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Old 25th April 2007, 03:45 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by Lyte Trip View Post
Wrong.

We have not dismissed ANYONE let alone 100's of others.

There is not a single witness in the entire investigative body of evidence that specifically puts the plane on the south side of the station.
Directly, maybe.

Indirectly they all place it on a flight path that is completely inconsistent with the North side of the station, but is consistent with the South.
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Old 25th April 2007, 04:35 PM   #482
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Lyte's deception is not so...well...deceptive. If a witness says they saw the plane hit the lightpoles, then this witness, in Lyte's eyes, does not specifically put the plane on the South of the Citgo. The witness would actually have to say, "Well, the plane came in south of the Citgo and then hit these lightpoles".

Of course, then Lyte could say that his witnesses put the plane north of Citgo gas pump #4 Unleaded Plus nozzle, and unless a witness specifically says that the plane "went south of the Citgo gas pump #4 Unleaded Plus nozzle", that witness is not contradicting his claim.
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Old 25th April 2007, 04:48 PM   #483
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Personally, I think the "north of Citgo - flyover" theory is totally full of CIT.

But that's just me.

Puts me in mind of one of my High School buds describing their acid trip back in the 70's.

Originally Posted by 70's bud
Man, it was such a trip! We were like, driving down the road, and this plane looked like it was gonna hit the Pentagon, and then, when it was like feet away from the wall, this big fire ball appeared, and then these colors just like, well, you know, expanded, and tracers were coming off all over the place, and it looked like the plane divided into several planes, and there was this really loud noise, and I just decided it was all too much. I'm not sure what I saw, dude, but it was definitely heavy.

Wanna try some?
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Old 17th June 2007, 09:43 AM   #484
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Lyte is at it again. On another forum he was asked the following question.

Q? Why did these witnesses that were in a postition to see the Pentagon fail to report a "flyover?"

Lyte: "You don't know that they didn't. The 911 calls were confiscated and permanently sequestered. In fact this indicates that they DID."


Can anyone verify his answer? Have ALL of the 911 calls on 9-11 been "permanently sequestered" or are they available through the FOIA?
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Old 17th June 2007, 11:10 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by Calcas View Post
Lyte is at it again. On another forum he was asked the following question.

Q? Why did these witnesses that were in a postition to see the Pentagon fail to report a "flyover?"

Lyte: "You don't know that they didn't. The 911 calls were confiscated and permanently sequestered. In fact this indicates that they DID."


Can anyone verify his answer? Have ALL of the 911 calls on 9-11 been "permanently sequestered" or are they available through the FOIA?

This question is important because, of course, calling 911 is the only possible way of "reporting" an anomalous event of enormous historical and political importance that you've eyewitnessed. It's not as if Washington DC has journalists from all over the world snooping around looking for stories or anything.

Respectfully,
Myriad
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Old 17th June 2007, 02:21 PM   #486
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I concur. That is an excellent question regarding the phone call records.
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Old 17th June 2007, 02:53 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
This question is important because, of course, calling 911 is the only possible way of "reporting" an anomalous event of enormous historical and political importance that you've eyewitnessed. It's not as if Washington DC has journalists from all over the world snooping around looking for stories or anything.

Respectfully,
Myriad
Lyte uses the account of William Lagasse, who both saw the American Airlines plane hit the Pentagon and immediately radioed in what had happened.

Please don't give this sad person the attention he craves.
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Old 17th June 2007, 03:00 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by Calcas View Post
Lyte is at it again. On another forum he was asked the following question.

Q? Why did these witnesses that were in a postition to see the Pentagon fail to report a "flyover?"

Lyte: "You don't know that they didn't. The 911 calls were confiscated and permanently sequestered. In fact this indicates that they DID."

Can anyone verify his answer? Have ALL of the 911 calls on 9-11 been "permanently sequestered" or are they available through the FOIA?
Typical of Lyte to use this "well gee the phone calls were confiscated SO THEY MUST PROVE A FLYOVER" argument.

BTW the latest update (lie) on the CIT "Researchers Edition" delay is that new info is coming in so that is what is delaying it.
This despite his promise of "2 more weeks" that he has been claiming since like January.

What a snake oil salesmen.
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Old 12th July 2015, 06:49 AM   #489
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I have a question for some of the long time posters here:

Do you think Craig and Aldo really believed their position?

I honestly do not mean this as an idle question or to open a CIT-bashing thread. I've recently read most of the the threads on CIT; and I mean the entire thread, including this one. And where I'm coming from on this, like Gage, I get the feeling that they honestly believe that the plane was NoC and there was a flyover, but their so-called "proof" of this is shaky. But the end justifies the means, so they argue/repeat it viciously.

And to extend this further, yes I think they believe their witnesses of NoC are absolutely correct, but it's when it comes to the dozens of witnesses to SoC....well....they obviously cannot be correct so they [u]must[u] be discredited by any means necessary. It's here where I get the feeling they don't truly believe what they're arguing, but they have to argue it to make NoC correct.

Sorry if I opened up any old wounds but these were truly some of the most entertaining threads on [now] ISF and I was just hoping for the opinions of the members who actually lived through this.....I guess silliness!


BTW, I didn't think this warranted a new thread, but if the moderators feel differently they are free to move it.
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Old 12th July 2015, 07:29 AM   #490
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Holy crapola Batman. I though this was dead and buried, even rotted in the grave a long time ago.

I suspect they initially believed the BS in the very beginning. Eventually, they had so much invested in it it became a matter of pride to keep it going. Also, they relished the spotlight that motivated other truthers, as well.

Neither of them were remotely familiar with the math involved to allow their stupid theory to be true, so they used what they thought were common sense stuff that the gullible truthers would buy.

Toward the end they started posting manipulated photographs that had to be done intentionally to keep the ruse going. At that point, they knew they were defeated, but had to keep it going to get traction from their fan club.

Shortly after that they took down their silly web site. There are still some around who believe it, but they don't bother to defend it with any substance (as if there ever was any substance at all).
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Old 12th July 2015, 07:45 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Holy crapola Batman. I though this was dead and buried, even rotted in the grave a long time ago.
It is. I didn't suggest there was any validity to their claims nor that their claims should be open for further discussion. They enjoyed a very small group of supporters even at their height, AFAICT, and other than a scattering of "flyover" trumpeters with little to know understanding of what their saying, CIT is all but dead and gone.

Quote:
I suspect they initially believed the BS in the very beginning. Eventually, they had so much invested in it it became a matter of pride to keep it going. Also, they relished the spotlight that motivated other truthers, as well.
Thank you. This is what I was looking for. Yes, I got how much they liked their echo chamber. I actually thought they believed in a flyover but I respect you probably know more about them than me.

Quote:
Neither of them were remotely familiar with the math involved to allow their stupid theory to be true, so they used what they thought were common sense stuff that the gullible truthers would buy.
Agreed

Quote:
Toward the end they started posting manipulated photographs that had to be done intentionally to keep the ruse going. At that point, they knew they were defeated, but had to keep it going to get traction from their fan club.
Now this I didn't actually know. Can you elaborate for me?

Quote:
Shortly after that they took down their silly web site. There are still some around who believe it, but they don't bother to defend it with any substance (as if there ever was any substance at all).
As far as I can see, they still have their website up and running, although it doesn't appear to have been updated in several years. I hope you understand if I don't provide a link; I don't wish to promote any traffic to their site.

Thank you for your response.

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Old 12th July 2015, 08:03 AM   #492
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There was nothing innocent about those clowns.

The way they attacked the cab driver was reprehensible.

They got their NOC idea from someone else who subsequently accused them of manipulating the witnesses and data. They attacked any of their critics, on both sides.

at the end of the day, they were a couple of misfit no planers who did as much to destroy the "truth" movement as anyone, so perhaps we ought to thank them.
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Old 12th July 2015, 08:11 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
There was nothing innocent about those clowns.

The way they attacked the cab driver was reprehensible.

They got their NOC idea from someone else who subsequently accused them of manipulating the witnesses and data. They attacked any of their critics, on both sides.

at the end of the day, they were a couple of misfit no planers who did as much to destroy the "truth" movement as anyone, so perhaps we ought to thank them.
Are you referring to Russell Pickering? Yes, I read the melt down on the Loose Change Forum and then their own forum. I didn't know he was the originator of NoC, if that's who you mean.

And yes, Lloyd seemed to me to be another obstacle in their way that needed to be discredited. They didn't truly believe he was lying, but they needed to manipulate the interview so it would appear so to their faithful. What they did to him TWICE is without question reprehensible.


I meant to ask: do you think they really believed in a flyover or was it simply all made up to get their piece of 9/11? I understand this is purely speculation, but I'm interested in people's opinions who were immersed in this at the time where I wasn't.
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Old 12th July 2015, 08:29 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
Are you referring to Russell Pickering? Yes, I read the melt down on the Loose Change Forum and then their own forum. I didn't know he was the originator of NoC, if that's who you mean.

And yes, Lloyd seemed to me to be another obstacle in their way that needed to be discredited. They didn't truly believe he was lying, but they needed to manipulate the interview so it would appear so to their faithful. What they did to him TWICE is without question reprehensible.


I meant to ask: do you think they really believed in a flyover or was it simply all made up to get their piece of 9/11? I understand this is purely speculation, but I'm interested in people's opinions who were immersed in this at the time where I wasn't.
As mentioned above, there might have been a time when they were actually interested in making their names by investigating anomalies at the Pentagon but it did not take long before they were manipulating their interviews and attacking their critics, so I will go with the latter.

At one time they also hung around a total lunatic whose hobby was trolling the people of Shanksville, cripes what was his name???
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Old 12th July 2015, 08:35 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
As mentioned above, there might have been a time when they were actually interested in making their names by investigating anomalies at the Pentagon but it did not take long before they were manipulating their interviews and attacking their critics, so I will go with the latter.
Thank you for your response.

Quote:
At one time they also hung around a total lunatic whose hobby was trolling the people of Shanksville, cripes what was his name???
I'm not taking THAT bait!

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Old 12th July 2015, 09:35 AM   #496
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This is not addressing cantonear's question, but perhaps is interesting in context:

There is a new Facebook group "EUROPE for 9/11 TRUTH", founded by Johann Kalari of Vienna, Austria (who apparently had organized Richard Gage's presentation in Vienna in May). Created only a month ago, the group jumped to almost 4000 members quickly. It has posts and comments almost exclusively in German (so much for "EUROPE") - I HAD to join!



Soon noticed that many commenters doubt the planes. So I posted a question/poll, asking whether members belief there were real planes or not at the four sites. Options were (as best as I remember - because poll was deletred after a couple of days and I way kicked out of the group):
1. All four were real planes
2. WTC and Pentagon real planes, Shanksville rather not
3. WTC real planes, Pentagon and Shanksville rather not
4. None of the four was a real plane
5. Other combination
6. I have no idea

The last time I checked before the poll was deleted, there were a little over 50 replies. Not a single person had voted "all 4 real". One had "no idea", two had "other combination". Of the rest, >90%, more than half voted "None were real", the rest "WTC real, Pentagon and Shanksville not" [link].

More than 90% of German-speaking truthers that responded to my poll believe on No-Plane and the Pentagon!


Here is a recent blog post by influential Pentagon no-planer Craig McKee:
Win converts using these ‘plane-hit-the-Pentagon’ talking points: just keep repeating, ‘It’s so divisive!’

And an older (2012) one:
More absurd arguments on the Pentagon: ‘propaganda team’ sets its sights on Griffin

Make sure you scan the comments for the lulz!
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Old 12th July 2015, 10:18 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
This is not addressing cantonear's question, but perhaps is interesting in context:

There is a new Facebook group "EUROPE for 9/11 TRUTH", founded by Johann Kalari of Vienna, Austria (who apparently had organized Richard Gage's presentation in Vienna in May). Created only a month ago, the group jumped to almost 4000 members quickly. It has posts and comments almost exclusively in German (so much for "EUROPE") - I HAD to join!



Soon noticed that many commenters doubt the planes. So I posted a question/poll, asking whether members belief there were real planes or not at the four sites. Options were (as best as I remember - because poll was deletred after a couple of days and I way kicked out of the group):
1. All four were real planes
2. WTC and Pentagon real planes, Shanksville rather not
3. WTC real planes, Pentagon and Shanksville rather not
4. None of the four was a real plane
5. Other combination
6. I have no idea

The last time I checked before the poll was deleted, there were a little over 50 replies. Not a single person had voted "all 4 real". One had "no idea", two had "other combination". Of the rest, >90%, more than half voted "None were real", the rest "WTC real, Pentagon and Shanksville not" [link].

More than 90% of German-speaking truthers that responded to my poll believe on No-Plane and the Pentagon!


Here is a recent blog post by influential Pentagon no-planer Craig McKee:
Win converts using these ‘plane-hit-the-Pentagon’ talking points: just keep repeating, ‘It’s so divisive!’

And an older (2012) one:
More absurd arguments on the Pentagon: ‘propaganda team’ sets its sights on Griffin

Make sure you scan the comments for the lulz!
Actually that is rather interesting as No-Planers at the WTCs were always fringe of the fringe. Surprising to see them getting more traction. Or could it be that the more relatively-speaking-rational folk had their 9/11 questions answered years ago and the fringe of the fringe are all that's left. I can say there does seem to be an upswing in people on YT who don't seem to think planes hit the WTCs. That is also relatively speaking, but the "plane should have bounced off!" comment seems to come more often.

I actually came across a few blogs from Craig McKee recently in regards to CIT. I'm not sure if he is a follower/defender. He seemed more questioning why they weren't given a prominent role in the discussions at The Toronto Hearings and DC for 9/11 Truth conference a few years back.


Edit: Ok, just checked out the McKee blog and, surprisingly, he does support CIT:

"Those who have never seen CIT’s National Security Alert are particularly susceptible to [a plane hit the Pentagon]."

Simply amazing there is anyone willing to adopt this theory. I think anyone who wonders why should read this thread and the mental gymnastics Craig went through to get a plane to flyover the Pentagon.
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Old 12th July 2015, 10:38 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post

Here is a recent blog post by influential Pentagon no-planer Craig McKee:
Win converts using these ‘plane-hit-the-Pentagon’ talking points: just keep repeating, ‘It’s so divisive!’



Make sure you scan the comments for the lulz!
Looking through the comments, I saw a few names I recognized but don't know very well; Adam Sayed and Barbara Honegger. I thought both were prominent at 911 Blogger, which is very much anti-CIT. So it's surprising to see them agree with a NoC/No-Plane possibility. Adam even disparaging 9/11 Blogger. Am I wrong about them?
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Old 12th July 2015, 10:46 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
Looking through the comments, I saw a few names I recognized but don't know very well; Adam Sayed and Barbara Honegger. I thought both were prominent at 911 Blogger, which is very much anti-CIT. So it's surprising to see them agree with a NoC/No-Plane possibility. Adam even disparaging 9/11 Blogger. Am I wrong about them?
Honegger gets some beating at McKees blog, and Syed... apparently was banned at 911Blogger in 2010 already: http://911blogger.com/news/2010-10-3...truth-movement (and following comments).
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Old 12th July 2015, 10:56 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Honegger gets some beating at McKees blog, and Syed... apparently was banned at 911Blogger in 2010 already: http://911blogger.com/news/2010-10-3...truth-movement (and following comments).
Ok. Thank you Oystein.
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Old 12th July 2015, 11:35 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
Are you referring to Russell Pickering? Yes, I read the melt down on the Loose Change Forum and then their own forum. I didn't know he was the originator of NoC, if that's who you mean.
No, it wasn't Russell Pickering. It was someone else who's name I don't recall. Pickering split with them because they were manipulating witnesses and the result was the meltdown you're speaking about.
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Old 12th July 2015, 11:58 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
It is. I didn't suggest there was any validity to their claims nor that their claims should be open for further discussion. They enjoyed a very small group of supporters even at their height, AFAICT, and other than a scattering of "flyover" trumpeters with little to know understanding of what their saying, CIT is all but dead and gone.
Yes, I understood your question and your viewpoint. Didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
Now this I didn't actually know. Can you elaborate for me?
The photograph I recall most vividly was a couple of still shots from the video taken by the guy in the car as he traveled East around the Pentagon as the smoke was rising (Tribby Video). They arranged two stills from DIFFERENT perspectives, but pretended they were from the same perspective. It gave the distinct impression that the smoke was to the North of the actual impact point. Of course, the smoke column was always South of the impact point. As I recall it was an obvious attempt to show the flyover was well North of the actual impact point because it had been shown mathematically/aerodynamically that it was impossible for the aircraft to have made the turn from the Citgo Station to the actual impact point.

It was posted on their Web Site, at ATS and probably here, but I have no interest in searching for it now. All of this occurred after it was vividly shown that none of their flight paths North of the Citgo Service Station were aerodynamically possible.
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Old 13th July 2015, 10:11 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
No, it wasn't Russell Pickering. It was someone else who's name I don't recall. Pickering split with them because they were manipulating witnesses and the result was the meltdown you're speaking about.
Ok.

A very interesting read was that meltdown. Along with the one at PFFFTT between Dominick and Rob Balsamo!

[ducks to avoid a chair thrown by Reheat at the mention of that name!]

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Old 13th July 2015, 10:16 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Yes, I understood your question and your viewpoint. Didn't mean to imply otherwise.



The photograph I recall most vividly was a couple of still shots from the video taken by the guy in the car as he traveled East around the Pentagon as the smoke was rising (Tribby Video). They arranged two stills from DIFFERENT perspectives, but pretended they were from the same perspective. It gave the distinct impression that the smoke was to the North of the actual impact point. Of course, the smoke column was always South of the impact point. As I recall it was an obvious attempt to show the flyover was well North of the actual impact point because it had been shown mathematically/aerodynamically that it was impossible for the aircraft to have made the turn from the Citgo Station to the actual impact point.

It was posted on their Web Site, at ATS and probably here, but I have no interest in searching for it now. All of this occurred after it was vividly shown that none of their flight paths North of the Citgo Service Station were aerodynamically possible.
Ok, thanks for this. Very interesting! I hadn't come across that one before.

I'm beginning to change my viewpoint given the responses. I also forgot that they initially went to DC with Dylan Avery right around the height of Loose Change. I imagine it would be very easy to get up in the 9/11 cottage industry being so close to all that hype and internet adoration.

And no, I don't expect anyone to do any more digging on this than what they can reference from the top of their head. This is simply curiosity on my part, and not a need to rehash old arguments.

Thanks very much for your response Reheat.
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Old 13th July 2015, 12:52 PM   #505
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The thing that still gets me about such clams is this: suppose I was an evil CIA/NSA/Illuminati/NASA/whatever conspirator, and I wanted people to believe an airliner hit the Pentagon... If any of my minions suggested such absurd and clunky plans as put forth by the no-planers, I would press the button that drops him into the piranha tank, stroke the fluffy white cat on my lap, and order another minion to, well, arrange for an airliner to fly into the building.
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Old 13th July 2015, 01:16 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
The thing that still gets me about such clams is this: suppose I was an evil CIA/NSA/Illuminati/NASA/whatever conspirator, and I wanted people to believe an airliner hit the Pentagon... If any of my minions suggested such absurd and clunky plans as put forth by the no-planers, I would press the button that drops him into the piranha tank, stroke the fluffy white cat on my lap, and order another minion to, well, arrange for an airliner to fly into the building.
I think RMackey had the definitive response in regards to CIT and their theory. Something along the lines that it was so dumb it wouldn't even be thought up to use in stress tests!

I haven't immersed myself in other conspiracy theories as much as 9/11, but I'm sure the same can be said for most if not all of them: 9/11 is so unbelievably complicated and unnecessary that it would never make it off the white board to be implemented as a plan.
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Old 13th July 2015, 09:40 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
No, it wasn't Russell Pickering. It was someone else who's name I don't recall. Pickering split with them because they were manipulating witnesses and the result was the meltdown you're speaking about.
Ahhh... good ole' Russ! One of the most reasonable of that cesspool known as LCF! Those were the days!
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Old 14th July 2015, 11:55 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
No, it wasn't Russell Pickering. It was someone else who's name I don't recall. Pickering split with them because they were manipulating witnesses and the result was the meltdown you're speaking about.
Not killtown, was it? The description of total loon fits but I don't recall him being with the CiT.
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Old 14th July 2015, 02:21 PM   #509
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Old 14th July 2015, 06:36 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Not killtown, was it? The description of total loon fits but I don't recall him being with the CiT.
No. Sorry I don't recall the guys name now. He started advocating no plane crap and then apparently dropped it. CIT picked up on the same later. Someone will come along who remembers the name eventually. He never was a big name in the BM, but he was the originator of the thought...
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Old 15th July 2015, 06:27 AM   #511
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It kind of boggles my mind that I used to seriously debate those mad theories with those people. On the one hand it was such a waste of time, but on the other hand god damn I learned a lot about 9/11. If nothing else, the experience really revealed to me just how insanely well documented that event actually was. It's insane what you can find out about it from your own computer. That in itself completely dispels any CT because with such a mountain of information, if there was anything amiss about the event, it would be readily available.
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Old 15th July 2015, 06:55 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
It kind of boggles my mind that I used to seriously debate those mad theories with those people. On the one hand it was such a waste of time, but on the other hand god damn I learned a lot about 9/11. If nothing else, the experience really revealed to me just how insanely well documented that event actually was. It's insane what you can find out about it from your own computer. That in itself completely dispels any CT because with such a mountain of information, if there was anything amiss about the event, it would be readily available.
And on their side, IIRC, they had one witness (Legasse) who legitimately says the plane flew Noc.

One whole witness.

And even he says it hit the Pentagon.

And they actually had some people who bought this!

Boggles the mind for sure.
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Old 15th July 2015, 09:21 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
And on their side, IIRC, they had one witness (Legasse) who legitimately says the plane flew Noc.
This is no real mystery. Lagasse had to be reminded where and in what direction he was parked at the gas station! He obviously didn't remember. That would make a great deal of difference when referring to left and right of his position. They capitalized on those relative references and many loons bought it.

They also capitalized on the fact that it is difficult to near impossible for anyone (especially a layman) to determine the distance of an airborne object without comparative references for estimating that distance. This is vividly illustrated in that many folks identified it as a B-737 as opposed to a B-757. Distance make a great deal of difference in the apparent size.
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Old 16th July 2015, 06:01 AM   #514
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
This is no real mystery. Lagasse had to be reminded where and in what direction he was parked at the gas station! He obviously didn't remember. That would make a great deal of difference when referring to left and right of his position. They capitalized on those relative references and many loons bought it.

They also capitalized on the fact that it is difficult to near impossible for anyone (especially a layman) to determine the distance of an airborne object without comparative references for estimating that distance. This is vividly illustrated in that many folks identified it as a B-737 as opposed to a B-757. Distance make a great deal of difference in the apparent size.
Absolutely. I was referring to Craig and Aldo's spin on the other witnesses. Legasse, as far as I can tell, was the only witness who states the plane was NoC. Everyone else was CIT's interpretation of what they "meant".

There's an interesting thread on their forum about "another" flyover witness, Dewitt Roseborough, a name I hadn't come across before. It illustrates what I'm talking about perfectly. He was an eyewitness to the crash and had given an interview around the time. They take that interview and interpret fly over. They then call him, he repeatedly states he'd rather not talk about it, and they interpret he understands the implications of a fly over and is afraid to talk about it. Boom! Fly over witness! And then all the faitful jump in to pat Craig and Aldo on the back.

One admittedly confused police officer and that was the basis for their magic show and harrassing an old cab driver. Psychologically, it's amazing to watch.
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Old 16th July 2015, 12:10 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by cantonear1968 View Post
And on their side, IIRC, they had one witness (Legasse) who legitimately says the plane flew Noc.

One whole witness.

And even he says it hit the Pentagon.

And they actually had some people who bought this!

Boggles the mind for sure.
Each supposed NoC witness who was also in a position to view the Pentagon says it hit the building. Exactly none of them say it flew over the building. None even opine that it hit an upper floor!
CiT then come up with fantastical excuses why this single point of agreement between all these witnesses, on the position of the aircraft, should be discarded. Boger didn't see it hit because he dove under the desk and lied about when he did that. The Arlington witnesses also ducked so they couldn't see what they said they saw. Etc., etc.,etc. ( BTW I keep the 'i' in CiT in lower case because while I cannot dispute their citizenship or that they form a team, I can dispute their investigatory prowess)
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Old 20th July 2015, 01:22 AM   #516
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
They also capitalized on the fact that it is difficult to near impossible for anyone (especially a layman) to determine the distance of an airborne object without comparative references for estimating that distance. This is vividly illustrated in that many folks identified it as a B-737 as opposed to a B-757. Distance make a great deal of difference in the apparent size.

Speed, also, tricks people. This was well illustrated to me earlier this year when a meteorite came over New Zealand one night. Hundreds of people all over the country reported it, and virtually all of them reported it hitting ground in their vicinity. Some of them were absolutely certain it had landed "just over those trees" or "up in that valley".

In reality the meteorite landed in the ocean, some 300 km east of New Zealand.

The reason for the confusion was that normal people simply aren't familiar with objects travelling at such huge speed, so if they see something go past that fast, they assume it's much, much closer than it actually is.

The same thing, to a lesser extent, happens with an aircraft flying over at very low speed. Most people aren't used to large objects flying over them at 600-800km/h, so they can't accurately judge how close or far away the object is.
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Old 20th July 2015, 08:06 AM   #517
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The speed trickery is illustrated if you can watch a large a/c such as a 747, landing. As it approaches the ground it seems to almost be hanging in the air, barely moving. Then as it touches down one realizes its doing what would be considered fast for a car on a highway.
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Old 20th July 2015, 08:41 AM   #518
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
The speed trickery is illustrated if you can watch a large a/c such as a 747, landing. As it approaches the ground it seems to almost be hanging in the air, barely moving. Then as it touches down one realizes its doing what would be considered fast for a car on a highway.
This reminded me of the first few minutes of 'Fata Morgana'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1e_mlz8ZdY

The planes look as though they are moving straight down like flying saucers landing.
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Old 22nd July 2015, 09:36 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
The speed trickery is illustrated if you can watch a large a/c such as a 747, landing. As it approaches the ground it seems to almost be hanging in the air, barely moving. Then as it touches down one realizes its doing what would be considered fast for a car on a highway.
It is doing more or less the same mph as a smaller plane BUT that translates into a lot less "aircraft lengths per second" - which is what perception/judgement tends to follow.
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