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Old 31st May 2022, 06:54 PM   #1
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Shanghai lockdown

https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/t...ou-c-138982110

There has been a COVID lockdown in Shanghai for some time now. Most recent news is that it is now ending. Has not really had a lot of coverage in the US.

However, an American in Shanghai who does a history podcast has made a few updates on the lockdown and just how brutal it has been.

The usual podcast is pretty good. The guy has an interesting sense of humor. But the lockdown has worn the guy down. The link here is an update from two weeks ago. The previous update was just plain grim.

One of the things he pointed out was the lockdown was only going to be for 4 days and people did not need to stock up much. It has been several weeks now. He does go into detail on what it has been like.
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Old 31st May 2022, 08:59 PM   #2
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Thanks, I'll check that out later. The name of the podcast is The History of China.

I already think, from what I've seen, that they are overreacting and doing more harm than good. I think if I were an American in China I would book the earliest possible flight I can out of the country. But I also understand that it may not be so easy, especially if he has family there.
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Old 31st May 2022, 09:13 PM   #3
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Looks like Xi no longer has the Mandate of Heaven.
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Old 31st May 2022, 09:15 PM   #4
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Unfortunately, the only mandate he needs is that of the CCP.
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Old 31st May 2022, 09:35 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Thanks, I'll check that out later. The name of the podcast is The History of China.

I already think, from what I've seen, that they are overreacting and doing more harm than good. I think if I were an American in China I would book the earliest possible flight I can out of the country. But I also understand that it may not be so easy, especially if he has family there.
He met his wife there and they have a kid. But I think he might be planning to leave after this.

In some Q and A over the years he has addressed what happens with the podcast when he reaches the 20th century. In general he has stated that he is not worried since the podcast is not even available in China. But it is probably best if he heads home before that. He is in the Ming dynasty now.

Once a year, he reposts the British intelligence reports that about the Tiananmen Square incident. The reports are way more horrific than what was captured on camera in the square.
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Old 31st May 2022, 09:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Unfortunately, the only mandate he needs is that of the CCP.
eh.

Needless and easily avoidable own-goals like this, with not even a fig-leaf of a scapegoat is what takes years off a totalitarian regime.
It shows that, contrary to propaganda, the guy in charge is not infallible.
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Old 31st May 2022, 09:57 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Has not really had a lot of coverage in the US.

There has been a lot of coverage in Europe, as was the case whenever New Zealand had another outbreak. There was no coverage whenever ZeroCovid was going well, and we have heard nothing at all about the provinces of China where ZeroCovid has been going smoothly with all the freedom it entails to move about and party without worrying about catching the virus. Stories about that would ruin the ideology that Omicron is invincible that we have to 'live with' (= die from) the virus. It is the same reason why hardly anybody in Europe has heard about Cuba's pandemic strategy, I assume. Why mention that it can be done? According to the Danish health authorities, herd immunity was just around the corner in January, and as late as March, 'Omicron was nothing to worry about. It was "a 'natural' vaccine," a so-called "booster infection," that in combination with the vaccines would give us "super-immunity"! The long-haulers disagree. So would the thousands of people who were killed by the 'natural vaccine' if they could.
Den spanske syge er et pragteksempel på, hvordan pandemier ender (Videnskab.dk, March 14, 2022)

I was surprised that it was even mentioned yesterday that Shanghai was opening up again: Shanghai åbner delvist efter lang corona-nedlukning (TV2.dk, May 31, 2022)


I posted this comment to an article in Washington Post, May 28, 2022, Covid was vanishing last Memorial Day. Cases are five times higher now.:

Quote:
Some countries know how to tackle an airborne virus like SARS-CoV-2:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post13808681

And they are more than willing to teach us how to do it: All it takes is vaccinations and consistent use of face masks. Vaccinations alone don't do the trick:
12 days without Covid-19 deaths (Granma.cu, May 24, 2022)

On Sep 10, 2021, my own country declared that Covid-19 was no longer of concern to the nation, and on Jan 31, 2022, all restrictions stopped:
Quote:
Two months ago, Denmark was riding high. The European nation lifted all remaining domestic coronavirus restrictions as the government declared Covid-19 was no longer "an illness which is a critical threat to society."
With a successful vaccine rollout in their back pocket, Danes essentially returned to pre-pandemic daily life. They visited nightclubs and restaurants without showing a "Covid passport," used public transport without having to wear a mask and met in large numbers without restrictions.
The optimism of mid-September has been short-lived.
Denmark ditched its Covid rules two months ago. Now it's joined other EU nations in mulling new restrictions (CNN, Nov 9, 2021)
Nobody masks up anymore, and since Sep 10, 2021, the death toll from Covid-19 has more than doubled. Even now, in late-May, the number of daily new confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million corresponds to the weekly number in 2021. However, the number of daily new registered cases has decreased the Trumpian way: no testing = no cases.

This disease can be beat. Where there's will, there's a way.
But if the will isn't there ...

And the will obviously isn't there in Europe and America. New Zealand also gave up earlier this year. It would have been so bloody easy to beat the virus in 2020 with a concerted effort. The ZeroCovid countries proved it. It is more difficult now, but still feasible, which is what Shanghai shows us. That's why the Western media isn't really interested in the story.
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Old 31st May 2022, 10:43 PM   #8
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https://www.worldometers.info/corona...untry/denmark/

But basically everyone other than China has thrown in the towel already.

You would be saving a handful of old people at the expense of everyone else's freedom and the economy. Children too. Not worth it.
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Old 1st June 2022, 01:39 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
https://www.worldometers.info/corona...untry/denmark/

But basically everyone other than China has thrown in the towel already.

You would be saving a handful of old people at the expense of everyone else's freedom and the economy. Children too. Not worth it.

No, everyone hasn't thrown in the towel, considerably more than "a handful" died, more than one million in the USA alone, and still counting.
They aren't all old, and there are children, too: USA, COVID-19 deaths by age

For some reason, you don't mention the people suffering from the long-term effects of Covid-19, some of them probably life-long. Also still counting.
That you ignore this makes it obvious that you are in the same kind of denial as the Western media. Why not tell us the stories about the Chinese provinces that are doing fine? Why not tell us about the people living there who don't want to learn to 'live with Covid'?

As for your "everyone else's freedom": Are you talking about the freedom of teachers, students, drivers, hospital and retail workers, who are now free to get infected with an unpredictable virus once or maybe even a couple of times a year?

Not worth it!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st June 2022, 02:04 AM   #10
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I think that teachers, students, drivers, hospital and retail workers have been getting infected with unpredictable viruses once or maybe even a couple of times a year for all of human history. (Although it will probably actually be more like once every three years on average in the long term). It's unfortunate, but it's part of life that can't be entirely avoided unless you want to lock down entire cities to prevent it, as we are currently seeing in China. And the lockdown is not only in Shanghai.
Quote:
More than 208 million people in 26 cities are estimated to be under some form of lockdown or COVID-19 restrictions as of May 23, accounting for 20.5 per cent of China’s economic output.
Look, I will even grant you that China's Zero Covid policy worked in the past. But the benefit of the policy is now diminishing while the costs of maintaining it are rising. At some point the lines will cross (I believe they already have crossed) and costs will exceed the benefit.

China’s exports suffer reversal of fortune as world shakes off Covid lockdowns (FT)
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Old 1st June 2022, 02:59 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I think that teachers, students, drivers, hospital and retail workers have been getting infected with unpredictable viruses once or maybe even a couple of times a year for all of human history. (Although it will probably actually be more like once every three years on average in the long term). It's unfortunate, but it's part of life that can't be entirely avoided unless you want to lock down entire cities to prevent it, as we are currently seeing in China. And the lockdown is not only in Shanghai.

You do know that there is a difference between the kinds of infections we got before SARS-CoV-2 and now, don't you? How often we are going to get Covid-19 remains to be seen. One million Americans (and more than 6,000 Danes) only got it once. As for the rest of us, it depends on the mutations that the virus still has in store and on the attitude to the virus that the authorities choose, so the prospects aren't good.
Pandemic sees increase in Chinese support for regime, decrease in views towards the U.S. (chinadatalab.ucsd.edu, June 30, 2020)
China's zero COVID strategy has the support of its people (Asia Nikkei, Nov 6, 2021)

Quote:
Look, I will even grant you that China's Zero Covid policy worked in the past. But the benefit of the policy is now diminishing while the costs of maintaining it are rising. At some point the lines will cross (I believe they already have crossed) and costs will exceed the benefit.

Yes, I know. That is the Western attitude: We don't give a **** how many people are killed and maimed by this disease. A cost-benefit analysis decides if people live or die. If the costs of maintaining lives and health are rising, profits win over lives and health every time. After all, what is the point of health and lives if not to boost the bottom line?!
What you'll grant me is the reason why ZeroCovid should have been the goal from the very beginning. SARS-CoV-2 was on China. Omicron is on the ****** pandemic policies of politicians in the rest of the world.
How China overcame the Covid-19 pandemic (ORF online, April 20, 2020)

Quote:

So in the pandemic, the Chinese government has valued people's lives more than exports? I can't object to that attitude.

By the way, we always hear about how Russia and China try to block news from the West.
How come we never see news about the pandemic from Xinhua?
WEF applauds China's commitment to combat COVID-19 pandemic: senior healthcare executive (Xinhua, May 26, 2022)
Or from Granma.cu?
Starting May 31, there is no face mask mandate (+ Video) (Granma.cu, May 31, 2022)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st June 2022, 03:36 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So in the pandemic, the Chinese government has valued people's lives more than exports? I can't object to that attitude.
I love the way you're swallowing every lie the CCP promulgates.

They've understated the case load by tens or hundreds of thousands; they've understated the death toll by hundreds hundreds or thousands, and while they might have contained the outbreak in Shanghai at unbelievable cost, they will have continuous outbreaks across the country and will ultimately give away the zero-covid ideal.

They're already a trillion bucks short, and the economic pressure will win, and they'll end up with the worst of both worlds.
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Old 1st June 2022, 05:03 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, everyone hasn't thrown in the towel, considerably more than "a handful" died, more than one million in the USA alone, and still counting.
They aren't all old, and there are children, too: USA, COVID-19 deaths by age

For some reason, you don't mention the people suffering from the long-term effects of Covid-19, some of them probably life-long. Also still counting.
That you ignore this makes it obvious that you are in the same kind of denial as the Western media. Why not tell us the stories about the Chinese provinces that are doing fine? Why not tell us about the people living there who don't want to learn to 'live with Covid'?

As for your "everyone else's freedom": Are you talking about the freedom of teachers, students, drivers, hospital and retail workers, who are now free to get infected with an unpredictable virus once or maybe even a couple of times a year?

Not worth it!
It's interesting what is blame worthy and what is not. China overreacting to prevent a mass death and mass disabling event for their population is authoritarianism run amok, but the US letting covid rip a bloody swath through the population is not worth mentioning anymore.

Of course the obvious reason for the criticism is that many supply chains pass through or originate in China, and their refusal to allow covid to kill uninhibited is really screwing things up for the Western countries who have already decided on a "only the strong survive" approach. The West is making their blood sacrifice to keep the economy healthy, but they can't make China keep their factories open and it's driving them nuts.

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Old 1st June 2022, 05:40 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That you ignore this makes it obvious that you are in the same kind of denial as the Western media. Why not tell us the stories about the Chinese provinces that are doing fine? Why not tell us about the people living there who don't want to learn to 'live with Covid'?

As for your "everyone else's freedom": Are you talking about the freedom of teachers, students, drivers, hospital and retail workers, who are now free to get infected with an unpredictable virus once or maybe even a couple of times a year?

Not worth it!
I think you need to listen to the updates in the podcast. There were people starving to death because of China's strategy. People testing positive were being sealed into their apartments when they tested positive. By sealed I mean doors and windows welded shut.

There does have to be a balance. At some point the solutions are worse than the virus. Shanghai has just seen that.
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Old 1st June 2022, 07:11 AM   #15
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People dying of heart attacks, strokes or even just asthma attacks because the hospitals refuse to take in patients until they've been tested.

Small children removed from their families for more than a week.

In some cases, people catching covid in the isolation centers, after being sent there because someone in their apartment block tested positive.

Yeah, China's response has been exemplary.
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Old 1st June 2022, 07:22 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I love the way you're swallowing every lie the CCP promulgates.

They've understated the case load by tens or hundreds of thousands; they've understated the death toll by hundreds hundreds or thousands, and while they might have contained the outbreak in Shanghai at unbelievable cost, they will have continuous outbreaks across the country and will ultimately give away the zero-covid ideal.

They're already a trillion bucks short, and the economic pressure will win, and they'll end up with the worst of both worlds.

For the past six months or so, you have vouched for letting it rip, so it is no surprise that you hope that "the economic pressure will win, and they'll end up with the worst of both worlds", but it is not what the article says.
I don't see anything to back up your claim of "tens or hundreds of thousands" of cases or "hundreds hundreds or thousands" deaths having gone unregistered. As for unregistered cases, this is how Western countries do it.

I notice that nobody seems to doubt that Cuba has now accomplished ZeroCovid daily deaths. They did so without following an actual ZeroCovid strategy, mainly by means of extensive vaccinations of the whole population (in children as young as 2 years of age) and face-mask mandates. The latter have now come to an end, but not because Cuba has persuaded its citizens that it's preferable to 'live with the virus' and Omicron as a safe "booster infection". That propaganda lie seems to have been swallowed whole by people in the Western world ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 1st June 2022, 07:35 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
People dying of heart attacks, strokes or even just asthma attacks because the hospitals refuse to take in patients until they've been tested.

Small children removed from their families for more than a week.

In some cases, people catching covid in the isolation centers, after being sent there because someone in their apartment block tested positive.

Yeah, China's response has been exemplary.

You mean like this? Deaths From Heart Disease and Stroke Rose Sharply During the Pandemic
Or this? For Parents: Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children (MIS-C) associated with COVID-19
Or is it more like this? US: Border Program’s Huge Toll on Children
This? People catching COVID at hospitals in record numbers
Oh, the inhumanity of China's response! It could never happen here ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st June 2022, 07:55 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I never claimed that the response of the US, UK or other western countries was perfect, or that no harms happened.

You are the one claiming that the Chinese response was so much better.

It wasn't and it isn't.
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:00 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's interesting what is blame worthy and what is not. China overreacting to prevent a mass death and mass disabling event for their population is authoritarianism run amok, but the US letting covid rip a bloody swath through the population is not worth mentioning anymore.

Of course the obvious reason for the criticism is that many supply chains pass through or originate in China, and their refusal to allow covid to kill uninhibited is really screwing things up for the Western countries who have already decided on a "only the strong survive" approach. The West is making their blood sacrifice to keep the economy healthy, but they can't make China keep their factories open and it's driving them nuts.

I know very little about the way China has handled the pandemic, but I have been following Cuba's pandemic response since the beginning. I know that every other article about Cuba in the Western media is nothing but lies, and yet I have been surprised by the extent to which the country's successful handling of the pandemic has been ignored.

And in the case of Cuba, of course, it has nothing to do with worries about supply chains. On the contrary, Cuba's loss of its revenue from tourism during the pandemic was seen as an opportunity to tighten the screws:

Quote:
Over fifty of the Trump measures were introduced during the pandemic, as Cuba struggled to import medical ventilators, PPE, syringes, and oxygen tanks for its COVID-19 response.
The US Blockade Against Cuba Is an Act of War

Keeping the economy healthy by letting workers get infected seems to have become the definition of the one and only true freedom. I can imagine the outcry if Xi had made the suggestion that people should sacrifice their lives for the sake of the economy. That one has already been completely forgotten at this point. What's another million people among friends? And why can't those bloody Chinese in Shanghai see that that's the only way to do it? The humane way!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:01 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
It wasn't and it isn't.

You have your freedom to believe the lies.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:10 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You have your freedom to believe the lies.
Who do you think is lying to me?
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:25 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Looks like Xi no longer has the Mandate of Heaven.
One can hope. I think he lost it, in the original meaning, a long time ago.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:27 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
https://www.worldometers.info/corona...untry/denmark/

But basically everyone other than China has thrown in the towel already.

You would be saving a handful of old people at the expense of everyone else's freedom and the economy. Children too. Not worth it.

I think the words of the Ghost of Christmas Present in "A Christmas Carol" applies: Be careful about talking about decresing the surplus population,you might well be part of the surplus.
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Old 1st June 2022, 02:11 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You have your freedom to believe the lies.
Dude,

Wollery used to live in China.

I used to travel to the Shanghai suburbs a lot a few years back. I have traveled to China quite a few times starting back in the mid 90s. Only been back once as a tourist since 2018.

Listen to the updates I linked to that are coming from somebody in China. This is not the media lying to you.

But you already admitted you don't know much about what is happening in China, so maybe turn down the ignorance a tad and educate yourself rather than making accusations without actually knowing a damn thing.
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Old 1st June 2022, 02:51 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Dude,

Wollery used to live in China.

I used to travel to the Shanghai suburbs a lot a few years back. I have traveled to China quite a few times starting back in the mid 90s. Only been back once as a tourist since 2018.

Listen to the updates I linked to that are coming from somebody in China. This is not the media lying to you.

But you already admitted you don't know much about what is happening in China, so maybe turn down the ignorance a tad and educate yourself rather than making accusations without actually knowing a damn thing.
I think he sees the Chinese Communist Party is in charge, and therefore thinks China is a "Progressive" country, and anything bad about it is a Capitalist Lie.
It's not like that kind of behavior is anything new to the extreme left.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

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Old 1st June 2022, 11:37 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
Who do you think is lying to me?

The ones who aren't interested in ZeroCovid or other strategies that are more effective than 'letting it rip and each man for himself', 'SARS-CoV-2 = flu', 'Omicron is a natural vaccination'. The ones who only reported about New Zealand whenever there was an outbreak and weren't interested when the Kiwis could live their lives without worrying about the virus.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st June 2022, 11:49 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Dude,

Wollery used to live in China.

I used to travel to the Shanghai suburbs a lot a few years back. I have traveled to China quite a few times starting back in the mid 90s. Only been back once as a tourist since 2018.

Listen to the updates I linked to that are coming from somebody in China. This is not the media lying to you.

But you already admitted you don't know much about what is happening in China, so maybe turn down the ignorance a tad and educate yourself rather than making accusations without actually knowing a damn thing.

Somebody in China - unlike the other 1.402 billion, I assume.
My ignorance about what is happening in China is a fact, not an 'admission'. However, I do know the media and its reporting about the pandemic. If you know how decisions about the pandemic response is made in China, you should educate us. Is it something you analyzed when you went there as a tourist? I don't remember claiming to know anything about what is going on in China. My observations have been about the media.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd June 2022, 11:25 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Somebody in China - unlike the other 1.402 billion, I assume.
My ignorance about what is happening in China is a fact, not an 'admission'. However, I do know the media and its reporting about the pandemic. If you know how decisions about the pandemic response is made in China, you should educate us. Is it something you analyzed when you went there as a tourist? I don't remember claiming to know anything about what is going on in China. My observations have been about the media.
Most of my trips to China were for work. Thank you for showing a total inability to grasp context since I have only every been there as a tourist once.

This whole thread is not about the media. Media coverage of the lockdown has been sparse other than noting that it happened. But if you had, you know, tried listening to what is being said in that podcast you would not be typing such utter BS in this thread. One of thing things discussed in the podcast is China's efforts at cleansing social media to keep out opinions and personal narratives about what is going on.

Do you actually have anything here to say that is on topic or can we expect more bilge that is unrelated to what is really going on?
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Old 9th June 2022, 11:14 AM   #29
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Quote:
China’s zero-Covid policy has been successful in containing the Omicron variant and keeping the death toll low, compared with countries such as the UK and the US. Daily case numbers have been near three-month lows with a seven-day average of about 150, down from a peak of about 30,000 in April.

But many people are frustrated at the prospect that the zero-Covid policy could be extended into a fourth year. “The Covid zero policy is a total madness: it’s inhumane and not very successful,” said a Beijing-based art curator. “The governments in Shanghai and Beijing lie to people’s faces. In Shanghai, they said they wouldn’t lock down . . . then at the end it was 60 days,” the person added.
China digs in for permanent zero-Covid with testing and quarantine regime (Financial Times, June 9, 2022)

As we all know by now, the only humane thing to is is to let people die and get long Covid. Nobody can deny how and successful that attitude has been. Trying to save people's lives and health, that's ... that's ... COMMUNISM!
Daily new confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million people: China, UK, USA
Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 deaths: China, UK USA (And no, it's not per million, but you can choose that option!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th June 2022, 02:00 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
As we all know by now, the only humane thing to is is to let people die and get long Covid. Nobody can deny how and successful that attitude has been. Trying to save people's lives and health, that's ... that's ... COMMUNISM!
Daily new confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million people: China, UK, USA
Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 deaths: China, UK USA (And no, it's not per million, but you can choose that option!)

Just checking, you did read the disclaimer to those graphs didn’t you?
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Old 9th June 2022, 04:37 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
Just checking, you did read the disclaimer to those graphs didn’t you?
I'm pretty sure he did not listen to the podcast I linked to at the start since he keeps going off on the media coverage without having any idea what is actually happening.

Speaking of media, it looks like the lockdown is going back on.

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/...wn-2022-06-09/
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Old 9th June 2022, 08:39 PM   #32
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Yes, that's what the article said: that the lockdown was going back on, but I guess you didn't read the FT article.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th June 2022, 09:11 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
Just checking, you did read the disclaimer to those graphs didn’t you?

I know about the disclaimers. As always, graphs can't show you what isn't reported. And what is reported depends on the what is being registered.
The latter is the reason why the graphs of most Western countries no longer give you a good impression of daily new confirmed cases: When you stop testing anybody who isn't about to be hospitalized, the majority of new cases will go untested, and thus unregistered and thus unreported.
So in a comparison of countries, the ones that test will stand out: "Comparisons across countries are affected by differences in testing policies and reporting methods." (Even Trump was aware of that!)
According to the FT article, China is ramping up testing. The majority of Western countries appear to be doing the opposite.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th June 2022, 06:13 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, that's what the article said: that the lockdown was going back on, but I guess you didn't read the FT article.
It's behind a paywall, so no.
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Old 11th June 2022, 04:33 PM   #35
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I think part of he reason for this 'Zero-Covid' strategy of China has a lot to do with the fact that the Sinovac vaccine is actually pretty ineffective against the Omicron wave.

https://news.yale.edu/2022/01/20/vac...micron-variant
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00079-6

So unlike he West where the vaccine has mostly relegated Covid-19 to being a (relatively) minor nuisance in China a major outbreak would probably be very bad. So that might help explain part of why there is still a desperate drive to keep things locked down every time even a small outbreak occurs.
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Old 12th June 2022, 01:23 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
It's behind a paywall, so no.

It wasn't when I posted the link, but yeah, I can see that it is now.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th June 2022, 01:51 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Stylesjl View Post
I think part of he reason for this 'Zero-Covid' strategy of China has a lot to do with the fact that the Sinovac vaccine is actually pretty ineffective against the Omicron wave.

https://news.yale.edu/2022/01/20/vac...micron-variant
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00079-6

So unlike he West where the vaccine has mostly relegated Covid-19 to being a (relatively) minor nuisance in China a major outbreak would probably be very bad. So that might help explain part of why there is still a desperate drive to keep things locked down every time even a small outbreak occurs.

For some reason, you seem to equate ZeroCovid with desperation. It worked wonders where it was attempted - until the arrival of Omicron, which made many countries so desperate that they gave up trying to maintain ZeroCovid. And it shows, unfortunately.
China's vaccine problems have been solved - and it's not by resorting to Western vaccines: China, Cuba Present Jointly-Produced 'Pan-Corona Vaccine' (Telesur, June 3, 2022)
Cuba already tested a combination of the Chinese Sinopharm with a booster shot of the Cuban Soberana Plus in Cienfuegos last year.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
(short video, 0:55)

And, as mentioned before, Cuba appears to be doing better than any other country on earth - or at least, of any other country I have heard about.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 12th June 2022, 02:07 AM   #38
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Danish journalist Philip Roin reports from Shanghai. (DR.dk)
Konstante coronatest holder Shanghai åben, men konsekvenserne kan blive store
Constantly repeated corona tests keep Shanghai open, but it may have major consequences

Unfortunately, I can't link directly to the article, which consists mainly of photos, short videos and comments on his cell phone. Scroll down to the photo of the journalist's cell phone with a photo of him wearing a face mask on the screen.

Philip Roin also wrote about his experience with the Shanghai lockdown:
DR-journalist har været indespærret i 57 dage i Shanghai: ’Det har været et mentalt og fysisk maraton’ (DR.dk, May 28, 2022)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th June 2022, 05:50 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Danish journalist Philip Roin reports from Shanghai. (DR.dk)
Konstante coronatest holder Shanghai åben, men konsekvenserne kan blive store
Constantly repeated corona tests keep Shanghai open, but it may have major consequences

Unfortunately, I can't link directly to the article, which consists mainly of photos, short videos and comments on his cell phone. Scroll down to the photo of the journalist's cell phone with a photo of him wearing a face mask on the screen.

Philip Roin also wrote about his experience with the Shanghai lockdown:
DR-journalist har været indespærret i 57 dage i Shanghai: ’Det har været et mentalt og fysisk maraton’ (DR.dk, May 28, 2022)
Could not find what you were pointing out in the first link. Second one is two weeks old. It also does not get into the excesses of Shanghai's lock down. Although it does get into the results of it with the number of expats wanting to leave. It also pointed out that the virus changed but China's way of dealing with it did not.

The problem with the lockdowns is that they have been extreme. The govrenment told people they did not need to stock up since they were just going to lockdown for 4 days. That turned into 60+.

Deliveries of food and other supplies did not keep up with demand and some people appeared to have actually starved to death.

People who tested positive were sealed in their homes. Sealed sometimes went as far as welding apartment doors shut.

People who were not positive but had family members were positive ended up sealed out of homes with little recourses.

Access to hospitals for things other than COVID pretty much ended.

I do understand that the greater the population density the more extreme the measures to contain a virus are needed. But the govrenment in China has not been able to adjust their strategy to the situation they are facing. Omicron is not nearly as bad as the original strain and solutions need to be more flexible.

Depending on a hide bound autocracy that cannot even accept criticism hurts a lot of people in the end. Resources that went into silencing the outcries of govrenment excess would have been better used to solve problems instead of hiding them. But that is what you get with government's like China.
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Old 12th June 2022, 06:18 PM   #40
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1) Would I want to be confined to my apartment during a lockdown of 60+ days? Obviously not!

2) Would I hate it even more if I hadn't prepared with supplies for 60+ days? Obviously!

3) Did the lockdown last longer than expected? Yes, obviously!

4) "some people appeared to have actually starved to death." Did some people actually starve to death? If some people actually did, how many? How many would have died of Covid-19 by letting it rip?

5) "Access to hospitals for things other than COVID pretty much ended." That's bad, obviously. Are you aware of the build-up of waiting lists "for things other than Covid" in most of the Western world? Are you aware of the people who were left to die of Covid without even being visited by a doctor, without oxygen, with only palliative care, i.e. opiates, which may relieve the pain but also make you stop breathing?

6) You say that you "do understand that the greater the population density the more extreme the measures to contain a virus are needed. But the govrenment in China has not been able to adjust their strategy to the situation they are facing. Omicron is not nearly as bad as the original strain and solutions need to be more flexible."
But
a) you don't seem to understand that the greater the transmissibility of a virus is, the more extreme the measures to contain it must be in order to stop it,
b) so China actually did adjust its strategy to the situation they were facing,
c) and in some of the most vaccinated countries, Omicron has killed more people than any other strain in spite of the vaccines that had been administered between the arrival of the first strain and the arrival of Omicron and despite your claim that Omicron "is not nearly as bad as the original strain." And it did so in a much shorter time frame. Why do you think that is if it "is not nearly as bad as the original strain"?

7) Depending on so-called free and democratic regimes that lie to people about the virulence of an infectious disease and call it an "Omicron booster infection", "a 'natural' vaccine" that gives you "super immunity", hurts a lot of people in the end. And for some of those people, the ones who got long Covid and the ones who are still getting it, the end is not nearly in sight. Resources that went into coming up with those lies "would have been better used to solve problems instead of hiding them. But that is what you get with government's like" the ones in the Nordic democracies.

That is one point where China has turned out to be immensely more effective and spared its population the horrors we have seen and are still seeing in the West. But tell us about long-Covid sufferers in China if you know anything. There must be at least a few, but it seems to be one of those things that are never brought up in comparisons with democratic regimes, for some reason.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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