[Split Thread] A second impeachment - Page 17

AnonyMoose · 13th January 2021, 01:48 PM

Watching the impeachment 2.0 charade on tv.... I've now come to the conclusion that the USA is no more. It is utterly, completely, and royally FUBAR'd from this day forward.

Republicans are spending their 30-60 second time slots to play whataboutisms and partisan ad hominems. Yeah... The USA can't even set aside it's myopic political circus for 5 minutes to come together and agree that Jan 6th was an abomination on the very fabric of the country, brought on by the nonstop attack of its electoral processes by the very person who is supposed to be not only leading the country and protecting the people, but also protecting the very governance of said country that he's been trying to undermine since his loss in November.

It was his claims of election fraud that fueled this mob to attack the capitol building. Period. Just that alone in and of itself is reason enough to impeach him and forbid him to ever hold office again, nevermind his riling up of the mob right before the march to the building. The simple fact of the matter is that this putz reneged on one of his most important job descriptions... to uphold the governance of the country by way of respecting the laws of the land. He failed bigly at one of the most easiest aspects of his job.

And this basket of deplorables can't even be honest with themselves about it? FFS.

Yup, so long as this republican party continues to exist, the USA is done for. Our great great grandchildren will be reading about this in their history books under the chapter titled: "The Country That Used To Be".

Un-fricken-believable.

dudalb · 13th January 2021, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

Good God, I really ******* hate Republicans.

I hate 90% of them. And I someone who has voted Republican, and am probably a moderate conservative on many iseues.

Dr. Keith · 13th January 2021, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by dasmiller

Would McConnell have any reason to fear a brief Pence presidency? I can't think of one, but maybe I'm missing something.

I don't think he likes Pence enough to let him be president, even if just for a day.

And, as others mentioned, Pence may pardon Trump.

Minoosh · 13th January 2021, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Border Reiver

At this stage I'm expecting, "Ladies and gentlemen of the Senate, the President was in no way inciting a disturbance in his speech of 6 January 2020. What he did was give veiled instructions to a crowd that had been prepared far enough in advance to prepare a mobile gallows. Since his words were obviously not intended to bring incite persons to action, but rather to give them the go ahead to carry out previously agreed to courses of action, his words do not meet the strict definition of the term and you must acquit."

I like that. I hope someone does say that. But it doesn't matter. This isn't a court of law. I'm guessing for most senators it will come down to the politics of their next re-election bid.

dudalb · 13th January 2021, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by AnonyMoose

Watching the impeachment 2.0 charade on tv.... I've now come to the conclusion that the USA is no more. It is utterly, completely, and royally FUBAR'd from this day forward.

Republicans are spending their 30-60 second time slots to play whataboutisms and partisan ad hominems. Yeah... The USA can't even set aside it's myopic political circus for 5 minutes to come together and agree that Jan 6th was an abomination on the very fabric of the country, brought on by the nonstop attack of its electoral processes by the very person who is supposed to be not only leading the country and protecting the people, but also protecting the very governance of said country that he's been trying to undermine since his loss in November.

It was his claims of election fraud that fueled this mob to attack the capitol building. Period. Just that alone in and of itself is reason enough to impeach him and forbid him to ever hold office again, nevermind his riling up of the mob right before the march to the building. The simple fact of the matter is that this putz reneged on one of his most important job descriptions... to uphold the governance of the country by way of respecting the laws of the land. He failed bigly at one of the most easiest aspects of his job.

And this basket of deplorables can't even be honest with themselves about it? FFS.

Yup, so long as this republican party continues to exist, the USA is done for. Our great great grandchildren will be reading about this in their history books under the chapter titled: "The Country That Used To Be".

Un-fricken-believable.

Venting much.

Thor 2 · 13th January 2021, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Again the idea the Senators can just... like not vote is already stupid to me. I mean that's literally your job.

The idea that they can't do it during an impeachment is worse.

When you're a member of Congress and the decision is on this level, you shouldn't get to stay in the corner.

Stupidity is not an uncommon affliction among Trump supporters.

Crossbow · 13th January 2021, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Nova Land

People keep saying that if the house votes to impeach Donald Trump then 67 votes are needed in the senate to convict him. For example, here's a quote from USA Today:

That is not correct. It does not require at least 67 members to support conviction, and it would be good for people to stop repeating that inaccuracy.

Ah, you may be thinking, but there are 100 senators, and the constitution says it takes a vote of 2/3 of the senators to convict, so that means it takes at least 67 senators. But that's a careless misreading of what the constitution actually says.

The relevant passage is in article I, section 3 of the US constitution. Here it is:

People keep saying we need 2/3 of the votes of the senate membership -- i.e. 67 votes -- to convict Trump. That's not what the constitution says. What the constitution says is that it takes 2/3 of the votes of those present.

If every senator were present, that would be 67 out of 100, but it's a mistake to assume 100 senators will be present. In fact, there almost certainly won't be if the impeachment trial occurs immediately, as at present there are only 99 senators, David Perdue's term having expired and Jon Ossoff not having been confirmed yet. So if all 99 members were present it would take 66 votes to convict.

But there is also no reason to assume all 99 members will be present. Very often the senate convenes and does business with less than all members present, which is why senate rules include a quorum requirement. The constitution addresses this in Article 1, Section 5: "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business." So a senate quorum is 50 at the moment, and will go back up to 51 after we return to having 100 senators.

If fewer than 100 senators are present, then fewer than 67 votes are needed to convict. So instead of focusing on trying to win the votes of the Republicans who are determined not to vote for impeachment, I think it would be smarter for those who'd like to see Trump removed from office to focus on trying to convince as many of those Republican senators as possible to boycott the impeachment trial. We refuse to dignify these proceedings by taking any part in them, Republican senators who want to at least appear to support Donald Trump could say, as a way to try to stay on the good side of the pro-Trumpers while allowing them to avoid actually going on record as voting to acquit him.

There are currently 99 senators, which includes 46 Democrats and 2 Democratic-voting indies. Let's assume all of them show up for the trial and all of them vote to convict, and consider how Republican attendance at the trial would affect things.

(a) If every senator showed up it would require 66 votes to convict, so those working for impeachment would need to get 18 Republican votes. That could be very hard to get.

(b) If 9 senators stayed home, those working for impeachment would need 60 out of 90 votes to convict. That means 12 Republican votes would be needed -- which would also probably be very hard to get...

(c) But suppose 18 Republicans could be persuaded to stand firm in opposition to the impeachment by refusing to attend the impeachment trial. Now there'd be 81 senators present, so it would require only 54 votes to convict. That means if 6 Republicans vote to convict, Donald Trump is convicted and removed from office. And that seems like a number the impeachment side might actually be able to attain.

Sorry, but I do not believe that you are entirely correct.

While you are correct in what the US Constitution has to say about '2/3 of the Senators present'.

But it is my understanding that according to the rules of the Senate, that unless a senator has some terribly important reason for being absent, then all 100 of the senators must be present when the Senate is going through a Presidential impeachment trial.

As such, it will take at least 67 senators to convict Trump.

ponderingturtle · 13th January 2021, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

Sorry, but I do not believe that you are entirely correct.

While you are correct in what the US Constitution has to say about '2/3 of the Senators present'.

But it is my understanding that according to the rules of the Senate, that unless a senator has some terribly important reason for being absent, then all 100 of the senators must be present when the Senate is going through a Presidential impeachment trial.

As such, it will take at least 67 senators to convict Trump.

Well 66 as long as they are only at 99 senators.

acbytesla · 13th January 2021, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

Sorry, but I do not believe that you are entirely correct.

While you are correct in what the US Constitution has to say about '2/3 of the Senators present'.

But it is my understanding that according to the rules of the Senate, that unless a senator has some terribly important reason for being absent, then all 100 of the senators must be present when the Senate is going through a Presidential impeachment trial.

As such, it will take at least 67 senators to convict Trump.

This is like the rule against abstentions. They have to have a reason, but only need to state it upon being pressed by the Senate. In other words it can be ignored with a wink and a nod.

acbytesla · 13th January 2021, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

I don't know how it works. Is there going to be a vote today on impeachment? Will we know today if it happens, or tomorrow, or what?

My understanding is the plan is there is to be a vote today. I doubt they will deviate from that plan.

JoeMorgue · 13th January 2021, 02:12 PM

Voting just begun.

JoeMorgue · 13th January 2021, 02:14 PM

9 Republicans have voted Aye, no Democrats have voted Nay. Waiting on the last 24 votes.

AnonyMoose · 13th January 2021, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Venting much.

Yes. Yes I am.

Sitting on your ass whining about an internet forum vent rather than getting on the phone and demanding some answers from your government because this is just a big ol' nothing burger much? Yes. Yes you are.

dudalb · 13th January 2021, 02:15 PM

217 for Impeahcment. Trump is impeached for a second time.
This had to be done, but I got a feeling that all hell is going break lose next week. This will inflame the MAGA Maniacs.

JoeMorgue · 13th January 2021, 02:16 PM

227 Aye
194 Nay
11 Not Voting

Mr Fied · 13th January 2021, 02:16 PM

Done, or should I say OVAH

Firestone · 13th January 2021, 02:16 PM

Now 10 Republican Yeas.

As someone remarked, the most bipartisan presidential impeachment in US history.

dudalb · 13th January 2021, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by AnonyMoose

Yes. Yes I am.

Sitting on your ass whining about an internet forum vent rather than getting on the phone and demanding some answers from your government because this is just a big ol' nothing burger much? Yes. Yes you are.

https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1605...600,f8f8f8.jpg

Oh i have been emailin my Representatives and Senators about this
Probme is you attitude is so full of despair and fashionalbe angst that is helps nobody but the Trumpites.

alfaniner · 13th January 2021, 02:20 PM

One week to go!

Originally Posted by dudalb

I hate 90% of them. And I someone who has voted Republican, and am probably a moderate conservative on many iseues.

To be clear, I meant mostly the politicians.

Mr Fied · 13th January 2021, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I hate 90% of them. And I someone who has voted Republican, and am probably a moderate conservative on many iseues.

TBF, in the rest of the world, the Democrats would be considered moderate conservatives.

Steve · 13th January 2021, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Venting much.

Originally Posted by AnonyMoose

Yes. Yes I am.

Sitting on your ass whining about an internet forum vent rather than getting on the phone and demanding some answers from your government because this is just a big ol' nothing burger much? Yes. Yes you are.

https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1605...600,f8f8f8.jpg

It seems many Americans cannot see the forest for the trees. Watching from outside of your borders there is no question that your political system is one vast **** up. Trump's main accomplishment is to reveal just how bad it is and, surprisingly, many of you even now think there is something retrievable. It will not be salvaged for many years, if ever.

Skeptic Ginger · 13th January 2021, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by metacristi

What Trump did is definitely not 'insurrection', his speech (widely produced as proof by some) cannot be used to claim that he intended to cause violence. The truth is rather that the massively 'progressive' infiltrated Democrats fear so much Trump that basically anything is useful to oust him. If Trump is cancelled using this 'progressive' patented method then anyone, no matter how rational, can be a victim in the future.

Massively progressive infiltrated?
Oh what demonic people we must be.

Anything is useful to oust him? Damn if that were true he could have been impeached once a week for the last 4 years.

Anyone can be a victim in the future? That is Trump's message today responding to news of his impeachment. It's how one diminishes a most serious charge, make it sound like it was a run of the mill act.

No, just no.

alfaniner · 13th January 2021, 02:39 PM

Ironic that the number of YEAs for Impeachment is the same as the number as The PDJT's Electoral votes? (232)

I have to admit I did a slow clap at the announcement of the result, but there was no joy in it.

Pacal · 13th January 2021, 02:41 PM

232 Congressmen voted to Impeach Trump for a second time. Sadly 197 Republicans said nay. 5 Congressmen abstained.

I congratulate the 10 Republicans who voted for the Impeachment. Showing at least some real integrity.

What was very pathetic was the "arguments" put forth to excuse not voting for Impeachment. Whatever!!

dudalb · 13th January 2021, 02:44 PM

The Idiot freshman from Alabama, Barry Moore. who compared nasty tweets about Trump with the Storming of the Capitol has quite a interesting past:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_...ma_politician)

In most states, those fraud accuastions would end a political career but not in Alabama.

acbytesla · 13th January 2021, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Firestone

Now 10 Republican Yeas.

As someone remarked, the most bipartisan presidential impeachment in US history.

Yeah, that's only because Nixon resigned before the articles of impeachment were sent to the floor

AnonyMoose · 13th January 2021, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Oh i have been emailin my Representatives and Senators about this
Probme is you attitude is so full of despair and fashionalbe angst that is helps nobody but the Trumpites.

"Fashionable angst"? Well, isn't that precious... you think concern for what I'm witnessing is "fashionable angst".

There's a political party in your country that has no problem completely undermining the very fabric of your existence just so they don't have to admit out loud that they ****** up when they put this moron in charge. If that doesn't represent one of the most important issues that needs to be remedied immediately before it festers into an irreversible train wreck, then I don't know what does.

So long as the rest of the country continues to turn a blind eye to this screaming elephant in the room pretending that it'll just go away after Biden has taken office, you will have no one to blame but yourselves for the possible bloodshed that's coming down the pipeline from the radicalized right and left. They're itching for it and you're pretending it's all just a silly hyperbolic extravaganza that will die off on its own.

Are you really this short-sighted? Or are you just really this deep in denial?

Crossbow · 13th January 2021, 02:53 PM

Once again, the "very stable genius" known as President Trump manages to get himself into the history books.

I guess this yet another fine example of the "winning" that he promised to provide a few years ago.

catsmate · 13th January 2021, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by metacristi

What Trump did is definitely not 'insurrection', his speech (widely produced as proof by some) cannot be used to claim that he intended to cause violence. The truth is rather that the massively 'progressive' infiltrated Democrats fear so much Trump that basically anything is useful to oust him. If Trump is cancelled using this 'progressive' patented method then anyone, no matter how rational, can be a victim in the future.

Bollocks. I see you've branched out from Holocaust denial and general Jewish conspiracy mongering to apologism for Trump's pathetic attempt to illegally hold on to power,
Trump lost, face reality.

Paul2 · 13th January 2021, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Pacal

What was very pathetic was the "arguments" put forth to excuse not voting for Impeachment. Whatever!!

Even put in the best possible light, I can imagine that a politician might feel the need to tell lies because they think they have to reflect the will of their constituents, like a trial lawyer has to sing the praises and defend a murderous thug. But a politician doesn’t play the same role as a lawyer, and has to at times act on their conscience and not play the game.

Either way, there is no excuse for not voting for impeachment.

Steve · 13th January 2021, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by AnonyMoose

"Fashionable angst"? Well, isn't that precious... you think concern for what I'm witnessing is "fashionable angst".

There's a political party in your country that has no problem completely undermining the very fabric of your existence just so they don't have to admit out loud that they ****** up when they put this moron in charge. If that doesn't represent one of the most important issues that needs to be remedied immediately before it festers into an irreversible train wreck, then I don't know what does.

So long as the rest of the country continues to turn a blind eye to this screaming elephant in the room pretending that it'll just go away after Biden has taken office, you will have no one to blame but yourselves for the possible bloodshed that's coming down the pipeline from the radicalized right and left. They're itching for it and you're pretending it's all just a silly hyperbolic extravaganza that will die off on its own.

Are you really this short-sighted? Or are you just really this deep in denial?

Political parties are not the real problem. They don't actually believe most of what they say. They will change their positions to whatever is profitable at the time. The real long term problem is the many millions of violent racist morons who have crawled out of their holes due to Trump's encouragement and honestly believe the crap the politicians are feeding them. These true believers are going to be around causing serious problems for many years.

Skeptic Ginger · 13th January 2021, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Bad people!

Not just any old bad, demonic.

Minoosh · 13th January 2021, 03:23 PM

My information is dated at best, but some time ago I heard someone in the political sphere rate the various means of contacting members of Congress in terms of impact. I forget the order of calls and emails, but old-fashioned snail mail was still the gold standard. A real letter was harder to put aside than a phone call or email and showed a greater commitment.

I don't think there's any chance either of my senators would vote to acquit, and this state's congressional delegation has a couple of members so odious and/or stupid that probably no message would get through to them.

I was half-listening to this in the gym and briefly thought there were going to be some changes of votes, or at least one, which I hoped would be more Republicans signing on. But for the most part I don't blame the Repubs for voting "nay." According to the CNN natterers a few of them made some pretty bad statements re: Trump but begged off due to timing or some such.

If Mitch wants to stick a fork in Trump I have every reason to believe he'd go along with a post-inauguration impeachment. Removal would be moot but he's probably as eager as anyone destroy Trump's political ambitions. Hard to believe Trump could get re-elected in four years' time but anything's possible.

dudalb · 13th January 2021, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Massively progressive infiltrated?
Oh what demonic people we must be.

Anything is useful to oust him? Damn if that were true he could have been impeached once a week for the last 4 years.

Anyone can be a victim in the future? That is Trump's message today responding to news of his impeachment. It's how one diminishes a most serious charge, make it sound like it was a run of the mill act.

No, just no.

Hey, this is one of Metacristi's more rational posts...

acbytesla · 13th January 2021, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

My information is dated at best, but some time ago I heard someone in the political sphere rate the various means of contacting members of Congress in terms of impact. I forget the order of calls and emails, but old-fashioned snail mail was still the gold standard. A real letter was harder to put aside than a phone call or email and showed a greater commitment.

I don't think there's any chance either of my senators would vote to acquit, and this state's congressional delegation has a couple of members so odious and/or stupid that probably no message would get through to them.

I was half-listening to this in the gym and briefly thought there were going to be some changes of votes, or at least one, which I hoped would be more Republicans signing on. But for the most part I don't blame the Repubs for voting "nay." According to the CNN natterers a few of them made some pretty bad statements re: Trump but begged off due to timing or some such.

If Mitch wants to stick a fork in Trump I have every reason to believe he'd go along with a post-inauguration impeachment. Removal would be moot but he's probably as eager as anyone destroy Trump's political ambitions. Hard to believe Trump could get re-elected in four years' time but anything's possible.

I tend to agree. However that agreement is sobered by History. 9 years after Hitler engaged in the famous Munich putsch and convicted of Treason, he was elected and became Germany's leader.

Skeptic Ginger · 13th January 2021, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Anyone else think that wasn't Trump?

His his defense lawyer building the case that Trump didn't mean to trigger an insurrection.

Skeptic Ginger · 13th January 2021, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And the style of the PR is so bland. Sure sign a hack wrote it.

On that note, the absence of the claim his speech was perfect is another tell.

Skeptic Ginger · 13th January 2021, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

McConnell has said he wouldn't agree to reconvening early

He said he would vote to convict.

He knows Pelosi is too smart for that. She won't present the Articles to the Senate until the Democrats control it.

Myriad · 13th January 2021, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

If Mitch wants to stick a fork in Trump I have every reason to believe he'd go along with a post-inauguration impeachment. Removal would be moot but he's probably as eager as anyone destroy Trump's political ambitions. Hard to believe Trump could get re-elected in four years' time but anything's possible.

I don't see how the Republicans can stop Trump from winning the 2024 Republican primaries, if he decided to run, even though he couldn't win the election. Which makes him an enormous and lasting liability for the rest of the party. Convicting him and making him ineligible to hold office again would partly solve that problem. So I would think the party leaders would want that to happen.

He could still back someone else, either in the Republican primaries or as a third party, but there's no evidence he's capable of actually backing and promoting someone besides himself.

slyjoe · 13th January 2021, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

I don't see how the Republicans can stop Trump from winning the 2024 Republican primaries, if he decided to run, even though he couldn't win the election. Which makes him an enormous and lasting liability for the rest of the party. Convicting him and making him ineligible to hold office again would partly solve that problem. So I would think the party leaders would want that to happen.

He could still back someone else, either in the Republican primaries or as a third party, but there's no evidence he's capable of actually backing and promoting someone besides himself.

This is true. But in politics, four years is a long time. His mental faculties are not going to improve. He may run, but it could be quite embarrassing.

13th January 2021, 01:48 PM	#641
AnonyMoose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2018 Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen Posts: 1,002	Watching the impeachment 2.0 charade on tv.... I've now come to the conclusion that the USA is no more. It is utterly, completely, and royally FUBAR'd from this day forward. Republicans are spending their 30-60 second time slots to play whataboutisms and partisan ad hominems. Yeah... The USA can't even set aside it's myopic political circus for 5 minutes to come together and agree that Jan 6th was an abomination on the very fabric of the country, brought on by the nonstop attack of its electoral processes by the very person who is supposed to be not only leading the country and protecting the people, but also protecting the very governance of said country that he's been trying to undermine since his loss in November. It was his claims of election fraud that fueled this mob to attack the capitol building. Period. Just that alone in and of itself is reason enough to impeach him and forbid him to ever hold office again, nevermind his riling up of the mob right before the march to the building. The simple fact of the matter is that this putz reneged on one of his most important job descriptions... to uphold the governance of the country by way of respecting the laws of the land. He failed bigly at one of the most easiest aspects of his job. And this basket of deplorables can't even be honest with themselves about it? FFS. Yup, so long as this republican party continues to exist, the USA is done for. Our great great grandchildren will be reading about this in their history books under the chapter titled: "The Country That Used To Be". Un-fricken-believable.
	__________________ "Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips

13th January 2021, 01:48 PM	#642
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,310	Originally Posted by alfaniner Good God, I really ******* hate Republicans. I hate 90% of them. And I someone who has voted Republican, and am probably a moderate conservative on many iseues.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

13th January 2021, 01:49 PM	#643
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 22,403	Originally Posted by dasmiller Would McConnell have any reason to fear a brief Pence presidency? I can't think of one, but maybe I'm missing something. I don't think he likes Pence enough to let him be president, even if just for a day. And, as others mentioned, Pence may pardon Trump.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

13th January 2021, 01:51 PM	#645
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,310	Originally Posted by AnonyMoose Watching the impeachment 2.0 charade on tv.... I've now come to the conclusion that the USA is no more. It is utterly, completely, and royally FUBAR'd from this day forward. Republicans are spending their 30-60 second time slots to play whataboutisms and partisan ad hominems. Yeah... The USA can't even set aside it's myopic political circus for 5 minutes to come together and agree that Jan 6th was an abomination on the very fabric of the country, brought on by the nonstop attack of its electoral processes by the very person who is supposed to be not only leading the country and protecting the people, but also protecting the very governance of said country that he's been trying to undermine since his loss in November. It was his claims of election fraud that fueled this mob to attack the capitol building. Period. Just that alone in and of itself is reason enough to impeach him and forbid him to ever hold office again, nevermind his riling up of the mob right before the march to the building. The simple fact of the matter is that this putz reneged on one of his most important job descriptions... to uphold the governance of the country by way of respecting the laws of the land. He failed bigly at one of the most easiest aspects of his job. And this basket of deplorables can't even be honest with themselves about it? FFS. Yup, so long as this republican party continues to exist, the USA is done for. Our great great grandchildren will be reading about this in their history books under the chapter titled: "The Country That Used To Be". Un-fricken-believable. Venting much.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

13th January 2021, 01:54 PM	#646
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,588	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Again the idea the Senators can just... like not vote is already stupid to me. I mean that's literally your job. The idea that they can't do it during an impeachment is worse. When you're a member of Congress and the decision is on this level, you shouldn't get to stay in the corner. Stupidity is not an uncommon affliction among Trump supporters.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

13th January 2021, 01:50 PM	#644
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,227	Originally Posted by Border Reiver At this stage I'm expecting, "Ladies and gentlemen of the Senate, the President was in no way inciting a disturbance in his speech of 6 January 2020. What he did was give veiled instructions to a crowd that had been prepared far enough in advance to prepare a mobile gallows. Since his words were obviously not intended to bring incite persons to action, but rather to give them the go ahead to carry out previously agreed to courses of action, his words do not meet the strict definition of the term and you must acquit." I like that. I hope someone does say that. But it doesn't matter. This isn't a court of law. I'm guessing for most senators it will come down to the politics of their next re-election bid.

13th January 2021, 01:56 PM	#647
Crossbow Seeking Honesty and Sanity Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 13,305	Originally Posted by Nova Land People keep saying that if the house votes to impeach Donald Trump then 67 votes are needed in the senate to convict him. For example, here's a quote from USA Today: That is not correct. It does not require at least 67 members to support conviction, and it would be good for people to stop repeating that inaccuracy. Ah, you may be thinking, but there are 100 senators, and the constitution says it takes a vote of 2/3 of the senators to convict, so that means it takes at least 67 senators. But that's a careless misreading of what the constitution actually says. The relevant passage is in article I, section 3 of the US constitution. Here it is: People keep saying we need 2/3 of the votes of the senate membership -- i.e. 67 votes -- to convict Trump. That's not what the constitution says. What the constitution says is that it takes 2/3 of the votes of those present. If every senator were present, that would be 67 out of 100, but it's a mistake to assume 100 senators will be present. In fact, there almost certainly won't be if the impeachment trial occurs immediately, as at present there are only 99 senators, David Perdue's term having expired and Jon Ossoff not having been confirmed yet. So if all 99 members were present it would take 66 votes to convict. But there is also no reason to assume all 99 members will be present. Very often the senate convenes and does business with less than all members present, which is why senate rules include a quorum requirement. The constitution addresses this in Article 1, Section 5: "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business." So a senate quorum is 50 at the moment, and will go back up to 51 after we return to having 100 senators. If fewer than 100 senators are present, then fewer than 67 votes are needed to convict. So instead of focusing on trying to win the votes of the Republicans who are determined not to vote for impeachment, I think it would be smarter for those who'd like to see Trump removed from office to focus on trying to convince as many of those Republican senators as possible to boycott the impeachment trial. We refuse to dignify these proceedings by taking any part in them, Republican senators who want to at least appear to support Donald Trump could say, as a way to try to stay on the good side of the pro-Trumpers while allowing them to avoid actually going on record as voting to acquit him. There are currently 99 senators, which includes 46 Democrats and 2 Democratic-voting indies. Let's assume all of them show up for the trial and all of them vote to convict, and consider how Republican attendance at the trial would affect things. (a) If every senator showed up it would require 66 votes to convict, so those working for impeachment would need to get 18 Republican votes. That could be very hard to get. (b) If 9 senators stayed home, those working for impeachment would need 60 out of 90 votes to convict. That means 12 Republican votes would be needed -- which would also probably be very hard to get... (c) But suppose 18 Republicans could be persuaded to stand firm in opposition to the impeachment by refusing to attend the impeachment trial. Now there'd be 81 senators present, so it would require only 54 votes to convict. That means if 6 Republicans vote to convict, Donald Trump is convicted and removed from office. And that seems like a number the impeachment side might actually be able to attain. Sorry, but I do not believe that you are entirely correct. While you are correct in what the US Constitution has to say about '2/3 of the Senators present'. But it is my understanding that according to the rules of the Senate, that unless a senator has some terribly important reason for being absent, then all 100 of the senators must be present when the Senate is going through a Presidential impeachment trial. As such, it will take at least 67 senators to convict Trump.
	__________________ I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency. On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool." A man's best friend is his dogma.

13th January 2021, 02:00 PM	#648
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,412	Originally Posted by Crossbow Sorry, but I do not believe that you are entirely correct. While you are correct in what the US Constitution has to say about '2/3 of the Senators present'. But it is my understanding that according to the rules of the Senate, that unless a senator has some terribly important reason for being absent, then all 100 of the senators must be present when the Senate is going through a Presidential impeachment trial. As such, it will take at least 67 senators to convict Trump. Well 66 as long as they are only at 99 senators.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

13th January 2021, 02:03 PM	#649
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by Crossbow Sorry, but I do not believe that you are entirely correct. While you are correct in what the US Constitution has to say about '2/3 of the Senators present'. But it is my understanding that according to the rules of the Senate, that unless a senator has some terribly important reason for being absent, then all 100 of the senators must be present when the Senate is going through a Presidential impeachment trial. As such, it will take at least 67 senators to convict Trump. This is like the rule against abstentions. They have to have a reason, but only need to state it upon being pressed by the Senate. In other words it can be ignored with a wink and a nod.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

13th January 2021, 02:08 PM	#650
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by William Parcher I don't know how it works. Is there going to be a vote today on impeachment? Will we know today if it happens, or tomorrow, or what? My understanding is the plan is there is to be a vote today. I doubt they will deviate from that plan.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

13th January 2021, 02:12 PM	#651
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,566	Voting just begun.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

13th January 2021, 02:14 PM	#652
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,566	9 Republicans have voted Aye, no Democrats have voted Nay. Waiting on the last 24 votes.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

13th January 2021, 02:15 PM	#653
AnonyMoose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2018 Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen Posts: 1,002	Originally Posted by dudalb Venting much. Yes. Yes I am. Sitting on your ass whining about an internet forum vent rather than getting on the phone and demanding some answers from your government because this is just a big ol' nothing burger much? Yes. Yes you are.
	__________________ "Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips

13th January 2021, 02:15 PM	#654
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,310	217 for Impeahcment. Trump is impeached for a second time. This had to be done, but I got a feeling that all hell is going break lose next week. This will inflame the MAGA Maniacs.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

13th January 2021, 02:16 PM	#655
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,566	227 Aye 194 Nay 11 Not Voting
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

13th January 2021, 02:16 PM	#656
Mr Fied Muse Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 543	Done, or should I say OVAH
Mr Fied Muse Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 543

13th January 2021, 02:16 PM	#657
Firestone Proud Award Award recipient Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,987	Now 10 Republican Yeas. As someone remarked, the most bipartisan presidential impeachment in US history.
	__________________ The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan

13th January 2021, 02:17 PM	#658
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,310	Originally Posted by AnonyMoose Yes. Yes I am. Sitting on your ass whining about an internet forum vent rather than getting on the phone and demanding some answers from your government because this is just a big ol' nothing burger much? Yes. Yes you are. https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1605...600,f8f8f8.jpg Oh i have been emailin my Representatives and Senators about this Probme is you attitude is so full of despair and fashionalbe angst that is helps nobody but the Trumpites.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

13th January 2021, 02:20 PM	#659
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,842	One week to go! Originally Posted by dudalb I hate 90% of them. And I someone who has voted Republican, and am probably a moderate conservative on many iseues. To be clear, I meant mostly the politicians.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

13th January 2021, 02:24 PM	#660
Mr Fied Muse Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 543	Originally Posted by dudalb I hate 90% of them. And I someone who has voted Republican, and am probably a moderate conservative on many iseues. TBF, in the rest of the world, the Democrats would be considered moderate conservatives.
Mr Fied Muse Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 543

13th January 2021, 02:32 PM	#661
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,320	Originally Posted by dudalb Venting much. Originally Posted by AnonyMoose Yes. Yes I am. Sitting on your ass whining about an internet forum vent rather than getting on the phone and demanding some answers from your government because this is just a big ol' nothing burger much? Yes. Yes you are. https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1605...600,f8f8f8.jpg It seems many Americans cannot see the forest for the trees. Watching from outside of your borders there is no question that your political system is one vast **** up. Trump's main accomplishment is to reveal just how bad it is and, surprisingly, many of you even now think there is something retrievable. It will not be salvaged for many years, if ever.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

13th January 2021, 02:35 PM	#662
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,768	Originally Posted by metacristi What Trump did is definitely not 'insurrection', his speech (widely produced as proof by some) cannot be used to claim that he intended to cause violence. The truth is rather that the massively 'progressive' infiltrated Democrats fear so much Trump that basically anything is useful to oust him. If Trump is cancelled using this 'progressive' patented method then anyone, no matter how rational, can be a victim in the future. Massively progressive infiltrated? Oh what demonic people we must be. Anything is useful to oust him? Damn if that were true he could have been impeached once a week for the last 4 years. Anyone can be a victim in the future? That is Trump's message today responding to news of his impeachment. It's how one diminishes a most serious charge, make it sound like it was a run of the mill act. No, just no.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 13th January 2021 at 02:39 PM.

13th January 2021, 02:39 PM	#663
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,842	Ironic that the number of YEAs for Impeachment is the same as the number as The PDJT's Electoral votes? (232) I have to admit I did a slow clap at the announcement of the result, but there was no joy in it.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

13th January 2021, 02:41 PM	#664
Pacal Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,156	Trump is Impeached 232 Congressmen voted to Impeach Trump for a second time. Sadly 197 Republicans said nay. 5 Congressmen abstained. I congratulate the 10 Republicans who voted for the Impeachment. Showing at least some real integrity. What was very pathetic was the "arguments" put forth to excuse not voting for Impeachment. Whatever!!

13th January 2021, 02:44 PM	#665
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,310	The Idiot freshman from Alabama, Barry Moore. who compared nasty tweets about Trump with the Storming of the Capitol has quite a interesting past: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_...ma_politician) In most states, those fraud accuastions would end a political career but not in Alabama.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

13th January 2021, 02:45 PM	#666
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by Firestone Now 10 Republican Yeas. As someone remarked, the most bipartisan presidential impeachment in US history. Yeah, that's only because Nixon resigned before the articles of impeachment were sent to the floor
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

13th January 2021, 02:52 PM	#667
AnonyMoose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2018 Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen Posts: 1,002	Originally Posted by dudalb Oh i have been emailin my Representatives and Senators about this Probme is you attitude is so full of despair and fashionalbe angst that is helps nobody but the Trumpites. "Fashionable angst"? Well, isn't that precious... you think concern for what I'm witnessing is "fashionable angst". There's a political party in your country that has no problem completely undermining the very fabric of your existence just so they don't have to admit out loud that they ****** up when they put this moron in charge. If that doesn't represent one of the most important issues that needs to be remedied immediately before it festers into an irreversible train wreck, then I don't know what does. So long as the rest of the country continues to turn a blind eye to this screaming elephant in the room pretending that it'll just go away after Biden has taken office, you will have no one to blame but yourselves for the possible bloodshed that's coming down the pipeline from the radicalized right and left. They're itching for it and you're pretending it's all just a silly hyperbolic extravaganza that will die off on its own. Are you really this short-sighted? Or are you just really this deep in denial?
	__________________ "Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips

13th January 2021, 02:53 PM	#668
Crossbow Seeking Honesty and Sanity Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 13,305	Once again, the "very stable genius" known as President Trump manages to get himself into the history books. I guess this yet another fine example of the "winning" that he promised to provide a few years ago.
	__________________ I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency. On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool." A man's best friend is his dogma.

13th January 2021, 03:06 PM	#669
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,814	Originally Posted by metacristi What Trump did is definitely not 'insurrection', his speech (widely produced as proof by some) cannot be used to claim that he intended to cause violence. The truth is rather that the massively 'progressive' infiltrated Democrats fear so much Trump that basically anything is useful to oust him. If Trump is cancelled using this 'progressive' patented method then anyone, no matter how rational, can be a victim in the future. Bollocks. I see you've branched out from Holocaust denial and general Jewish conspiracy mongering to apologism for Trump's pathetic attempt to illegally hold on to power, Trump lost, face reality.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

13th January 2021, 03:07 PM	#670
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,584	Originally Posted by Pacal What was very pathetic was the "arguments" put forth to excuse not voting for Impeachment. Whatever!! Even put in the best possible light, I can imagine that a politician might feel the need to tell lies because they think they have to reflect the will of their constituents, like a trial lawyer has to sing the praises and defend a murderous thug. But a politician doesn’t play the same role as a lawyer, and has to at times act on their conscience and not play the game. Either way, there is no excuse for not voting for impeachment.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,584	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

13th January 2021, 03:16 PM	#671
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,320	Originally Posted by AnonyMoose "Fashionable angst"? Well, isn't that precious... you think concern for what I'm witnessing is "fashionable angst". There's a political party in your country that has no problem completely undermining the very fabric of your existence just so they don't have to admit out loud that they ****** up when they put this moron in charge. If that doesn't represent one of the most important issues that needs to be remedied immediately before it festers into an irreversible train wreck, then I don't know what does. So long as the rest of the country continues to turn a blind eye to this screaming elephant in the room pretending that it'll just go away after Biden has taken office, you will have no one to blame but yourselves for the possible bloodshed that's coming down the pipeline from the radicalized right and left. They're itching for it and you're pretending it's all just a silly hyperbolic extravaganza that will die off on its own. Are you really this short-sighted? Or are you just really this deep in denial? Political parties are not the real problem. They don't actually believe most of what they say. They will change their positions to whatever is profitable at the time. The real long term problem is the many millions of violent racist morons who have crawled out of their holes due to Trump's encouragement and honestly believe the crap the politicians are feeding them. These true believers are going to be around causing serious problems for many years.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

13th January 2021, 03:18 PM	#672
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,768	Originally Posted by Darat Bad people! Not just any old bad, demonic.

13th January 2021, 03:23 PM	#673
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,227	My information is dated at best, but some time ago I heard someone in the political sphere rate the various means of contacting members of Congress in terms of impact. I forget the order of calls and emails, but old-fashioned snail mail was still the gold standard. A real letter was harder to put aside than a phone call or email and showed a greater commitment. I don't think there's any chance either of my senators would vote to acquit, and this state's congressional delegation has a couple of members so odious and/or stupid that probably no message would get through to them. I was half-listening to this in the gym and briefly thought there were going to be some changes of votes, or at least one, which I hoped would be more Republicans signing on. But for the most part I don't blame the Repubs for voting "nay." According to the CNN natterers a few of them made some pretty bad statements re: Trump but begged off due to timing or some such. If Mitch wants to stick a fork in Trump I have every reason to believe he'd go along with a post-inauguration impeachment. Removal would be moot but he's probably as eager as anyone destroy Trump's political ambitions. Hard to believe Trump could get re-elected in four years' time but anything's possible.

13th January 2021, 03:25 PM	#674
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,310	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Massively progressive infiltrated? Oh what demonic people we must be. Anything is useful to oust him? Damn if that were true he could have been impeached once a week for the last 4 years. Anyone can be a victim in the future? That is Trump's message today responding to news of his impeachment. It's how one diminishes a most serious charge, make it sound like it was a run of the mill act. No, just no. Hey, this is one of Metacristi's more rational posts...
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

13th January 2021, 03:31 PM	#675
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by Minoosh My information is dated at best, but some time ago I heard someone in the political sphere rate the various means of contacting members of Congress in terms of impact. I forget the order of calls and emails, but old-fashioned snail mail was still the gold standard. A real letter was harder to put aside than a phone call or email and showed a greater commitment. I don't think there's any chance either of my senators would vote to acquit, and this state's congressional delegation has a couple of members so odious and/or stupid that probably no message would get through to them. I was half-listening to this in the gym and briefly thought there were going to be some changes of votes, or at least one, which I hoped would be more Republicans signing on. But for the most part I don't blame the Repubs for voting "nay." According to the CNN natterers a few of them made some pretty bad statements re: Trump but begged off due to timing or some such. If Mitch wants to stick a fork in Trump I have every reason to believe he'd go along with a post-inauguration impeachment. Removal would be moot but he's probably as eager as anyone destroy Trump's political ambitions. Hard to believe Trump could get re-elected in four years' time but anything's possible. I tend to agree. However that agreement is sobered by History. 9 years after Hitler engaged in the famous Munich putsch and convicted of Treason, he was elected and became Germany's leader.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .