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Old 29th May 2022, 06:20 PM   #1
Robin
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On being Agender (or not as the case may be)

If there were only two genders and "man" simply referred to a biological category and had no connotations of expectations of social cultural attributes and behaviour whatsoever then in that sense I am a man.

If, on the other hand, being a man is something that carries an expectation of social cultural attributes or behaviour then in this sense I am not a man.

Firstly because I don't do that kind of expectations. If something seems the right thing to do or I want to do it and it won't hurt anyone then I will do it, but not because of my gender.

Secondly because no one has ever been able to tell me what being masculine or manly even means It is always something like:

Masculinity df: (Some attributes which are seen as much in women as in men)+biologically male

And they never appear to understand that anyone might not find a definition like that satisfactory.

People will say they think that there are only two genders, but then they keep brining up the idea of three being such a thing as manly or masculine.

Now there is a certain quality that I seem to sense in some men which might be what people call "manly" or "masculine" but I have never been able to put my finger on it or put it in words.

So I might feel that certain men are manly or masculine and there might be some sort family resemblance way of defining it.

But I can't see how, even if this is what people mean by it, it can't be any kind of a useful category and in any case most men don't have this quality.

If their was some definition of manly then "unmanly man" might be meaningful, the way that "unneighborly neighbour" can have a meaning.

But without that it is simply an emotional reaction to certain attributes when they occur in men.

So I am not going to identify as a manly man or an unmanly man.

I am just not going to identify as any gender at all. It is not even that significant, but I don't know why it bothers people so much.

Last edited by Robin; 29th May 2022 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 30th May 2022, 02:08 AM   #2
dann
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
... no one has ever been able to tell me what being masculine or manly even means ...

Some of us were never told. We were raised on despicable pop culture like this:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

You know, 'What Women Want', half a century before the movie What Women Want.
It's no wonder some men came to believe that women enjoy being raped. 'They may resist, at first, but it's just for show. A real man knows these things.'
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Last edited by dann; 30th May 2022 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 30th May 2022, 04:21 AM   #3
bluesjnr
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
..snip...but I don't know why it bothers people so much.
Yet you thought it important enough to pop the lid off anyway?
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Old 30th May 2022, 06:12 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Yet you thought it important enough to pop the lid off anyway?
There's a significant difference between "I'm bothered by someone else's behaviors that has no negative impact on my quality of life" and "I'm bothered by people who think my behavior that doesn't have any negative impact on their quality of life is any of their business, invalidate my life experience, and treat me with contempt or hostility for so being."
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Old 30th May 2022, 06:17 AM   #5
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Be whatever gender or lack thereof that works for you. But be a solid person in the community you are a part of and be a benefit to it.

Then you will have identified yourself as a valuable person. What else matters?
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Old 30th May 2022, 06:20 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Yet you thought it important enough to pop the lid off anyway?
Discussing things on a discussion forum? Sheesh, take that stuff somewhere where it’s welcome!
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Old 30th May 2022, 05:30 PM   #7
Robin
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There is a book, "White Fragility", you may know it.

To me this is a nightmare of a book. It is full of these rules like "white women shouldn't cry in front of black people because white women's tears caused black men to be lynched' or 'Before a white person apologises to a black person they should ask their permission"

I don't know why the terrible thing that happened to black people should forever stilt our interactions today.

I would hate to think that anybody would feel that they needed rules like that to behave towards me. I want to know people as they are, not as they feel they should be towards me

I am sure the majority of black people don't want to be treated the way D'Angelo says. I am sure that most trans people aren't expecting any special behaviour in their interactions with others. I remember from the 80's when I know lots of trans women that they were relaxed and friendly and you could sit down and have a natter and a laugh with them without worrying about your behaviour towards them.

I don't know many today and they are just friends of family so I don't find myself talking to them much but it does seem to me to me that, among their peers there are no special behavioural rules.
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Old 30th May 2022, 06:05 PM   #8
Robin
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The thing is this. If you are a person who thinks that expressions like "unmanly man" or "unfeminine woman" are anything more than descriptions of emotional reactions then you are, from my point of view, a gender activist.

No value judgement, you are entitled to be a gender activist and that is fine. But you are a gender activist in just the same way as any gender activist, from my point of view.

So I don't have any gender, in the way a gender activist would use the term.

I am not a man in the sense of "man" that gender activists like Candace Owens and Ben Shapiro would use the word.
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Old 30th May 2022, 06:18 PM   #9
Robin
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If you were asking about my pronouns. I don't care. I know who I am. Use what pronouns you will.

The average heterosexual bloke seems to think that it is an insult to call a guy "she" and do presumably would be insulted themselves by being called "she" so don't tell me that the average heterosexual bloke doesn't care about misgendering.

Me, I genuinely don't care
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Old 30th May 2022, 06:49 PM   #10
Robin
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Some of us were never told. We were raised on despicable pop culture like this:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

You know, 'What Women Want', half a century before the movie What Women Want.
It's no wonder some men came to believe that women enjoy being raped. 'They may resist, at first, but it's just for show. A real man knows these things.'
Yes. There has been lot of crap like that over the years.

Marnie is another film I can't abide.

And there are people today who sneer at me as "woke" for despising this kind of thing.

Last edited by Robin; 30th May 2022 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 30th May 2022, 11:18 PM   #11
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I really and sincerely do not understand this whole “agender” thing. Ok, so if you want to say that “I don’t identify with the traditional masculine/feminine stereotypes or male/female roles?” I am with you! I don’t either. I am a man/male, but I am very happy being NOT the breadwinner. I am a homemaker type who enjoys taking care of the kids, cleaning and cooking. I also like taking care of the yard, smoking meats and building stuff with my bare hands.

All that “men do this; women do that,” stuff is just BS. We are humans and we do the stuff that makes us happy. “Traditional gender roles” are stupid and have no basis in reality.

I have never consciously thought of myself as “a man.” At the same time, I’ve never thought of myself as anything but male. Therefore, I truly don’t understand this whole concept as gender as something different from biological sex. It literally makes no sense to me.
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Old 31st May 2022, 03:19 AM   #12
Robin
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I really and sincerely do not understand this whole “agender” thing. Ok, so if you want to say that “I don’t identify with the traditional masculine/feminine stereotypes or male/female roles?” I am with you! I don’t either. I am a man/male, but I am very happy being NOT the breadwinner. I am a homemaker type who enjoys taking care of the kids, cleaning and cooking. I also like taking care of the yard, smoking meats and building stuff with my bare hands.

All that “men do this; women do that,” stuff is just BS. We are humans and we do the stuff that makes us happy. “Traditional gender roles” are stupid and have no basis in reality.

I have never consciously thought of myself as “a man.” At the same time, I’ve never thought of myself as anything but male. Therefore, I truly don’t understand this whole concept as gender as something different from biological sex. It literally makes no sense to me.
So, quick question. Have you ever been insulted, trivialised, put down or excluded because you fell short in some areas of masculinity?

If so, has this been frequent?

If so has this been at least a source of irritation to you?

Last edited by Robin; 31st May 2022 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 31st May 2022, 05:34 AM   #13
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The "how many sexes" thing is not relevant unless anybody is suggesting that being of a particular sex involves the expectation of behaviour correlated with the sex.

The answer to the question "How many sexes are there that involve an expectation or obligation to behave in a particular way" then the answer is none.

The rest is a question I am happy to defer to biologists over.
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Old 31st May 2022, 05:48 AM   #14
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What do you mean by "expectation" though?

It may not be unreasonable to expect people of the male sex to behave in certain ways if in fact we observe that such behaviour is commonly expressed by these people. It seems to me that the issue is whether such behaviour should be imposed as compulsory even on those people of the male sex who prefer to behave in other ways.
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Old 31st May 2022, 05:54 AM   #15
Robin
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I have never consciously thought of myself as “a man.” At the same time, I’ve never thought of myself as anything but male. Therefore, I truly don’t understand this whole concept as gender as something different from biological sex. It literally makes no sense to me.
Here is an even better question and I hope you will answer it.

What is it that I have said here that makes you think that gender, as something separate to biological sex, makes sense to me either?
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Old 31st May 2022, 05:58 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What do you mean by "expectation" though?

It may not be unreasonable to expect people of the male sex to behave in certain ways if in fact we observe that such behaviour is commonly expressed by these people. It seems to me that the issue is whether such behaviour should be imposed as compulsory even on those people of the male sex who prefer to behave in other ways.
The "expectation" is the concept that there can be such a thing as "unmanly" or "unfeminine" appearance or behaviour.

My position rejects the whole concept of "unmanly" and "unfeminine"
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Old 31st May 2022, 06:05 AM   #17
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Well, obviously there is, in common usage. Behaviour and/or appearance that do not conform to the generally accepted norm for the sex in question. That's why these words exist - to describe this commonly observed phenomenon.

I think the error you are falling into is in imagining that the words "unmanly" or "unwomanly" (much more common than "unfeminine") carry the connotation or implication that the person being describled is therefore not a man or a woman. No such connotation is present. The words are describing appearance or behaviour which is atypical for the sex that the person in question actually is, always was, and always will be.

Indeed, the words can be used in a disparaging sense. Human beings can be rude, and unpleasant. But the people being rude and unpleasant are intending to insult, not to deny they physical reality of the sex of the person they are being rude to.

Getting from "some people may think my appearance and/or behaviour is not male typical, and may - perhaps maliciously - describe me as unmanly" to "therefore I am not a man" is some leap.
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Old 31st May 2022, 06:12 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If there were only two genders and "man" simply referred to a biological category and had no connotations of expectations of social cultural attributes and behaviour whatsoever then in that sense I am a man.

If, on the other hand, being a man is something that carries an expectation of social cultural attributes or behaviour then in this sense I am not a man.

Firstly because I don't do that kind of expectations. If something seems the right thing to do or I want to do it and it won't hurt anyone then I will do it, but not because of my gender.

Secondly because no one has ever been able to tell me what being masculine or manly even means It is always something like:

Masculinity df: (Some attributes which are seen as much in women as in men)+biologically male

And they never appear to understand that anyone might not find a definition like that satisfactory.

People will say they think that there are only two genders, but then they keep brining up the idea of three being such a thing as manly or masculine.

Now there is a certain quality that I seem to sense in some men which might be what people call "manly" or "masculine" but I have never been able to put my finger on it or put it in words.

So I might feel that certain men are manly or masculine and there might be some sort family resemblance way of defining it.

But I can't see how, even if this is what people mean by it, it can't be any kind of a useful category and in any case most men don't have this quality.

If their was some definition of manly then "unmanly man" might be meaningful, the way that "unneighborly neighbour" can have a meaning.

But without that it is simply an emotional reaction to certain attributes when they occur in men.

So I am not going to identify as a manly man or an unmanly man.

I am just not going to identify as any gender at all. It is not even that significant, but I don't know why it bothers people so much.

Is this a spin-off off the transgender threads? I've commented there, but only a few posts, and don't follow them really, except a very occasional skim-through of a random page of so once in while. I ask, because seen stand-alone, it isn't very clear what you're saying. Are you simply trying to say that you don't identify with the 'heavy', traditional (image and expectations and demands and privileges associated with) masculinity of times past (and that lingers on in many places still)? If that's all you're saying, I agree fully with that position. I don't subscribe to traditionally sworn by gender roles either; and indeed, nor do many/most people in my circle. I, and many others, see all of that as an anachronism, that I/we do not identify with. Is that all you meant to convey? Or is it that you think of yourself as agender in some more fundamental way?

For instance, and addressing this might clarify, a bit, what you're trying to say here: Women typically have a wider repertoire to draw from than men in terms of dress and shoes and appearance, all that. And in any case, regardless of which gender does have the larger repertoire, quite obviously someone who doesn't favor one particular gender will have available a repertoire encompassing both genders, which is necessarily (much) larger than the range available to just the one gender. Now again, absolutely, not all women go around in frilly dresses and miniskirts-coupled-with-hot-pants and what have you; but still, regardless of what attire they favor, most women will have worn, if infrequently, many of the other kinds of women's dresses as well, apart from the ones they generally tend to favor. So well, in your case, if you're literally "agender", then you'll have the whole range of dresses that both men and women wear, to choose from. So while understandably you might favor one type of clothing over another, but do you, at times, go around wearing dresses, and skirts (not just kilts, but shorter skirts as well), and heels (not platforms, but out and out women's heels), as well as make-up occasionally (not just touchover, but actually lipstick and stuff), as well as occasionally at least try out hairstyles that are generally considered "feminine"? What about women's lingerie, maybe beachwear, all of that? How does what clothes and shoes and hairstyle and perfume and makeup you wear speak to your "agender"ism? Thinking that through and spelling that out might help us understand what you mean when you describe yourself as agender.
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Old 31st May 2022, 06:20 AM   #19
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
For instance, and addressing this might clarify, a bit, what you're trying to say here: Women typically have a wider repertoire to draw from than men in terms of dress and shoes and appearance, all that. And in any case, regardless of which gender does have the larger repertoire, quite obviously someone who doesn't favor one particular gender will have available a repertoire encompassing both genders, which is necessarily (much) larger than the range available to just the one gender. Now again, absolutely, not all women go around in frilly dresses and miniskirts-coupled-with-hot-pants and what have you; but still, regardless of what attire they favor, most women will have worn, if infrequently, many of the other kinds of women's dresses as well, apart from the ones they generally tend to favor. So well, in your case, if you're literally "agender", then you'll have the whole range of dresses that both men and women wear, to choose from. So while understandably you might favor one type of clothing over another, but do you, at times, go around wearing dresses, and skirts (not just kilts, but shorter skirts as well), and heels (not platforms, but out and out women's heels), as well as make-up occasionally (not just touchover, but actually lipstick and stuff), as well as occasionally at least try out hairstyles that are generally considered "feminine"? What about women's lingerie, maybe beachwear, all of that? How does what clothes and shoes and hairstyle and perfume and makeup you wear speak to your "agender"ism? Thinking that through and spelling that out might help us understand what you mean when you describe yourself as agender.
None of the women’s styles are really anything I’d want to wear.

Except maybe some of those nicely patterned sundresses. And some of the hats. And a purse.
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Old 31st May 2022, 06:44 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
<respectful snip for focus>
Is this a spin-off off the transgender threads?
Sort of. On the LBGO thread there has been some violent moderation, so methinks our OP has broken off here to appease the Mods, PBUT.

Robin, I asked on the Other Thread: do you think 'unmanly man' is an actual gender? Sounds like those Eastern European bodybuilders from SNL ("We're going to pump you up!") talking about Girly Men. Which is, of course, a total joke. Douchey bullying does not an individual's identification make.
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Last edited by Thermal; 31st May 2022 at 07:00 AM. Reason: no, spellcheck, LBDO is not a thing
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Old 31st May 2022, 06:45 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
None of the women’s styles are really anything I’d want to wear.

Except maybe some of those nicely patterned sundresses. And some of the hats. And a purse.
Dude, try on some yoga pants. Your butt will look amazing.
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Old 31st May 2022, 06:48 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dude, try on some yoga pants. Your butt will look amazing.
Leggings give you an incredible freedom of movement too
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Old 31st May 2022, 07:09 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
Leggings give you an incredible freedom of movement too
Remember the unfortunate fashion of lycra biking shorts for men? Junk was just...right out there, in your face, 24/7. Dark times.
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Old 31st May 2022, 07:19 AM   #24
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You say that like it's a bad thing...?
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Old 31st May 2022, 07:20 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Remember the unfortunate fashion of lycra biking shorts for men? Junk was just...right out there, in your face, 24/7. Dark times.
That would explain the "But I thought you were Jewish" comments when I wore them
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Old 31st May 2022, 07:20 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Presentation.

If someone wishes to transition to a different gender, one of the primary ways they do so is by developing their gender presentation - how they dress, their hairstyle, whether to wear makeup, etc. Some people do voice coaching to develop their post-transition voice (I have a friend who did that). Changing one's gender presentation can be a very critical part of the social transition. Pronouns are only a part of that.
My question was about what practical actions others should take, to more properly treat the presenter (of womanhood*) in line with how they're presenting themselves.

Other than actually passing as the opposite sex, to someone who is sexually attracted to the opposite sex, what practical effect is the effort at presentation supposed to have on anyone else? Are they supposed to do anything about it? Acknowledge it? Grant access to sex-reserved spaces because of it? Regard the presenter as fulfilling a gender- or sex-based quota in representation?

Again, my question is not about the presenter. I assume they're doing whatever they can do, to satisfy the desires of their heart. And more power to them. My question is, what are the rest of us supposed to do, in response to that presentation, to satisfy the desires of their heart.
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Old 31st May 2022, 07:31 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
OK, but again this seems to be off topic.

I am sorry now that I didn't simply point that out at theprestige's original off topic question.

I imagine that theprestige would have much greater insight than I on this question as he is more in tune with gender stuff than me.

But to try to relate this to the topic, I could never understand the transition stuff myself.

I mean I am already living as a woman, for.a certain type of woman, and living as a man for a certain type of man

So if I wanted to transition to one of those types of man.and woman and I would already be there.

And the same would go for a trans person. A trans man is already living as a man and a trans woman is already living as a woman before any kind of transition.

So trans women must want to transition to a certain type of woman.

And trans men must want to transition to a certain kind of man.

Which would make it more of a makeover.
To me it's all of a piece. You're talking about gender, I'm talking about gender.

You say you don't identify as any gender, but that's only half of it. The other half is what other people see when they look at you. Do they see an "agender" person? Probably not. Does it matter? Sometimes, it probably does. Should it matter? Sometimes, yes it absolutely should matter.

How should people respond to the fact that you identify as agender? Are they even aware of it? Should they be? You say it doesn't matter to you how they respond to your (a)gender identity. And that suits me just fine. But what about the people for whom it does matter, how others respond to their gender identity? Should others have to conform to one's gender identity, in their responses? To what extent?

Does you identifying as agender mean you still sort with the men when it comes to sports? Do you sort wherever you want? Do you just not particpate at all because being agender means not identifying sufficiently with either category?

Or probably you're not into competitive sports at all, as a participant. So which public restroom do you use, from being "agender"? The men's room? The women's? Either? Neither?
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Old 31st May 2022, 07:38 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Some take a makeover very seriously.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This is true.
The question is whether anyone besides the person getting a gender makeover should take it seriously. And what would taking it seriously look like, in practical terms. Obviously the people enabling the makeover - surgeons, coaches, etc. - should take their client's wishes seriously, and do the best job they can. But what about the rest of us?

I just spent seven days on a cruise ship. One of the other passengers showed up every day in a thoughtfully curated, well put together look that I would call "rockabilly housewife". She was obviously putting in a lot of effort, and having a lot of fun with it. But it didn't really change anything at all about how the rest of us were supposed to treat her, as a practical matter. Nor should it.

Same with Robin's agender identity. Doesn't really change anything as a practical matter. I doubt it's ever even come up as a practical consideration in Robin's daily life.

I suppose he could try using the women's restroom at the office, see what practical results shake out of that.
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Old 31st May 2022, 07:39 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My question was about what practical actions others should take, to more properly treat the presenter (of womanhood*) in line with how they're presenting themselves.

Other than actually passing as the opposite sex, to someone who is sexually attracted to the opposite sex, what practical effect is the effort at presentation supposed to have on anyone else? Are they supposed to do anything about it? Acknowledge it? Grant access to sex-reserved spaces because of it? Regard the presenter as fulfilling a gender- or sex-based quota in representation?

Again, my question is not about the presenter. I assume they're doing whatever they can do, to satisfy the desires of their heart. And more power to them. My question is, what are the rest of us supposed to do, in response to that presentation, to satisfy the desires of their heart.
This really is the whole ball o'wax. It also speaks to the OP question of why it gets to be so thorny an issue for some.
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Old 31st May 2022, 07:45 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This really is the whole ball o'wax. It also speaks to the OP question of why it gets to be so thorny an issue for some.
As far as I can tell, the OP's points boil down to:

- Don't assume I'm your idea of a "manly man" just because I'm a man.

- Don't assume I'm a woman just because I present in some ways that you consider more "feminine".

- Don't demand that I present exactly how you think a man should present, just because I'm a man.

- In fact I think the label "man" is so subjective, and so individually varied, that it suits me to drop it completely. Think of me however you want, but I reject your expectations of how I should think of myself.
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Old 31st May 2022, 07:54 AM   #31
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The reason it's such a thorny issue is that no matter, what you think, feel, act out as, dress as or insist you should be seen as, we're all going to take that on board then pigeon hole you according to our own onboard prejudices, etc.

This always has a, "How do you know when a pilot is in the room?", vibe to me.
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Old 31st May 2022, 08:06 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Remember the unfortunate fashion of lycra biking shorts for men? Junk was just...right out there, in your face, 24/7. Dark times.
Probably for some men it was a fashion choice for that reason. For me it's a necessity to avoid saddle sores as I ride about 10,000 miles a year. It's much easier to avoid getting them than it is getting rid of them.
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Old 31st May 2022, 08:11 AM   #33
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I just don't accept the idea of "identifying with" a gender. I appreciate that others disagree and they can do what they like, but for my part I don't concern myself at all with femininity.

I'm female. I was born a girl, experienced female puberty, menstruation and eventually menopause. These were things my body did, and as such they are part of me, but no more so than my spleen or my lungs or my left leg. I don't identify as these things, they are just components of the body that is me.

Anyone looking at me is likely to read me as female. (On two occasions a mistake has been made, once by a policeman who pulled me over when I was wearing a motorcycle helmet, and once by Jonathan Dimbleby who saw my short hair ahd sweatshirt at a distance in a studio audience and thought he was asking a man to come in on the topic. I presume he should have gone to Specsavers.) The thing is, they will read me as female regardless of my short hair, jeans, trainers and sweatshirt. They will read me as female even if I'm changing the oil in my car while wearing a boiler suit.

I don't care. I'm secure in being female, in always (barring issues with sensory perception) being recognised as being female, irrespective of behaviour or choice of clothing. Not displaying typical female behaviour doesn't make me any less female, nor would poncing around in a tutu make me more female. Does this make me agender? I really don't care. I don't want to go on an over-sexualised, pornified Pride march proudly declaring my agender identity, that's for sure.

What does bug me is men (and it's always men) who say, you're not doing "woman" right, there is a way to be womanly and you are not it, in fact we, with our bad wigs and miniskirts and stiletto heels and pancake makeup, we claim the identity of your sex on the basis of our performance of stereotypes.

Bugger that for a lark.
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Old 31st May 2022, 08:22 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If, on the other hand, being a man is something that carries an expectation of social cultural attributes or behaviour then in this sense I am not a man.
You mean stereotypical male social cultural attributes or behavior. But there is such a wide variety of real men that nobody checks every box on the list and some of the boxes (prone to violence) are better left unchecked.
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Old 31st May 2022, 09:11 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You mean stereotypical male social cultural attributes or behavior. But there is such a wide variety of real men that nobody checks every box on the list and some of the boxes (prone to violence) are better left unchecked.
And no one agrees on what the hell the list entails anyway.
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Old 31st May 2022, 09:24 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
None of the women’s styles are really anything I’d want to wear.

Except maybe some of those nicely patterned sundresses. And some of the hats. And a purse.

Yep, a purse is a great convenience. As are pockets. It's as silly for men not to take advantage of the former, as it is for women to go pocket-less. I myself often carry a satchel, especially when traveling.
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Old 31st May 2022, 09:30 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Sort of. On the LBGO thread there has been some violent moderation, so methinks our OP has broken off here to appease the Mods, PBUT...

Ah ok. If that's actually the case, then I guess it's referential, and may not necessarily be a straightforward case of saying exactly what was meant and meaning exactly what was said; so that my question may not be very relevant, and may not even be answered I guess.
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Old 31st May 2022, 09:32 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Yep, a purse is a great convenience. As are pockets. It's as silly for men not to take advantage of the former, as it is for women to go pocket-less. I myself often carry a satchel, especially when traveling.
It's kind of funny how far guys will go to try to utilize a purse without calling it one. Those little gym bags with strings worn like a backpack were everywhere for a while. I've been seeing locally a full-on military purse for men to carry their phone, wallet keys and all. They don't call it a purse. It's a tactical gear molle transport container. Worn on a shoulder strap.
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Old 31st May 2022, 09:38 AM   #39
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I don't get this thing about women not having pockets. I try quite hard to avoid buying a garment without pockets. Sometimes cheap jeans (those jeggings things) turn out to have stitching that mimics pockets, which is damned annoying. Occasionally a skirt or dress will have no pockets, but in my experience this is the cheaper end of the range and you can find skirts and dresses with pockets no problem. Coats pretty much always have pockets.

Having said that, the capacity of any pocket is limited and a handbag is extremely useful in addition. Even a cotton shopping bag with long-ish handles carried over the shoulder can be a good solution.

Men, I will never judge you for carrying some sort of bag. It's a no-brainer.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 31st May 2022 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 31st May 2022, 09:40 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's kind of funny how far guys will go to try to utilize a purse without calling it one. Those little gym bags with strings worn like a backpack were everywhere for a while. I've been seeing locally a full-on military purse for men to carry their phone, wallet keys and all. They don't call it a purse. It's a tactical gear molle transport container. Worn on a shoulder strap.
I'm partial to Timbuk2's classic messenger bag, extra small. Big enough for a bottle of water, a battery pack, and a tightly-compressed windbreaker. Great for bouncing around town when you want more than just your wallet, but not a whole-ass daypack.
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