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Old 17th August 2017, 09:02 AM   #2401
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't want a United States of Europe if that's not too academic for this forum.
First, we are (sadly) no where near such case. Second, globalization and various things are enforcing creation of tightly coupled super-states. Individual countries below certain size (USA or Russia) are not powerful enough to match big countries or mega-corporations.
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Old 17th August 2017, 10:05 AM   #2402
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't want a United States of Europe if that's not too academic for this forum.
Any indication that there's the prospect of one ?
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Old 17th August 2017, 02:37 PM   #2403
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't want a United States of Europe if that's not too academic for this forum.
Given the utter lack of facts or evidence in your posts I don't think anyone would accuse you of being too academic. We live in an era of global commerce and communications. We face global issues as far as the environment and food security, but you want to tackle 21st century issues with a 19th century political system of individual nation states? That is the essence of what May and the Brexiteers are trying to do, turn the clock back to a past that never really existed in the first place. It's the same basic message Trump offered in the USA, a return to golden past, with more than a dash of racism thrown in.
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Old 17th August 2017, 02:50 PM   #2404
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cutting to the nub of it there Garrison.

Especially your first and last sentences.
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Old 17th August 2017, 05:56 PM   #2405
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't want a United States of Europe if that's not too academic for this forum.
But a United Kingdom is much different... , or is it just twee as per the past?
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Old 18th August 2017, 12:53 AM   #2406
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
But a United Kingdom is much different... , or is it just twee as per the past?
United in name only, as the Brexit referendum results showed
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Old 18th August 2017, 01:09 AM   #2407
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
But a United Kingdom is much different... , or is it just twee as per the past?
Sod that.
I'm not even convinced about England.
Freedom for Mercia!

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Old 18th August 2017, 04:51 AM   #2408
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If your host country introduced tricky residency requirements (including - heaven forfend, having to learn the local lingo and something about the country :rolleyes) then your idyllic retirement plans could soon be in tatters.
Cínte. D'fhéadfadh sé a bheith an-éaglóideach as an meán teanga aonair Sasanach.
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Old 18th August 2017, 04:57 AM   #2409
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
There was a similar result in a poll in the run-up to the referendum, in which a majority thought Brits should have free movement in Europe, and a majority thought Europeans should not have free movement in the UK. Whole swathes of the population clearly are as thick as pig ****<snip>.
I believe the snipped words are unnecessary.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Well, that's the line most of the press have been pushing for years. It's like the way the front cover of the Daily Mail today was shrieking that the chimes of Big Ben being switched off during four years for renovations is "health and safety gone mad," as if not subjecting workers in close proximity to 1-12 x 118 decibels every hour is a "bad thing."
Indeed. Next they'll be saying sending six-year-old children up chimneys is wrong. A useful trade for paupers and orphans. Bring back the brush and brine, and the sulphur candle!!
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Old 18th August 2017, 08:29 AM   #2410
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Cínte. D'fhéadfadh sé a bheith an-éaglóideach as an meán teanga aonair Sasanach.
I think your cat walked across your keyboard and managed to post this.

Btw, if you call the English "Sasanach", what do you call Saxons?
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Old 18th August 2017, 11:06 AM   #2411
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I think your cat walked across your keyboard and managed to post this.

Btw, if you call the English "Sasanach", what do you call Saxons?
"Sasanach"
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Old 19th August 2017, 02:25 PM   #2412
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Sod that.
I'm not even convinced about England.
Freedom for Mercia!

Independent People's Republic of Yorkshire now!
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Old 19th August 2017, 03:19 PM   #2413
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Independent People's Republic of Yorkshire now!
Jorvik is filing a challenging claim.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
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Old 19th August 2017, 10:52 PM   #2414
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A pro-Brexit economist suggests that there are benefits amounting to £135bn annually which would accrue from the UK unilaterally abandoning all tariffs and removing swathes of legislation.

Quote:
A hard Brexit is "economically much superior to soft" argues Prof Patrick Minford, lead author of a report from Economists for Free Trade.

He says eliminating tariffs, either within free trade deals or unilaterally, would deliver huge gains.
Quote:
The EU would then be under pressure to offer Britain a free trade deal, because otherwise its producers would be competing in a UK market "flooded with less expensive goods from elsewhere", his introduction says.

He argues UK businesses and consumers would benefit from lower priced imported goods and the effects of increased competition, which would force firms to raise their productivity.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

An Anti-Brexit group suggests that the analysis is flawed.
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Old 20th August 2017, 12:43 AM   #2415
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
A pro-Brexit economist suggests that there are benefits amounting to £135bn annually which would accrue from the UK unilaterally abandoning all tariffs and removing swathes of legislation.





http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

An Anti-Brexit group suggests that the analysis is flawed.
The expert is also inconsistent in his views:

"During the referendum campaign last year Prof Minford stoked controversy by suggesting that the effect of leaving the EU would be to "eliminate manufacturing, leaving mainly industries such as design, marketing and hi-tech".
However in a recent article in the Financial Times he suggested manufacturing would become more profitable post-Brexit."
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Old 20th August 2017, 12:50 AM   #2416
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
A pro-Brexit economist suggests that there are benefits amounting to £135bn annually which would accrue from the UK unilaterally abandoning all tariffs and removing swathes of legislation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

An Anti-Brexit group suggests that the analysis is flawed.
Out of curiosity, why would anyone sign a trade deal with a country that unilaterarily removed tariffs on everyone? It seems to me you'd be giving up something in exchange for something you already had.

That said, this seems like a part of the strategy of a race to the bottom ... if you call that a strategy at all.

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Old 20th August 2017, 01:52 AM   #2417
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worth reading this pro-leave blog

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86574

Quote:

Not for the first time, and doubtless not the last, I'm having to point out that the conclusions we came to in*Flexcit*were not arbitrary. In particular, the "Norway" (aka Efta/EEA) option became our choice not for its specific merits but after eliminating the less favourable alternatives.

There was a brief period when it became fashionable to list as many variations and sub-variations as possible but, in truth, there were only ever three: the unilateral (WTO), bilateral (Swiss) and the multilateral (Norway) options.*
I don't really understand why the author was pro leave, given his reasoning.
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:41 AM   #2418
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
The expert is also inconsistent in his views:

"During the referendum campaign last year Prof Minford stoked controversy by suggesting that the effect of leaving the EU would be to "eliminate manufacturing, leaving mainly industries such as design, marketing and hi-tech".
However in a recent article in the Financial Times he suggested manufacturing would become more profitable post-Brexit."
Well economic theory would more strongly support his first statement (i.e. most manufacturing and agriculture would stop) compared to the later based on the idea of comparative advantage. Ironically this would probably mean the Remain voting areas benefiting from Brexit with the Leave voting areas being damaged.

However, unilateral free trade makes the whole analysis more complex so I wouldn't be so sanguine about the prospects for the more high end industrial areas given protectionism in the rest of the world. Therefore generally I would strongly doubt the claimed benefits they've come out with even without checking the underlying assumptions of their model.
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Old 20th August 2017, 04:58 AM   #2419
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Quote:
The Brexit secretary, David Davis, is urging Brussels to revisit the government’s proposal to kick off discussions on Britain’s future relationship with the EU alongside withdrawal talks.

Negotiations are to resume in just over a week’s time in Brussels, amid growing concern in government that at the current pace it may be impossible to open trade talks until the end of the year.

The EU has always insisted that key aspects of Britain’s withdrawal – including the principles of a financial settlement, the future of EU citizens living in the UK and the status of Northern Ireland – be dealt with before talks on a new trade deal can begin.

Davis initially suggested the timetabling of talks would be “the row of the summer”, with Britain pressing to begin discussing the future relationship from the start. When negotiations began formally after the general election, he appeared to have conceded that the EU’s approach was acceptable.

But in an article in the Sunday Times, he reopened the debate, arguing that the talks so far have exposed the fact that it is impossible to settle some of the withdrawal questions without a sense of what the future relationship between Britain and the EU will be.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-at-same-time

Complete and utter desperation.
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Old 20th August 2017, 10:40 AM   #2420
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
<snip>

Quote:
But in an article in the Sunday Times, he reopened the debate, arguing that the talks so far have exposed the fact that it is impossible to settle some of the withdrawal questions without a sense of what the future relationship between Britain and the EU will be.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-at-same-time

Complete and utter desperation.

That sounds a lot like the same way they handled pro-Brexit arguments going into the referendum. So, no real change there.

A path to have the clock run out without the U.K. having done any negotiating at all.

Is this by intent? Or is incompetence a sufficient explanation?
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Old 20th August 2017, 01:06 PM   #2421
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
A pro-Brexit economist suggests that there are benefits amounting to £135bn annually which would accrue from the UK unilaterally abandoning all tariffs and removing swathes of legislation.





http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

An Anti-Brexit group suggests that the analysis is flawed.
The pro-brexit economist also suggested deregulating the economy, which I suspect means getting rid of all those pesky workers rights and environmental regulations.
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Old Yesterday, 07:41 AM   #2422
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The EU budget has never been properly audited. That's why we are being cheated. It's scandalous.
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Old Yesterday, 07:58 AM   #2423
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
The EU budget has never been properly audited. That's why we are being cheated. It's scandalous.
What the hell are you on???
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Old Yesterday, 08:49 AM   #2424
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
The EU budget has never been properly audited. That's why we are being cheated. It's scandalous.
https://fullfact.org/europe/did-audi...ign-eu-budget/
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Old Yesterday, 12:09 PM   #2425
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If you are expecting facts to sway Henri with facts you clearly haven't seen his contributions in the Jeffrey McDonald really did it thread.
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Old Yesterday, 11:58 PM   #2426
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Is this by intent? Or is incompetence a sufficient explanation?
IMO they are blithely incompetent. Davis, Fox and Boris have no idea how complicated the negotiations are, how broad the scope and how long the process will really take - and they aren't willing to learn.

They're not bothered by this because they believe that English (not British you note) exceptionalism means that the EU will cave in at the last minute and give us everything we want because "The English, the English, the English are best. I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest" .

If for some reason Johnny European doesn't cave in (despicable bunch) and we leave without a deal, that will be fine too because the rest of the world will give us great deals for the same reason.......
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Old Yesterday, 11:59 PM   #2427
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
The pro-brexit economist also suggested deregulating the economy, which I suspect means getting rid of all those pesky workers rights and environmental regulations.
Going right back to the start of the Brexit discussions, I still can't see how the UK becomes more competitive outside the EU unless the workers and/or environment end up paying for it.
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Old Today, 12:31 AM   #2428
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Going right back to the start of the Brexit discussions, I still can't see how the UK becomes more competitive outside the EU unless the workers and/or environment end up paying for it.
I suppose the theory is that the Eu imposes a lot of unnecessary red tape that can be done away with. The reality of course is that it's probably not unnecessary and if you still want to trade in the EU you can't really do away with it either.

Becoming more competitive by doinn away with workers rights or environment protection is utterly pointless anyway. You can't compete with China or India on cost.
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Old Today, 12:51 AM   #2429
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I suppose the theory is that the Eu imposes a lot of unnecessary red tape that can be done away with. The reality of course is that it's probably not unnecessary and if you still want to trade in the EU you can't really do away with it either.
The reality is that people who complain about red tape don't know what is the purpose of the said red tape to begin with. I saw an interview with a farmer who complained about how he had to keep track of all live births of his calfs, that he had to tag and record them immediately and so on.

He didn't realize this is vital if you want to have a transparent and thus safe supply of food, beef and veal in this case.

Quote:
Becoming more competitive by doinn away with workers rights or environment protection is utterly pointless anyway. You can't compete with China or India on cost.
And even if you could the best you can hope to get are sweatshops where people work their assess off for bare subsidience. This may be better than nothing if you have large swaths of unemployed and underemployed people and are looking for a way to get the ball rolling, but for a developed country like UK it's a phyrric victory in the best-case scenario.

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Old Today, 02:29 AM   #2430
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Grenfell Tower also shows the risk of regulation that is too lax, or hasn't kept up with modern practice.
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Old Today, 03:58 AM   #2431
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Another "Headline doesn't reflect the story"

This time from the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-tweets-david/

Quote:
Posting on the social media platform Michel Barnier, who is leading the talks for the EU, said the bloc's position had been clear "from day one" and listed nine position papers already published by European leaders.*
Not exactly "goading"
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old Today, 11:18 AM   #2432
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
If you are expecting facts to sway Henri with facts you clearly haven't seen his contributions in the Jeffrey McDonald really did it any thread in whixh Henri participates.
Fixed That For You....
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Old Today, 02:19 PM   #2433
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
The EU budget has never been properly audited. That's why we are being cheated. It's scandalous.
Completely untrue.
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Old Today, 05:27 PM   #2434
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The reality is that people who complain about red tape don't know what is the purpose of the said red tape to begin with. I saw an interview with a farmer who complained about how he had to keep track of all live births of his calfs, that he had to tag and record them immediately and so on.

He didn't realize this is vital if you want to have a transparent and thus safe supply of food, beef and veal in this case.
Hey, who cares if a little horse meat ends up being sold as beef. And who cares if you don't know if and when said horses have been treated with hormones or other drugs.

(Personally, I don't have a hang-up about eating horse meat, though I rarely do. Many, many Brits do, however. I do have a problem with unknown provenance of the meat.)

A bit of higher quality tagging would be in order though. It's a bit preposterous that animals have to be tagged with four tags, two per ear, so that you're sure that at least one tag remains in the slaughterhouse.
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