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Tags Florida incidents , shooting incidents , texting incidents

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Old 16th January 2014, 07:49 PM   #521
marplots
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
If we, as a society, think we are better off without them, they should be gone.
Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
I was wondering who this "We" is?
It's the first definition here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/we
"I and the rest of a group that includes me"

The modifying phrase, "as a society" is also important. Unless you intend to make gun ownership mandatory, you will always face the possibility that others will get rid of theirs, no matter what you do.
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Old 16th January 2014, 08:20 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
The problem with the FBI stats you quote is they don't tell the whole story. If 2 gangbanging drug dealers who know each other get into an argument and one shoots the other the FBI reports it as an acquaintance murder, and then people like you say "you're more likely to use your gun against your family". No, I'm not.
Why is it that "things gangbangers do" is always portrayed as something that inaccurately skews gun statistics - as if they're not people, and the things "they" do to each other should be somehow counted differently from the things "normal people" have done to each other? If a "gangbanger" kills a friend or a relative, then "acquaintance murder" is 100% accurate and exactly where the statistic belongs.
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Old 16th January 2014, 08:29 PM   #523
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Might the alleged shooter have been acting to protect himself from the debilitating respiratory disease called “popcorn lung"... thought to result from exposure to diacetyl, a chemical found in fake butter popcorn flavoring?
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Old 16th January 2014, 08:40 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I'm anti-gun but carry a pen knife. Does this make me a hypocrite?
Of course not. Many things that are technically not weapons may be quite easily be used as same. Bic Crystals are my favorites if I ever fly again and for places with metal detectors. There are some made of polymer for use as weapons, but the way they are sold pretty much means any jackass doing security knows about them (Amazon reviewers often point this out in the review section.)*


Note: I highly value people who do actual security work and do it well. The airport people are not it and the procedures are atrocious - unless they are meant to purposely anger customers.
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Old 16th January 2014, 09:30 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
Johannes Mehserle served less than a year in jail for shooting a handcuffed man in the back. That was also a pretty big story. I could go on.
I'm not saying I agree with WildCat's phrasing though.
Yup. I do agree that it does happen. Part of it probably depends on where a person lives.
For instance, where I live it is very rare an officer even has to pull his weapon much less shoot somebody. And when there is a shooting it is a really big deal.
Yeah, I think it was the phrasing that got me going.
I guess in other areas of the country its a daily occurrence but I still don't think cops "routinely" get away with murder.

Last edited by AbleSugar; 16th January 2014 at 09:34 PM. Reason: Spell check made me curse
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Old 16th January 2014, 10:05 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
That's because everyone has seen what happens once registration happens - laws get passed in which previously legal registered guns are now illegal.
not a complete ban, but severe restrictions.
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Old 16th January 2014, 10:08 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
People carrying guns in public have no effect on your life or anyone else's, none whatsoever.
tell that to the wife and child. Seriously, man up and tell them.

And don't play semantic games with me, if he wasn't carrying the child would have a father today.
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Last edited by DavidJames; 16th January 2014 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 16th January 2014, 10:24 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
People carrying guns in public have no effect on your life or anyone else's, none whatsoever.
Other than the dead guy in the OP. Did you even read the OP?

Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
tell that to the wife and child. Seriously, man up and tell them.

And don't play semantic games with me, if he wasn't carrying the child would have a father today.
This. ^^^^
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Old 16th January 2014, 10:35 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Why is it that "things gangbangers do" is always portrayed as something that inaccurately skews gun statistics - as if they're not people, and the things "they" do to each other should be somehow counted differently from the things "normal people" have done to each other? If a "gangbanger" kills a friend or a relative, then "acquaintance murder" is 100% accurate and exactly where the statistic belongs.
The problem is when anti-gunners misrepresent the statistics as showing that a suburban accountant family man is suddenly a danger to his friends or relatives because he bought a gun. If those engaged in habitual criminal activity or associations were excluded then you'd probably find that the impact on his (or his friends and family) safety would be negligible (i.e. not particularly positive or negative). Whereas criminals would, due to a correlation with dangerous lifestyle and associations, not causation with firearms, have a relatively high likelihood of being involved in a shooting.

i.e. (from wiki):

People with a criminal record were also more likely to die as homicide victims.
Between 1990 and 1994, 75% of all homicide victims age 21 and younger in the city of Boston had a prior criminal record.
In Philadelphia, the percentage of those killed in gun homicides that had prior criminal records increased from 73% in 1985 to 93% in 1996.
In Richmond, Virginia, the risk of gunshot injury is 22 times higher for those males involved with crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vio...ates#Homicides
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Old 16th January 2014, 11:14 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Other than a total ban, or ban of all guns except for active police, what kind of change in gun laws would have prevented the theater shooting?
I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I'm going to answer it anyway.

Like I have said before, two changes to American gun laws would prevent incidents like this from happening.

1. Repeal the Second Amendment. Change gun ownership from a right to a privilege. Sure, amending the constitution isn't a quick or an easy process. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

2. Remove "self defence" as a valid reason for gun ownership. This way, licensed hunters like RennaisanceBiker, sport shooters, park rangers, etc. would still be permitted to own guns, but not your average joe in the street who doesn't need one.

Other changes would probably also be effective (mental health checks, etc) but these two changes, in my opinion, are most important.

Finally, these laws need to be effectively enforced. Illegal and unregistered guns must be confiscated and destroyed. Possessors of illegal and unregistered guns must be prosecuted and given an appropriate penalty. Reduce the number of guns in the country, and you will make it harder for criminals to procure them illegally.

The vicious cycle of gun culture feeding into gun ownership feeding into gun culture needs to be broken. In America, this probably would not be anything but a slow process, but it needs to happen.

PS. once again, I have chosen to make a detailed reply to a gun thread right before a weekend. I apologise that I am unlikely to return to this thread until next week, at which point it will probably have had several hundred more posts.
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Old 16th January 2014, 11:15 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
People carrying guns in public have no effect on your life or anyone else's, none whatsoever.
Unless you happen to get into an argument with them and they pull out their gun and shoot you.
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Old 17th January 2014, 12:19 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Unless you happen to get into an argument with them and they pull out their gun and shoot you.
That's already illegal..., and carries a heavy prison term...so people won't do that...
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Old 17th January 2014, 12:30 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Of course not. Many things that are technically not weapons may be quite easily be used as same. Bic Crystals are my favorites if I ever fly again and for places with metal detectors.
I was told many years ago that CIA agents carried those (back when the caps were pointy and not hollow-tipped) and agents were taught 9 different ways to kill someone with one. The person telling me this then taught me 4 of the strike targets and made me practice it with him, using a highligher. We went home with yellow all over our necks, sides of the head and AF uniforms that day. Fortunately the marks washed out after a couple of washings. We also did a lot of pushups in that office -- the guys I was working with were training up to apply for Combat Control Technician school, basically behind-the-lines air traffic controllers guiding planes in for strikes and insertions.
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Old 17th January 2014, 01:23 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
The problem with the FBI stats you quote is they don't tell the whole story. If 2 gangbanging drug dealers who know each other get into an argument and one shoots the other the FBI reports it as an acquaintance murder, and then people like you say "you're more likely to use your gun against your family". No, I'm not.
And yet other analysis shows that drugs/gangs account for 10-30% of homicides so something isn't quite right with your narrative.

Anyway, here are some statistics again

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
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Old 17th January 2014, 03:05 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by AlBell View Post
How's your constitutional amendment reversing the 2nd coming along?
Assuming that Marplot's scenario happened, I think it would come along just fine.
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Old 17th January 2014, 03:07 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
You must be unfamiliar with some posters here then. DavidJames, for example, would like a complete ban. So would marplots.

Have there been any gun control laws in the USA you think have gone too far?
See my amendment following that post.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
SYG laws take that gray ambiguity away from prosecutors who abused it over and over again.
And now SYG seems to be abused by the defense. Seems like there can't be any middle ground on this issue in the US.
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Old 17th January 2014, 03:11 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by jakesteele View Post
As strange as it sounds, the guy who threw the popcorn is probably at fault because he assaulted by the guy with the gun.
Well at least he didn't attack him with fresh fruit.
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Old 17th January 2014, 03:43 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well at least he didn't attack him with fresh fruit.
And if the appropriate response to having popcorn thrown at you is the use of deadly force then something is broken in the system.
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Old 17th January 2014, 05:12 AM   #539
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Indeed. There's a point where a reasonable person has to know that they are not vitally threatened.
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Old 17th January 2014, 05:47 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well at least he didn't attack him with fresh fruit.
He could have had a ceramic squirrel on him. You can never tell.
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:25 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
And if the appropriate response to having popcorn thrown at you is the use of deadly force then something is broken in the system.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Indeed. There's a point where a reasonable person has to know that they are not vitally threatened.
I can see how throwing a bag of popcorn at someone could be used as a diversionary tactic prior to a more physical assault. I'm not saying that this is what Oulson was trying to do or that this is what Reeves thought he was trying to do. I'm just saying that throwing something seemingly harmless at someone isn't always so innocent. I once had someone toss a book at me then try to punch me when I caught it near my waist.
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:28 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Really? No robberies, drug deals, mentally disturbed in other countries? No wonder them European fur'eners don't like us.
I never said that, my point was clear.

We know we can make progress on the low hanging fruit. We know we will not change the constitution anytime soon.

Focus on what we can change to bring us closer to our goal.

Simple really, hard to understand where your confusion exists.

Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post

Furthermore, under "Stand Your Ground", an aggressor is just as justified in shooting a victim who fights back.
Thats not true, they are only justified given all the same standards of reasonableness AND they have to make an attempt to flee before they can issue deadly force legally.

Originally Posted by casebro View Post

But Joe, did SYG raise or lower assault rates?
Begging the question and false dichotomy all in one.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Everything you said is true. Which is why I never **** with anyone.

My position is that if a sober person finds himself in a crowded movie theater arguing over theater etiquette and reaches the conclusion "That guy is **** with me so I had better use deadly force to make sure he stops **** with me." then that guy should not be allowed to be in public unsupervised.
I agree.

Impulse control is the least of that person problems.
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:28 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Why is it that "things gangbangers do" is always portrayed as something that inaccurately skews gun statistics - as if they're not people, and the things "they" do to each other should be somehow counted differently from the things "normal people" have done to each other? If a "gangbanger" kills a friend or a relative, then "acquaintance murder" is 100% accurate and exactly where the statistic belongs.
Criminals misusing material objects to further their criminal activities is not a reason to take those same objects away from people who are not misusing them.

How would you feel about cars being banned to fight drunk driving?
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:30 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It's inconsistent with The Vigilante Credo. You need to immerse yourself in John Wayne and Clint Eastwood movies for a few decades. Maybe Bruce Willis.
Hey, here's an idea, how about responding to the answer I gave to that question nearly three hours before your post rather than putting words in my mouth?

Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Your Philosophy is not at all consistent with reality. "Duty to retreat" places the burden of defending oneself on the person who is defending his physical well being, not his ego. It is not self defense if you willfully enter into a fight. There are no ifs, ands or buts about it. Saying "he started it" is for the playground. You, like the shooter in this example, seem to be conflating "self image defense" with "self defense".

Furthermore, under "Stand Your Ground", an aggressor is just as justified in shooting a victim who fights back.
Wildcat and fuelair already addressed this, but I'll reiterate - what you are describing isn't self-defense.

Duty to retreat is just another way of saying "go ahead and give the criminal what he wants or else risk being railroaded by a zealous prosecutor for defending yourself."
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:31 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by AbleSugar View Post
Yup. I do agree that it does happen. Part of it probably depends on where a person lives.
For instance, where I live it is very rare an officer even has to pull his weapon much less shoot somebody. And when there is a shooting it is a really big deal.
Yeah, I think it was the phrasing that got me going.
I guess in other areas of the country its a daily occurrence but I still don't think cops "routinely" get away with murder.
How come you still haven't addressed the LA cops who shot up the van and the 2 women delivering newspapers and yet faced no charges whatsoever?

Do you need the link again?
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:35 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
not a complete ban, but severe restrictions.
Ah, so as long as one person in the country is allowed one muzzle loading firearm you can say you're not advocating a complete ban, is that it?

Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
tell that to the wife and child. Seriously, man up and tell them.

And don't play semantic games with me, if he wasn't carrying the child would have a father today.
The husband wasn't killed because the ex-cop was carrying a firearm, they were killed because he shot him with the firearm.

And appeals to emotion, the bedrock of critical thinking! What a fantastic example of why this forum exists!
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:36 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
Other than the dead guy in the OP. Did you even read the OP?



This. ^^^^
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:37 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Why is it that "things gangbangers do" is always portrayed as something that inaccurately skews gun statistics - as if they're not people, and the things "they" do to each other should be somehow counted differently from the things "normal people" have done to each other? If a "gangbanger" kills a friend or a relative, then "acquaintance murder" is 100% accurate and exactly where the statistic belongs.
Gangbangers are people? When did this happen?
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:38 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
And yet other analysis shows that drugs/gangs account for 10-30% of homicides so something isn't quite right with your narrative.

Anyway, here are some statistics again

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
I already told how the statistics are skewed, you still haven't addressed that and in fact snipped that part out of your quote. Why?
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:41 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
See my amendment following that post.
I have no idea what you're referring to.

Has there ever been a gun control measure in the USA you feel has gone too far?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And now SYG seems to be abused by the defense. Seems like there can't be any middle ground on this issue in the US.
How is SYG abused? Do you even know what SYG is?
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:42 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Hey, here's an idea, how about responding to the answer I gave to that question nearly three hours before your post

Maybe because I wasn't responding to you. The fact that I quoted someone else's post instead of yours should have been a hint.

Quote:

rather than putting words in my mouth?

<snip>

I have no idea what you are going on about. My response to the post I quoted had absolutely nothing to do with you. At least not personally or in regard to whatever post you made.

You really need to get over yourself.
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:52 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Maybe because I wasn't responding to you. The fact that I quoted someone else's post instead of yours should have been a hint.




I have no idea what you are going on about. My response to the post I quoted had absolutely nothing to do with you. At least not personally or in regard to whatever post you made.

You really need to get over yourself.
You quoted a post of mine and two responses to a previous post of mine - that has nothing to do with me...how?

I apologize for being short, at any rate.
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:56 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
I'm just saying that throwing something seemingly harmless at someone isn't always so innocent.
True. Still, shooting someone in response to popcorn seems overreaction. And if he did get the gun before coming back, that seems like premeditation, as well.
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Old 17th January 2014, 06:59 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Ah, so as long as one person in the country is allowed one muzzle loading firearm you can say you're not advocating a complete ban, is that it?
I do believe that's a strawman.

Quote:
I have no idea what you're referring to.
Then you must have skipped over one of my posts. Most "total ban" posts are strawmen from pro-gun posters. Few people seriously propose a total ban. Is that clearer ?

Quote:
Has there ever been a gun control measure in the USA you feel has gone too far?
I'd say that they are currently inadequate, but I don't know about too far or far enough. Sorry if I can't give you a better answer.

Quote:
How is SYG abused?
Seriously ?
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Old 17th January 2014, 07:01 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
You quoted a post of mine and two responses to a previous post of mine - that has nothing to do with me...how?

I apologize for being short, at any rate.

I quoted Upchurch. In response to Upchurch. Just because he quoted you doesn't mean I was responding to or in place of you (or joesixpack for that matter).

Those quotes were included as a part of his post (the way in which they were presented) to provide context to his post. This practice is not uncommon, and is actually advisable in threads which move rapidly.
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Old 17th January 2014, 07:06 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I'm going to answer it anyway.

Like I have said before, two changes to American gun laws would prevent incidents like this from happening.

1. Repeal the Second Amendment. Change gun ownership from a right to a privilege. Sure, amending the constitution isn't a quick or an easy process. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

2. Remove "self defence" as a valid reason for gun ownership. This way, licensed hunters like RennaisanceBiker, sport shooters, park rangers, etc. would still be permitted to own guns, but not your average joe in the street who doesn't need one.
Since you include park rangers, I'm assuming that would also include police, so the man in the theater could still have been carrying his gun up until he retired, and perhaps after that. If he was a sport shooter--a cop might be interested in target shooting with a pistol as a hobby even after retirement--he could also have still owned a gun.
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Old 17th January 2014, 07:22 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by RenaissanceBiker View Post
I can see how throwing a bag of popcorn at someone could be used as a diversionary tactic prior to a more physical assault. I'm not saying that this is what Oulson was trying to do or that this is what Reeves thought he was trying to do. I'm just saying that throwing something seemingly harmless at someone isn't always so innocent. I once had someone toss a book at me then try to punch me when I caught it near my waist.
Possible, but I'm pretty sure it's negligibly likely in any given instance.
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Old 17th January 2014, 07:31 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Gangbangers are people? When did this happen?
Typically when they are born.
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Old 17th January 2014, 07:33 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well yes, but that's pointless. You then are still left with the tragedy caused by illegal gun owners plus all those that are created when people resist having their guns taken plus that caused by people who have actual use of firearms not having them. You could also nuke the earth and that would solve the gun problem, but that's not going to happen either and creates a bunch of other problems. That's not really an 'out' at all.
But such a measure would eliminate a significant class of shootings.

Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
If you include the following:

Gun control only hurts responsible gun owners.
Evidence? If the shooter in this incident wasn't allowed to have a firearm legally would he have had one illegally? And risked the consequences?

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
One good thing to come out of this might be that annoying people are afraid to take their cellphones into theaters.
Or more people are armed and more arguments spiral into violence.

Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Haven't you noticed that on the JREF forum is it fashionable to gloat over the misfortune of murder victims, especially if guns were involved?

Ranb
No, no I haven't. Have you evidence supporting this claim?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
An armed society is a polite society he failed politeness and earned the consequences.
Oft claimed, where's the proof of this?
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Old 17th January 2014, 07:35 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
You have prosecutors and a judge/jury who weren't there and have nothing on the line and have days, weeks, or months to second guess the person who was there and whose life was on the line and who had to make a decision in fractions of a second on the question of whether or not they could retreat in complete safety.
That doesn't really answer the question. The leisure to second guess a momentary decision is practically the definition of any trial and not really a good excuse to not hold people accountable for their actions.
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