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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies , Trump impeachment

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Old 12th January 2021, 08:50 PM   #521
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I never thought he was crazy. Evil, maybe, but not crazy.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Whoever thought we'd be saying that Dubya was the more competent president than another president?
We've had evil presidents and idiot presidents, but Trump is truly an evil idiot president.

His idiocy, if anything, makes things better. Imagine what he would have been like if he actually knew anything and had competent people around him.
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Old 12th January 2021, 08:51 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Basic rule is "it can always get worse". In this case, in 4 years there will be republican contender for presidency worse than Trump. Let it sink in.
Tell me about it. I say it all the time myself.

In this case, "worse" would be someone who is smart.

In fact, one thing that might smooth the way for a worse president is if it becomes the new Godwin to compare people to Trump.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 12th January 2021, 09:45 PM   #523
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Reporters who cover the Senate say that McConnell really, really, hates Trump. He blamed Trump for blowing the Georgia election and costing him the Majority even beforre the Insurrection, and that just made MCConnell hate him al lthe more.
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Old 12th January 2021, 09:49 PM   #524
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I heard that the drying up of corporate donations is creating an incentive to impeach.
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Old 12th January 2021, 10:12 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Reporters who cover the Senate say that McConnell really, really, hates Trump. He blamed Trump for blowing the Georgia election and costing him the Majority even beforre the Insurrection, and that just made MCConnell hate him al lthe more.
This. Donny is the sloppy turd in McConnell's own punchbowl of political graft and corruption. The Turtle was doin' just fine coasting along untouched to a fortune, until Donny came along and ruined it all.
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Old 12th January 2021, 11:18 PM   #526
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Mitch had himself a nice little kingdom going in the Senate and Donnie came along and ruined it.

Will no one rid me of this meddlesome president? Oh, hey...Nancy...got a sec?
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Old 12th January 2021, 11:24 PM   #527
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I hope the far-right voters Trump mobilized for the GOP will feel as betrayed as they were and never vote Red again.
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Old 12th January 2021, 11:29 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Reporters who cover the Senate say that McConnell really, really, hates Trump. He blamed Trump for blowing the Georgia election and costing him the Majority even beforre the Insurrection, and that just made MCConnell hate him al lthe more.
I have no doubt that Moscow Mitch hates Trump.

But, the thing that Moscow Mitch loves is power. His decision to join in on the impeachment is going to depend on whether he thinks it will help republicans in the future more than anything else.

Look at it this way: McConnell claimed that the senate couldn't start looking at impeachment until the 19th or 20th. Schumer pointed out that the rules allow the senate to meet earlier, if they wanted to look at impeachment almost immediately. If McConnell really wanted Trump gone early, why didn't he pick up on that little rule? Not like Mitch is a newbie when it comes to senate procedures.

See: The Hill
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Old 12th January 2021, 11:34 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I saw that, too. I'm absolutely boggled.

I mean, I thought that McConnell had concluded that Trump was a liability and wanted him out, but I didn't think he'd actually let it be known that he felt that way.
Follow the money. It ain't hard. A number of corporations that donate a lot to GOP candidates dumped Trump and anyone who supports him.
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Old 12th January 2021, 11:35 PM   #530
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One thing I am sure about. McConnell can count. Surely privately he has done some serious checking as to whether or not he has the numbers to win, and that is absolutely vital to know before he commits to anything, Same with Pence. He probably does not want to go ahead with Section 25 because he has not got, and can't get the numbers in Cabinet.


When you make a serious move, make sure you can win first. Rule No. One for any savvy Politician.



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Old 12th January 2021, 11:36 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
What makes you think Trump is toast? If he's still alive in 2024, what makes you think he couldn't win?
If Trump is a viable candidate in 2024, we're all going to still be in deep trouble.
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Old 12th January 2021, 11:44 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
One thing I am sure about. McConnell can count. Surely privately he has done some serious checking as to whether or not he has the numbers to win, and that is absolutely vital to know before he commits to anything, Same with Pence. He probably does not want to go ahead with Section 25 because he has not got, and can't get the numbers in Cabinet.


When you make a serious move, make sure you can win first. Rule No. One for any savvy Politician.



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That's my fear. At least not until the new Senate takes their seats, perhaps?
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Old 13th January 2021, 12:25 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I have no doubt that Moscow Mitch hates Trump.

But, the thing that Moscow Mitch loves is power. His decision to join in on the impeachment is going to depend on whether he thinks it will help republicans in the future more than anything else.

Look at it this way: McConnell claimed that the senate couldn't start looking at impeachment until the 19th or 20th. Schumer pointed out that the rules allow the senate to meet earlier, if they wanted to look at impeachment almost immediately. If McConnell really wanted Trump gone early, why didn't he pick up on that little rule? Not like Mitch is a newbie when it comes to senate procedures.

See: The Hill
i agree but it's hard to envision how tacitly endorsing an insurrection against themselves is going to make them stronger

personally i think nobody knows how to deal with this situation
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Old 13th January 2021, 12:28 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
McConnell and Cheney, sure, but the Joint Chiefs of Staff is a different matter. They essentially have to go along with the Commander-in-Chief.

It's just interesting troubling that they felt the need to remind their own forces that their duty is to the Constitution and NOT to the president.

For those who continue to insist that this is more coo-coo than coup coup, they obviously think that there is a risk that Trump will try to use military personnel to stay in power. Just this alone underlines how important it is to strip him of any influence whatsoever.
One of the reasons that I'm not overly worried about Trump's attempts to use the military is that the military has already had their say on which side they are on, on Nov 3rd with everyone else, and they voted in overwhelming numbers for Biden.

I think that the CoS reminder is aimed at the minority that supported Trump and might be part of the Trumpist Cult, rather than a belief that the majority of the military would side with Trump in any Coup attempt.
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Old 13th January 2021, 12:32 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
One of the reasons that I'm not overly worried about Trump's attempts to use the military is that the military has already had their say on which side they are on, on Nov 3rd with everyone else, and they voted in overwhelming numbers for Biden.

I think that the CoS reminder is aimed at the minority that supported Trump and might be part of the Trumpist Cult, rather than a belief that the majority of the military would side with Trump in any Coup attempt.
Of course. But the fact that there is handover where the JCS still feel the need to weigh in is the issue.
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Old 13th January 2021, 02:39 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
"There has never been a greater betrayal by a President of the United States of his office and of his oath to the Constitution" Liz Cheney
Not that I suddenly become a Liz Cheney fan, but her full statement is great.

Quote:
On January 6, 2021 a violent mob attacked the United States Capitol to obstruct the process of our democracy and stop the counting of presidential electoral votes. This insurrection caused injury, death and destruction in the most sacred space in our Republic.

Much more will become clear in coming days and weeks, but what we know now is enough. The President of the United States summoned this mob, assembled the mob, and lit the flame of this attack. Everything that followed was his doing. None of this would have happened without the President. The President could have immediately and forcefully intervened to stop the violence. He did not. There has never been a greater betrayal by a President of the United States of his office and his oath to the Constitution.

I will vote to impeach the President.

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000...e-fefc40700000
No buts, no weasel words, not both-sideisms, no pious references to "concerns about the electoral process". Just a clear description of what happened and the logical conclusion.

Whether that will help her within the GOP caucus or not, we'll see.
But great to finally see another elected GOP leader, with a career still before her, come out this way against Trump.
Compare that to McCarthy and Scalise.
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Old 13th January 2021, 04:43 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And dust this back off....

New Articles of Impeachment coming on Monday, including “incitement of insurrection.”

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/08/polit...ans/index.html

There is indeed no way to support Trump's actions in general but now we have also 'incitement to insurrection'? When the guy tells clearly in his speech before the events that 'I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard'? All I see here (and in the shameful way Twitter, Facebook and so on basically censored him) is the same 'progressive' approach of cancelling the opposition with all costs, lies or half truths are always fully acceptable to combat the perceived 'fascists'. The problem is that this severe erosion of free speech does not serve anyone on medium and long term and this will be more and more visible in the future, if this kind of making 'justice' have its way. Trump may be a problem for democracy indeed but the current approach of continually restraining free speech is definitely not the right way ahead.
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Old 13th January 2021, 04:46 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
There is indeed no way to support Trump's actions in general but now we have also 'incitement to insurrection'? When the guy tells clearly in his speech before the events that 'I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard'?

All I see here (and in the shameful way Twitter, Facebook and so on basically censored him) is the same 'progressive' approach of cancelling the opposition with all costs, lies or half truths are always fully acceptable to combat the perceived 'fascists'. The problem is that this severe erosion of free speech does not serve anyone on medium and long term and this will be more and more visible in the future, if this kind of making 'justice' have its way. Trump may be a problem for democracy indeed but the current approach of continually restraining free speech is definitely not the right way ahead.
Try reading the first amendment. You seem to be confused about what "free speech" is.

ETA: And what makes you think the incitement to insurrection is ONLY about his speech on the ellipse?
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Old 13th January 2021, 04:59 AM   #539
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What Trump did is definitely not 'insurrection', his speech (widely produced as proof by some) cannot be used to claim that he intended to cause violence. The truth is rather that the massively 'progressive' infiltrated Democrats fear so much Trump that basically anything is useful to oust him. If Trump is cancelled using this 'progressive' patented method then anyone, no matter how rational, can be a victim in the future.
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Old 13th January 2021, 05:05 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
What Trump did is definitely not 'insurrection', his speech (widely produced as proof by some) cannot be used to claim that he intended to cause violence. The truth is rather that the massively 'progressive' infiltrated Democrats fear so much Trump that basically anything is useful to oust him. If Trump is cancelled using this 'progressive' patented method then anyone, no matter how rational, can be a victim in the future.
Of course his speech itself is not "insurrection". The question is: is it "incitement".

Proving intent IS the hard part. But impeachment is not a legal process, it's a political one. So forget about arguing legality.
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Old 13th January 2021, 05:07 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
What Trump did is definitely not 'insurrection', his speech (widely produced as proof by some) cannot be used to claim that he intended to cause violence. The truth is rather that the massively 'progressive' infiltrated Democrats fear so much Trump that basically anything is useful to oust him. If Trump is cancelled using this 'progressive' patented method then anyone, no matter how rational, can be a victim in the future.
Oh then you better not prosecute anyone who ever violates US laws and democracy. Just in case someone might do it again sometime in the future...
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Old 13th January 2021, 05:11 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
What Trump did is definitely not 'insurrection', his speech (widely produced as proof by some) cannot be used to claim that he intended to cause violence.
His speech is not being looked at stripped of all context. It's being looked at in the context that he has tried for months to discredit the 2020 elections, starting well before they even happened, in an attempt to undermine the result; that he has persuaded his supporters to believe that the Democratic Party, the judiciary and the legislature are conspiring to deny him a victory; that he as made it clear to them that simply following the rule of law has not redressed the situation. And it's also being looked at in the context of Trump's well-known modus operandi of hinting that people should do illegal things for him clearly enough that they understand that there will be rewards from him if they do them and penalties if they don't, while avoiding a direct order to break the law so as to protect himself from the consequences.

Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
The truth is rather that the massively 'progressive' infiltrated Democrats fear so much Trump that basically anything is useful to oust him.
No, the truth is that Trump is an anti-democratic authoritarian with a large following, and as such is an immediate danger to the survival of democracy in the US. And next time a more rational President, of whatever party, gives a speech which results directly in his audience trying, however incompetently, to overthrow the government and install him as dictator, then if this precedent is used to remove him from office that will be a very good thing.

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Old 13th January 2021, 05:11 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
There is indeed no way to support Trump's actions in general but now we have also 'incitement to insurrection'? When the guy tells clearly in his speech before the events that 'I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard'? All I see here (and in the shameful way Twitter, Facebook and so on basically censored him) is the same 'progressive' approach of cancelling the opposition with all costs, lies or half truths are always fully acceptable to combat the perceived 'fascists'. The problem is that this severe erosion of free speech does not serve anyone on medium and long term and this will be more and more visible in the future, if this kind of making 'justice' have its way. Trump may be a problem for democracy indeed but the current approach of continually restraining free speech is definitely not the right way ahead.
You are taking Trump at his word. You are allowing that what he said is exactly what he meant, no more, no less.

What he really said was "Nice Congress ya got there. Shame if some mob happened to 'walk over and protest', eh, guys? Heh heh, know what I mean!"
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Old 13th January 2021, 05:18 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
What Trump did is definitely not 'insurrection', his speech (widely produced as proof by some) cannot be used to claim that he intended to cause violence. The truth is rather that the massively 'progressive' infiltrated Democrats fear so much Trump that basically anything is useful to oust him. If Trump is cancelled using this 'progressive' patented method then anyone, no matter how rational, can be a victim in the future.
Leaving aside the right-wing fascist Trumpian apologetics of the post, could you tell me what your understanding of the highlighted word is and also why you think it is problematic? Also, your use of the quote function is wrong.
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Old 13th January 2021, 05:20 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Leaving aside the right-wing fascist Trumpian apologetics of the post, could you tell me what your understanding of the highlighteed word is and also why you think it is problematic? Also, your use of the quote function is wrong.
Bad people!
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Old 13th January 2021, 06:15 AM   #546
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Re: Republicans announcing their votes for impeachment...

On the one hand, what took them so long?

On the other hand, this stance shows some degree of bravery - they’ve exposed themselves to no small amount of risk, both political and personal, from Trump loyalists. I guess “We’ll see what happens”!
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Old 13th January 2021, 06:26 AM   #547
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The behind the scenes scuttlebutt (as always take with a grain of salt) is that unlike the last impeachment is that McConnell isn't pushing nearly as hard for the GOP to be a "single" voice and encouraging Senators to just vote how they want.

I half wonder if something similar changed in the House. If the "We all have to speak as one" thing is less pronounced this time.
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Old 13th January 2021, 06:48 AM   #548
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Example #1 of many, many:
The evening of the attack, one of my very conservative friends on Facebook posted about how this attack should make everyone understand how wrong the BLM protests/riots were. Yes, conservatives physically attacked the US government and his takeaway is that liberals are bad.

Example #Zillion:
Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
All I see here (and in the shameful way Twitter, Facebook and so on basically censored him) is the same 'progressive' approach of cancelling the opposition with all costs, lies or half truths are always fully acceptable to combat the perceived 'fascists'. The problem is that this severe erosion of free speech does not serve anyone on medium and long term and this will be more and more visible in the future . . .
Is there anyone on the right who looks at this situation and says, "maybe we did something wrong? Maybe we should do something different in the future?" Others have talked about the Republicans claiming to be the party of personal responsibility, but it's usually said in a reactive sense (punishing people who've done wrong), rather than proactive.

Is there not the slightest bit of introspection?
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Old 13th January 2021, 06:50 AM   #549
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McConnell is trying to figure out what the New Center of the GOP is.
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So what are you going to do about it, huh?
What would an intellectual do?
What would Plato do?
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Old 13th January 2021, 06:55 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Example #1 of many, many:
The evening of the attack, one of my very conservative friends on Facebook posted about how this attack should make everyone understand how wrong the BLM protests/riots were. Yes, conservatives physically attacked the US government and his takeaway is that liberals are bad.

Example #Zillion:


Is there anyone on the right who looks at this situation and says, "maybe we did something wrong? Maybe we should do something different in the future?" Others have talked about the Republicans claiming to be the party of personal responsibility, but it's usually said in a reactive sense (punishing people who've done wrong), rather than proactive.

Is there not the slightest bit of introspection?
Are we the bad guys?

https://youtu.be/OpZ8EkK3eWY
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Old 13th January 2021, 06:57 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
His speech is not being looked at stripped of all context. It's being looked at in the context that he has tried for months to discredit the 2020 elections, starting well before they even happened, in an attempt to undermine the result; that he has persuaded his supporters to believe that the Democratic Party, the judiciary and the legislature are conspiring to deny him a victory; that he as made it clear to them that simply following the rule of law has not redressed the situation. And it's also being looked at in the context of Trump's well-known modus operandi of hinting that people should do illegal things for him clearly enough that they understand that there will be rewards from him if they do them and penalties if they don't, while avoiding a direct order to break the law so as to protect himself from the consequences.



No, the truth is that Trump is an anti-democratic authoritarian with a large following, and as such is an immediate danger to the survival of democracy in the US. And next time a more rational President, of whatever party, gives a speech which results directly in his audience trying, however incompetently, to overthrow the government and install him as dictator, then if this precedent is used to remove him from office that will be a very good thing.

Dave
This exactly, and I don't know why it's so hard to understand. That Trump used the word "peacefully" in his speech doesn't drown out everything else he has said which, whether he intended it or not, foreseeably contributed (at least) to the opposite effect. You cannot, over a period of two months, tell people they've been robbed, that they need to fight for their rights, then realistically expect a mob of them to ignore all that because now you're saying "be nice."
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Old 13th January 2021, 07:02 AM   #552
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Again both the tiresome pedants and the Trump sycophants see themselves as the mob lawyer, standing in front of the jury and going "My Client didn't threaten the little shop in a shakedown scheme for protection money. He just walked into the defendant's store with his two associates Johnny 'The Fixer' and Marco 'The Heavy' and engaged him in casual conversation about what a nice shop it was and what a shame it would be if anything happened to it. Surely there is no law against that?"

Again the tiresome internet rule that inference is the same thing as "mind reading" is just stupid.
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Old 13th January 2021, 07:03 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
This exactly, and I don't know why it's so hard to understand.
I suspect that, in many cases, it's a matter of will rather than ability.

Dave
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Old 13th January 2021, 07:47 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again both the tiresome pedants and the Trump sycophants see themselves as the mob lawyer, standing in front of the jury and going "My Client didn't threaten the little shop in a shakedown scheme for protection money. He just walked into the defendant's store with his two associates Johnny 'The Fixer' and Marco 'The Heavy' and engaged him in casual conversation about what a nice shop it was and what a shame it would be if anything happened to it. Surely there is no law against that?"

Again the tiresome internet rule that inference is the same thing as "mind reading" is just stupid.
We are also allowed to use events that happened after his speech to try and determine what his intent was. Given how he didn’t do anything when the building was initially breached we can infer that they were doing what he expected and/or wanted. If it wasn’t what he wanted to happen he could have taken a range of actions to try and stop it - he didn’t.
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Old 13th January 2021, 07:52 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by metacristi View Post
There is indeed no way to support Trump's actions in general but now we have also 'incitement to insurrection'? When the guy tells clearly in his speech before the events that 'I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard'?
You are of course cherry-picking Trump's speech and events of the day, ignoring his actions in a wider context.

If a person says both "be nice... and here's a rock to bash someone's skull in", the fact that they said the 'be nice' part does not absolve the person of the effects of the "bash skulls" comment.

The fact is:

- Trump was speaking at a rally that claimed voter fraud. Even if no violence resulted, the fact that he was trying to delegitimize the election is harmful to the U.S. (Note: This is in addition to him doing thins like trying to pressure Georgia to change election results, which may have been a violation of election laws.)

- It was well known that there was a potential for violence at the rally... one of the Proud Boys was arrested before hand and was found to be carrying illegal weapons. Yet he decided to go ahead with speaking at the rally anyways

- While Trump did use the word 'peaceful' at the rally, he also used the phrase 'fight'... multiple times. While the term 'fight' can be used metaphorically, it is still a rather... loaded term

- During the same rally, another speaker associated with Trump called for 'trial by combat'... a statement Trump did not disavow or criticize at the time

- During / following the terrorist acts, Trump was initially slow to respond, and when he did react, one of his first statements was not to call for the prosecution of those involved, but to express 'love'

So no, simply using the word "peaceful" does not absolve Trump from the part he played in the sedition.
Quote:
All I see here (and in the shameful way Twitter, Facebook and so on basically censored him) is the same 'progressive' approach of cancelling the opposition with all costs, lies or half truths are always fully acceptable to combat the perceived 'fascists'. The problem is that this severe erosion of free speech...
The fact that you don't understand what "censorship" is immediately calls into attention your understanding of basic concepts in society.

The first amendment and the right to free speech protects people from interference from the government. It does not require any newspaper, media outlet, or Twitter/Facebook to carry that speech. They have the legal right to set their own terms and conditions for using the service, and Trump violated them. There is no "censorship".

Trump still has the right of free speech. He can call a press conference. He can set up his own web site. Or stand outside the white house wearing a tinfoil hat and scream his opinions at the top of his lungs. But nobody is legally required to broadcast those opinions.

The following comic is relevant. I suggest you read it:
XKCD
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Old 13th January 2021, 08:22 AM   #556
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Fine Republican House members going all in for peace and unity on the floor.

Jason Smith (R-MO): "This is a reckless impeachment. This will only bring up the hate and fire more than ever before."

Guy Reschenthaler (R-PA): "The measure before us today sets a dangerous precedent."

Needless to say that both of these fine gentlemen, concerned about hate and dangerous precedents, voted last week to block the electoral votes from Arizona and Pennsylvania. Both also supported the Texas AG lawsuit trying to get SCOTUS steal the election.
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Old 13th January 2021, 08:28 AM   #557
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Following the proceedings live, or was, but I don't cotton to groveling toadies. Had to get out of there.

Time was being a ring-kissing Redcoat was out of fashion. Nowadays, the Orwellian double speak in vogue among these detestable GOP butt lampreys is shocking only in that it indicates a minimally functioning intellect -- mild surprise! -- but one that is willingly in service of a noodle-spined court jester. They might as well don powered wigs and sniff their hankies.

Willingly, eagerly, expectantly, visibly quivering at the thought of the next virtual insertion from a man of power. "Oh, joy, rapture!"

"Republican" is the term I'll now use when I wish to call a someone a yeller-bellied snot unworthy of the gutter he floats in. Republican. Gutter. 'Nuf said.
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Old 13th January 2021, 08:37 AM   #558
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If I gathered a crowd a mile and a half from someone's house and lying told them this person was a sex trafficker who was in the process of raping children in their basement, and that we were going to march to their house, my also saying 'let's be peaceful' would not be a lick of mitigation for my crime. Violence was the eminently predictable and sought outcome, even if I deny it.

This is as close to yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater as it gets.
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Old 13th January 2021, 08:46 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
This is as close to yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater as it gets.
"Your Honor, when my client yelled, 'Fire,' he was merely expressing his opinion that there may have been a fire present. Was there actually a fire? Who knows? But he has a First-Amendment right to freely express his opinion. Yes, it's a tragedy that so many people died in the panic, but my client certainly didn't tell anyone that they should panic and crush or trample others. And yet, the district attorney is persecuting my client for merely expressing an opinion."
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Old 13th January 2021, 08:47 AM   #560
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Since Trump made a perfect speech and has no regrets, GOP defense will be weak. Susan Collins saying, later, that once more Trump has learned from his mistake will be laughed at.
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