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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 5th January 2021, 08:26 PM   #1481
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Remember that Trump's lawyers have argued that while he's in office, not only can he not be indicted, he cannot even be investigated for crimes. Oh, yes,...he is scared ****less of being out of office.
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Old 5th January 2021, 08:27 PM   #1482
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I understand that your opinion is unpopular because it's wrong.
Wrong opinions can be very popular when they appeal to the general public (in whom I have little faith).
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Old 5th January 2021, 08:30 PM   #1483
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Wrong opinions can be very popular when they appeal to the general public (in whom I have little faith).
True, but in this case it's both unpopular and wrong.
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Old 5th January 2021, 08:42 PM   #1484
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Remember that Trump's lawyers have argued that while he's in office, not only can he not be indicted, he cannot even be investigated for crimes. Oh, yes,...he is scared ****less of being out of office.
Trump is distracted enough not to think about life after the Presidency. When he does have to think about it he'll find it's a complete unknown - and nothing is more terrifying than the complete unknown.
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Old 5th January 2021, 08:48 PM   #1485
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
True, but in this case it's both unpopular and wrong.
Also onanistic. A peculiar triad, but there it is.
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Old 5th January 2021, 09:10 PM   #1486
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Trump is distracted enough not to think about life after the Presidency. When he does have to think about it he'll find it's a complete unknown - and nothing is more terrifying than the complete unknown.
I think this is true for the most part.

As long as he's convinced himself he still has a chance the election will be overthrown I imagine he puts the consequences of losing out of his mind as much as he can.

Between rage and being convinced he really can overturn the election, there're plenty of things to occupy his emotional brain.

What he does on Thursday, OTOH, is a complete mystery.
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Old 5th January 2021, 10:03 PM   #1487
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What he does on Thursday, OTOH, is a complete mystery.
Trump will rail against Pence for letting him down. The emergent properties of the Trumptrash crowd gathering in DC for tomorrow's crescendo are a complete mystery.
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Old 5th January 2021, 11:32 PM   #1488
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Trump is distracted enough not to think about life after the Presidency. When he does have to think about it he'll find it's a complete unknown - and nothing is more terrifying than the complete unknown.
Aren't you contradicting your first sentence with your second sentence? But Trump is terrified of life after the presidency which is exactly what this latest discussion has been been about: fear of losing the protection the presidency has afforded him. Despite what xjx388 has claimed, NPD does not exclude fear being a motivating factor in his behavior. He has presented no evidence for this claim. On the other hand, I've produced two articles by psychologists stating that those with NPD do have fear motivated behaviors.
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Old 6th January 2021, 08:48 AM   #1489
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
C'mon man. You think that is a sane counter argument? So we have millions of insane people in this country? THAT is insane. Once again, rather than admit your position is wrong, you just keep digging in deeper and deeper. I hereby award you the Golden Shovel Award:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5285bc10a0.jpg

My position is correct; that you disagree is noted, but itís not the be all end all of the argument. Nor is the fact that my position is unpopular.

But yes, as a layperson, if one believes that Trump rightfully won the election, then i believe they are insane. Not certifiably, not clinically; but, certainly in my estimation.
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Old 6th January 2021, 08:55 AM   #1490
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Aren't you contradicting your first sentence with your second sentence? But Trump is terrified of life after the presidency which is exactly what this latest discussion has been been about: fear of losing the protection the presidency has afforded him. Despite what xjx388 has claimed, NPD does not exclude fear being a motivating factor in his behavior. He has presented no evidence for this claim. On the other hand, I've produced two articles by psychologists stating that those with NPD do have fear motivated behaviors.

xjx388 has never claimed that NPD excludes fear as a motivating factor. He has only claimed that NPD influences the content of that fear. In Trumpís case: fear of being a worthless failure.

But Mary Trump already told us he fears prosecution -a totally rational fear which suggests he isnít as crazy as others have made him out to be.
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:30 AM   #1491
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Because after 4 years of Trump displaying his pathology in a setting he couldn't control like he could in his private life, Dr Lee et al have been proven right and Frances has been proven wrong.
Conform or be cast out?
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Old 6th January 2021, 10:32 AM   #1492
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
...
But Mary Trump already told us he fears prosecution -a totally rational fear which suggests he isnít as crazy as others have made him out to be.
What's your definition of "crazy?" Somebody can be severely disturbed with a warped view of reality and still recognize threats to his safety and well-being. The call with Raffenspurger by itself is plentiful evidence that Trump lives in the penthouse at Fantasyland.
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:43 AM   #1493
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Conform or be cast out?
Lessons from medicine and geology:

The geologist who concluded that the evidence proved plate tectonics wasn't believed for about 10 years after the evidence was established.

H-pylori as a cause of gastric ulcers and the cholera source being contaminated water took ~10 years before those discoveries were accepted by the medical communities.

What these scientists had in common was the evidence clearly supported their positions.

OTOH, Dr Michael Behe has been trying for a couple decades to make the evidence based case for 'intelligent design'. He ignored the fact his original hypothesis, that the bacterial flagella had no genetic precursor, was refuted when genomic analysis found the flagella precursor. From there he went on to claim mitochondria had no precursor... and on and on he went trying to prove that evolution wasn't consistent with abiogenesis. He continues to fail.

Dr Frances is holding on to his initial assessment that because Trump's ND didn't cause him pain, it wasn't a mental illness.

The evidence is, beyond question, clear that Trump is suffering tremendously. Like Dr Behe, Dr Frances may go to the grave still holding onto the position Trump is not mentally ill. This is despite the fact it would exclude anyone successful in business being mentally ill. Obviously there is serious folly in that position. The evidence doesn't support Dr Frances. No amount of refusing to acknowledge Trump's mental illness is going to be accepted now or in the future.

The difference here is that the valid logical argument is evidence based. The competing argument you just made appears to be dismissing the facts as no more than an argumentum ad populum. And that is fallacious.
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Old 6th January 2021, 12:01 PM   #1494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
C'mon man. You think that is a sane counter argument? So we have millions of insane people in this country? THAT is insane. Once again, rather than admit your position is wrong, you just keep digging in deeper and deeper. I hereby award you the Golden Shovel Award:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5285bc10a0.jpg
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
My position is correct; that you disagree is noted, but it’s not the be all end all of the argument. Nor is the fact that my position is unpopular.

But yes, as a layperson, if one believes that Trump rightfully won the election, then i believe they are insane. Not certifiably, not clinically; but, certainly in my estimation.
You flagrantly skirt the issue. It is not if YOU think that if one believes if Trump rightfully won the election then one is insane. What you said is that Dr. Lee claimed that if on believes Trump rightfully won the election...almost half the Republicans and others in the country...are insane.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xjx388
??? I don’t see how you can get that out of the article, especially the part I quoted. She very clearly said: 1)Delusions = fantasy world 2) We can infer something about Trump by looking at his followers, 3)His followers are delusional and therefore: we can infer Trump is delusional.

She very directly says Trump and his followers are insane. How did you not get that from her words? “Pathological narcissism,” and “delusional?”
Time out.
And I repeat: Lee is saying that Trump and his followers may be delusional about that one particular belief but she is most certainly not saying that they cannot distinguish a fantasy world from the real world to the point that they are insane.

Once again, you would rather take a stand to a ridiculous extreme than back down.

ETA: In my opinion, most Trump supporters aren't truly delusional about the election. They deep down know the election wasn't really rigged. They choose to believe it because it fits their emotional, political, and social needs. They want to believe it.

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Old 6th January 2021, 12:27 PM   #1495
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You flagrantly skirt the issue. It is not if YOU think that if one believes if Trump rightfully won the election then one is insane. What you said is that Dr. Lee claimed that if on believes Trump rightfully won the election...almost half the Republicans and others in the country...are insane.




And I repeat: Lee is saying that Trump and his followers may be delusional about that one particular belief but she is most certainly not saying that they cannot distinguish a fantasy world from the real world to the point that they are insane.

Once again, you would rather take a stand to a ridiculous extreme than back down.

If one suffers from delusions, they are mentally ill. She very directly stated that they are delusional in that they creating their desired reality.

In any case, Dr. Lee has nothing to do with my opinion as a layperson. If someone tells me that Trump won and there was massive fraud, despite the fact that there is no evidence of such, I think they are crazy.

All those protestors in DC right now are crazy.
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Old 6th January 2021, 01:26 PM   #1496
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We were warned. It's only going to get worse between now and the 20th. Pence needs to invoke the 25th Amendment NOW.
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Old 6th January 2021, 01:31 PM   #1497
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If one suffers from delusions, they are mentally ill. She very directly stated that they are delusional in that they creating their desired reality.

In any case, Dr. Lee has nothing to do with my opinion as a layperson. If someone tells me that Trump won and there was massive fraud, despite the fact that there is no evidence of such, I think they are crazy.

All those protestors in DC right now are crazy.
You continue to be intellectually dishonest because you refuse to address the point that it is one delusion, the "rigged election, not delusionS, that Lee is referring to. If you cannot honestly discuss this, then there is no point in continuing.
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Old 6th January 2021, 02:41 PM   #1498
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You continue to be intellectually dishonest because you refuse to address the point that it is one delusion, the "rigged election, not delusionS, that Lee is referring to. If you cannot honestly discuss this, then there is no point in continuing.
I am honestly discussing this. I disagree with your assessment of Dr. Lee's words. Throughout the years she has been publicly commenting on Trump and his supposed mental illness, she has always talked about his followers and their delusions.

She has directly said that his mental illness is contagious and infecting his followers:
Quote:
Severe psychopathology in an influential figure, therefore, transmits to others or a group, until the exposed persons or groups come to feel, think, and behave as if they had the same disorder as the primary person. Unlike normal social dynamics, where enthusiasm, common purpose, or even outrage can be "infectious" but individuals retain their uniqueness, the spread of pathology is especially efficient and deleterious, taking over the personalities of those involved.
She has directly stated that his followers are experiencing "shared psychosis:"
Quote:
I have stated on a number of occasions that mental symptoms can be more persuasive than rational strategy because of their emotional drive. They can recruit you into an alternative system of thinking that defies rationality.

Donald Trumpís former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, and his former attorney have already suggested that he step outside the Constitution to force some sort of military-supervised re-vote. In addition to their corruption, opportunism, and criminal disposition, a powerful emotional drive underlies this alignment. This is an example of what is called ďshared psychosis,Ē or ďfolie ŗ plusieursĒ (madness in several), which is a well-documented phenomenon whose power not be underestimated.

Its impact and danger are huge, as it divides the whole nation into those who are living in reality and those who are not . . .
Such talk of "shared psychosis," and the mental health of his followers -I must point out: millions of people she has never met- goes back to the book she helped edit: The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump.

So yeah, she very clearly thinks his followers are mentally ill, contaminated by and sharing his mental illness.

If you interpret things differently, that's fine; but, please leave the BS "intellectual dishonesty," out of the disccusion.
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Old 6th January 2021, 03:10 PM   #1499
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What is it with you? Is it that you simply have to have the last word? Or that you just can't admit you're wrong so you just keep giving more and more absurd 'reasons' you're right?

I'll say it one more time and that will be the very last time. You can then come back with whatever absurd 'reason' you think it's a rational thing to claim and have the last word you seem to need:

Lee is saying that Trump and his followers may be delusional about that one particular belief but she is most certainly not saying that they cannot distinguish a fantasy world from the real world to the point that they are insane. Lee is not saying, as you claimed, that Trump supporters are insane.

Done. Have the last word. Buh bye. Adios. Adieu. Auf Wiedersehen. Sayonara.
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Old 6th January 2021, 03:18 PM   #1500
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After today's event, Trump is either a madman or a traitor.
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Old 6th January 2021, 03:22 PM   #1501
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
After today's event, Trump is either a madman or a traitor.
He's a crazy, narcissistic mother ****** with fascistic tendencies and zero filter.

Sorry, the jury is in and he's ******* nuts.
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Old 6th January 2021, 03:27 PM   #1502
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
After today's event, Trump is either a madman or a traitor.
Let's be generous and admit he can be both.
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Old 6th January 2021, 03:28 PM   #1503
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
After today's event, Trump is either a madman or a traitor.
Trump is a sociopath and a pathological narcissist, no doubt about it. So we know he's mentally ill. I don't think anyone with that diagnosis is capable of being loyal to anyone or anything except himself, certainly not to a country. He'd betray his own children if it benefited him. He probably has. We know he betrayed his wives. If you haven't read Michael Cohen's Disloyal, or Mary Trump's book, do. They explain a lot about him.
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Old 6th January 2021, 03:31 PM   #1504
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Let's be generous and admit he can be both.
You got me there.
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Old 6th January 2021, 03:59 PM   #1505
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What is it with you? Is it that you simply have to have the last word? Or that you just can't admit you're wrong so you just keep giving more and more absurd 'reasons' you're right?
ETA: No. It's that you accused me of intellectual dishonesty so I wanted to make clear that I was engaging honestly and illustrate why I interpret her that way.

Quote:
I'll say it one more time and that will be the very last time.
Like it was the last few times you psuedo-flounced?
Quote:
You can then come back with whatever absurd 'reason' you think it's a rational thing to claim and have the last word you seem to need:

Lee is saying that Trump and his followers may be delusional about that one particular belief but she is most certainly not saying that they cannot distinguish a fantasy world from the real world to the point that they are insane. Lee is not saying, as you claimed, that Trump supporters are insane.

Done. Have the last word. Buh bye. Adios. Adieu. Auf Wiedersehen. Sayonara.
I really don't see how you can read the words Dr. Lee has said and get the idea that she's talking about a delusion of one particular belief. She is quite clearly saying that they are sharing in Trump's illness. They are, thus, mentally ill themselves. Insane is not really a clinical word; that's a word I used as a layperson.

But hey, if the actual words that came out of her mouth/pen/keyboard are not enough to convince you, Amen and a-woman. Kwaheri, 再见, अलविदा, donadagohvi, הֱיה שלום, Прощай . . . at least until the next time.
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Old 6th January 2021, 04:06 PM   #1506
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Mass hysteria is a thing, as far as I know. Or rather mass psychogenic illness

(Wiki)

I am not trying to parse what Dr. Lee said but I think this is probably more likely than tens of millions of people coming down with NPD.

ETA: And I'm probably not using the term correctly, because it is spoken of as being different than other collective delusions in that there are physical symptoms.

Last edited by Minoosh; 6th January 2021 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 6th January 2021, 04:20 PM   #1507
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Mass hysteria is a thing, as far as I know. Or rather mass psychogenic illness

(Wiki)

I am not trying to parse what Dr. Lee said but I think this is probably more likely than tens of millions of people coming down with NPD.

ETA: And I'm probably not using the term correctly, because it is spoken of as being different than other collective delusions in that there are physical symptoms.
That's not what she said, either.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:07 PM   #1508
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Mass hysteria is a thing, as far as I know. Or rather mass psychogenic illness

(Wiki)

I am not trying to parse what Dr. Lee said but I think this is probably more likely than tens of millions of people coming down with NPD.

ETA: And I'm probably not using the term correctly, because it is spoken of as being different than other collective delusions in that there are physical symptoms.

Right, what Dr. Lee is saying is that trumps mental illness Is being shared by his followers. Itís not mass hysteria, itís what she calls shared psychosis. Now shared psychotic disorder is some thing recognized in psychiatry and psychology but only among small groups of people, usually a family. Dr. Lee is expanding that to the millions of Trump followers who believe him. This is not something described in the literature, at least as far as I can see.

I donít buy it, but thatís what she is saying.

What I think happened is that Trump is just a guy who got elected President because he happens to espouse a point of view that millions of people in America have. To be sure, itís a warped point of view based on ignorance, racism and a radical view of conservatism -what has come to be known as the alt-right- that has been around for decades in America. His followers arenít sharing psychosis with him, they were already convinced of the things he was saying. In fact, Iíd say itís the other way around. Trump is an opportunist and he figured out how to get himself into power by seizing upon this undercurrent of alt-right conservative thought. His voice and position gave their views power. Itís a symbiotic relationship.

In short, itís a political problem, not a psychiatric one. It woke us up to the fact that a sizable portion of our society actually believes the things he represents. What makes Trump truly dangerous isnít any mental illness, itís the fact that so many people in America think like he (ostensibly) thinks.
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Old 6th January 2021, 05:15 PM   #1509
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We were warned. It's only going to get worse between now and the 20th. Pence needs to invoke the 25th Amendment NOW.

Jay Timmons, head of the National Association of Manufacturers, is calling for Pence to invoke the 25th after todayís violence. Timmons was once executive director of the National Republican Senatorial Committee. He had some harsh things to say about Trumpís supporters, not the bozos that trashed the Capitol, but the elected ones.


https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/06/nati...-sedition.html
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Old 6th January 2021, 09:15 PM   #1510
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
He's a crazy, narcissistic mother ****** with fascistic tendencies and zero filter.

Sorry, the jury is in and he's ******* nuts.
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:14 PM   #1511
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
He's a crazy, narcissistic mother ****** with fascistic tendencies and zero filter.

Sorry, the jury is in and he's ******* nuts.

As a layperson, I concur. I suspect we didnít need any professionals to weigh in to understand that.
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Old 6th January 2021, 11:28 PM   #1512
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
He's a crazy, narcissistic mother ****** with fascistic tendencies and zero filter.

Sorry, the jury is in and he's ******* nuts.
No one's arguing with that.
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Old 7th January 2021, 12:24 AM   #1513
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Katie Couric talks to Mary Trump about today's events.

https://youtu.be/_-xKMwZbEBg
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Old 7th January 2021, 03:53 AM   #1514
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From the first part of the thread:

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
This scenario gave me nightmares the other night:

Let's just say a leader of any nuclear power .....feels cornered or has untreated depression. He orders a nuclear strike, his people comply, then he bolts for the doors and jumps off a cliff, or perhaps shoots himself.

The ultimate act of extreme spite and rage.
It's not as though the concept of murder-suicide and spree killing suicide by cop is unknown.

David Koresh springs to mind as someone who a police psychological profiler identified with a form of narcissism that would be amenable to going out in a blaze of glory,which was not what the non-psychologists had considered.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post12158645

Yesterday looks as though this isn't too far off.
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Old 7th January 2021, 06:51 PM   #1515
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Back to the issue of fear motivating Trump, the latest video he just made is a good example. If anyone thinks there is an ounce of sincerity in it, they are gullible fools. It contradicts everything he said yesterday. He made it because he fears the 25th Amendment will be invoked or the House will bring charges of impeachment against him if he did not.
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Old 8th January 2021, 03:08 PM   #1516
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Surely this is more evidence (as if we need it) of real pathology:
Quote:
How did President Donald Trump react to the chaotic scene in which his supporters stormed the Capitol as Congress was preparing to formally approve President-elect Joe Bidenís win ó a scene that eventually left five people dead?

One Republican senator who says heís been in touch with senior White House aides about the matter claims the president was ďdelighted."
https://www.vox.com/2021/1/8/2222084...ng-impeachment
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Old 8th January 2021, 03:11 PM   #1517
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Doc Gartner weighs in again:
Quote:
When I was making predictions that, like Hitler, Trump would engage in a scorched-earth strategy there were people who thought I was being extreme. But at this point it is just a fact. It is happening right now. There is no controversy about it. What we once predicted seemed extreme to many people at the time, but now I hope everybody understands that Trump is a saboteur and that he is trying to destroy our way of life and our democracy.
https://www.salon.com/2021/01/08/dr-...is-force-felt/
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Old 8th January 2021, 03:13 PM   #1518
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Surely this is more evidence (as if we need it) of real pathology:

https://www.vox.com/2021/1/8/2222084...ng-impeachment
Of course he was. He said so in his first, and only truthful, video, telling them "We love you, you're very special."
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Old 8th January 2021, 09:00 PM   #1519
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Haven't been following this thread, but this seems like it might be relevant...

From: The American Psychoanalytic Association
The American Psychoanalytic Association, a leading mental health organization, is calling for the immediate removal of President Donald Trump from office, either by resignation, impeachment or invoking the 25th Amendment to the Constitution....We have long believed that Trump is a dangerous leader, as evidenced by his encouraging right-wing extremists in Charlottesville, Portland, and Kenosha, and his behavior this week makes this apparent to all. The combination of his publicly evident psychopathology and the power of the office he holds constitutes a clear and present danger to the health and well-being of the nation and its people.
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Old 9th January 2021, 12:58 AM   #1520
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Haven't been following this thread, but this seems like it might be relevant...

From: The American Psychoanalytic Association
The American Psychoanalytic Association, a leading mental health organization, is calling for the immediate removal of President Donald Trump from office, either by resignation, impeachment or invoking the 25th Amendment to the Constitution....We have long believed that Trump is a dangerous leader, as evidenced by his encouraging right-wing extremists in Charlottesville, Portland, and Kenosha, and his behavior this week makes this apparent to all. The combination of his publicly evident psychopathology and the power of the office he holds constitutes a clear and present danger to the health and well-being of the nation and its people.
No ****.
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