s sit him down with a panel of psychiatrists and see what conclusion they come to”?

But what about Biden!?

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

This morning, President Trump claimed that no one had heard of Juneteenth until he made it famous by scheduling a rally on that date before pushing the rally back one day.

Juneteenth has been a State holiday in Texas since 1980. Forty-eight states acknowledge it as an official or a ceremonial holiday.

But no one had ever heard of it.
....

But his White House, his staff informed him, had issued commemorative statements about it during the last three years.

Quote:

Trump asked an aide during his interview with Wall Street Journal, and she told him the White House had put out a statement commemorating Juneteenth last year. The White House has done so the past three years of his presidency.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/st...sy/3214013001/

I guess if he didn't tweet it, it never happened.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by C_Felix

But what about Biden!?

Biden never heard of it either.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

This morning, President Trump claimed that no one had heard of Juneteenth until he made it famous by scheduling a rally on that date before pushing the rally back one day.

Juneteenth has been a State holiday in Texas since 1980. Forty-eight states acknowledge it as an official or a ceremonial holiday.

But no one had ever heard of it.

.
Don’t we have enough evidence to say, “Let’s sit him down with a panel of psychiatrists and see what conclusion they come to”?

The universe revolves around Trump. He hadn't heard of it, ergo no one had heard of it. Now that he knows about it, it's famous.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Bob001

But his White House, his staff informed him, had issued commemorative statements about it during the last three years.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/st...sy/3214013001/

I guess if he didn't tweet it, it never happened.

That's hilarious.

[dann]

To be fair, Trump should at least get credit for making Juneteenth famous in the rest of the world. I don't remember hearing about it till now, but I also read very few White House statements.
From now on, all over Earth, there will be people hearing references to Juneteenth, thinking, 'What a ******* idiot!'
And we have Trump to thank for that!

[dann]

"It's too much winning. We can't take it anymore."

Quote:

Barry shared a story about when Donald was a young man and turned a game of catch with Barry's seven year-old son into a cruel contest.
"Donald kept throwing it faster and faster, harder and harder, until I hear this crack and the ball hit David's head. Donald had to beat the seven year-old."
This cold-hearted nature followed him into his political career. As president, Donald Trump has treated the children of asylum-seeking immigrants with great cruelty, separating them from their parents and locking them in cages. During our current pandemic, with over 116,000 dead in the US and more succumbing every hour, he has been so cavalier as to advocate dangerous unproven cures.
The psychologist in the Trump family speaks (CNN, June 17, 2020)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[varwoche]

It's bleakly amusing that Trump checks off each and every ASPD symptom. While this isn't a fresh observation, it's crystalized by his recent bizarre behavior concerning pandemic.

• Disregard for right and wrong
• Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others
• Being callous, cynical and disrespectful of others
• Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or personal pleasure
• Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated
• Recurring problems with the law, including criminal behavior
• Repeatedly violating the rights of others through intimidation and dishonesty
• Impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead
• Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, aggression or violence
• Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others
• Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behavior with no regard for the safety of self or others
• Poor or abusive relationships
• Failure to consider the negative consequences of behavior or learn from them
• Being consistently irresponsible and repeatedly failing to fulfill work or financial obligations

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by varwoche

It's bleakly amusing that Trump checks off each and every ASPD symptom. While this isn't a fresh observation, it's crystalized by his recent bizarre behavior concerning pandemic.

• Disregard for right and wrong
• Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others
• Being callous, cynical and disrespectful of others
• Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or personal pleasure
• Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated
• Recurring problems with the law, including criminal behavior
• Repeatedly violating the rights of others through intimidation and dishonesty
• Impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead
• Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, aggression or violence
• Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others
• Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behavior with no regard for the safety of self or others
• Poor or abusive relationships
• Failure to consider the negative consequences of behavior or learn from them
• Being consistently irresponsible and repeatedly failing to fulfill work or financial obligations

The thing is that almost everyone else is constrained by the consequences for such behavior. People get fired, their spouses divorce them, they get beaten up or worse by people they piss off, they get sued, they get arrested etc., etc. Trump's money and his lifetime employment in his family business are his shields. When/if he loses in November, it may be the first time in his life anybody has said "Enough!"

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by varwoche

It's bleakly amusing that Trump checks off each and every ASPD symptom. While this isn't a fresh observation, it's crystalized by his recent bizarre behavior concerning pandemic.

• Disregard for right and wrong
• Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others
• Being callous, cynical and disrespectful of others
• Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or personal pleasure
• Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated
• Recurring problems with the law, including criminal behavior
• Repeatedly violating the rights of others through intimidation and dishonesty
• Impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead
• Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, aggression or violence
• Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others
• Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behavior with no regard for the safety of self or others
• Poor or abusive relationships
• Failure to consider the negative consequences of behavior or learn from them
• Being consistently irresponsible and repeatedly failing to fulfill work or financial obligations

While this somewhat mirrors the DSM-V criteria for APD, this is not the actual criteria. It's a list designed to inform laypeople.

https://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/car...terial/dsm.pdf
At the link, you will find the actual DSM V criteria (and the DSM-IV for comparison) for ASPD and you will find that it isn't such a clear checklist of behaviors.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Bob001

The thing is that almost everyone else is constrained by the consequences for such behavior. People get fired, their spouses divorce them, they get beaten up or worse by people they piss off, they get sued, they get arrested etc., etc. Trump's money and his lifetime employment in his family business are his shields. When/if he loses in November, it may be the first time in his life anybody has said "Enough!"

I agree. He's always held all the cards of money and power. He has so many enablers that protect him from the consequences of his actions and more so than ever now.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I agree. He's always held all the cards of money and power. He has so many enablers that protect him from the consequences of his actions and more so than ever now.

This describes many people who are rich and/or powerful. It sounds like the "real diagnosis" is affluenza. In the sociocultural milleu of people like Trump, his behavior is pretty much par for the course. Maybe it's time we stop electing rich and powerful people to the Presidency?

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by xjx388

This describes many people who are rich and/or powerful. It sounds like the "real diagnosis" is affluenza. In the sociocultural milleu of people like Trump, his behavior is pretty much par for the course. Maybe it's time we stop electing rich and powerful people to the Presidency?

I wouldn't make a generalization like that. Many people who are rich and powerful today started out in modest circumstances and succeeded through hard work and great luck. They at least learned some basic social skills. And most rich people -- corporate executives, star athletes, movie stars -- still answer to others. We've all seen how fast and far they can fall if they screw up. But Trump is unique. He has never answered to anybody. He grew up as the pampered child of a rich crook. His first and only job was to work for his father's small privately held business, which he later took over. He has never answered to a boss or a board or stockholders. He has demonstrated an ability to evade legal consequences for gross mismanagement, tax evasion and outright fraud. Trump behaves like a toddler because he's never been treated as anything else.

[Stacyhs]

This is a good example why Dr. Lee's group felt they had a duty to warn of how dangerous Trump is. UK vs US in virus cases trend:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post13137721

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by xjx388

This describes many people who are rich and/or powerful. It sounds like the "real diagnosis" is affluenza. In the sociocultural milleu of people like Trump, his behavior is pretty much par for the course. Maybe it's time we stop electing rich and powerful people to the Presidency?

Are you back to this false equivalence again?

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Are you back to this false equivalence again?

Elaborate. Because I see a typical “born with a silver spoon in his mouth” rich kid, not a “psychopath.” To be sure, maybe there’s a argument that rich kids are generally psychopaths, but then you have to explain why a psychopath like JFK is revered and one like Trump is “dangerously mentally ill.”

[dann]

Originally Posted by varwoche

... Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behavior with no regard for the safety of self or others ...

FTFY.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Elaborate. Because I see a typical “born with a silver spoon in his mouth” rich kid, not a “psychopath.” To be sure, maybe there’s a argument that rich kids are generally psychopaths, but then you have to explain why a psychopath like JFK is revered and one like Trump is “dangerously mentally ill.”

Are you making a remote diagnosis?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by jimbob

Are you making a remote diagnosis?

Of course not. Only qualified medical professionals can do that. Except they are not allowed to. (At least, that is what I have learned from this thread).

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by jimbob

Are you making a remote diagnosis?

Not I!

If “remote diagnosis” is a thing (I don’t think it is, but maybe you do), then we must consider the fact that Presidents have been remotely diagnosed before. JFK is one who has been so diagnosed.

If these remote diagnoses have any validity, which many here seem to think, it means that we’ve had mentally ill Presidents. Some of these mentally ill Presidents are considered the best we’ve had.

Therefore, it’s not the mental illness that makes a President bad or dangerous. In fact, it would seem that having traits deemed psychopathic is a good thing in a President. What matters -what makes them dangerous- are the things they say, do and believe.

As for my own opinion, mental illness is completely irrelevant and undiagnosable from afar. I put no validity in pop psychological profiles of presidents or conferences convened to examine the mental status of a person no one in the room has ever met.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Elaborate. Because I see a typical “born with a silver spoon in his mouth” rich kid, not a “psychopath.” To be sure, maybe there’s a argument that rich kids are generally psychopaths, but then you have to explain why a psychopath like JFK is revered and one like Trump is “dangerously mentally ill.”

You keep making yourself more ridiculous. JFK was a wounded war hero who won elections for the House and Senate before he ran for President, and who -- despite his personal failings -- saw himself as a public servant. He didn't live long enough to accomplish much, but he was a responsible, competent chief executive. He didn't go into politics to make money. To compare someone like that to Trump is an obscenity.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by Bob001

You keep making yourself more ridiculous. JFK was a wounded war hero who won elections for the House and Senate before he ran for President, and who -- despite his personal failings -- saw himself as a public servant. He didn't live long enough to accomplish much, but he was a responsible, competent chief executive. He didn't go into politics to make money. To compare someone like that to Trump is an obscenity.

You are missing the point, which is not whether or not JFK was actually a psychopath or to compare him to Trump.

[carrps]

Originally Posted by xjx388

You are missing the point, which is not whether or not JFK was actually a psychopath or to compare him to Trump.

Then, what is the point???

[xjx388]

Trump is a spoiled rich kid. Spoiled rich kids are narcissitic, selfish, used to getting their way, have the resources to stay out of trouble, etc -they have many traits that have been defined as psychopathic.

JFK was a spoiled rich kid too. Trump and JFK are similar in a lot of ways, they share a lot of traits, whether or not anyone wants to admit it. They both had domineering fathers. They both went to elite schools. They are both notorious womanizers. No, they are not similar in temperment and aptitude, not by a long shot. Which is my point.

You can't diagnose a mental illness by simply looking at traits and checking off boxes. Even if you could, having a mental illness does not determine if a person is good or bad. It certainly doesn't determine if a person will make a good or bad President. What does determine that is the actual things the person does, says and believes. That's it.

[3point14]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Trump is a spoiled rich kid. Spoiled rich kids are narcissitic, selfish, used to getting their way, have the resources to stay out of trouble, etc -they have many traits that have been defined as psychopathic.

JFK was a spoiled rich kid too. Trump and JFK are similar in a lot of ways, they share a lot of traits, whether or not anyone wants to admit it. They both had domineering fathers. They both went to elite schools. They are both notorious womanizers. No, they are not similar in temperment and aptitude, not by a long shot. Which is my point.

You can't diagnose a mental illness by simply looking at traits and checking off boxes. Even if you could, having a mental illness does not determine if a person is good or bad. It certainly doesn't determine if a person will make a good or bad President. What does determine that is the actual things the person does, says and believes. That's it.

Er, yes...?



Oh, and this exchange amuses me because "Ask not what your country can do for you" is not something I can envision Trump or anyone wearing a MAGA hat saying.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by 3point14

Er, yes...?

Then why is it so important to medicalize Trump's obvious flaws?

Quote:

Oh, and this exchange amuses me because "Ask not what your country can do for you" is not something I can envision Trump or anyone wearing a MAGA hat saying.

Me neither. As I said, Trump and JFK are not comparable in their aptitude for the Presidency but they do share some commonalities due to their rich kid upbringings.

[Stacyhs]

Those boxes are checked off precisely because of what the person does, says and believes.

[3point14]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Then why is it so important to medicalize Trump's obvious flaws?

Oh, sorry, this isn't really a topic I think is worthwhile discussing. The man's clearly a fruitloop and all your objections to date haven't convinced me otherwise. It's really not worth discussing.

It was mainly about the JFK quote, really.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Then why is it so important to medicalize Trump's obvious flaws? ...

Because it gives one better insight into Trump's actions and Tweets.

For example, he's still determined to wipe out the last remnant of the ACA. Why do that when the country is in the middle of a medical and economic crisis. It makes no sense!

Unless you recognize this is still all about Trump's obsession with revenge on Obama. Trump is so obsessed, destroying anything Obama gives Trump some perverse satisfaction.

Without recognizing Trump's pathology, the decision to stomp out the ACA makes no sense.

Now that we are nearing the election and have the chance to get rid of Trump, understanding his pathology will be a great benefit in devising ways to defeat him. Get under his skin (not hard to do) and he loses all focus that intelligence and common sense would otherwise give a non-pathologic narcissist.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by xjx388

.....
JFK was a spoiled rich kid too.
.....
What does determine that is the actual things the person does, says and believes. That's it.

JFK was certainly a rich kid. Whether he was "spoiled" is debatable. He was raised in a family that imposed high standards and was trained from childhood to believe that public service was a noble calling. Trump was trained to make money any way he could get away with.

And you refuse to grasp that the core of psychiatric diagnosis is what someone does, says and believes, and we have 40 years of documentation for Trump. There's no MRI for mental illness. You bend yourself into a pretzel to contend that Trump doesn't meet the observable diagnostic criteria for multiple severe disorders, and then you claim JFK was a psychopath. If Ringling Bros. was still around you could get a job as a headlning contortionist.

[dann]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Maybe it's time we stop electing rich and powerful people to the Presidency?

I thought they were all just humans.

[Stacyhs]

Not only is Trump crazy but so are a lot of his supporters. At least two in this video are wearing Trump shirts but I'd bet most, if not all, of them are Trumpers.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=980394025712420

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Not only is Trump crazy but so are a lot of his supporters. At least two in this video are wearing Trump shirts but I'd bet most, if not all, of them are Trumpers.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=980394025712420

That FB page is addicting.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Bob001

You bend yourself into a pretzel to contend that Trump doesn't meet the observable diagnostic criteria for multiple severe disorders, and then you claim JFK was a psychopath.

JFK is dead, so we say what we like about him. But Trump is still president, so any observations regarding his mental state are illegal invalid!

Quote:

JFK was certainly a rich kid. Whether he was "spoiled" is debatable. He was raised in a family that imposed high standards and was trained from childhood to believe that public service was a noble calling. Trump was trained to make money any way he could get away with.

Can a person be trained to be a psychopath? If Trump was trained to behave like that, how can it be described as mental illness? I say Trump's not a psychopath at all, he's just a criminal!

[Modified]

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

JFK is dead, so we say what we like about him. But Trump is still president, so any observations regarding his mental state are illegal invalid!

Can a person be trained to be a psychopath? If Trump was trained to behave like that, how can it be described as mental illness? I say Trump's not a psychopath at all, he's just a criminal!

Someone may be ruthless in business, but show empathy in other situations. Trump never does. He may be incapable of expressing empathy in a recognizable way, or unwilling to do so even when it would benefit him. The most obvious explanation though, is that he has none.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

That FB page is addicting.

But not in a good way.

Most of those people in some way or another are claiming that wearing masks somehow violates "God's law." Question: When does commonplace religious faith become genuine psychiatric delusion?

[dann]

When does genuine psychiatric delusion become commonplace religious faith?

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by 3point14

Oh, sorry, this isn't really a topic I think is worthwhile discussing. The man's clearly a fruitloop and all your objections to date haven't convinced me otherwise. It's really not worth discussing.

It was mainly about the JFK quote, really.

It's not about whether or not he's a friutloop - I agree that he is. I'ts about what psychiatrists should do or should not do, ethically and within their practice guidelines.

[3point14]

Originally Posted by xjx388

It's not about whether or not he's a friutloop - I agree that he is. I'ts about what psychiatrists should do or should not do, ethically and within their practice guidelines.

Yes, I know your position. You're wrong.

[varwoche]

Xjx388 stated an opinion. It's neither right nor wrong.

In my opinion, while I appreciate the presumed reasoning behind the professional guidelines... (1) the observations of Trump in the wild are so voluminous, an observer is able to know more than what they would learn in a 50 minute face-to-face. (2) the risks arguably justify going against the guidelines.