How far is this going to go?

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Brainster

Russiagate went on for years. Sore losers tend not to move on.

Well, except that “Russiagate” (thanks for establishing your Right Wing Bubble bonafides with a term that no one in touch with reality uses) was based on facts, evidence, and things that actually took place on this plane of existence.

Other than that, spot on analogy.

[Norman Alexander]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Thinking about it, I'll be surprised if some R states don't try claiming that since Biden isn't a legitimate President, new Federal laws or regulations don't apply to them. Especially if they are Executive Orders.

Okay. No vaccines for them. They can die by the thousands daily on their side of their wall. And that's just the start of their problems of isolation. Really, they need to look at Brexit, which is succession-lite, and how well that's going for the UK right about now. Real-world 2020-current example.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Brainster

Russiagate went on for years. Sore losers tend not to move on.

Russiagate as you call it resulted in charges and convictions. The evidence was overwhelming Russia interfered with the 2016 election.

There is no evidence of any massive fraud or misuse of mail-in ballots despite how hard the Trumpkins look.

Conflating the two shows just how blind you are to an evidence based reality.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Trump for certain will never accept defeat. He'll probably get someone to give him the oath of office on 20 January and go on claiming he's still President. A good many Republicans will agree with him, probably including some R dominated state legislatures. Secession? Not seeing it. That got pretty much settled 155 years ago.

Maybe they'll all move to FL and we can corral them there.

[Ladewig]

I kind of want a legislature to discuss it seriously.
Only because I want to see the response when the feds say, “OK, we’ve calculated the real estate value of the National Parks and military installations. We’d like X-billion dollars please. Oh, and no checks. Of course if you don’t want to pay, we can remodel one of army bases - we’ll call it New Guantanamo; we’ll start transferring prisoners in about five weeks.”

[dudalb]

Morons on parade in DC today.
Welcome to Darwin's waiting room for the no fully evolved.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

But, be fair. It never amounted to anything. It made a lot of headlines, and took up a lot of time and energy. It affected some careers, but it didn't bring down the president, and probably was even a win, politically, for the Republicans, although that's difficult to measure.

Apparently you need reminding, the investigation began when there was clear evidence Russia was seriously interfering with the election and Trump's campaign people were involved.

It was not an investigation to "bring Trump down." The evidence collected was valid. The interference was well documented.

Your and others' attempts to rewrite history will fail in the end.

[johnny karate]

How far is this going to go? To the point of violence and death, of course.

The GOP is a death cult that has now fully embraced its fascist leanings.

One only need look to places like South Dakota to watch them actively killing each other. There’s no reason to believe they won’t continue to use violence against their perceived enemies in their full-scale war against morality, decency, and reality.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I fear this time the Right Wing may decide **** has hit the fan and they will act. Small acts of terrorism, kidnappings, who the hell knows. And yes maybe even one state voting for secession or a state referendum on secession.

I pray I am wrong and just worrying to much.

There is no evidence we are there. Maybe there will be. But there isn't going to be a civil war because the people who would actually attempt to secede are mostly a batch of soldier wannabes who have no central command.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Apparently you need reminding, the investigation began when there was clear evidence Russia was seriously interfering with the election and Trump's campaign people were involved.

It was not an investigation to "bring Trump down." The evidence collected was valid. The interference was well documented.

Your and others' attempts to rewrite history will fail in the end.

Exactly correct.

The only ginned-up politically-motivated witch hunt in recent years were the 10 investigations into Benghazi.

You know, back when Republicans at least maintained the charade that they cared about dead Americans.

[slyjoe]

wrong thread

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Not treason. US law is very picky about that. Treason is aiding enemies in time of war, period.

Exactly what crime it would actually be, I don't know. I'm sure they'll think of something. "Attempting to overthrow the government" is a crime in the US, although I don't know the actual name of that crime. An outgoing president who refused to give up power would not be the government, and would be trying to overthrow the legitimate government, so that would be in the mix, along with anything else illegal that happened in the course of the coup attempt. Planning it or taking steps to accomplish it could be "conspiracy to overthrow the government" even if the outgoing president did those things while still president.

But it's not treason.

There are actually 10 crimes under the "Treason" code.

18 USC Ch. 115: TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES
2381.Treason.
2382.Misprision of treason.
2383.Rebellion or insurrection.
2384.Seditious conspiracy.
2385.Advocating overthrow of Government.
2386.Registration of certain organizations.
2387.Activities affecting armed forces generally.
2388.Activities affecting armed forces during war.
2389.Recruiting for service against United States.
2390.Enlistment to serve against United States.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?...edition=prelim

[dirtywick]

he already tried the legislature, faithless electors, and now after the courts have failed the only place left to turn is military intervention, as Flynn and others already have begun calling for. one would hope that kind of talk is shut down quickly when Trump begins to call for it.

after that there's no where else to turn

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by slyjoe

There are actually 10 crimes under the "Treason" code.

18 USC Ch. 115: TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES
2381.Treason.
2382.Misprision of treason.
2383.Rebellion or insurrection.
2384.Seditious conspiracy.
2385.Advocating overthrow of Government.
2386.Registration of certain organizations.
2387.Activities affecting armed forces generally.
2388.Activities affecting armed forces during war.
2389.Recruiting for service against United States.
2390.Enlistment to serve against United States.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?...edition=prelim

I guess I'll have to look up misprision. I wouldn't want anybody misprsing treason, that's for sure. So, an outgoing president who takes steps to try and stay in power may be guilty of around 9 or those things. If shots actually get fired, he may even be guilty of treason itself, although that would be up to a judge, and ultimately, of 9 judges. Exactly what constitutes "time of war"?

Either way, a president who tried it, or even took steps to make it happen but never carried out the coup attempt, would be in a heck of a lot of trouble.

ETA: Misprision - the deliberate concealment of one's knowledge of a treasonable act or a felony.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

you really don't get it, do you?
you just want to troll.

No, you are the one who doesn't get it.

Trolling is defined as "posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages".

Brainster was not trolling. Brainster made an astute observation of Trump's behavior and related it to earlier examples.

A “Russia-gate” Timeline

Quote:

This is a bit of a read...

June 7, 2016: At a campaign rally Trump promises to give a major speech the following week outlining how the Russians gave money to Clinton to get preferential treatment. The speech never happens. Many view it as evidence Trump had advance knowledge of the June 9, 2016 Trump Tower meeting discussed below. As discussed below, Trump Junior asked the Russians specifically for that kind of information...

When news of Trump Junior’s June 9, 2016 secret meeting with Russians, set up to get dirt on Clinton, was reported in the New York Times, Trump directed staff to not discuss the emails setting the meeting up and dictated a misleading letter about the purpose of the meeting. Trump’s people then lied by claiming Trump had no role in that letter...

Late July 2016: According to testimony from FBI Director James Comey, the FBI begins an investigation into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. The investigation is prompted by reports from Australian diplomats about George Papadopolous bragging in the bar about getting dirt on Clinton from Russians....

Just weeks after Mueller was appointed Trump repeatedly ordered White Counsel Don McGahn to have Mueller removed. McGahn refused and prepared to resign rather than do so, telling others that he wanted to avoid a Nixon style “Saturday Night Massacre.” McGahn prepared his letter of resignation and even packed up his office in anticipation of resigning. As discussed below, Trump later ordered McGahn to falsely claim, and to create a false record, stating Trump never ordered him to fire Mueller.

April 18, 2019: A moderately redacted version of the Mueller Report is released by Attorney General Barr... The Mueller Report goes on to note that “it is important to view the President’s pattern of conduct as a whole” because “that pattern sheds light on the nature of the President ‘s acts and the inferences that can be drawn about his intent.” Mueller then states:

“Our investigation found multiple acts by the President that were capable of exerting undue influence over law enforcement investigations, including the Russian-interference and obstruction investigations. The incidents were often carried out through one-on-one meetings in which the President sought to use his official power outside of usual channels. These actions ranged from efforts to remove the Special Counsel and to reverse the effect of the Attorney General’s recusal; to the attempted use of official power to limit the scope of the investigation; to direct and indirect contacts with witnesses with the potential to influence their testimony.”

These events, which the Deplorables like to derisively label 'Russiagate' or 'the Russia Hoax', took years to unfold for the same reason this election has dragged out - Trump's attempts to subvert democracy. Whether it's negotiating a quid pro quo with Russia, or covering up misdeeds, or trying to steal an election, it's all part of the same corrupt and deceitful strategy to obtain and keep power for himself. The truth is, 'Russiagate' never really ended, it just merged in with 'the China Virus' and 'Stop the steal' as Trump continued to lie and cheat his way through life - with republicans following him like lap dogs.

It started with Trump embracing 'birtherism' and a putdown by Obama. After that humiliation he had to punch back 10 times harder, because Trump has always been a sore loser. The result is where we are now. While Trump continues to exert influence over republicans this farce will continue to drag on.

[Craig4]

It is against the law to pretend to be an officer of the US Government and attempt to use the authorities of the government. I could see a scenario where Trump would issue an executive order "from exile" and threaten to fire government officers who didn't follow it.

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I guess I'll have to look up misprision. I wouldn't want anybody misprsing treason, that's for sure. So, an outgoing president who takes steps to try and stay in power may be guilty of around 9 or those things.

I got to about 7, but ok.

Quote:

If shots actually get fired, he may even be guilty of treason itself, although that would be up to a judge, and ultimately, of 9 judges. Exactly what constitutes "time of war"?

IIRC, that was intended to involve foreign entities.

Quote:

Either way, a president who tried it, or even took steps to make it happen but never carried out the coup attempt, would be in a heck of a lot of trouble.

ETA: Misprision - the deliberate concealment of one's knowledge of a treasonable act or a felony.

[slyjoe]

Originally Posted by Craig4

It is against the law to pretend to be an officer of the US Government and attempt to use the authorities of the government. I could see a scenario where Trump would issue an executive order "from exile" and threaten to fire government officers who didn't follow it.

Yes, but usually those folks are quietly led to a room with soft walls and start treatment.

[eerok]

deleted - not the hill I want to die on

[Delvo]

For the current situation with Trump, none of it has any chance of going anywhere. This election is over, and Trump and his cult can't do anything about it. (And if they wouldn't want to if they thought about it, since they mostly won.)

Trump won't return in a few years either. His mental & physical condition will be too far gone by then if he's even still alive. (Just watch he most recent speech and try to count the weird body twitches.)

But the situation in general is heading for disaster down the road. The Republicult has begun demanding wildly illegal and anti-Constitutional behavior of its politicians, and the latter will sooner or later end up obeying the former in other situations where they actually can affect the outcome, not just cases like the current one where they can't. The Democrats won't do anything to stop them because every move they make is exactly what they'd do if helping them were their primary goal. So, although most of the Republicult is currently lamenting the fact that Trump didn't manage to be their Octavius, they'll get their real Octavius soon enough.

At least, that's what's coming currently. Stopping/preventing/avoiding it is not impossible, just unlikely.

Secession would actually be an escape from that fate for the rest of us, one that I not only would approve of allowing if they tried it themselves, but would even favor doing from the left, for our own good, if there were any real possibility of that happening. Yes, it is unfortunate that life would start getting worse fast in Redland, but it would also start getting better fast in Blueland, and that's where more people live, so it would be a net improvement overall, including where I live.

Another possible escape hatch from the Octavius situation is if the conventional pre-Trump type of Republican were to take back control of their party from the monsters they created. They are, after all, the party's main source of money, even if they are a minority of its voters now.

One more possible escape hatch is in the nature of cults: they tend do disperse after the loss of the figurehead, and their current figurehead doesn't have much time left, so we'll soon see whether this cult has the ability to outlast him and latch onto a new one. I don't expect them to fade away to nothing, but I can see them fragmenting to insignificance when several different figureheads try to take Trump's place at once.

[dirtywick]

It’s hard to imagine Trumpism outlasting Trump. It’s not an ideology

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

This thought is interesting. Declaring yourself president, when you haven't been elected must be a crime. Actually, perhaps treason. Maybe we should wish for him to go there.

I had a look at USA history. There was a Mormon fellow, in the late 1800s who declared himself King. I couldn't find any specific law, but the Wikipedia page suggested the numerous charges that could be made, including trespass on government land, treason and counterfeiting. I guess in the modern world, there would be financial laws against raising money possibly as simple as fraud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Strang

It is an interesting area. Royal lineages do seem to arise to take power by force or conquest, so I can't really say my queen has some legal right for her family line to have become monarchs.

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

It’s hard to imagine Trumpism outlasting Trump. It’s not an ideology

I agree. I'm thinking "the cult of personality" is a real dynamic.

I imagine Newsmax and OANN will pick a new conservative hero and promote that person. Trump will be forgotten

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

he already tried the legislature, faithless electors, and now after the courts have failed the only place left to turn is military intervention, as Flynn and others already have begun calling for. one would hope that kind of talk is shut down quickly when Trump begins to call for it.

after that there's no where else to turn

The Gravy Seals.

[Mader Levap]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

It’s hard to imagine Trumpism outlasting Trump. It’s not an ideology

It will outlast. They will simply find new Fuhrer - likely more competent one.

[Brainster]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

But, be fair. It never amounted to anything. It made a lot of headlines, and took up a lot of time and energy. It affected some careers, but it didn't bring down the president, and probably was even a win, politically, for the Republicans, although that's difficult to measure.

Much like the current constitutional "crisis" (except that I would expect it redound to the credit of the Democrats).

[eerok]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

It’s hard to imagine Trumpism outlasting Trump. It’s not an ideology

Trumpism is a cult of personality (disorder), so yes.

[LongFuzzy]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard

I had a look at USA history. There was a Mormon fellow, in the late 1800s who declared himself King. I couldn't find any specific law, but the Wikipedia page suggested the numerous charges that could be made, including trespass on government land, treason and counterfeiting. I guess in the modern world, there would be financial laws against raising money possibly as simple as fraud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Strang

It is an interesting area. Royal lineages do seem to arise to take power by force or conquest, so I can't really say my queen has some legal right for her family line to have become monarchs.

I call your King, and raise you an Emperor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Brainster

Much like the current constitutional "crisis" (except that I would expect it redound to the credit of the Democrats).

It’s going to be fun to throw posts like this in the faces of “Nothing Trump does is a big deal” conservatives when they complain about Biden over the next four years.

Attempting to subvert democracy is fine, but hopefully Biden won’t wear a tan suit or fist-bump his wife.

[Athyrio]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

It’s hard to imagine Trumpism outlasting Trump. It’s not an ideology

I just hope his hairstyle will be remembered as fondly as Hitler's moustache.

[Safe-Keeper]

Originally Posted by Brainster

Russiagate went on for years. Sore losers tend not to move on.

Okay, I'll bite.
The Mueller probe had actual evidence behind it, and uncovered actual corruption. Trump's accusation of the election being rigged is a conspiracy theory.

Also, as others pointed out, once it was over, it was over. You didn't have Clinton hissing and spitting on Twitter for months afterwards. You didn't have demonstrations in the streets or Democrats demanding Mueller change his conclusions. In fact it was the Trump administration that kept trying to obstruct the investigation.

[cullennz]

As much as the media like to hype it all up, Trump will just go A new president will start and hopefully the forum loses the fixation with one idiot.

[Safe-Keeper]

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

It will outlast. They will simply find new Fuhrer - likely more competent one.

Oh, facist-leaning authoritarianism will outlast Trump. The 2020 election is all the evidence of that. It also preceded him, he was just the first person to dare tap into it as much as he did.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Oh, facist-leaning authoritarianism will outlast Trump. The 2020 election is all the evidence of that. It also preceded him, he was just the first person to dare tap into it as much as he did.

Think that might be a slight exaggeration

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by cullennz

As much as the media like to hype it all up, Trump will just go A new president will start and hopefully the forum loses the fixation with one idiot.

The hyping comes from Trump, with making sure that there is always one more lawsuit - the media is mostly just reporting.

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

It will outlast. They will simply find new Fuhrer - likely more competent one.

I fear you're right and it will be someone outside of the Trump world. None of Trump's spawn can do what their dad did and lick spittles don't follow other lick spittles. The new fuhrer will be someone who can use the grievances of Trump supporters but was never one of the dogs in vying for a turn to hump Trump's leg.

[Safe-Keeper]

Norwegian news report one person has been shot and several stabbed in clashes between the Proud Boys and counter-protesters in Olympia and Washington.

Eight people are injured, including two police officers.

English language link: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...er-protesters/

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Norwegian news report one person has been shot and several stabbed in clashes between the Proud Boys and counter-protesters in Olympia and Washington.

Eight people are injured, including two police officers.

English language link: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...er-protesters/

If the counter protestors really wanted to have an impact, they'd stay home. They already won. These clashes only serve Trump's interests at least in his mind. If the counter protestors would stop showing up, the Trumptrash would just be a bunch of kooks with bullhorns.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Craig4

If the counter protestors really wanted to have an impact, they'd stay home. They already won. These clashes only serve Trump's interests at least in his mind. If the counter protestors would stop showing up, the Trumptrash would just be a bunch of kooks with bullhorns.

hard disagree.

those Nazi-adjacent folks will attack freelance reporters and people they don't like the look of.
Better to give them a target that can fight back and comes with medics and support than getting bystanders hurt.

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

The hyping comes from Trump, with making sure that there is always one more lawsuit - the media is mostly just reporting.

Think it more just fixation with one idiot tbh.

I mean the twat is gone in a few weeks. There is a time to stop bitching about one person.