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Old 12th June 2022, 06:39 PM   #41
dann
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Interesting Twitter thread:
Quote:
Nicholas Loubere (June 9, 2022)
Like everything related to China, the discourse around how the country has responded to the pandemic is polarised to the extreme.
China is either deluded by an impossible obsession with zero covid; or it's an example of humanity's ability to triumph over the virus. 1/

What has been largely missing from the discussion of China's pandemic response is an interest in trying to understand what has happened in China, why it has happened, and the implications for the people there.
Instead, China has become a way to make a point. 2/

China is either used as proof that attempting to suppress viral transmission inevitably results in increasingly violently enforced lockdowns and authoritarian surveillance;
Or it is used as evidence that the virus could be defeated if we just had the will. 3/
https://twitter.com/NDLoubere/status...97671261388800
Nicholas Loubere is "Associate Professor, Lund University. Chinese rural development, migration, and resource extraction. Co-editor @MIC_Journal. Views my own."
As such, he knows about the pandemic response of both Sweden and China.

Unrolled thread.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 12th June 2022 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 13th June 2022, 12:35 AM   #42
dann
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An answer to Nicholas Loubere's Twitter thread:

Quote:
Liqian Ren
The biggest misunderstanding of China's Covid policy is up to this point, significant majority of the public supports Covid Zero
Support now less but still high. Support for vaccine mandate not high, that's why govt didn't push it before.
Quote:
Liqian Ren
As I mentioned before, China is in a quiet campaign to increase old age vaccine. The locations doing well will be releasing numbers.
Hangzhou just said 60yr+ 83.9% vaccinated. The cities are the laggards w Beijing/Shanghai the worst.
https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=173...=spider&for=pc
https://twitter.com/liqian_ren/statu...26453724676096
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th June 2022, 05:47 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
1) Would I want to be confined to my apartment during a lockdown of 60+ days? Obviously not!


*snip*
I'm not going to bother with the rest. You are taking the word of the Chinese government at face value. At the same time, you reject western sources as lies. That is just stupid.

Nothing coming from offical Chinese sources or the heavily regulated forms of social media there can be taken at face value. One of the things Chris Stewart described in the podcast was how fast the government takes down social media posts they don't like.

I started this thread with a link to the podcast because it is an uncensored, first person view of the lockdown in China. It isn't the media. He is not working for a western government. He teaches English to kids in China. He is not being censored by China. But you never bothered to give it a listen, did you?
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:56 PM   #44
dann
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Snip away!
Unlike you, apparently, I don't take anything at face value, be it the Chinese government, Western media, a random podcaster or you. I am a skeptic.
It is obvious why you want me to take a podcaster at face value.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:13 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Snip away!
Unlike you, apparently, I don't take anything at face value, be it the Chinese government, Western media, a random podcaster or you. I am a skeptic.
It is obvious why you want me to take a podcaster at face value.
No. I want you to listen to it and evaluate what you are hearing. You are technically correct when you say you did not take the podcast at face value. You ignored it all together and starting tossing out accusations about media lying. This is willful ignorance.

Ignoring raw information sources is not skepticism.

One of the topics addressed is the govrenment censorship of social media.

When you share posts from Baidu you are sharing a source controlled by the govrenment. This was your link:

https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=173...=spider&for=pc
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Old 14th June 2022, 12:06 AM   #46
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And so what?!

This was my link: post 42
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 14th June 2022 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 19th June 2022, 03:50 AM   #47
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Quote:
Ambassador Nicholas Burns said on Thursday that the zero-COVID policy has "had a major impact" on business sentiment, singling out as especially damaging a two-month lockdown in Shanghai, China's largest city and key financial hub.
(...)
"We're quite cognizant of the need, I think the Chinese government is quite cognizant of the need, to try to get back to a situation of normalcy," Burns said.
China Defends 'Zero-COVID' After US Envoy Warns of Costs (VOA, June 17, 2022)

Yes, that is what he would be concerned about, isn't it?
And I assume that by "back to a situation of normalcy," what he means is 'learning to live with the virus'. In the middle of a pandemic it is so bloody normal to pretend that the pandemic isn't there, at least not really.

Quote:
"It's difficult to convince any of my colleagues in Washington to come here if I tell them that when they do it, they've to quarantine for 14 days before they can have a single meeting," Burns said. "And I understand their unwillingness to do that."

Then stay the hell away and enjoy your freedom to let it rip!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th June 2022, 05:02 AM   #48
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What It's Like

Serenitie Wang from Hong Kong describes her experience of Shanghai's lockdown, both at home in quarantine and at a "fangcang" camp after she got infected.

This was the end of her stay at the camp:
Quote:
Whether it was the saline or fate, I tested negative on my seventh day -- and after a follow-up test 24 hours later I was told to prepare for discharge.
Mr. Sun, the constructor worker, was told the same. But while I was excited, he seemed peaceful and contemplative. He told me he was concerned his neighbors might not allow him back in his compound. "I'm someone who tested positive. Everyone will be scared of me," he said.
I tried to console him, saying the infection would have strengthened his immune system and he would be less likely to fall ill again. He smiled reluctantly and said he hoped the community would be equally understanding.
Shanghai surprise: How I survived 70 days confinement in the world's strictest Covid lockdown (CNN, June 18, 2022)

I am surprised that the Chinese seem to think that you may still be contagious after you have lived through and survived the infection. (Or is it something else they are afraid of?) And I am equally surprised that the author of the article thinks that Covid-19 strengthens your immune system instead of damaging it. The idea that you are "less likely to fall ill again" is, of course, encouraged by the 'learn to live with the virus' covidiots as if there is no such thing as mutations and breakthrough infections.

All in all, I wouldn't want to have to live through a lockdown like the one described in the article, but I don't find it shocking. I would hate the toilet situation, but it doesn't sound worse than most music festivals, which I tend to avoid for the same reason.
And I would much prefer it to having to 'learn to live with the virus' for the rest of my, in that case, probably fairly short life with a couple of 'seasonal' infections a year.


ETA: I am surprised how effectively Shanghai managed to crush the curve. See graph in the article!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 19th June 2022 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 19th June 2022, 09:46 PM   #49
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Shanghai’s Weekend Covid Testing Blitz Shows Cases Contained (Bloomberg, June 20, 2022)
Not quite zero yet:
Quote:
Just two cases found outside quarantine in financial hub
Macau records first cases in 8 months after travel curbs eased
Shanghai’s weekend Covid-testing blitz found the virus seemingly contained, after a spike in cases last week had fanned concern the city would be plunged back into lockdown.
The financial hub reported 13 Covid cases for Sunday and nine on Saturday. Just one case each day was found outside government-mandated quarantine.
(...)
In Beijing, five cases were recorded on Sunday and one on Saturday. The capital resumed all subway services and some bus operations yesterday as cases decline. Nationwide, 24 cases were recorded on Sunday, the fewest in more than three months.
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th June 2022, 11:44 AM   #50
dann
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Good News!

But not the kind of news that fans of let-it-rip-and-learn-to-live-with-the-virus want to hear, of course:
Shanghai records zero COVID cases for first time since March (AlJazeera, June 25, 2022)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 25th June 2022 at 11:54 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 04:01 AM   #51
dann
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Victory, but ...

Shanghai Declares Victory Against Covid as Dandong Flares Again (Bloomberg, June 26, 2022)
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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