[Continuation] Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3 - Page 38

Stacyhs · 5th January 2021, 08:26 PM

Remember that Trump's lawyers have argued that while he's in office, not only can he not be indicted, he cannot even be investigated for crimes. Oh, yes,...he is scared ****less of being out of office.

CapelDodger · 5th January 2021, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I understand that your opinion is unpopular because it's wrong.

Wrong opinions can be very popular when they appeal to the general public (in whom I have little faith).

Stacyhs · 5th January 2021, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

Wrong opinions can be very popular when they appeal to the general public (in whom I have little faith).

True, but in this case it's both unpopular and wrong.

CapelDodger · 5th January 2021, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Remember that Trump's lawyers have argued that while he's in office, not only can he not be indicted, he cannot even be investigated for crimes. Oh, yes,...he is scared ****less of being out of office.

Trump is distracted enough not to think about life after the Presidency. When he does have to think about it he'll find it's a complete unknown - and nothing is more terrifying than the complete unknown.

CapelDodger · 5th January 2021, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

True, but in this case it's both unpopular and wrong.

Also onanistic. A peculiar triad, but there it is.

Skeptic Ginger · 5th January 2021, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

Trump is distracted enough not to think about life after the Presidency. When he does have to think about it he'll find it's a complete unknown - and nothing is more terrifying than the complete unknown.

I think this is true for the most part.

As long as he's convinced himself he still has a chance the election will be overthrown I imagine he puts the consequences of losing out of his mind as much as he can.

Between rage and being convinced he really can overturn the election, there're plenty of things to occupy his emotional brain.

What he does on Thursday, OTOH, is a complete mystery.

CapelDodger · 5th January 2021, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

What he does on Thursday, OTOH, is a complete mystery.

Trump will rail against Pence for letting him down. The emergent properties of the Trumptrash crowd gathering in DC for tomorrow's crescendo are a complete mystery.

Stacyhs · 5th January 2021, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

Trump is distracted enough not to think about life after the Presidency. When he does have to think about it he'll find it's a complete unknown - and nothing is more terrifying than the complete unknown.

Aren't you contradicting your first sentence with your second sentence? But Trump is terrified of life after the presidency which is exactly what this latest discussion has been been about: fear of losing the protection the presidency has afforded him. Despite what xjx388 has claimed, NPD does not exclude fear being a motivating factor in his behavior. He has presented no evidence for this claim. On the other hand, I've produced two articles by psychologists stating that those with NPD do have fear motivated behaviors.

xjx388 · 6th January 2021, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

C'mon man. You think that is a sane counter argument? So we have millions of insane people in this country? THAT is insane. Once again, rather than admit your position is wrong, you just keep digging in deeper and deeper. I hereby award you the Golden Shovel Award:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5285bc10a0.jpg

My position is correct; that you disagree is noted, but it’s not the be all end all of the argument. Nor is the fact that my position is unpopular.

But yes, as a layperson, if one believes that Trump rightfully won the election, then i believe they are insane. Not certifiably, not clinically; but, certainly in my estimation.

xjx388 · 6th January 2021, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Aren't you contradicting your first sentence with your second sentence? But Trump is terrified of life after the presidency which is exactly what this latest discussion has been been about: fear of losing the protection the presidency has afforded him. Despite what xjx388 has claimed, NPD does not exclude fear being a motivating factor in his behavior. He has presented no evidence for this claim. On the other hand, I've produced two articles by psychologists stating that those with NPD do have fear motivated behaviors.

xjx388 has never claimed that NPD excludes fear as a motivating factor. He has only claimed that NPD influences the content of that fear. In Trump’s case: fear of being a worthless failure.

But Mary Trump already told us he fears prosecution -a totally rational fear which suggests he isn’t as crazy as others have made him out to be.

xjx388 · 6th January 2021, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Because after 4 years of Trump displaying his pathology in a setting he couldn't control like he could in his private life, Dr Lee et al have been proven right and Frances has been proven wrong.

Conform or be cast out?

Bob001 · 6th January 2021, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by xjx388

...
But Mary Trump already told us he fears prosecution -a totally rational fear which suggests he isn’t as crazy as others have made him out to be.

What's your definition of "crazy?" Somebody can be severely disturbed with a warped view of reality and still recognize threats to his safety and well-being. The call with Raffenspurger by itself is plentiful evidence that Trump lives in the penthouse at Fantasyland.

Skeptic Ginger · 6th January 2021, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by xjx388

Conform or be cast out?

Lessons from medicine and geology:

The geologist who concluded that the evidence proved plate tectonics wasn't believed for about 10 years after the evidence was established.

H-pylori as a cause of gastric ulcers and the cholera source being contaminated water took ~10 years before those discoveries were accepted by the medical communities.

What these scientists had in common was the evidence clearly supported their positions.

OTOH, Dr Michael Behe has been trying for a couple decades to make the evidence based case for 'intelligent design'. He ignored the fact his original hypothesis, that the bacterial flagella had no genetic precursor, was refuted when genomic analysis found the flagella precursor. From there he went on to claim mitochondria had no precursor... and on and on he went trying to prove that evolution wasn't consistent with abiogenesis. He continues to fail.

Dr Frances is holding on to his initial assessment that because Trump's ND didn't cause him pain, it wasn't a mental illness.

The evidence is, beyond question, clear that Trump is suffering tremendously. Like Dr Behe, Dr Frances may go to the grave still holding onto the position Trump is not mentally ill. This is despite the fact it would exclude anyone successful in business being mentally ill. Obviously there is serious folly in that position. The evidence doesn't support Dr Frances. No amount of refusing to acknowledge Trump's mental illness is going to be accepted now or in the future.

The difference here is that the valid logical argument is evidence based. The competing argument you just made appears to be dismissing the facts as no more than an argumentum ad populum. And that is fallacious.

Stacyhs · 6th January 2021, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
C'mon man. You think that is a sane counter argument? So we have millions of insane people in this country? THAT is insane. Once again, rather than admit your position is wrong, you just keep digging in deeper and deeper. I hereby award you the Golden Shovel Award:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5285bc10a0.jpg

Originally Posted by xjx388

My position is correct; that you disagree is noted, but it’s not the be all end all of the argument. Nor is the fact that my position is unpopular.

But yes, as a layperson, if one believes that Trump rightfully won the election, then i believe they are insane. Not certifiably, not clinically; but, certainly in my estimation.

You flagrantly skirt the issue. It is not if YOU think that if one believes if Trump rightfully won the election then one is insane. What you said is that Dr. Lee claimed that if on believes Trump rightfully won the election...almost half the Republicans and others in the country...are insane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388
??? I don’t see how you can get that out of the article, especially the part I quoted. She very clearly said: 1)Delusions = fantasy world 2) We can infer something about Trump by looking at his followers, 3)His followers are delusional and therefore: we can infer Trump is delusional.

She very directly says Trump and his followers are insane. How did you not get that from her words? “Pathological narcissism,” and “delusional?”
Time out.

And I repeat: Lee is saying that Trump and his followers may be delusional about that one particular belief but she is most certainly not saying that they cannot distinguish a fantasy world from the real world to the point that they are insane.

Once again, you would rather take a stand to a ridiculous extreme than back down.

ETA: In my opinion, most Trump supporters aren't truly delusional about the election. They deep down know the election wasn't really rigged. They choose to believe it because it fits their emotional, political, and social needs. They want to believe it.

xjx388 · 6th January 2021, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

You flagrantly skirt the issue. It is not if YOU think that if one believes if Trump rightfully won the election then one is insane. What you said is that Dr. Lee claimed that if on believes Trump rightfully won the election...almost half the Republicans and others in the country...are insane.

And I repeat: Lee is saying that Trump and his followers may be delusional about that one particular belief but she is most certainly not saying that they cannot distinguish a fantasy world from the real world to the point that they are insane.

Once again, you would rather take a stand to a ridiculous extreme than back down.

If one suffers from delusions, they are mentally ill. She very directly stated that they are delusional in that they creating their desired reality.

In any case, Dr. Lee has nothing to do with my opinion as a layperson. If someone tells me that Trump won and there was massive fraud, despite the fact that there is no evidence of such, I think they are crazy.

All those protestors in DC right now are crazy.

Stacyhs · 6th January 2021, 01:26 PM

We were warned. It's only going to get worse between now and the 20th. Pence needs to invoke the 25th Amendment NOW.

Stacyhs · 6th January 2021, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by xjx388

If one suffers from delusions, they are mentally ill. She very directly stated that they are delusional in that they creating their desired reality.

In any case, Dr. Lee has nothing to do with my opinion as a layperson. If someone tells me that Trump won and there was massive fraud, despite the fact that there is no evidence of such, I think they are crazy.

All those protestors in DC right now are crazy.

You continue to be intellectually dishonest because you refuse to address the point that it is one delusion, the "rigged election, not delusionS, that Lee is referring to. If you cannot honestly discuss this, then there is no point in continuing.

xjx388 · 6th January 2021, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

You continue to be intellectually dishonest because you refuse to address the point that it is one delusion, the "rigged election, not delusionS, that Lee is referring to. If you cannot honestly discuss this, then there is no point in continuing.

I am honestly discussing this. I disagree with your assessment of Dr. Lee's words. Throughout the years she has been publicly commenting on Trump and his supposed mental illness, she has always talked about his followers and their delusions.

She has directly said that his mental illness is contagious and infecting his followers:

Quote:

Severe psychopathology in an influential figure, therefore, transmits to others or a group, until the exposed persons or groups come to feel, think, and behave as if they had the same disorder as the primary person. Unlike normal social dynamics, where enthusiasm, common purpose, or even outrage can be "infectious" but individuals retain their uniqueness, the spread of pathology is especially efficient and deleterious, taking over the personalities of those involved.

She has directly stated that his followers are experiencing "shared psychosis:"

Quote:

I have stated on a number of occasions that mental symptoms can be more persuasive than rational strategy because of their emotional drive. They can recruit you into an alternative system of thinking that defies rationality.

Donald Trump’s former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, and his former attorney have already suggested that he step outside the Constitution to force some sort of military-supervised re-vote. In addition to their corruption, opportunism, and criminal disposition, a powerful emotional drive underlies this alignment. This is an example of what is called “shared psychosis,” or “folie à plusieurs” (madness in several), which is a well-documented phenomenon whose power not be underestimated.

Its impact and danger are huge, as it divides the whole nation into those who are living in reality and those who are not . . .

Such talk of "shared psychosis," and the mental health of his followers -I must point out: millions of people she has never met- goes back to the book she helped edit: The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump.

So yeah, she very clearly thinks his followers are mentally ill, contaminated by and sharing his mental illness.

If you interpret things differently, that's fine; but, please leave the BS "intellectual dishonesty," out of the disccusion.

Stacyhs · 6th January 2021, 03:10 PM

What is it with you? Is it that you simply have to have the last word? Or that you just can't admit you're wrong so you just keep giving more and more absurd 'reasons' you're right?

I'll say it one more time and that will be the very last time. You can then come back with whatever absurd 'reason' you think it's a rational thing to claim and have the last word you seem to need:

Lee is saying that Trump and his followers may be delusional about that one particular belief but she is most certainly not saying that they cannot distinguish a fantasy world from the real world to the point that they are insane. Lee is not saying, as you claimed, that Trump supporters are insane.

Done. Have the last word. Buh bye. Adios. Adieu. Auf Wiedersehen. Sayonara.

dudalb · 6th January 2021, 03:18 PM

After today's event, Trump is either a madman or a traitor.

Resume · 6th January 2021, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

After today's event, Trump is either a madman or a traitor.

He's a crazy, narcissistic mother ****** with fascistic tendencies and zero filter.

Sorry, the jury is in and he's ******* nuts.

TragicMonkey · 6th January 2021, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

After today's event, Trump is either a madman or a traitor.

Let's be generous and admit he can be both.

Stacyhs · 6th January 2021, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

After today's event, Trump is either a madman or a traitor.

Trump is a sociopath and a pathological narcissist, no doubt about it. So we know he's mentally ill. I don't think anyone with that diagnosis is capable of being loyal to anyone or anything except himself, certainly not to a country. He'd betray his own children if it benefited him. He probably has. We know he betrayed his wives. If you haven't read Michael Cohen's Disloyal, or Mary Trump's book, do. They explain a lot about him.

dudalb · 6th January 2021, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Let's be generous and admit he can be both.

You got me there.

xjx388 · 6th January 2021, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

What is it with you? Is it that you simply have to have the last word? Or that you just can't admit you're wrong so you just keep giving more and more absurd 'reasons' you're right?

ETA: No. It's that you accused me of intellectual dishonesty so I wanted to make clear that I was engaging honestly and illustrate why I interpret her that way.

Quote:

I'll say it one more time and that will be the very last time.

Like it was the last few times you psuedo-flounced?

Quote:

You can then come back with whatever absurd 'reason' you think it's a rational thing to claim and have the last word you seem to need:

Lee is saying that Trump and his followers may be delusional about that one particular belief but she is most certainly not saying that they cannot distinguish a fantasy world from the real world to the point that they are insane. Lee is not saying, as you claimed, that Trump supporters are insane.

Done. Have the last word. Buh bye. Adios. Adieu. Auf Wiedersehen. Sayonara.

I really don't see how you can read the words Dr. Lee has said and get the idea that she's talking about a delusion of one particular belief. She is quite clearly saying that they are sharing in Trump's illness. They are, thus, mentally ill themselves. Insane is not really a clinical word; that's a word I used as a layperson.

But hey, if the actual words that came out of her mouth/pen/keyboard are not enough to convince you, Amen and a-woman. Kwaheri, 再见, अलविदा, donadagohvi, הֱיה שלום, Прощай . . . at least until the next time.

Minoosh · 6th January 2021, 04:06 PM

Mass hysteria is a thing, as far as I know. Or rather mass psychogenic illness

(Wiki)

I am not trying to parse what Dr. Lee said but I think this is probably more likely than tens of millions of people coming down with NPD.

ETA: And I'm probably not using the term correctly, because it is spoken of as being different than other collective delusions in that there are physical symptoms.

Stacyhs · 6th January 2021, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Mass hysteria is a thing, as far as I know. Or rather mass psychogenic illness

(Wiki)

I am not trying to parse what Dr. Lee said but I think this is probably more likely than tens of millions of people coming down with NPD.

ETA: And I'm probably not using the term correctly, because it is spoken of as being different than other collective delusions in that there are physical symptoms.

That's not what she said, either.

xjx388 · 6th January 2021, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Mass hysteria is a thing, as far as I know. Or rather mass psychogenic illness

(Wiki)

I am not trying to parse what Dr. Lee said but I think this is probably more likely than tens of millions of people coming down with NPD.

ETA: And I'm probably not using the term correctly, because it is spoken of as being different than other collective delusions in that there are physical symptoms.

Right, what Dr. Lee is saying is that trumps mental illness Is being shared by his followers. It’s not mass hysteria, it’s what she calls shared psychosis. Now shared psychotic disorder is some thing recognized in psychiatry and psychology but only among small groups of people, usually a family. Dr. Lee is expanding that to the millions of Trump followers who believe him. This is not something described in the literature, at least as far as I can see.

I don’t buy it, but that’s what she is saying.

What I think happened is that Trump is just a guy who got elected President because he happens to espouse a point of view that millions of people in America have. To be sure, it’s a warped point of view based on ignorance, racism and a radical view of conservatism -what has come to be known as the alt-right- that has been around for decades in America. His followers aren’t sharing psychosis with him, they were already convinced of the things he was saying. In fact, I’d say it’s the other way around. Trump is an opportunist and he figured out how to get himself into power by seizing upon this undercurrent of alt-right conservative thought. His voice and position gave their views power. It’s a symbiotic relationship.

In short, it’s a political problem, not a psychiatric one. It woke us up to the fact that a sizable portion of our society actually believes the things he represents. What makes Trump truly dangerous isn’t any mental illness, it’s the fact that so many people in America think like he (ostensibly) thinks.

Athyrio · 6th January 2021, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

We were warned. It's only going to get worse between now and the 20th. Pence needs to invoke the 25th Amendment NOW.

Jay Timmons, head of the National Association of Manufacturers, is calling for Pence to invoke the 25th after today’s violence. Timmons was once executive director of the National Republican Senatorial Committee. He had some harsh things to say about Trump’s supporters, not the bozos that trashed the Capitol, but the elected ones.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/06/nati...-sedition.html

Skeptic Ginger · 6th January 2021, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

He's a crazy, narcissistic mother ****** with fascistic tendencies and zero filter.

Sorry, the jury is in and he's ******* nuts.

xjx388 · 6th January 2021, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

He's a crazy, narcissistic mother ****** with fascistic tendencies and zero filter.

Sorry, the jury is in and he's ******* nuts.

As a layperson, I concur. I suspect we didn’t need any professionals to weigh in to understand that.

Stacyhs · 6th January 2021, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

He's a crazy, narcissistic mother ****** with fascistic tendencies and zero filter.

Sorry, the jury is in and he's ******* nuts.

No one's arguing with that.

Stacyhs · 7th January 2021, 12:24 AM

Katie Couric talks to Mary Trump about today's events.

https://youtu.be/_-xKMwZbEBg

jimbob · 7th January 2021, 03:53 AM

From the first part of the thread:

Originally Posted by jimbob

Originally Posted by Venom

This scenario gave me nightmares the other night:

Let's just say a leader of any nuclear power .....feels cornered or has untreated depression. He orders a nuclear strike, his people comply, then he bolts for the doors and jumps off a cliff, or perhaps shoots himself.

The ultimate act of extreme spite and rage.

It's not as though the concept of murder-suicide and spree killing suicide by cop is unknown.

David Koresh springs to mind as someone who a police psychological profiler identified with a form of narcissism that would be amenable to going out in a blaze of glory,which was not what the non-psychologists had considered.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post12158645

Yesterday looks as though this isn't too far off.

Stacyhs · 7th January 2021, 06:51 PM

Back to the issue of fear motivating Trump, the latest video he just made is a good example. If anyone thinks there is an ounce of sincerity in it, they are gullible fools. It contradicts everything he said yesterday. He made it because he fears the 25th Amendment will be invoked or the House will bring charges of impeachment against him if he did not.

Bob001 · 8th January 2021, 03:08 PM

Surely this is more evidence (as if we need it) of real pathology:

Quote:

How did President Donald Trump react to the chaotic scene in which his supporters stormed the Capitol as Congress was preparing to formally approve President-elect Joe Biden’s win — a scene that eventually left five people dead?

One Republican senator who says he’s been in touch with senior White House aides about the matter claims the president was “delighted."

https://www.vox.com/2021/1/8/2222084...ng-impeachment

Bob001 · 8th January 2021, 03:11 PM

Doc Gartner weighs in again:

Quote:

When I was making predictions that, like Hitler, Trump would engage in a scorched-earth strategy there were people who thought I was being extreme. But at this point it is just a fact. It is happening right now. There is no controversy about it. What we once predicted seemed extreme to many people at the time, but now I hope everybody understands that Trump is a saboteur and that he is trying to destroy our way of life and our democracy.

https://www.salon.com/2021/01/08/dr-...is-force-felt/

Stacyhs · 8th January 2021, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Surely this is more evidence (as if we need it) of real pathology:

https://www.vox.com/2021/1/8/2222084...ng-impeachment

Of course he was. He said so in his first, and only truthful, video, telling them "We love you, you're very special."

Segnosaur · 8th January 2021, 09:00 PM

Haven't been following this thread, but this seems like it might be relevant...

From: The American Psychoanalytic Association
The American Psychoanalytic Association, a leading mental health organization, is calling for the immediate removal of President Donald Trump from office, either by resignation, impeachment or invoking the 25th Amendment to the Constitution....We have long believed that Trump is a dangerous leader, as evidenced by his encouraging right-wing extremists in Charlottesville, Portland, and Kenosha, and his behavior this week makes this apparent to all. The combination of his publicly evident psychopathology and the power of the office he holds constitutes a clear and present danger to the health and well-being of the nation and its people.

Stacyhs · 9th January 2021, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Haven't been following this thread, but this seems like it might be relevant...

From: The American Psychoanalytic Association
The American Psychoanalytic Association, a leading mental health organization, is calling for the immediate removal of President Donald Trump from office, either by resignation, impeachment or invoking the 25th Amendment to the Constitution....We have long believed that Trump is a dangerous leader, as evidenced by his encouraging right-wing extremists in Charlottesville, Portland, and Kenosha, and his behavior this week makes this apparent to all. The combination of his publicly evident psychopathology and the power of the office he holds constitutes a clear and present danger to the health and well-being of the nation and its people.

No ****.

5th January 2021, 08:27 PM	#1482
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I understand that your opinion is unpopular because it's wrong. Wrong opinions can be very popular when they appeal to the general public (in whom I have little faith).
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

5th January 2021, 08:42 PM	#1484
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Remember that Trump's lawyers have argued that while he's in office, not only can he not be indicted, he cannot even be investigated for crimes. Oh, yes,...he is scared ****less of being out of office. Trump is distracted enough not to think about life after the Presidency. When he does have to think about it he'll find it's a complete unknown - and nothing is more terrifying than the complete unknown.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

5th January 2021, 08:48 PM	#1485
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by Stacyhs True, but in this case it's both unpopular and wrong. Also onanistic. A peculiar triad, but there it is.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

5th January 2021, 10:03 PM	#1487
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger What he does on Thursday, OTOH, is a complete mystery. Trump will rail against Pence for letting him down. The emergent properties of the Trumptrash crowd gathering in DC for tomorrow's crescendo are a complete mystery.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

6th January 2021, 08:48 AM	#1489
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	Originally Posted by Stacyhs C'mon man. You think that is a sane counter argument? So we have millions of insane people in this country? THAT is insane. Once again, rather than admit your position is wrong, you just keep digging in deeper and deeper. I hereby award you the Golden Shovel Award: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5285bc10a0.jpg My position is correct; that you disagree is noted, but it’s not the be all end all of the argument. Nor is the fact that my position is unpopular. But yes, as a layperson, if one believes that Trump rightfully won the election, then i believe they are insane. Not certifiably, not clinically; but, certainly in my estimation.
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	__________________ Hello.

5th January 2021, 08:26 PM	#1481
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,004	Remember that Trump's lawyers have argued that while he's in office, not only can he not be indicted, he cannot even be investigated for crimes. Oh, yes,...he is scared ****less of being out of office.

5th January 2021, 08:30 PM	#1483
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,004	Originally Posted by CapelDodger Wrong opinions can be very popular when they appeal to the general public (in whom I have little faith). True, but in this case it's both unpopular and wrong.

5th January 2021, 09:10 PM	#1486
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,887	Originally Posted by CapelDodger Trump is distracted enough not to think about life after the Presidency. When he does have to think about it he'll find it's a complete unknown - and nothing is more terrifying than the complete unknown. I think this is true for the most part. As long as he's convinced himself he still has a chance the election will be overthrown I imagine he puts the consequences of losing out of his mind as much as he can. Between rage and being convinced he really can overturn the election, there're plenty of things to occupy his emotional brain. What he does on Thursday, OTOH, is a complete mystery.

5th January 2021, 11:32 PM	#1488
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,004	Originally Posted by CapelDodger Trump is distracted enough not to think about life after the Presidency. When he does have to think about it he'll find it's a complete unknown - and nothing is more terrifying than the complete unknown. Aren't you contradicting your first sentence with your second sentence? But Trump is terrified of life after the presidency which is exactly what this latest discussion has been been about: fear of losing the protection the presidency has afforded him. Despite what xjx388 has claimed, NPD does not exclude fear being a motivating factor in his behavior. He has presented no evidence for this claim. On the other hand, I've produced two articles by psychologists stating that those with NPD do have fear motivated behaviors.

6th January 2021, 08:55 AM	#1490
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Aren't you contradicting your first sentence with your second sentence? But Trump is terrified of life after the presidency which is exactly what this latest discussion has been been about: fear of losing the protection the presidency has afforded him. Despite what xjx388 has claimed, NPD does not exclude fear being a motivating factor in his behavior. He has presented no evidence for this claim. On the other hand, I've produced two articles by psychologists stating that those with NPD do have fear motivated behaviors. xjx388 has never claimed that NPD excludes fear as a motivating factor. He has only claimed that NPD influences the content of that fear. In Trump’s case: fear of being a worthless failure. But Mary Trump already told us he fears prosecution -a totally rational fear which suggests he isn’t as crazy as others have made him out to be.
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	__________________ Hello.

6th January 2021, 10:30 AM	#1491
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Because after 4 years of Trump displaying his pathology in a setting he couldn't control like he could in his private life, Dr Lee et al have been proven right and Frances has been proven wrong. Conform or be cast out?
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	__________________ Hello.

6th January 2021, 10:32 AM	#1492
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,627	Originally Posted by xjx388 ... But Mary Trump already told us he fears prosecution -a totally rational fear which suggests he isn’t as crazy as others have made him out to be. What's your definition of "crazy?" Somebody can be severely disturbed with a warped view of reality and still recognize threats to his safety and well-being. The call with Raffenspurger by itself is plentiful evidence that Trump lives in the penthouse at Fantasyland.

6th January 2021, 11:43 AM	#1493
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,887	Originally Posted by xjx388 Conform or be cast out? Lessons from medicine and geology: The geologist who concluded that the evidence proved plate tectonics wasn't believed for about 10 years after the evidence was established. H-pylori as a cause of gastric ulcers and the cholera source being contaminated water took ~10 years before those discoveries were accepted by the medical communities. What these scientists had in common was the evidence clearly supported their positions. OTOH, Dr Michael Behe has been trying for a couple decades to make the evidence based case for 'intelligent design'. He ignored the fact his original hypothesis, that the bacterial flagella had no genetic precursor, was refuted when genomic analysis found the flagella precursor. From there he went on to claim mitochondria had no precursor... and on and on he went trying to prove that evolution wasn't consistent with abiogenesis. He continues to fail. Dr Frances is holding on to his initial assessment that because Trump's ND didn't cause him pain, it wasn't a mental illness. The evidence is, beyond question, clear that Trump is suffering tremendously. Like Dr Behe, Dr Frances may go to the grave still holding onto the position Trump is not mentally ill. This is despite the fact it would exclude anyone successful in business being mentally ill. Obviously there is serious folly in that position. The evidence doesn't support Dr Frances. No amount of refusing to acknowledge Trump's mental illness is going to be accepted now or in the future. The difference here is that the valid logical argument is evidence based. The competing argument you just made appears to be dismissing the facts as no more than an argumentum ad populum. And that is fallacious.

6th January 2021, 12:01 PM	#1494
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,004	Quote: Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post C'mon man. You think that is a sane counter argument? So we have millions of insane people in this country? THAT is insane. Once again, rather than admit your position is wrong, you just keep digging in deeper and deeper. I hereby award you the Golden Shovel Award: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5285bc10a0.jpg Originally Posted by xjx388 My position is correct; that you disagree is noted, but it’s not the be all end all of the argument. Nor is the fact that my position is unpopular. But yes, as a layperson, if one believes that Trump rightfully won the election, then i believe they are insane. Not certifiably, not clinically; but, certainly in my estimation. You flagrantly skirt the issue. It is not if YOU think that if one believes if Trump rightfully won the election then one is insane. What you said is that Dr. Lee claimed that if on believes Trump rightfully won the election...almost half the Republicans and others in the country...are insane. Quote: Originally Posted by xjx388 ??? I don’t see how you can get that out of the article, especially the part I quoted. She very clearly said: 1)Delusions = fantasy world 2) We can infer something about Trump by looking at his followers, 3)His followers are delusional and therefore: we can infer Trump is delusional. She very directly says Trump and his followers are insane. How did you not get that from her words? “Pathological narcissism,” and “delusional?” Time out. And I repeat: Lee is saying that Trump and his followers may be delusional about that one particular belief but she is most certainly not saying that they cannot distinguish a fantasy world from the real world to the point that they are insane. Once again, you would rather take a stand to a ridiculous extreme than back down. ETA: In my opinion, most Trump supporters aren't truly delusional about the election. They deep down know the election wasn't really rigged. They choose to believe it because it fits their emotional, political, and social needs. They want to believe it.
	Last edited by Stacyhs; 6th January 2021 at 12:19 PM.

6th January 2021, 12:27 PM	#1495
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	Originally Posted by Stacyhs You flagrantly skirt the issue. It is not if YOU think that if one believes if Trump rightfully won the election then one is insane. What you said is that Dr. Lee claimed that if on believes Trump rightfully won the election...almost half the Republicans and others in the country...are insane. And I repeat: Lee is saying that Trump and his followers may be delusional about that one particular belief but she is most certainly not saying that they cannot distinguish a fantasy world from the real world to the point that they are insane. Once again, you would rather take a stand to a ridiculous extreme than back down. If one suffers from delusions, they are mentally ill. She very directly stated that they are delusional in that they creating their desired reality. In any case, Dr. Lee has nothing to do with my opinion as a layperson. If someone tells me that Trump won and there was massive fraud, despite the fact that there is no evidence of such, I think they are crazy. All those protestors in DC right now are crazy.
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	__________________ Hello.

6th January 2021, 01:26 PM	#1496
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,004	We were warned. It's only going to get worse between now and the 20th. Pence needs to invoke the 25th Amendment NOW.

6th January 2021, 01:31 PM	#1497
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,004	Originally Posted by xjx388 If one suffers from delusions, they are mentally ill. She very directly stated that they are delusional in that they creating their desired reality. In any case, Dr. Lee has nothing to do with my opinion as a layperson. If someone tells me that Trump won and there was massive fraud, despite the fact that there is no evidence of such, I think they are crazy. All those protestors in DC right now are crazy. You continue to be intellectually dishonest because you refuse to address the point that it is one delusion, the "rigged election, not delusionS, that Lee is referring to. If you cannot honestly discuss this, then there is no point in continuing.

6th January 2021, 02:41 PM	#1498
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	Originally Posted by Stacyhs You continue to be intellectually dishonest because you refuse to address the point that it is one delusion, the "rigged election, not delusionS, that Lee is referring to. If you cannot honestly discuss this, then there is no point in continuing. I am honestly discussing this. I disagree with your assessment of Dr. Lee's words. Throughout the years she has been publicly commenting on Trump and his supposed mental illness, she has always talked about his followers and their delusions. She has directly said that his mental illness is contagious and infecting his followers: Quote: Severe psychopathology in an influential figure, therefore, transmits to others or a group, until the exposed persons or groups come to feel, think, and behave as if they had the same disorder as the primary person. Unlike normal social dynamics, where enthusiasm, common purpose, or even outrage can be "infectious" but individuals retain their uniqueness, the spread of pathology is especially efficient and deleterious, taking over the personalities of those involved. She has directly stated that his followers are experiencing "shared psychosis:" Quote: I have stated on a number of occasions that mental symptoms can be more persuasive than rational strategy because of their emotional drive. They can recruit you into an alternative system of thinking that defies rationality. Donald Trump’s former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, and his former attorney have already suggested that he step outside the Constitution to force some sort of military-supervised re-vote. In addition to their corruption, opportunism, and criminal disposition, a powerful emotional drive underlies this alignment. This is an example of what is called “shared psychosis,” or “folie à plusieurs” (madness in several), which is a well-documented phenomenon whose power not be underestimated. Its impact and danger are huge, as it divides the whole nation into those who are living in reality and those who are not . . . Such talk of "shared psychosis," and the mental health of his followers -I must point out: millions of people she has never met- goes back to the book she helped edit: The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump. So yeah, she very clearly thinks his followers are mentally ill, contaminated by and sharing his mental illness. If you interpret things differently, that's fine; but, please leave the BS "intellectual dishonesty," out of the disccusion.
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	__________________ Hello.

6th January 2021, 03:10 PM	#1499
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,004	What is it with you? Is it that you simply have to have the last word? Or that you just can't admit you're wrong so you just keep giving more and more absurd 'reasons' you're right? I'll say it one more time and that will be the very last time. You can then come back with whatever absurd 'reason' you think it's a rational thing to claim and have the last word you seem to need: Lee is saying that Trump and his followers may be delusional about that one particular belief but she is most certainly not saying that they cannot distinguish a fantasy world from the real world to the point that they are insane. Lee is not saying, as you claimed, that Trump supporters are insane. Done. Have the last word. Buh bye. Adios. Adieu. Auf Wiedersehen. Sayonara.

6th January 2021, 03:18 PM	#1500
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	After today's event, Trump is either a madman or a traitor.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

6th January 2021, 03:22 PM	#1501
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,836	Originally Posted by dudalb After today's event, Trump is either a madman or a traitor. He's a crazy, narcissistic mother **** with fascistic tendencies and zero filter. Sorry, the jury is in and he's ***** nuts.

6th January 2021, 03:27 PM	#1502
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,464	Originally Posted by dudalb After today's event, Trump is either a madman or a traitor. Let's be generous and admit he can be both.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

6th January 2021, 03:28 PM	#1503
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,004	Originally Posted by dudalb After today's event, Trump is either a madman or a traitor. Trump is a sociopath and a pathological narcissist, no doubt about it. So we know he's mentally ill. I don't think anyone with that diagnosis is capable of being loyal to anyone or anything except himself, certainly not to a country. He'd betray his own children if it benefited him. He probably has. We know he betrayed his wives. If you haven't read Michael Cohen's Disloyal, or Mary Trump's book, do. They explain a lot about him.

6th January 2021, 03:31 PM	#1504
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Let's be generous and admit he can be both. You got me there.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

6th January 2021, 03:59 PM	#1505
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	Originally Posted by Stacyhs What is it with you? Is it that you simply have to have the last word? Or that you just can't admit you're wrong so you just keep giving more and more absurd 'reasons' you're right? ETA: No. It's that you accused me of intellectual dishonesty so I wanted to make clear that I was engaging honestly and illustrate why I interpret her that way. Quote: I'll say it one more time and that will be the very last time. Like it was the last few times you psuedo-flounced? Quote: You can then come back with whatever absurd 'reason' you think it's a rational thing to claim and have the last word you seem to need: Lee is saying that Trump and his followers may be delusional about that one particular belief but she is most certainly not saying that they cannot distinguish a fantasy world from the real world to the point that they are insane. Lee is not saying, as you claimed, that Trump supporters are insane. Done. Have the last word. Buh bye. Adios. Adieu. Auf Wiedersehen. Sayonara. I really don't see how you can read the words Dr. Lee has said and get the idea that she's talking about a delusion of one particular belief. She is quite clearly saying that they are sharing in Trump's illness. They are, thus, mentally ill themselves. Insane is not really a clinical word; that's a word I used as a layperson. But hey, if the actual words that came out of her mouth/pen/keyboard are not enough to convince you, Amen and a-woman. Kwaheri, 再见, अलविदा, donadagohvi, הֱיה שלום, Прощай . . . at least until the next time.
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	__________________ Hello. Last edited by xjx388; 6th January 2021 at 04:05 PM.

6th January 2021, 04:06 PM	#1506
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,238	Mass hysteria is a thing, as far as I know. Or rather mass psychogenic illness (Wiki) I am not trying to parse what Dr. Lee said but I think this is probably more likely than tens of millions of people coming down with NPD. ETA: And I'm probably not using the term correctly, because it is spoken of as being different than other collective delusions in that there are physical symptoms.
	Last edited by Minoosh; 6th January 2021 at 04:09 PM.

6th January 2021, 04:20 PM	#1507
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,004	Originally Posted by Minoosh Mass hysteria is a thing, as far as I know. Or rather mass psychogenic illness (Wiki) I am not trying to parse what Dr. Lee said but I think this is probably more likely than tens of millions of people coming down with NPD. ETA: And I'm probably not using the term correctly, because it is spoken of as being different than other collective delusions in that there are physical symptoms. That's not what she said, either.

6th January 2021, 05:07 PM	#1508
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	Originally Posted by Minoosh Mass hysteria is a thing, as far as I know. Or rather mass psychogenic illness (Wiki) I am not trying to parse what Dr. Lee said but I think this is probably more likely than tens of millions of people coming down with NPD. ETA: And I'm probably not using the term correctly, because it is spoken of as being different than other collective delusions in that there are physical symptoms. Right, what Dr. Lee is saying is that trumps mental illness Is being shared by his followers. It’s not mass hysteria, it’s what she calls shared psychosis. Now shared psychotic disorder is some thing recognized in psychiatry and psychology but only among small groups of people, usually a family. Dr. Lee is expanding that to the millions of Trump followers who believe him. This is not something described in the literature, at least as far as I can see. I don’t buy it, but that’s what she is saying. What I think happened is that Trump is just a guy who got elected President because he happens to espouse a point of view that millions of people in America have. To be sure, it’s a warped point of view based on ignorance, racism and a radical view of conservatism -what has come to be known as the alt-right- that has been around for decades in America. His followers aren’t sharing psychosis with him, they were already convinced of the things he was saying. In fact, I’d say it’s the other way around. Trump is an opportunist and he figured out how to get himself into power by seizing upon this undercurrent of alt-right conservative thought. His voice and position gave their views power. It’s a symbiotic relationship. In short, it’s a political problem, not a psychiatric one. It woke us up to the fact that a sizable portion of our society actually believes the things he represents. What makes Trump truly dangerous isn’t any mental illness, it’s the fact that so many people in America think like he (ostensibly) thinks.
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	__________________ Hello.

6th January 2021, 05:15 PM	#1509
Athyrio Hipster Doofus Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Nutsack, FL Posts: 2,171	Originally Posted by Stacyhs We were warned. It's only going to get worse between now and the 20th. Pence needs to invoke the 25th Amendment NOW. Jay Timmons, head of the National Association of Manufacturers, is calling for Pence to invoke the 25th after today’s violence. Timmons was once executive director of the National Republican Senatorial Committee. He had some harsh things to say about Trump’s supporters, not the bozos that trashed the Capitol, but the elected ones. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/06/nati...-sedition.html
	__________________ Knowledge is good.... Emil Faber

6th January 2021, 09:15 PM	#1510
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,887	Originally Posted by Resume He's a crazy, narcissistic mother **** with fascistic tendencies and zero filter. Sorry, the jury is in and he's ***** nuts.

6th January 2021, 11:14 PM	#1511
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	Originally Posted by Resume He's a crazy, narcissistic mother **** with fascistic tendencies and zero filter. Sorry, the jury is in and he's ***** nuts. As a layperson, I concur. I suspect we didn’t need any professionals to weigh in to understand that.
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,142	__________________ Hello.

6th January 2021, 11:28 PM	#1512
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,004	Originally Posted by Resume He's a crazy, narcissistic mother **** with fascistic tendencies and zero filter. Sorry, the jury is in and he's ***** nuts. No one's arguing with that.

7th January 2021, 12:24 AM	#1513
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,004	Katie Couric talks to Mary Trump about today's events. https://youtu.be/_-xKMwZbEBg

7th January 2021, 03:53 AM	#1514
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,794	From the first part of the thread: Originally Posted by jimbob Originally Posted by Venom This scenario gave me nightmares the other night: Let's just say a leader of any nuclear power .....feels cornered or has untreated depression. He orders a nuclear strike, his people comply, then he bolts for the doors and jumps off a cliff, or perhaps shoots himself. The ultimate act of extreme spite and rage. It's not as though the concept of murder-suicide and spree killing suicide by cop is unknown. David Koresh springs to mind as someone who a police psychological profiler identified with a form of narcissism that would be amenable to going out in a blaze of glory,which was not what the non-psychologists had considered. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post12158645 Yesterday looks as though this isn't too far off.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

7th January 2021, 06:51 PM	#1515
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,004	Back to the issue of fear motivating Trump, the latest video he just made is a good example. If anyone thinks there is an ounce of sincerity in it, they are gullible fools. It contradicts everything he said yesterday. He made it because he fears the 25th Amendment will be invoked or the House will bring charges of impeachment against him if he did not.