Saudi journalist disappears in embassy, believed murdered - Page 11

quadraginta · 10th November 2018, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Not sure it had to be short notice; even the Saudi government (reluctantly) concedes the entire killing was premeditated. So, this isn't a case of people suddenly finding themselves with a body to dispose of and going "oh shoot, what do we do now?" They would have brought the acid with them, or otherwise made sure it was available when they needed it.

Who doesn't pack a few barrels of acid whenever they bring their bone saw somewhere, just in case?

I know I always do.

The Great Zaganza · 10th November 2018, 01:32 PM

TBH, this really gets me:
US forces have sometimes gone to great lengths to allow relatives access to the bodies of fallen fighters or civilian victims; and when that was not advisable (as with bin Laden), they took pains to give a proper burial at sea.

But the Saudis, supposedly the Best Muslims to watch over Mecca, don't think twice about literally flushing a devout fellow believer down the toilet.

I know this has been a big scandal, but somehow not big enough...

wasapi · 11th November 2018, 09:11 AM

My fear is that gradually this story is forgotten about and no one has to take responsibility.

Babbylonian · 11th November 2018, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by wasapi

My fear is that gradually this story is forgotten about and no one has to take responsibility.

One has nothing to do with the other. The person responsible (the current de facto head of state in Saudi Arabia) will almost certainly never be held accountable for his crime, regardless of whether or not anyone remembers what he did.

Childlike Empress · 12th November 2018, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Erdogan has claimed today that Turkey has given the audio recordings of the murder to the Saudis, the US, UK, France and Germany.

The French foreign minister said today they haven't gotten any recordings from Turkey.

Originally Posted by Reuters

Asked if that meant Erdogan was lying, Le Drian said: “it means that he has a political game to play in these circumstances.”

Originally Posted by Reuters

“The truth isn’t out yet. We want to know the truth, the circumstances of his death and the identity of the culprits. Then we will take the necessary actions,” Le Drian told France 2 television. “If the Turkish president has information to give us, he must give it to us. For now, I don’t know about it.”

Captain_Swoop · 12th November 2018, 12:15 PM

Jamal Khashoggi murder: Canadian intelligence 'has heard tape'

Quote:

Canadian intelligence has heard an audio recording of the killing of the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has confirmed.

"Canada has been fully briefed up on what Turkey had to share," he said.

Mr Trudeau is the first Western leader to confirm his country has listened to the purported tape of the murder at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

Turkey's president said on Saturday that he had given copies to the US, UK, Germany, France and Saudi Arabia.

"We gave them the tapes," Recep Tayyip Erdogan told reporters before flying to Paris for a gathering of world leaders commemorating the 100th anniversary of the end of World War One. "They've also listened to the conversations, they know it."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46183630

The Great Zaganza · 12th November 2018, 12:24 PM

this is utterly fascinating: all the Western Powers want to keep plausible deniability about having heard the evidence, as to not having to do anything about the murder.

Childlike Empress · 12th November 2018, 12:32 PM

Yeni Safak is also quoting Merkel's speaker on the topic, but with similar hearsay to Trudeau.

Originally Posted by Yeni Safak

German government has confirmed intelligence sharing between Turkey and Germany about the recordings of the killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

Asked about recent media reports over the weekend, Chancellor Angela Merkel’s spokesman confirmed that they have received information from Turkey.

“I can tell you that there has been an exchange of intelligence service information on that,” Steffen Seibert told a regular news conference, but declined to give any further details. [...]

So do we have any non-Turk who claims to have listened to them directly? Gina Haspel (idk)?

edit: Quickly checked (never believe anything by Yeni Safak): Seibert was not asked about the recordings, just generally about information on details shared by the Turks (also not mentioning "reports over the weekend"), so the headline and the first paragraph I quoted are untrue. He just gave a typically weasel-worded answer to a very broad question.

edit2: Oh, and needless to say the Turks are foaming at the mouth over the French statement.

Originally Posted by Yeni Safak

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's communications director said on Monday it was unacceptable for French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian to accuse the Turkish president of playing political games in the case of the slain Saudi journalist.

Le Drian said on Monday that France was not in possession of recordings related to the killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi as far as he was aware, contradicting remarks by Turkey's president.

"If there is lack of communication between France's state institutions, they will be the one to solve the problem," Fahrettin Altun said.

"Turkey keeps on revealing all details of the Khashoggi murder, including the mastermind giving the order. If it weren't for Turkey's determined efforts, the case would already have been covered," he added. [...]

Puppycow · 14th June 2022, 06:17 PM

I guess we have "bigger fish to fry" now. Oh well.

Saudi Crown Prince outlasts US' moral outrage, with a little help from soaring gas prices

Biden to meet with Saudi crown prince despite 'pariah' pledge

What exactly was this "pariah" pledge?

Quote:

But while a presidential candidate in 2019, Biden vowed to make Saudi Arabia "pay the price, and make them, in fact, the pariah that they are" over the killing of Khashoggi. The White House has said, as recently as this month, that Biden's view has not changed.

Quote:

A senior U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that if Biden "determines it's in his interest to engage with any particular leader, and if such an engagement can deliver results, then he will do so."

Really, is that the sort of statement that can only be given on condition of anonymity? Seems like a pretty bland statement.

This is just old-fashioned realpolitik: there are no permanent allies, only permanent interests.

theprestige · 14th June 2022, 06:32 PM

Ah, so we've been paying more for gas because Biden wants to stick it to Saudis.

Glad that's been cleared up. Now all Biden has to do is explain it clearly to the American public, and all will be well.

Puppycow · 14th June 2022, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Ah, so we've been paying more for gas because Biden wants to stick it to Saudis.

Glad that's been cleared up. Now all Biden has to do is explain it clearly to the American public, and all will be well.

There's an argument that we should embrace higher gas prices. It gives people an incentive to make better choices when they buy a car. Don't buy a gas-guzzler. Buy an electric car, or at least something that gets better mileage.

I'm not saying it would be politically popular, but in the long run it would actually be good policy. I'm in favor of carbon taxes too. I think Norway has the right idea. Gas is $10/gallon there, if you convert to US units and currency. Venezuala has the opposite approach. The government has subsidized gasoline to make it practically free there (about $0.10/gallon). Which country has achieved superior results?

Lplus · 15th June 2022, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

There's an argument that we should embrace higher gas prices. It gives people an incentive to make better choices when they buy a car. Don't buy a gas-guzzler. Buy an electric car, or at least something that gets better mileage.

I'm not saying it would be politically popular, but in the long run it would actually be good policy. I'm in favor of carbon taxes too. I think Norway has the right idea. Gas is $10/gallon there, if you convert to US units and currency. Venezuala has the opposite approach. The government has subsidized gasoline to make it practically free there (about $0.10/gallon). Which country has achieved superior results?

Before you laud Norway to the heavens, remember that Norway has about 98% of its electricity generated by hydropower. Plus they have generous oil/gas reserves to sell to generate foreign exchange for purchasing the electric cars.

10th November 2018, 12:16 PM	#401
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,614	Originally Posted by Checkmite Not sure it had to be short notice; even the Saudi government (reluctantly) concedes the entire killing was premeditated. So, this isn't a case of people suddenly finding themselves with a body to dispose of and going "oh shoot, what do we do now?" They would have brought the acid with them, or otherwise made sure it was available when they needed it. Who doesn't pack a few barrels of acid whenever they bring their bone saw somewhere, just in case? I know I always do.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

10th November 2018, 01:32 PM	#402
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 18,029	TBH, this really gets me: US forces have sometimes gone to great lengths to allow relatives access to the bodies of fallen fighters or civilian victims; and when that was not advisable (as with bin Laden), they took pains to give a proper burial at sea. But the Saudis, supposedly the Best Muslims to watch over Mecca, don't think twice about literally flushing a devout fellow believer down the toilet. I know this has been a big scandal, but somehow not big enough...
	__________________ "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emo Philips

11th November 2018, 09:11 AM	#403
wasapi Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 14,184	My fear is that gradually this story is forgotten about and no one has to take responsibility.
	__________________ Julia

12th November 2018, 12:24 PM	#407
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 18,029	this is utterly fascinating: all the Western Powers want to keep plausible deniability about having heard the evidence, as to not having to do anything about the murder.
	__________________ "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emo Philips

12th November 2018, 12:32 PM	#408
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 20,031	Yeni Safak is also quoting Merkel's speaker on the topic, but with similar hearsay to Trudeau. Originally Posted by Yeni Safak German government has confirmed intelligence sharing between Turkey and Germany about the recordings of the killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Asked about recent media reports over the weekend, Chancellor Angela Merkel’s spokesman confirmed that they have received information from Turkey. “I can tell you that there has been an exchange of intelligence service information on that,” Steffen Seibert told a regular news conference, but declined to give any further details. [...] So do we have any non-Turk who claims to have listened to them directly? Gina Haspel (idk)? edit: Quickly checked (never believe anything by Yeni Safak): Seibert was not asked about the recordings, just generally about information on details shared by the Turks (also not mentioning "reports over the weekend"), so the headline and the first paragraph I quoted are untrue. He just gave a typically weasel-worded answer to a very broad question. edit2: Oh, and needless to say the Turks are foaming at the mouth over the French statement. Originally Posted by Yeni Safak President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's communications director said on Monday it was unacceptable for French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian to accuse the Turkish president of playing political games in the case of the slain Saudi journalist. Le Drian said on Monday that France was not in possession of recordings related to the killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi as far as he was aware, contradicting remarks by Turkey's president. "If there is lack of communication between France's state institutions, they will be the one to solve the problem," Fahrettin Altun said. "Turkey keeps on revealing all details of the Khashoggi murder, including the mastermind giving the order. If it weren't for Turkey's determined efforts, the case would already have been covered," he added. [...]
	Last edited by Childlike Empress; 12th November 2018 at 12:48 PM.

11th November 2018, 10:12 AM	#404
Babbylonian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 13,902	Originally Posted by wasapi My fear is that gradually this story is forgotten about and no one has to take responsibility. One has nothing to do with the other. The person responsible (the current de facto head of state in Saudi Arabia) will almost certainly never be held accountable for his crime, regardless of whether or not anyone remembers what he did.

12th November 2018, 06:18 AM	#405
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 20,031	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress Erdogan has claimed today that Turkey has given the audio recordings of the murder to the Saudis, the US, UK, France and Germany. The French foreign minister said today they haven't gotten any recordings from Turkey. Originally Posted by Reuters Asked if that meant Erdogan was lying, Le Drian said: “it means that he has a political game to play in these circumstances.” Originally Posted by Reuters “The truth isn’t out yet. We want to know the truth, the circumstances of his death and the identity of the culprits. Then we will take the necessary actions,” Le Drian told France 2 television. “If the Turkish president has information to give us, he must give it to us. For now, I don’t know about it.”

12th November 2018, 12:15 PM	#406
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,785	Jamal Khashoggi murder: Canadian intelligence 'has heard tape' Quote: Canadian intelligence has heard an audio recording of the killing of the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has confirmed. "Canada has been fully briefed up on what Turkey had to share," he said. Mr Trudeau is the first Western leader to confirm his country has listened to the purported tape of the murder at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. Turkey's president said on Saturday that he had given copies to the US, UK, Germany, France and Saudi Arabia. "We gave them the tapes," Recep Tayyip Erdogan told reporters before flying to Paris for a gathering of world leaders commemorating the 100th anniversary of the end of World War One. "They've also listened to the conversations, they know it." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46183630

14th June 2022, 06:17 PM	#409
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 27,084	I guess we have "bigger fish to fry" now. Oh well. Saudi Crown Prince outlasts US' moral outrage, with a little help from soaring gas prices Biden to meet with Saudi crown prince despite 'pariah' pledge What exactly was this "pariah" pledge? Quote: But while a presidential candidate in 2019, Biden vowed to make Saudi Arabia "pay the price, and make them, in fact, the pariah that they are" over the killing of Khashoggi. The White House has said, as recently as this month, that Biden's view has not changed. Quote: A senior U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that if Biden "determines it's in his interest to engage with any particular leader, and if such an engagement can deliver results, then he will do so." Really, is that the sort of statement that can only be given on condition of anonymity? Seems like a pretty bland statement. This is just old-fashioned realpolitik: there are no permanent allies, only permanent interests.
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

14th June 2022, 06:32 PM	#410
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 59,409	Ah, so we've been paying more for gas because Biden wants to stick it to Saudis. Glad that's been cleared up. Now all Biden has to do is explain it clearly to the American public, and all will be well.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

14th June 2022, 06:59 PM	#411
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 27,084	Originally Posted by theprestige Ah, so we've been paying more for gas because Biden wants to stick it to Saudis. Glad that's been cleared up. Now all Biden has to do is explain it clearly to the American public, and all will be well. There's an argument that we should embrace higher gas prices. It gives people an incentive to make better choices when they buy a car. Don't buy a gas-guzzler. Buy an electric car, or at least something that gets better mileage. I'm not saying it would be politically popular, but in the long run it would actually be good policy. I'm in favor of carbon taxes too. I think Norway has the right idea. Gas is $10/gallon there, if you convert to US units and currency. Venezuala has the opposite approach. The government has subsidized gasoline to make it practically free there (about $0.10/gallon). Which country has achieved superior results?
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

15th June 2022, 12:12 AM	#412
Lplus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 1,030	Originally Posted by Puppycow There's an argument that we should embrace higher gas prices. It gives people an incentive to make better choices when they buy a car. Don't buy a gas-guzzler. Buy an electric car, or at least something that gets better mileage. I'm not saying it would be politically popular, but in the long run it would actually be good policy. I'm in favor of carbon taxes too. I think Norway has the right idea. Gas is $10/gallon there, if you convert to US units and currency. Venezuala has the opposite approach. The government has subsidized gasoline to make it practically free there (about $0.10/gallon). Which country has achieved superior results? Before you laud Norway to the heavens, remember that Norway has about 98% of its electricity generated by hydropower. Plus they have generous oil/gas reserves to sell to generate foreign exchange for purchasing the electric cars.
Lplus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 1,030	__________________ Life isn't fair, Princess; anyone who says it could be is selling a political ideology. Whinging on internet forums is the last resort of the powerless