[Split Thread] A second impeachment - Page 25

Shalamar · 16th January 2021, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Also in the speech before the riot he used the word “fight” 20 times. And prior to that he asked followers to join the “Trump Army” to fight the “liberal mob” and to wear a camo MAGA cap to identify themselves as members of that “Army” - for $35 of course, always the scammer.

I’m pretty sure the Impeachment Trial will attempt to present the totality of the pattern of incitement leading up to 1/6 for months - not just cherry pick a single admonition to “act peacefully”.

'Stop the Steal'. What did he expect his followers to do? Ask nicely for the election results to be overturned?

angrysoba · 16th January 2021, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides

First-amendment expert Ken White discusses the first amendment implications of the President's speech, starting roughly around the 20 minute mark.
EDT
TL/DL Ken White thinks a legal case on incitement is uphill but not impossible, especially considering the president's behavior. My opinion is that when Mr. White speaks on the first amendments, the rest of us should listen intently and take careful notes.

Yep! Thanks to Squeeegeee Beckenheim I listened to that earlier and can definitely second the recommendation.

Regnad Kcin · 16th January 2021, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Shalamar

'Stop the Steal'. What did he expect his followers to do? Ask nicely for the election results to be overturned?

Any chance it’s misspelled and people are actually hoping to prevent another Zoolander movie?

Stacyhs · 16th January 2021, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Well done for “daring” to criticize Islam. Let me pin the “Medal for Exceptional Daring in Online Keyboard Warrior skills” upon your avatar. I myself am also exceptionally daring which is why I also criticize Islam. I think most atheists do so there are a lot of medals to go round.

Now, Dershowitz, free speech.... I am not a lawyer but if Dershy is saying that Twitter is suppressing first amendment rights then frankly he shouldn’t be a lawyer either or rather you shouldn’t pay for his services.

Oooooh...ooooooooh......I also dare to criticize Islam. And other religions as an atheist. Can I have a medal, too?

angrysoba · 16th January 2021, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Oooooh...ooooooooh......I also dare to criticize Islam. And other religions as an atheist. Can I have a medal, too?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...39da11bdc9.jpg

Sure, but only if you promise you have been very very daring on ISF! Daring like metachristi who is so daring with his views.

Firestone · 17th January 2021, 04:27 AM

Trump apparently (allegedly?) has a plan for his Senate trial:

Quote:

President Donald Trump's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani tells ABC News he's working as part of the president's defense team in his upcoming second impeachment trial -- and that he's prepared to argue that the president's claims of widespread voter fraud did not constitute incitement to violence because the widely-debunked claims are true.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/giuliani-w...ry?id=75302032

It's e⁵ D-chess, at least: prove that the fraud claims are true after the usurper Biden is in the White House. Pure genius.

catsmate · 17th January 2021, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by No Other

You have a habit of setting up your own straw man and then knock down that straw man with your own made up comments.

I suggest you avoid using terms like "straw man" until you learn what they actually mean.

catsmate · 17th January 2021, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by metacristi

As for Trump's being punished via being barred from holding office in the future that's especially for his overall attitude regarding democracy, especially after the fact that his legal attempts to change the result of the election were rejected by the courts.

Is there supposed to be an actual idea buried in this?

Originally Posted by metacristi

The Congress can definitely do that after Biden takes office, be it entirely as a political decision, there is no need to resort to all sort of lies, half truths, 'incitation to insurrection' and tortuous reinterpretations of what the First Amendment protect (restraining free speech).

Your "First Amendment" drivel (and you might want to learn what the actual First amendment to the US Constitution says, not your imagined version of it

) is irrelevant to the fact that your Molester-in-Chief incited a mob of his idiotic supporters to insurrection.

catsmate · 17th January 2021, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by metacristi

And yet the truth is that even someone rational from the Moon would easily recognize the poor intellectual standards on this forum.

Indeed, but only from certain posters...

Captain_Swoop · 17th January 2021, 05:30 AM

J. Hogan Gidley tweets

@JHoganGidley

Statement On President Trump’s Impeachment Defense Team:

President Trump has not yet made a determination as to which lawyer or law firm will represent him for the disgraceful attack on our Constitution and democracy, known as the “impeachment hoax.” We will keep you informed.

dirtywick · 17th January 2021, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

J. Hogan Gidley tweets

@JHoganGidley

Statement On President Trump’s Impeachment Defense Team:

President Trump has not yet made a determination as to which lawyer or law firm will represent him for the disgraceful attack on our Constitution and democracy, known as the “impeachment hoax.” We will keep you informed.

should have maybe re-read that one lol

The Great Zaganza · 17th January 2021, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

It’s like when he said, “Will no one rid me of this turbulent Vice President?", he was only asking a question!

nice one.

Darat · 17th January 2021, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

J. Hogan Gidley tweets

@JHoganGidley

Statement On President Trump’s Impeachment Defense Team:

President Trump has not yet found ~~made~~ a ~~determination as to which~~ lawyer or law firm that will represent him for the disgraceful attack on our Constitution and democracy, known as the “impeachment hoax.” We will keep you informed.

Fixed that for him

Paul2 · 17th January 2021, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Firestone

Trump apparently (allegedly?) has a plan for his Senate trial:

Quote:

President Donald Trump's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani tells ABC News he's working as part of the president's defense team in his upcoming second impeachment trial -- and that he's prepared to argue that the president's claims of widespread voter fraud did not constitute incitement to violence because the widely-debunked claims are true.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/giuliani-w...ry?id=75302032

It's e⁵ D-chess, at least: prove that the fraud claims are true after the usurper Biden is in the White House. Pure genius.

Ya gotta admit they are indefatigable.

Meadmaker · 17th January 2021, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Firestone

Trump apparently (allegedly?) has a plan for his Senate trial:

Quote:

he's prepared to argue that the president's claims of widespread voter fraud did not constitute incitement to violence because the widely-debunked claims are true.

It's e⁵ D-chess, at least: prove that the fraud claims are true after the usurper Biden is in the White House. Pure genius.

Awesome. The Donald will have the opportunity to present, via his lawyer, all of that evidence to the widest audience possible. The Senate doesn't have to get all wrapped up in procedural stuff, and the American people will get to see it in their news feeds, with lots of commentary.

I can't think of a better way to expose the fraud.

dasmiller · 17th January 2021, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I can't think of a better way to expose the fraud.

Dude, that fraud wouldn't be any more exposed if he were -

oh, no . . . .

must . . . gouge . . . out . . . mind's . . . eye . . .

pgwenthold · 17th January 2021, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by turingtest

Context- that's the word you need to learn here. You're criticizing Congress for impeaching on a narrow basis that is not the basis they've actually impeached him on.

I've even seen lawyers making that same mistake, with the "oh the speech wasn't so bad" claim. Folks like Popehat and Legal Eagle.

They don't respond when I ask why they are restricting their analysis to only that speech.

"The election was stolen, we need to fight it, everyone is traitors and we need to do something about it, so let's march on the Capitol. Oh, and be peaceful."

Right. As I have pointed out, there is a reason they came prepared with weapons, bombs, zip tie handcuffs and riot gear. And it wasn't because they were planning a sit-in on the Mall.

What was that reason? Ask them...they'll tell you. "The President sent me."

pgwenthold · 17th January 2021, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides

First-amendment expert Ken White discusses the first amendment implications of the President's speech, starting roughly around the 20 minute mark.
EDT
TL/DL Ken White thinks a legal case on incitement is uphill but not impossible, especially considering the president's behavior. My opinion is that when Mr. White speaks on the first amendments, the rest of us should listen intently and take careful notes.

Why does Ken focus on the content of Trump's speech, and not actually on the totality of his actions and statements since Nov 3 (or even before)?

varwoche · 17th January 2021, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by metacristi

What Trump did is definitely not 'insurrection', his speech (widely produced as proof by some) cannot be used to claim that he intended to cause violence. The truth is rather that the massively 'progressive' infiltrated Democrats fear so much Trump that basically anything is useful to oust him. If Trump is cancelled using this 'progressive' patented method then anyone, no matter how rational, can be a victim in the future.

This is blatant bs.

If I were to array the unprecedented ways that Trump has been called out by his own party, including his own appointees, it would exceed maximum post length.

Why do people foist easily debunkable bs like this?

Pacal · 17th January 2021, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

I've even seen lawyers making that same mistake, with the "oh the speech wasn't so bad" claim. Folks like Popehat and Legal Eagle.

They don't respond when I ask why they are restricting their analysis to only that speech.

"The election was stolen, we need to fight it, everyone is traitors and we need to do something about it, so let's march on the Capitol. Oh, and be peaceful."

Right. As I have pointed out, there is a reason they came prepared with weapons, bombs, zip tie handcuffs and riot gear. And it wasn't because they were planning a sit-in on the Mall.

What was that reason? Ask them...they'll tell you. "The President sent me."

I've seen Trump's speech and I have read it. In my opinion, especially considering the context, it was an incitement to violence. The speech itself, despite it being a disaster has oratory, is actually fairly but not convincingly ambiguous. It contains a great many words and phrases designed to rile people up and make them angry and then it has what amount to token phrases and words about being peaceful. It is very much a wink, wink hint, hint sort of speech. What Trump was trying to do was preserve plausible deniability by mundane phrases and words about being "peaceful" while wink, wink, hint, hinting about violence.

The peaceful crap was mere pro forma to preserve plausible deniability which the audience quite properly disregarded has what Trump really wanted to happen. Trump and his acolytes in the media are using that to throw rioters under the bus and deny Trump responsibility.

Oh and Trump's behavior while the mob was storming the capital and the very long delay in getting help to save Congressmen and Senators etc., from assault and possible death is the clearest indication that what happened is exactly what he wanted to happen. There are also indications that Trump appointees and others deliberately weakened efforts to provide security before the attack. To me it looks very much like Trump was indeed trying to incite an attack.

JoeMorgue · 17th January 2021, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

Why do people foist easily debunkable bs like this?

Because the know the time we take discussing is will waste time.

"Being wrong all the time about everything, to the point that correcting you enough would just get us back on topic would take too long" is an amazingly effective troll technique.

Like I've said for years as the trolls have moved more and more to meta-argument trolling, if someone says "2+2=5" you correct their math. If someone says "A potato is a fruit" you correct their definition. If someone says "2+2=a potato" they've successfully broken discourse.

varwoche · 17th January 2021, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

I've even seen lawyers making that same mistake, with the "oh the speech wasn't so bad" claim. Folks like Popehat and Legal Eagle.

They don't respond when I ask why they are restricting their analysis to only that speech.

"The election was stolen, we need to fight it, everyone is traitors and we need to do something about it, so let's march on the Capitol. Oh, and be peaceful."

Right. As I have pointed out, there is a reason they came prepared with weapons, bombs, zip tie handcuffs and riot gear. And it wasn't because they were planning a sit-in on the Mall.

What was that reason? Ask them...they'll tell you. "The President sent me."

I like to think that the encouragement Trump offered the nutjobs in Michigan, aka the Wolverine Watchmen, would be admissible.

Captain_Swoop · 17th January 2021, 11:57 AM

Lindsey Graham tweets

@LindseyGrahamSC
My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer.

The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise.

(letter in link)

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817

Thermal · 17th January 2021, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Lindsey Graham tweets

@LindseyGrahamSC
My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer.

The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise.

(letter in link)

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817

We'll have to remember that if the good Mr Graham gets ghetto raped by a bunch of guys wearing dead raccoons, that he wouldn't want them prosecuted when caught. Healing, you see.

carlosy · 17th January 2021, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Lindsey Graham tweets

@LindseyGrahamSC
My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer.

The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise.

(letter in link)

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817

https://twitter.com/LorcaDamon/statu...43571992834049

Garrison · 17th January 2021, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Lindsey Graham tweets

@LindseyGrahamSC
My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer.

The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise.

(letter in link)

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817

What does healing even mean here? Placating the lunatic fringe who cheered on the attack on the capitol? Agreeing with all the trumpista morons who think the election was stolen that maybe they have a point?

Garrison · 17th January 2021, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by carlosy

https://i.imgur.com/JzpxKpf.jpg

https://twitter.com/LorcaDamon/statu...43571992834049

That pretty much nails it, the Republicans are basically saying, 'why are you forcing me to hit you?'

Norman Alexander · 17th January 2021, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Pacal

I've seen Trump's speech and I have read it. In my opinion, especially considering the context, it was an incitement to violence. The speech itself, despite it being a disaster has oratory, is actually fairly but not convincingly ambiguous. It contains a great many words and phrases designed to rile people up and make them angry and then it has what amount to token phrases and words about being peaceful. It is very much a wink, wink hint, hint sort of speech. What Trump was trying to do was preserve plausible deniability by mundane phrases and words about being "peaceful" while wink, wink, hint, hinting about violence.

The peaceful crap was mere pro forma to preserve plausible deniability which the audience quite properly disregarded has what Trump really wanted to happen. Trump and his acolytes in the media are using that to throw rioters under the bus and deny Trump responsibility.

Oh and Trump's behavior while the mob was storming the capital and the very long delay in getting help to save Congressmen and Senators etc., from assault and possible death is the clearest indication that what happened is exactly what he wanted to happen. There are also indications that Trump appointees and others deliberately weakened efforts to provide security before the attack. To me it looks very much like Trump was indeed trying to incite an attack.

It's a classic movie mobster speech: Nice Capitol you got there. It would be a shame if a crowd of righteous patriots overran it to reverse imaginary grievances...

Aridas · 17th January 2021, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"Being wrong all the time about everything, to the point that correcting you enough would just get us back on topic would take too long" is an amazingly effective troll technique.

"And if you don't correct it, it's validating the truth of the BS."

turingtest · 17th January 2021, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Lindsey Graham tweets

@LindseyGrahamSC
My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer.

The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise.

(letter in link)

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817

That's beautiful. The guy who has said that the people who took part in the riot should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law doesn't think that the guy who is accused of inciting the riot should even be put on trial. I'm sure that it will fully heal the nation to see that there really are two types of justice.

DevilsAdvocate · 17th January 2021, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Lindsey Graham tweets

@LindseyGrahamSC
My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer.

The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise.

(letter in link)

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817

Or...the Senate should immediately vote to convict and bar him from holding Federal office once it is received in the Senate so that justice is not delayed and healing can then begin...after he is prosecuted and convicted for Federal crimes, of course. Wouldn't that be nice?

dudalb · 17th January 2021, 02:44 PM

Every time you think Lindsay Graham cannot go any lower in his butt kissing of Trump, he finds a way to surprise you.

angrysoba · 17th January 2021, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Lindsey Graham tweets

@LindseyGrahamSC
My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer.

The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise.

(letter in link)

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817

That would be convenient. “Sure my guys committed a bit of a high crime and misdemeanor. Let’s forget all about it and move on. Let’s all be the bigger people in all this.”

HHellpop · 17th January 2021, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Lindsey Graham tweets

@LindseyGrahamSC
My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer.

The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise.

(letter in link)

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817

And unbelievably, he appears to finally grow a small pair, but then uses them to call Biden "weak!"

"You talk about unifying the country, if you do not stand up against the impeachment of President Trump after he leaves office, you're an incredibly weak figure in American history," Graham said.
Sen. Graham urges Biden to 'stand down' on 'Scarlet Letter' Trump impeachment

Wow.... just ... wow. What was that you said about using your words against you, scumbag? I didn't realize you meant every word out of your mouth.

dirtywick · 17th January 2021, 03:10 PM

not that i'd advocate violence of any kind, but lindsey graham needs a good punch to the gut. just one

Minoosh · 17th January 2021, 03:12 PM

Well, how far are the Republicans willing to go to promote healing? Will they unanimously denounce fraud allegations and enter an agreement in the record that the allegations were completely baseless? Will Ted Cruz et al. stipulate that their calls for delay were an attempt to subvert democracy (and in some cases appeared designed to inflame the mob that rolled through Jan. 6?)

Honestly I don't know why Graham is even bothering. I guess so he can tell Trump he's done everything he can. But really, who the hell cares what Lindsey Graham says? What does he have to offer anyone?

Norman Alexander · 17th January 2021, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Every time you think Lindsay Graham cannot go any lower in his butt kissing of Trump, he finds a way to surprise you.

The Trump team have something on Graham, surely. And it must be awful for him to be such a pathetic mouthpiece. Does it involve small children? Hamsters and gaffer tape?

bruto · 17th January 2021, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Every time you think Lindsay Graham cannot go any lower in his butt kissing of Trump, he finds a way to surprise you.

I think he's gone as far down as he can and has begun tunneling.

HHellpop · 17th January 2021, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

I think he's gone as far down as he can and has begun tunneling.

Eww...

Stacyhs · 17th January 2021, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Every time you think Lindsay Graham cannot go any lower in his butt kissing of Trump, he finds a way to surprise you.

Lindsey Graham never surprises me anymore.

16th January 2021, 06:40 PM	#961
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Somewhere Else Posts: 4,966	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B Also in the speech before the riot he used the word “fight” 20 times. And prior to that he asked followers to join the “Trump Army” to fight the “liberal mob” and to wear a camo MAGA cap to identify themselves as members of that “Army” - for $35 of course, always the scammer. I’m pretty sure the Impeachment Trial will attempt to present the totality of the pattern of incitement leading up to 1/6 for months - not just cherry pick a single admonition to “act peacefully”. 'Stop the Steal'. What did he expect his followers to do? Ask nicely for the election results to be overturned?
	__________________ "The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."

16th January 2021, 06:49 PM	#962
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,395	Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides First-amendment expert Ken White discusses the first amendment implications of the President's speech, starting roughly around the 20 minute mark. EDT TL/DL Ken White thinks a legal case on incitement is uphill but not impossible, especially considering the president's behavior. My opinion is that when Mr. White speaks on the first amendments, the rest of us should listen intently and take careful notes. Yep! Thanks to Squeeegeee Beckenheim I listened to that earlier and can definitely second the recommendation.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

16th January 2021, 06:56 PM	#963
Regnad Kcin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York Posts: 10,240	Originally Posted by Shalamar 'Stop the Steal'. What did he expect his followers to do? Ask nicely for the election results to be overturned? Any chance it’s misspelled and people are actually hoping to prevent another Zoolander movie?
	__________________ My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.

16th January 2021, 07:25 PM	#965
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,395	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Oooooh...ooooooooh......I also dare to criticize Islam. And other religions as an atheist. Can I have a medal, too? http://www.internationalskeptics.com...39da11bdc9.jpg Sure, but only if you promise you have been very very daring on ISF! Daring like metachristi who is so daring with his views.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

17th January 2021, 04:27 AM	#966
Firestone Proud Award Award recipient Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,997	Trump apparently (allegedly?) has a plan for his Senate trial: Quote: President Donald Trump's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani tells ABC News he's working as part of the president's defense team in his upcoming second impeachment trial -- and that he's prepared to argue that the president's claims of widespread voter fraud did not constitute incitement to violence because the widely-debunked claims are true. https://abcnews.go.com/US/giuliani-w...ry?id=75302032 It's e⁵ D-chess, at least: prove that the fraud claims are true after the usurper Biden is in the White House. Pure genius.
	__________________ The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan

16th January 2021, 07:15 PM	#964
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,021	Originally Posted by angrysoba Well done for “daring” to criticize Islam. Let me pin the “Medal for Exceptional Daring in Online Keyboard Warrior skills” upon your avatar. I myself am also exceptionally daring which is why I also criticize Islam. I think most atheists do so there are a lot of medals to go round. Now, Dershowitz, free speech.... I am not a lawyer but if Dershy is saying that Twitter is suppressing first amendment rights then frankly he shouldn’t be a lawyer either or rather you shouldn’t pay for his services. Oooooh...ooooooooh......I also dare to criticize Islam. And other religions as an atheist. Can I have a medal, too?

17th January 2021, 04:45 AM	#967
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,872	Originally Posted by No Other You have a habit of setting up your own straw man and then knock down that straw man with your own made up comments. I suggest you avoid using terms like "straw man" until you learn what they actually mean.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

17th January 2021, 04:49 AM	#968
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,872	Originally Posted by metacristi As for Trump's being punished via being barred from holding office in the future that's especially for his overall attitude regarding democracy, especially after the fact that his legal attempts to change the result of the election were rejected by the courts. Is there supposed to be an actual idea buried in this? Originally Posted by metacristi The Congress can definitely do that after Biden takes office, be it entirely as a political decision, there is no need to resort to all sort of lies, half truths, 'incitation to insurrection' and tortuous reinterpretations of what the First Amendment protect (restraining free speech). Your "First Amendment" drivel (and you might want to learn what the actual First amendment to the US Constitution says, not your imagined version of it ) is irrelevant to the fact that your Molester-in-Chief incited a mob of his idiotic supporters to insurrection.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

17th January 2021, 04:50 AM	#969
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,872	Originally Posted by metacristi And yet the truth is that even someone rational from the Moon would easily recognize the poor intellectual standards on this forum. Indeed, but only from certain posters...
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

17th January 2021, 05:30 AM	#970
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,922	J. Hogan Gidley tweets @JHoganGidley Statement On President Trump’s Impeachment Defense Team: President Trump has not yet made a determination as to which lawyer or law firm will represent him for the disgraceful attack on our Constitution and democracy, known as the “impeachment hoax.” We will keep you informed.

17th January 2021, 06:02 AM	#971
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,130	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop J. Hogan Gidley tweets @JHoganGidley Statement On President Trump’s Impeachment Defense Team: President Trump has not yet made a determination as to which lawyer or law firm will represent him for the disgraceful attack on our Constitution and democracy, known as the “impeachment hoax.” We will keep you informed. should have maybe re-read that one lol
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,130

17th January 2021, 06:19 AM	#972
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,681	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B It’s like when he said, “Will no one rid me of this turbulent Vice President?", he was only asking a question! nice one.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

17th January 2021, 06:56 AM	#973
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,074	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop J. Hogan Gidley tweets @JHoganGidley Statement On President Trump’s Impeachment Defense Team: President Trump has not yet found ~~made~~ a ~~determination as to which~~ lawyer or law firm that will represent him for the disgraceful attack on our Constitution and democracy, known as the “impeachment hoax.” We will keep you informed. Fixed that for him
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

17th January 2021, 09:26 AM	#974
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,591	Originally Posted by Firestone Trump apparently (allegedly?) has a plan for his Senate trial: Quote: President Donald Trump's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani tells ABC News he's working as part of the president's defense team in his upcoming second impeachment trial -- and that he's prepared to argue that the president's claims of widespread voter fraud did not constitute incitement to violence because the widely-debunked claims are true. https://abcnews.go.com/US/giuliani-w...ry?id=75302032 It's e⁵ D-chess, at least: prove that the fraud claims are true after the usurper Biden is in the White House. Pure genius. Ya gotta admit they are indefatigable.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,591	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

17th January 2021, 10:05 AM	#975
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,276	Originally Posted by Firestone Trump apparently (allegedly?) has a plan for his Senate trial: Quote: he's prepared to argue that the president's claims of widespread voter fraud did not constitute incitement to violence because the widely-debunked claims are true. It's e⁵ D-chess, at least: prove that the fraud claims are true after the usurper Biden is in the White House. Pure genius. Awesome. The Donald will have the opportunity to present, via his lawyer, all of that evidence to the widest audience possible. The Senate doesn't have to get all wrapped up in procedural stuff, and the American people will get to see it in their news feeds, with lots of commentary. I can't think of a better way to expose the fraud. I hope you all see what I did there.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

17th January 2021, 10:19 AM	#976
dasmiller Just the right amount of cowbell Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon Posts: 6,379	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I can't think of a better way to expose the fraud. Dude, that fraud wouldn't be any more exposed if he were - oh, no . . . . must . . . gouge . . . out . . . mind's . . . eye . . .
	__________________ "In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt

17th January 2021, 10:33 AM	#977
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,133	Originally Posted by turingtest Context- that's the word you need to learn here. You're criticizing Congress for impeaching on a narrow basis that is not the basis they've actually impeached him on. I've even seen lawyers making that same mistake, with the "oh the speech wasn't so bad" claim. Folks like Popehat and Legal Eagle. They don't respond when I ask why they are restricting their analysis to only that speech. "The election was stolen, we need to fight it, everyone is traitors and we need to do something about it, so let's march on the Capitol. Oh, and be peaceful." Right. As I have pointed out, there is a reason they came prepared with weapons, bombs, zip tie handcuffs and riot gear. And it wasn't because they were planning a sit-in on the Mall. What was that reason? Ask them...they'll tell you. "The President sent me."
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

17th January 2021, 10:40 AM	#978
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,133	Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides First-amendment expert Ken White discusses the first amendment implications of the President's speech, starting roughly around the 20 minute mark. EDT TL/DL Ken White thinks a legal case on incitement is uphill but not impossible, especially considering the president's behavior. My opinion is that when Mr. White speaks on the first amendments, the rest of us should listen intently and take careful notes. Why does Ken focus on the content of Trump's speech, and not actually on the totality of his actions and statements since Nov 3 (or even before)?
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

17th January 2021, 11:14 AM	#979
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,436	Originally Posted by metacristi What Trump did is definitely not 'insurrection', his speech (widely produced as proof by some) cannot be used to claim that he intended to cause violence. The truth is rather that the massively 'progressive' infiltrated Democrats fear so much Trump that basically anything is useful to oust him. If Trump is cancelled using this 'progressive' patented method then anyone, no matter how rational, can be a victim in the future. This is blatant bs. If I were to array the unprecedented ways that Trump has been called out by his own party, including his own appointees, it would exceed maximum post length. Why do people foist easily debunkable bs like this?
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

17th January 2021, 11:33 AM	#980
Pacal Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,164	Originally Posted by pgwenthold I've even seen lawyers making that same mistake, with the "oh the speech wasn't so bad" claim. Folks like Popehat and Legal Eagle. They don't respond when I ask why they are restricting their analysis to only that speech. "The election was stolen, we need to fight it, everyone is traitors and we need to do something about it, so let's march on the Capitol. Oh, and be peaceful." Right. As I have pointed out, there is a reason they came prepared with weapons, bombs, zip tie handcuffs and riot gear. And it wasn't because they were planning a sit-in on the Mall. What was that reason? Ask them...they'll tell you. "The President sent me." I've seen Trump's speech and I have read it. In my opinion, especially considering the context, it was an incitement to violence. The speech itself, despite it being a disaster has oratory, is actually fairly but not convincingly ambiguous. It contains a great many words and phrases designed to rile people up and make them angry and then it has what amount to token phrases and words about being peaceful. It is very much a wink, wink hint, hint sort of speech. What Trump was trying to do was preserve plausible deniability by mundane phrases and words about being "peaceful" while wink, wink, hint, hinting about violence. The peaceful crap was mere pro forma to preserve plausible deniability which the audience quite properly disregarded has what Trump really wanted to happen. Trump and his acolytes in the media are using that to throw rioters under the bus and deny Trump responsibility. Oh and Trump's behavior while the mob was storming the capital and the very long delay in getting help to save Congressmen and Senators etc., from assault and possible death is the clearest indication that what happened is exactly what he wanted to happen. There are also indications that Trump appointees and others deliberately weakened efforts to provide security before the attack. To me it looks very much like Trump was indeed trying to incite an attack.
	Last edited by Pacal; 17th January 2021 at 11:43 AM.

17th January 2021, 11:42 AM	#981
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,692	Originally Posted by varwoche Why do people foist easily debunkable bs like this? Because the know the time we take discussing is will waste time. "Being wrong all the time about everything, to the point that correcting you enough would just get us back on topic would take too long" is an amazingly effective troll technique. Like I've said for years as the trolls have moved more and more to meta-argument trolling, if someone says "2+2=5" you correct their math. If someone says "A potato is a fruit" you correct their definition. If someone says "2+2=a potato" they've successfully broken discourse.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

17th January 2021, 11:46 AM	#982
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,436	Originally Posted by pgwenthold I've even seen lawyers making that same mistake, with the "oh the speech wasn't so bad" claim. Folks like Popehat and Legal Eagle. They don't respond when I ask why they are restricting their analysis to only that speech. "The election was stolen, we need to fight it, everyone is traitors and we need to do something about it, so let's march on the Capitol. Oh, and be peaceful." Right. As I have pointed out, there is a reason they came prepared with weapons, bombs, zip tie handcuffs and riot gear. And it wasn't because they were planning a sit-in on the Mall. What was that reason? Ask them...they'll tell you. "The President sent me." I like to think that the encouragement Trump offered the nutjobs in Michigan, aka the Wolverine Watchmen, would be admissible.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

17th January 2021, 11:57 AM	#983
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,922	Lindsey Graham tweets @LindseyGrahamSC My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer. The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise. (letter in link) https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817

17th January 2021, 12:04 PM	#984
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,527	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Lindsey Graham tweets @LindseyGrahamSC My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer. The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise. (letter in link) https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817 We'll have to remember that if the good Mr Graham gets ghetto raped by a bunch of guys wearing dead raccoons, that he wouldn't want them prosecuted when caught. Healing, you see.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

17th January 2021, 12:11 PM	#985
carlosy Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 393	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Lindsey Graham tweets @LindseyGrahamSC My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer. The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise. (letter in link) https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817 https://twitter.com/LorcaDamon/statu...43571992834049
carlosy Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 393

17th January 2021, 12:14 PM	#986
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,531	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Lindsey Graham tweets @LindseyGrahamSC My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer. The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise. (letter in link) https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817 What does healing even mean here? Placating the lunatic fringe who cheered on the attack on the capitol? Agreeing with all the trumpista morons who think the election was stolen that maybe they have a point?
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

17th January 2021, 12:16 PM	#987
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,531	Originally Posted by carlosy https://i.imgur.com/JzpxKpf.jpg https://twitter.com/LorcaDamon/statu...43571992834049 That pretty much nails it, the Republicans are basically saying, 'why are you forcing me to hit you?'
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

17th January 2021, 12:54 PM	#988
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,800	Originally Posted by Pacal I've seen Trump's speech and I have read it. In my opinion, especially considering the context, it was an incitement to violence. The speech itself, despite it being a disaster has oratory, is actually fairly but not convincingly ambiguous. It contains a great many words and phrases designed to rile people up and make them angry and then it has what amount to token phrases and words about being peaceful. It is very much a wink, wink hint, hint sort of speech. What Trump was trying to do was preserve plausible deniability by mundane phrases and words about being "peaceful" while wink, wink, hint, hinting about violence. The peaceful crap was mere pro forma to preserve plausible deniability which the audience quite properly disregarded has what Trump really wanted to happen. Trump and his acolytes in the media are using that to throw rioters under the bus and deny Trump responsibility. Oh and Trump's behavior while the mob was storming the capital and the very long delay in getting help to save Congressmen and Senators etc., from assault and possible death is the clearest indication that what happened is exactly what he wanted to happen. There are also indications that Trump appointees and others deliberately weakened efforts to provide security before the attack. To me it looks very much like Trump was indeed trying to incite an attack. It's a classic movie mobster speech: Nice Capitol you got there. It would be a shame if a crowd of righteous patriots overran it to reverse imaginary grievances...
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th January 2021, 01:10 PM	#989
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,461	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue "Being wrong all the time about everything, to the point that correcting you enough would just get us back on topic would take too long" is an amazingly effective troll technique. "And if you don't correct it, it's validating the truth of the BS."
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

17th January 2021, 02:27 PM	#990
turingtest Mistral, mistral wind... Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi Posts: 4,678	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Lindsey Graham tweets @LindseyGrahamSC My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer. The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise. (letter in link) https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817 That's beautiful. The guy who has said that the people who took part in the riot should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law doesn't think that the guy who is accused of inciting the riot should even be put on trial. I'm sure that it will fully heal the nation to see that there really are two types of justice.
	__________________ I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King

17th January 2021, 02:40 PM	#991
DevilsAdvocate Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,449	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Lindsey Graham tweets @LindseyGrahamSC My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer. The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise. (letter in link) https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817 Or...the Senate should immediately vote to convict and bar him from holding Federal office once it is received in the Senate so that justice is not delayed and healing can then begin...after he is prosecuted and convicted for Federal crimes, of course. Wouldn't that be nice?
	__________________ I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley

17th January 2021, 02:44 PM	#992
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Every time you think Lindsay Graham cannot go any lower in his butt kissing of Trump, he finds a way to surprise you.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

17th January 2021, 03:03 PM	#993
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,395	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Lindsey Graham tweets @LindseyGrahamSC My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer. The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise. (letter in link) https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817 That would be convenient. “Sure my guys committed a bit of a high crime and misdemeanor. Let’s forget all about it and move on. Let’s all be the bigger people in all this.”
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

17th January 2021, 03:08 PM	#994
HHellpop Reluctant Galactic Assassin Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ylum Posts: 361	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Lindsey Graham tweets @LindseyGrahamSC My letter to Democratic Leader Schumer. The Senate should vote to dismiss the article of impeachment once it is received in the Senate. We will be delaying indefinitely, if not forever, the healing of this great Nation if we do otherwise. (letter in link) https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...36851259682817 And unbelievably, he appears to finally grow a small pair, but then uses them to call Biden "weak!" "You talk about unifying the country, if you do not stand up against the impeachment of President Trump after he leaves office, you're an incredibly weak figure in American history," Graham said. Sen. Graham urges Biden to 'stand down' on 'Scarlet Letter' Trump impeachment Wow.... just ... wow. What was that you said about using your words against you, scumbag? I didn't realize you meant every word out of your mouth.
	__________________ "Vootie!" - Mezzrow

17th January 2021, 03:10 PM	#995
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,130	not that i'd advocate violence of any kind, but lindsey graham needs a good punch to the gut. just one
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,130