How far is this going to go? - Page 6

turingtest · 18th December 2020, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

If we manage a peaceful transition of power even with all the sabotage Trump is attempting, will that say anything about the resilience of our system?

It's all on the saner Republicans at this point to control the damage over the next few weeks. They have of course been complicit in allowing things to get to this point, but isn't McConnell going to have to quietly cut Tuberville off at the knees for defying herd discipline? My hope is the Deep State can arrange reasonable continuity of military readiness, public health management and other critical functions. The Supreme Court has made a tentative stand and the Senate looks like it will accept reality. Joe Biden probably commands more personal loyalty than Trump could ever hope for, which may be cause for hope. The House is a different story, I have no handle on what could happen there.

It'll say that the system was resilient enough this time, but "resilient" isn't "infinitely elastic." The shape that the system has re-assumed may be close enough to pre-Trump standards to pass for normal, but it's been stretched enough that the next go-around could pop it. Just the way (for example) that the GOP decided to accommodate him by ramming through his SC pick in his last few months in office, even when he outright said he wanted her there for possible use after the election, and after denying Obama his pick in his last year, has made it almost impossible for any standard but momentary political expediency to apply when next needed. And "he has a right to pursue all possible legal avenues!" in defying a loss that was as plain as it could be by the standard of his own previous win has pushed that norm completely, and maybe irretrievably, out of any shape that could contain any future president's readiness to push a little harder.

Trebuchet · 18th December 2020, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

It may not be over yet. Senator-Elect Tommy Turberville may be planning to join Rep. Mo Brooks in challenging the EC result in Congress, giving Trump the opportunity of losing one final time.

(Lifted from one of the CT threads where Captain Swoop posted it earlier today.)

Dave

Originally Posted by Horatius

Man, I still can't believe that's actually his name. It sounds like a cartoon name. I feel like that kid in The Last Action Hero who points out that one of the cops is actually a cartoon cat, and everyone else keeps missing the point, and insisting "That cat is one of the best men I've got!"

Originally Posted by eerok

Isn't he related to Tess of the Turbervilles?

It's tuberville, damn it. Tuber! Like a potato, which is what he has for brains. Played American football before the wimpy current era, when men were men and concussions were a good thing!

eerok · 18th December 2020, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

It's tuberville, damn it. Tuber! Like a potato, which is what he has for brains. Played American football before the wimpy current era, when men were men and concussions were a good thing!

I was just trying to give the silly spud some class.

dirtywick · 18th December 2020, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by turingtest

And "he has a right to pursue all possible legal avenues!" in defying a loss that was as plain as it could be by the standard of his own previous win has pushed that norm completely, and maybe irretrievably, out of any shape that could contain any future president's readiness to push a little harder.

It’s a dodge anyway. It’s not him pursing all legal avenues that’s the problem, it’s baselessly accusing his political opponents of orchestrating the fraud, and worse, that’s the problem. And he’s eroded norms so far that even accusing the entire opposition party, large parts of the federal government, the judiciary to include your own appointments, state governments, and even members of your own party and cabinet of fraud and treason is seen as normal and even expected behavior.

And honestly it’s a bit ironic that DJT hopelessly trying to convince people he didn’t botch his entire presidency is now trying desperately to convince America that he botched election security, but can’t. Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.

RecoveringYuppy · 18th December 2020, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

To be fair, this isn't because they refuse to admit that Biden is the President-Elect, but because Trump delayed the handover so long and fired so many of the people who knew what they were doing that they simply can't cope with the workload.

How is it you know that the "excessive workload" excuse is real? That element of this story seems to come from the filthy pernicious liars. I can't find any source that has independently confirmed that. Most sources say this came as a surprise to the Pentagon which would seem to indicate they don't agree that there is a workload problem.

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

In other words, it's Trump who's been crapping on the carpet, not the Pentagon.

"In other words" doesn't seem to work here since this doesn't appear to be restatement of the above. Also, it seems you think that blame appeared to be on the Pentagon? The article cites the Trump administration (Miller specifically) as the source of the order.

crescent · 18th December 2020, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

If we manage a peaceful transition of power even with all the sabotage Trump is attempting, will that say anything about the resilience of our system?

I keep thinking a bit about the Overton Window. Even if we get through this (which we will), will this shift the Republican's party towards distrusting election results strongly enough to lead to much, much worse things down the road? If that's true, then the system might get through this but in a fatally weakened way.

Trump just the Avatar of the last gasp of contrarianism before things move the other way? - a demagogue with no successor?

Delvo · 18th December 2020, 06:56 PM

The answer depends at least as much on what the Democrats do as on what the Republicans do. The main thing that made Trump possible in the first place is that people tend to see neither party as doing them any good. The first party to change that will be able to move things in that party's direction.

dirtywick · 18th December 2020, 07:03 PM

Trump seems to have been a political awakening for a lot of people who were otherwise disinterested in politics. If those people will remain interested in politics without Trump, if others can capture their attention, and if Trump can keep them motivated from the sidelines, that all remains to be seen.

Meadmaker · 18th December 2020, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

It’s a dodge anyway. It’s not him pursing all legal avenues that’s the problem, it’s baselessly accusing his political opponents of orchestrating the fraud, and worse, that’s the problem.

Amen.

I started getting confident Biden would win Wednesday or Thursday of election week. By Friday evening I was almost certain, and then the networks gave their acknowledgement Saturday. At that point, I was relieved, but commented that there were still lawsuits to deal with, and that Trump had every right to pursue them.

As not just he and Rudy talked about evidence of fraud and of irregularities, and mountains of evidence, there was a little voice in the back of my head warning me not to get too confident. I can't remember what day it was that I started a thread to have a place to discuss election fraud, but I waited for the evidence to see how difficult it was to refute.

And nothing resembling evidence really came. Oh, sure there was testimony and charges and all the rest, but it was rambling and incoherent. My nervousness that Trump could pull this off somehow was replaced with outrage that he would even try. It was obvious there was nothing. It was obvious Biden had gotten more votes, even using electoral college math. There was no doubt. Biden won.

And yet here was Trump still tweeting and his cracked legal team releasing sea monsters, all in an attempt to subvert the election result and with it American democracy. This wasn't an American citizen pursuing his legal rights in a court of law. This was a charlatan trying to cheat in broad daylight.

It really made me mad

The Great Zaganza · 18th December 2020, 10:30 PM

What's the upside for Republicans not to claim the election was stolen from now until forever?
(Besides being able to sleep).

Skeptic Ginger · 18th December 2020, 10:44 PM

How far is this going to go?

32 days, 14 hours and counting down.

TragicMonkey · 18th December 2020, 11:29 PM

How far? Let's go all the way!

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I AGREE

I've resisted it since I first read the thread title, finally gave in.

Stacyhs · 19th December 2020, 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

It's tuberville, damn it. Tuber! Like a potato, which is what he has for brains. Played American football before the wimpy current era, when men were men and concussions were a good thing!

That might explain his saying that the three branches of government are the House, the Senate and the Executive and his Dad fought in WWII to save Europe from Socialism. It's either that or he was just born stupid. Or maybe... it's both?

18th December 2020, 05:11 PM	#201
turingtest Mistral, mistral wind... Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi Posts: 4,683	Originally Posted by Minoosh If we manage a peaceful transition of power even with all the sabotage Trump is attempting, will that say anything about the resilience of our system? It's all on the saner Republicans at this point to control the damage over the next few weeks. They have of course been complicit in allowing things to get to this point, but isn't McConnell going to have to quietly cut Tuberville off at the knees for defying herd discipline? My hope is the Deep State can arrange reasonable continuity of military readiness, public health management and other critical functions. The Supreme Court has made a tentative stand and the Senate looks like it will accept reality. Joe Biden probably commands more personal loyalty than Trump could ever hope for, which may be cause for hope. The House is a different story, I have no handle on what could happen there. It'll say that the system was resilient enough this time, but "resilient" isn't "infinitely elastic." The shape that the system has re-assumed may be close enough to pre-Trump standards to pass for normal, but it's been stretched enough that the next go-around could pop it. Just the way (for example) that the GOP decided to accommodate him by ramming through his SC pick in his last few months in office, even when he outright said he wanted her there for possible use after the election, and after denying Obama his pick in his last year, has made it almost impossible for any standard but momentary political expediency to apply when next needed. And "he has a right to pursue all possible legal avenues!" in defying a loss that was as plain as it could be by the standard of his own previous win has pushed that norm completely, and maybe irretrievably, out of any shape that could contain any future president's readiness to push a little harder.
	__________________ I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King Last edited by turingtest; 18th December 2020 at 05:15 PM. Reason: emphasis

18th December 2020, 05:22 PM	#202
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,067	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers It may not be over yet. Senator-Elect Tommy Turberville may be planning to join Rep. Mo Brooks in challenging the EC result in Congress, giving Trump the opportunity of losing one final time. (Lifted from one of the CT threads where Captain Swoop posted it earlier today.) Dave Originally Posted by Horatius Man, I still can't believe that's actually his name. It sounds like a cartoon name. I feel like that kid in The Last Action Hero who points out that one of the cops is actually a cartoon cat, and everyone else keeps missing the point, and insisting "That cat is one of the best men I've got!" Originally Posted by eerok Isn't he related to Tess of the Turbervilles? It's tuberville, damn it. Tuber! Like a potato, which is what he has for brains. Played American football before the wimpy current era, when men were men and concussions were a good thing!
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

18th December 2020, 05:24 PM	#203
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 3,572	Originally Posted by Trebuchet It's tuberville, damn it. Tuber! Like a potato, which is what he has for brains. Played American football before the wimpy current era, when men were men and concussions were a good thing! I was just trying to give the silly spud some class.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

18th December 2020, 06:08 PM	#204
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,143	Originally Posted by turingtest And "he has a right to pursue all possible legal avenues!" in defying a loss that was as plain as it could be by the standard of his own previous win has pushed that norm completely, and maybe irretrievably, out of any shape that could contain any future president's readiness to push a little harder. It’s a dodge anyway. It’s not him pursing all legal avenues that’s the problem, it’s baselessly accusing his political opponents of orchestrating the fraud, and worse, that’s the problem. And he’s eroded norms so far that even accusing the entire opposition party, large parts of the federal government, the judiciary to include your own appointments, state governments, and even members of your own party and cabinet of fraud and treason is seen as normal and even expected behavior. And honestly it’s a bit ironic that DJT hopelessly trying to convince people he didn’t botch his entire presidency is now trying desperately to convince America that he botched election security, but can’t. Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,143

18th December 2020, 07:03 PM	#208
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,143	Trump seems to have been a political awakening for a lot of people who were otherwise disinterested in politics. If those people will remain interested in politics without Trump, if others can capture their attention, and if Trump can keep them motivated from the sidelines, that all remains to be seen.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,143

18th December 2020, 06:38 PM	#205
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,782	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers To be fair, this isn't because they refuse to admit that Biden is the President-Elect, but because Trump delayed the handover so long and fired so many of the people who knew what they were doing that they simply can't cope with the workload. How is it you know that the "excessive workload" excuse is real? That element of this story seems to come from the filthy pernicious liars. I can't find any source that has independently confirmed that. Most sources say this came as a surprise to the Pentagon which would seem to indicate they don't agree that there is a workload problem. Originally Posted by Dave Rogers In other words, it's Trump who's been crapping on the carpet, not the Pentagon. "In other words" doesn't seem to work here since this doesn't appear to be restatement of the above. Also, it seems you think that blame appeared to be on the Pentagon? The article cites the Trump administration (Miller specifically) as the source of the order.

18th December 2020, 06:47 PM	#206
crescent Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 3,989	Originally Posted by Minoosh If we manage a peaceful transition of power even with all the sabotage Trump is attempting, will that say anything about the resilience of our system? I keep thinking a bit about the Overton Window. Even if we get through this (which we will), will this shift the Republican's party towards distrusting election results strongly enough to lead to much, much worse things down the road? If that's true, then the system might get through this but in a fatally weakened way. Trump just the Avatar of the last gasp of contrarianism before things move the other way? - a demagogue with no successor?

18th December 2020, 06:56 PM	#207
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,306	The answer depends at least as much on what the Democrats do as on what the Republicans do. The main thing that made Trump possible in the first place is that people tend to see neither party as doing them any good. The first party to change that will be able to move things in that party's direction.

18th December 2020, 09:29 PM	#209
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,286	Originally Posted by dirtywick It’s a dodge anyway. It’s not him pursing all legal avenues that’s the problem, it’s baselessly accusing his political opponents of orchestrating the fraud, and worse, that’s the problem. Amen. I started getting confident Biden would win Wednesday or Thursday of election week. By Friday evening I was almost certain, and then the networks gave their acknowledgement Saturday. At that point, I was relieved, but commented that there were still lawsuits to deal with, and that Trump had every right to pursue them. As not just he and Rudy talked about evidence of fraud and of irregularities, and mountains of evidence, there was a little voice in the back of my head warning me not to get too confident. I can't remember what day it was that I started a thread to have a place to discuss election fraud, but I waited for the evidence to see how difficult it was to refute. And nothing resembling evidence really came. Oh, sure there was testimony and charges and all the rest, but it was rambling and incoherent. My nervousness that Trump could pull this off somehow was replaced with outrage that he would even try. It was obvious there was nothing. It was obvious Biden had gotten more votes, even using electoral college math. There was no doubt. Biden won. And yet here was Trump still tweeting and his cracked legal team releasing sea monsters, all in an attempt to subvert the election result and with it American democracy. This wasn't an American citizen pursuing his legal rights in a court of law. This was a charlatan trying to cheat in broad daylight. It really made me mad
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

18th December 2020, 10:30 PM	#210
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,688	What's the upside for Republicans not to claim the election was stolen from now until forever? (Besides being able to sleep).
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

18th December 2020, 10:44 PM	#211
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,032	How far is this going to go? 32 days, 14 hours and counting down.

19th December 2020, 01:32 AM	#213
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,031	Originally Posted by Trebuchet It's tuberville, damn it. Tuber! Like a potato, which is what he has for brains. Played American football before the wimpy current era, when men were men and concussions were a good thing! That might explain his saying that the three branches of government are the House, the Senate and the Executive and his Dad fought in WWII to save Europe from Socialism. It's either that or he was just born stupid. Or maybe... it's both?