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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 11th November 2020, 09:14 PM   #1201
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Round and round the mulberry bush....

So you're saying the diagnosis isn't accurate?
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Old 11th November 2020, 09:26 PM   #1202
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Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Round and round the mulberry bush....

So you're saying the diagnosis isn't accurate?

Iím saying it may or may not be and itís irrelevant.

If a father (who is, say, a gastroenterologist) diagnoses his own kid with anxiety and prescribes the kid Xanax, itís unethical even if he was right.
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Old 11th November 2020, 10:49 PM   #1203
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Iím saying it may or may not be and itís irrelevant.
[looks at thread title] How is it irrelevant and how can you possibly not know?
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Old 11th November 2020, 11:12 PM   #1204
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Its not my ďway to skirt it.Ē You brought a situation up and Iím telling you the actual ethical issues with that situation. Read the ethical code.



Iím married to a doctor. Not only would it be unethical for her to diagnose me with a mental health issue, itís also illegal for her to treat me for it. The exception in the law applies to emergency situations, like the one you describe. Dr. Husband absolutely could not diagnose his child with ADD and prescribe him Ritalin.

No way is it unethical for Mary to diagnose her uncle as they do not have a close emotional relationship. Another difference is that Mary Trump isn't treating Donald.
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Old 12th November 2020, 01:22 AM   #1205
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Sounds like a Goldilocks story: You can have too much information, or too little information, but only a shrink following APA strictures can get it just right.
Indeed and coupled with an argument from incredulity - "I don't think he'd behave like David Koresh or Jim Jones, so he's not really a dangerous sociopath"
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Old 12th November 2020, 08:13 AM   #1206
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Indeed and coupled with an argument from incredulity - "I don't think he'd behave like David Koresh or Jim Jones, so he's not really a dangerous sociopath"
But here's the thing -I have never said, "He's not really a dangerous sociopath." That's a misrepresentation of my argument which is solely about Medical Ethics.

You, I and everyone in this thread can see the way Trump is acting -which is very cult-leader-like- and conclude, "It's not a good idea to have a cult-leader president; that's dangerous." We agree on that much. Whether or not his behavior is due to mental illness or is a carefully cultivated act to capture the hearts and minds of his base is totally irrelevant. Whatever he is doing is bad.
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Old 12th November 2020, 09:09 AM   #1207
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No way is it unethical for Mary to diagnose her uncle as they do not have a close emotional relationship. Another difference is that Mary Trump isn't treating Donald.
One thing we know for sure from her book: she doesn't like her uncle very much and she blames him to some extent for what happened to her father. Her book protrays a closely intertwined relationship, even if it wasn't a "close emotional relationship."

Do you think professionals should offer a professional opinion about people they have a clear bias against?
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Old 12th November 2020, 09:14 AM   #1208
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
[looks at thread title] How is it irrelevant and how can you possibly not know?
It's irrelevant because simple observation of his public behavior tells me all I need to know. Which answers the question on how I can possibly not know -because it doesn't matter.

It certainly didn't matter to you before we ever heard of the Yale Group. What mattered was his actual behavior.
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Old 12th November 2020, 10:23 AM   #1209
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
One thing we know for sure from her book: she doesn't like her uncle very much and she blames him to some extent for what happened to her father. Her book protrays a closely intertwined relationship, even if it wasn't a "close emotional relationship."

Do you think professionals should offer a professional opinion about people they have a clear bias against?
I am reminded of the introduction to "Sudden Noises from Inanimate Objects," which is the biography of a fictional composer named Simon Silver:

[quote]That Silber and I were no longer friends at the time of his death - that the news of his demise was neither unexpected, when it reached me, nor entirely unwelcome - might seem to raise a doubt as to my fitness for the job of commentator but (as anyone who really knew him will attest) never to have Hated Silber would mean never to have known hm.[quote]

I don't think you can discount any diagnosis rendered by a professional who dislikes the subject of the diagnosis. Sometimes, once they've gotten to know the subject, 'dislike' is as good as it gets.
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Old 12th November 2020, 03:15 PM   #1210
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Here's a question that isn't just a rehash of everything we've talked about for years:

We assume for this question that the Yale Group is right on the money and Trump is dangerously mentally ill. We further assume that he has NPD and APD (known as Malignant Narcisicissm) and this diagnosis has predictive value for his behavior.

What is Trump's pathology going to drive him to do if all his lawsuits come to nothing, as they are destined to? Slink away? Launch nukes? Stage a coup? What?
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Old 12th November 2020, 04:33 PM   #1211
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
One thing we know for sure from her book: she doesn't like her uncle very much and she blames him to some extent for what happened to her father. Her book protrays a closely intertwined relationship, even if it wasn't a "close emotional relationship."

Do you think professionals should offer a professional opinion about people they have a clear bias against?
If they didn't, there would be very few, if any, professional opinions offered by anyone about a hellava lot of people in this world. Not liking someone very much does not mean a doctor is incapable of applying their professional knowledge accurately and fairly. Do you think all psychiatrists/psychologists like their patients?
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Old 12th November 2020, 05:58 PM   #1212
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If they didn't, there would be very few, if any, professional opinions offered by anyone about a hellava lot of people in this world. Not liking someone very much does not mean a doctor is incapable of applying their professional knowledge accurately and fairly. Do you think all psychiatrists/psychologists like their patients?

No, I donít. But most of those professionals donít blame their patients for their fatherís troubles.
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Old 12th November 2020, 06:05 PM   #1213
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No, I don’t. But most of those professionals don’t blame their patients for their father’s troubles.
You're vastly overstating Mary's position. She blames her sociopathic grandfather almost entirely and her father's own innate personality more than Donald. Did you actually read her book?

Last edited by Stacyhs; 12th November 2020 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 12th November 2020, 06:31 PM   #1214
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Here's a question that isn't just a rehash of everything we've talked about for years:

We assume for this question that the Yale Group is right on the money and Trump is dangerously mentally ill. We further assume that he has NPD and APD (known as Malignant Narcisicissm) and this diagnosis has predictive value for his behavior.

What is Trump's pathology going to drive him to do if all his lawsuits come to nothing, as they are destined to? Slink away? Launch nukes? Stage a coup? What?


First, you are discounting the nightmare we have with COVID that is directly related to Trump's pathology.

Second, are you seriously discounting the damage Trump is doing and will continue to do to this country because of his petty revenge and as he seeks to keep his followers worshipping him?
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Old 12th November 2020, 06:33 PM   #1215
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No, I donít. But most of those professionals donít blame their patients for their fatherís troubles.
So you didn't read the book then?

And before you ask, yes, I did read it.
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Old 12th November 2020, 06:35 PM   #1216
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You're vastly overstating Mary's position. She blames her sociopathic grandfather almost entirely and her father's own innate personality more than Donald. Did you actually read her book?
Yep, that's what I read in it as well.

She also blames her sociopathic grandfather for the pathology Donald has.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 12th November 2020 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 12th November 2020, 06:38 PM   #1217
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You're vastly overstating Mary's position. She blames her sociopathic grandfather almost entirely and her father's own innate personality more than Donald. Did you actually read her book?

Yes. And yes, her intense dislike of her Grandfather is palpable. Itís rivaled only by her obvious dislike for her Uncle. She doesnít pity him or have any compassion for him -in her own words.

Do you think professionals should be diagnosing people they have no pity or compassion for?
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Old 12th November 2020, 06:50 PM   #1218
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


First, you are discounting the nightmare we have with COVID that is directly related to Trump's pathology.

Second, are you seriously discounting the damage Trump is doing and will continue to do to this country because of his petty revenge and as he seeks to keep his followers worshipping him?
Exactly. Besides his incredibly bad response to the Covid pandemic, he has now almost entirely given up on actually governing and is consumed with this ridiculous voter fraud delusion. He's removing people like Esper and replacing them with loyalists who will do his bidding without question. He hasn't attended an intelligence briefing in two weeks and his interest in managing the pandemic is nil even as new cases and deaths have soared. The only thing Trump is interested in is himself which has been the case his entire life.
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Old 12th November 2020, 07:10 PM   #1219
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yes. And yes, her intense dislike of her Grandfather is palpable. It’s rivaled only by her obvious dislike for her Uncle. She doesn’t pity him or have any compassion for him -in her own words.

Do you think professionals should be diagnosing people they have no pity or compassion for?
You didn't answer the question: Did you read her book? Or maybe you did answer it by not answering it.

I don't think you did. Because if you did, you'd understand why she disliked her grandfather. Donald is a chip off the old block. He was as much a sociopath as Donald.

Mary says she used to have compassion for Donald. And I'd bet she diagnosed him as a sociopath before 2017.

Quote:
Does she love her uncle? “No, I don’t,” she says without hesitation. “I used to feel compassion for him. I really did. But then that became impossible when I started learning about things that he had done and seeing what he’s been doing since January 20, 2017.”

Mary’s guidebook to the Trump psychological labyrinth is an argument for the notion that the child is father of the man. If we are all products of our circumstances, does Trump deserve some pity? She is adamant again. “No, he does not. I completely understand having sympathy and empathy for the child who did suffer mightily but it’s no excuse for his behaviour.

“He’s an adult human being who knows the difference between right and wrong, even though he doesn’t think the rules apply to him. He knows what he’s doing and one of the reasons we’re in this position is because he’s never been held accountable for anything. So his transgressions become more egregious over time and he needs to be held to account.”
Do you think a psychologist is incapable of diagnosing someone with a mental illness only if they can feel pity and compassion for them? Is that prerequisite for recognizing psychopathy in someone? A doctor had to feel pity and compassion for Ted Bundy or Charles Manson before they could diagnose them? Really? Is this really the hill you want to die on?
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Old 12th November 2020, 09:24 PM   #1220
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yes. And yes, her intense dislike of her Grandfather is palpable. Itís rivaled only by her obvious dislike for her Uncle. She doesnít pity him or have any compassion for him -in her own words.

Do you think professionals should be diagnosing people they have no pity or compassion for?
Why would pity or compassion be required for an accurate diagnosis?
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Old 12th November 2020, 09:52 PM   #1221
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
....
Do you think professionals should be diagnosing people they have no pity or compassion for?
Now you're really going out on a limb. Do you think medical professionals can't treat patients properly when they don't feel "pity or compassion?" If a serial killer gets shot in a gunfight with police, the ER docs can treat his wounds and keep him alive without feeling the slightest shred of "pity or compassion." The docs might even be motivated by an intense desire to see him spend the rest of his life doing hard time. They don't have to like him or care about him to do their jobs.

Last edited by Bob001; 12th November 2020 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 13th November 2020, 12:18 AM   #1222
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Now you're really going out on a limb. Do you think medical professionals can't treat patients properly when they don't feel "pity or compassion?" If a serial killer gets shot in a gunfight with police, the ER docs can treat his wounds and keep him alive without feeling the slightest shred of "pity or compassion." The docs might even be motivated by an intense desire to see him spend the rest of his life doing hard time. They don't have to like him or care about him to do their jobs.

I very much believe that a clinician who cannot feel the most basic human compassion for their patients should NOT be treating said patients.

For the most part, people who enter the healing arts do so out of a primary motivation to help people. That comes from a place of empathy. The idea that people may do things we donít like, but they are still humans worthy of, at the very least, compassion.

When a clinician says, ďI have no pity or compassionĒ for someone thatís a big alarm that they should have nothing to do with any aspect of their medical lives.
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Old 13th November 2020, 12:20 AM   #1223
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I very much believe that a clinician who cannot feel the most basic human compassion for their patients should NOT be treating said patients.

For the most part, people who enter the healing arts do so out of a primary motivation to help people. That comes from a place of empathy. The idea that people may do things we donít like, but they are still humans worthy of, at the very least, compassion.

When a clinician says, ďI have no pity or compassionĒ for someone thatís a big alarm that they should have nothing to do with any aspect of their medical lives.
I think you're confusing diagnosis with treatment
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Old 13th November 2020, 12:22 AM   #1224
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Why would pity or compassion be required for an accurate diagnosis?

Because absent those feelings, bIas is a huge threat to the safe and effective practice of medicine.

Would you want to be treated by a doc who felt that way about you?

Once again, I am stunned that these seem to be foreign concepts to so many posters in this thread.
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Old 13th November 2020, 12:24 AM   #1225
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
I think you're confusing diagnosis with treatment

Bias affects both. Letís say you are on trial for murder you know you didnít commit. Would you want the niece that hates you and has no compassion for you to be the one doing the psych evaluation?
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Old 13th November 2020, 12:34 AM   #1226
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Bias affects both. Letís say you are on trial for murder you know you didnít commit. Would you want the niece that hates you and has no compassion for you to be the one doing the psych evaluation?
I don't think that's true, a diagnosis is either correct or incorrect.
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Old 13th November 2020, 12:36 AM   #1227
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Because absent those feelings, bIas is a huge threat to the safe and effective practice of medicine.

Would you want to be treated by a doc who felt that way about you?

Once again, I am stunned that these seem to be foreign concepts to so many posters in this thread.
She's not treating him, she's diagnosing him. If Trump is a narcissist, he's a narcissist regardless if you hate or love him for it.
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Old 13th November 2020, 01:03 AM   #1228
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
I don't think that's true, a diagnosis is either correct or incorrect.

A diagnosis based in objective methodology is more likely to be accurate.

And you have to keep in mind the primary purpose of diagnosis: to inform treatment.
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Old 13th November 2020, 01:15 AM   #1229
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
A diagnosis based in objective methodology is more likely to be accurate.

And you have to keep in mind the primary purpose of diagnosis: to inform treatment.
There's no reason a person can't make a diagnosis based in objective methodology when the subject is someone they dislike. I think it's a pretty broad claim that no objective diagnosis can be made in any case against someone they dislike.

If your argument is that Mary Trump specifically was not object of her analysis of Trump, well I don't think that's been demonstrated at all either.
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Old 13th November 2020, 01:41 AM   #1230
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I very much believe that a clinician who cannot feel the most basic human compassion for their patients should NOT be treating said patients.

For the most part, people who enter the healing arts do so out of a primary motivation to help people. That comes from a place of empathy. The idea that people may do things we donít like, but they are still humans worthy of, at the very least, compassion.

When a clinician says, ďI have no pity or compassionĒ for someone thatís a big alarm that they should have nothing to do with any aspect of their medical lives.
I already pointed out to you that Mary is not treating, nor has she ever treated, Trump so why do you insist on arguing this point? Diagnosis consists of a trained professional evaluating whether or not a person meets the criteria of the DSM of Mental Disorders for that diagnosis. One does not need to have pity or compassion for someone to accurately do that. Just. Stop. Digging.
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Old 13th November 2020, 05:53 AM   #1231
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I already pointed out to you that Mary is not treating, nor has she ever treated, Trump so why do you insist on arguing this point?

Virtue signallng, nothing but virtue signaling.
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Old 13th November 2020, 07:35 AM   #1232
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Because absent those feelings, bIas is a huge threat to the safe and effective practice of medicine.

Would you want to be treated by a doc who felt that way about you?

Once again, I am stunned that these seem to be foreign concepts to so many posters in this thread.
By this logic, any diagnosis of an inherently unlikeable mental illness (e.g. psychopathy, narcissism) can be rejected because the diagnosis implies that the doctor dislikes the subject and, therefore, can't render an unbiased diagnosis.
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Old 13th November 2020, 10:21 AM   #1233
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I already pointed out to you that Mary is not treating, nor has she ever treated, Trump so why do you insist on arguing this point? Diagnosis consists of a trained professional evaluating whether or not a person meets the criteria of the DSM of Mental Disorders for that diagnosis. One does not need to have pity or compassion for someone to accurately do that. Just. Stop. Digging.
I'm not digging, I'm standing up for the basics of medical ethics. You keep insisting that all mental health diagnosis consists of is comparing DSM criteria to behavior, as if the DSM is a mere checklist. I really do hate repeating myself, but you keep repeating the same erroneous arguments. The DSM is not a checklist. There is more to it than merely saying, "Full of himself? Check." There's a difference between pathological narcissism and garden-variety narcissism.

Empathy (which is really what we are talking about when talking about "pity and compassion") is foundational to medical practice. If a clinician literally does not care about a subject (or worse, has stong negative feelings toward them for deeply personal reasons) that introduces bias. When a mental health professional assesses a subject through the lens of bias, distortion is introduced. What a dispassionate clinician might interpret as non-pathological, a biased physician might interpret as pathological. The bias imparted by strong negative feelings can lead to biased diagnosis.

Do you really disagree that even arriving at a diagnosis requires dispassionate assessment of a subject?
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Old 13th November 2020, 10:29 AM   #1234
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
By this logic, any diagnosis of an inherently unlikeable mental illness (e.g. psychopathy, narcissism) can be rejected because the diagnosis implies that the doctor dislikes the subject and, therefore, can't render an unbiased diagnosis.
No. One can dislike a patient -a murderer in an ER- yet retain basic human empathy for the patient. But let's say that murderer in the ER murdered the doctor's wife. Should that doctor treat that patient?

If a doctor dislikes a patient to the extent that their judgements begin to be clouded, the ethical thing to do is to remove themselves from the case. It's entirely possible to diagnose and treat patients you don't like very much, but there IS a line that is crossed when a clinician is unable to be dispassionate and clinical.
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Old 13th November 2020, 10:44 AM   #1235
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And let's look at the other side of the coin. I've seen many posters, journalists, etc question the validity of the results of medical exams Trump has received from his doctors. That letter that said he's the healthiest President ever was attacked -and rightly so. That doctor's judgement was clouded by bias. Whether he admires Trump so much that he was willing to rubber stamp that letter OR he hates him so much he literally doesn't care, neither option is good or ethical practice of medicine.

How are you able to clearly recognize bias in the cases where he receives glowing bills of health yet can't recognize it when he gets the polar opposite?
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Old 13th November 2020, 11:03 AM   #1236
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No. One can dislike a patient -a murderer in an ER- yet retain basic human empathy for the patient. But let's say that murderer in the ER murdered the doctor's wife. Should that doctor treat that patient?
Mary despises Donald because of many of his past actions. If those actions are, in fact, despicable, then her reaction is reasonable. That doesn't automatically invalidate her diagnosis.

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If a doctor dislikes a patient to the extent that their judgements begin to be clouded <snip>
Yes. But you jumped from "dislike" to "clouded."

Evidence that Mary's judgment is clouded? Yes, she arguably violated her professional ethical standards by diagnosing Donald. That does not demonstrate that her judgment is clouded unless she's incorrect about either his mental health or the consequent danger he poses to others.

And AFAIK, Donald neither murdered the spouses of any of the Yale group nor screwed them out of inheritances.
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Old 13th November 2020, 11:07 AM   #1237
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
And let's look at the other side of the coin. I've seen many posters, journalists, etc question the validity of the results of medical exams Trump has received from his doctors. That letter that said he's the healthiest President ever was attacked -and rightly so.
so far, so good.

Quote:
That doctor's judgement was clouded by bias.
Are you sure it was bias? Are you sure he wasn't bribed or intimidated into giving an incorrect diagnosis?

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Whether he admires Trump so much that he was willing to rubber stamp that letter OR he hates him so much he literally doesn't care, neither option is good or ethical practice of medicine.
Agreed.

Quote:
How are you able to clearly recognize bias in the cases where he receives glowing bills of health yet can't recognize it when he gets the polar opposite?
I am trying to follow this. Are you saying that, because his doctor gave him an incorrect bill of health, it's self-evident that any conflicting diagnoses must be attributed to bias against Trump?
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Old 13th November 2020, 11:15 AM   #1238
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
so far, so good.



Are you sure it was bias? Are you sure he wasn't bribed or intimidated into giving an incorrect diagnosis?
Doesn't matter: bias was still a huge factor.

Quote:
Agreed.



I am trying to follow this. Are you saying that, because his doctor gave him an incorrect bill of health, it's self-evident that any conflicting diagnoses must be attributed to bias against Trump?
Not really. I'm illustrating how bias in medical diagnosis works in an example I think we can all agree on.

If we agree on that, then how am I getting so much pushback without so much as an acknowldegement that maybe Mary Trump is too biased to assess her uncle? She has explicitly admitted her inability to have compassion for him and made clear her dislike of him because he's a product of and just like his father/her grandfather -and it's clear she pretty much hated her grandfather.
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Old 13th November 2020, 11:19 AM   #1239
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Mary despises Donald because of many of his past actions. If those actions are, in fact, despicable, then her reaction is reasonable. That doesn't automatically invalidate her diagnosis.
It introduces bias.

Quote:
Yes. But you jumped from "dislike" to "clouded."
Intense dislike such as what Mary feels for Donald can cloud judgement. We can't rule it out, at the very least.

Quote:
Evidence that Mary's judgment is clouded? Yes, she arguably violated her professional ethical standards by diagnosing Donald. That does not demonstrate that her judgment is clouded unless she's incorrect about either his mental health or the consequent danger he poses to others.
Again, it doesn't really matter if she's correct or not. What matters is the ethics of doing what she's doing in the first place. And she didn't need to because her personal account of life in the Trump family was plenty.

Quote:
And AFAIK, Donald neither murdered the spouses of any of the Yale group nor screwed them out of inheritances.
The Yale Group has different ethical problem from Mary Trump. If Mary Trump was someone who was neutral towards Donald, if she hadn't admitted her complete lack of empathy for him, her ethical problem would be much less.
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Old 13th November 2020, 11:27 AM   #1240
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You didn't answer the question: Did you read her book? Or maybe you did answer it by not answering it.

I don't think you did. Because if you did, you'd understand why she disliked her grandfather. Donald is a chip off the old block. He was as much a sociopath as Donald.
I did read the book and I understand that. What I got from the book is that, because Donald is a chip off the old block, she also blames Donald for being complicit in the treatment her father got. Donald mirrored that.

Quote:
Mary says she used to have compassion for Donald. And I'd bet she diagnosed him as a sociopath before 2017.



Do you think a psychologist is incapable of diagnosing someone with a mental illness only if they can feel pity and compassion for them? Is that prerequisite for recognizing psychopathy in someone? A doctor had to feel pity and compassion for Ted Bundy or Charles Manson before they could diagnose them? Really? Is this really the hill you want to die on?
Absolutely. Empathy is a prerequisite to medical practice.
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