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Tags Florida incidents , shooting incidents , texting incidents

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Old 31st July 2015, 02:39 PM   #2081
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That, and reinforcement of our society's commitment to due process. Which is a pretty significant benefit, if you ask me.
I concur completely.

I was simply commenting on the defense's motivation.
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Old 31st July 2015, 02:47 PM   #2082
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I concur completely.

I was simply commenting on the defense's motivation.
Fair enough.

I like to think that most defense lawyers do it partly because they believe due process is so important that they will gladly defend guilty scumbags tooth and nail to uphold the institution.
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Old 31st July 2015, 02:48 PM   #2083
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
He had to surrender all his guns as part of bonding out.
Isn't that a violation of the second amendment?
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Old 31st July 2015, 03:02 PM   #2084
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
When you hold yourself as an exemplar of a great nation expect some blowback. God bless Murrica.
It is not that America hold themselves as an example of great nation. Everybody does to some extent.

I think most of the negative reaction is not because American hold themselves as a great nation, it is because some American hold the attitude as "number 1 everybody else is crap" and "without us the world would go to the toilet" or "our way or no way" and that even when visiting other countries, while at the same time showing a lot of prejudice themselves over other country without understanding of that country (like half the respondent of that thread about French farmer recently). Note that I am not saying all American just some. That attitude will tend rub people the wrong way and they will push back.
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Old 31st July 2015, 03:26 PM   #2085
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Fair enough.

I like to think that most defense lawyers do it partly because they believe due process is so important that they will gladly defend guilty scumbags tooth and nail to uphold the institution.
Yeah, but in the end you do what is best for your client, within the bounds of what will not ruin your career. The delay is understandable on other grounds, such as those you bring up, but it is most understandable in the context of a man out on bail who is very likely to convicted. In that case you take every reasonable excuse for delay and maybe a few that are pushing the boundary of reasonable. This one was reasonable based on the DA's actions.
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Old 31st July 2015, 06:58 PM   #2086
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yeah, but in the end you do what is best for your client, within the bounds of what will not ruin your career. The delay is understandable on other grounds, such as those you bring up, but it is most understandable in the context of a man out on bail who is very likely to convicted. In that case you take every reasonable excuse for delay and maybe a few that are pushing the boundary of reasonable. This one was reasonable based on the DA's actions.
And moreover one of an age such that a delay like that might mean death from old age before prison.
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Old 31st July 2015, 07:49 PM   #2087
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That, and reinforcement of our society's commitment to due process. Which is a pretty significant benefit, if you ask me.

I applaud your dedication.

I only wish more people shared it, especially where death penalty appeals are concerned.

I still think the dude should be behind bars while he's waiting on his due process though.

I don't think very many people who weren't white retired LEOs could get bail after shooting an innocent stranger from behind in the dark.

At least not a bail anyone who isn't a Warren Buffett or Bill Gates could afford.
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Old 31st July 2015, 08:05 PM   #2088
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Originally Posted by king catfish View Post
Agreed. I have resigned myself to the fact that firearms in the United States will soon become much more restricted, mostly because of the recent rash of loonies shooting up theaters, rabid cops killing people who fail to cower and kowtow to their great puissance and authority, and the hysterical media coverage thereof.

I was a soldier way back in the day, and know how to handle guns safely. I carry concealed most days. I have never had an accident, I keep them locked up safe in my home, taught my children safe gun handling, all that jazz. I have never felt the urge to draw my weapon in self-defense, although I have been in a situation or two that (borderline) arguably justified it.

I really really really don't want to shoot anyone. I enjoy the option to do so if I must. Yes, that I must will be a judgement call on my part, but I am determined to err on the side of caution and I will do my best if faced with the choice.

When handguns are banned I will give them up. I will be deeply unhappy about it, but I will. I have too much to lose otherwise.

Despite the widespread belief that American gun owners are all rabid criminals waiting to commit murder, the truth is that I am a typical American gun owner. Further, I personally know several other people that fit this description (some without the military service). Sorry if that ***** up the beloved little worldview of haplophobes.

Truly, I think the solution is to figure out why the fraction of people that feel the need to murder people seems to be increasing. Maybe it's just the media coverage. I don't know. (I am not including cops in this one... that profession has always attracted the bullies and psychopaths that could not cut it in the military or aren't courageous enough to face a real enemy rather than just push civilians around. Not enough chance for a "Gotcha!" moment in day-to-day military service.)

[/semicoherent rant]
You know each one of your cop stereotypes could also be applied to grunts and officers in the military. Some cops are ********* who think they are special. Same with soldiers.
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Old 31st July 2015, 08:52 PM   #2089
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I applaud your dedication.

I only wish more people shared it, especially where death penalty appeals are concerned.

I still think the dude should be behind bars while he's waiting on his due process though.

I don't think very many people who weren't white retired LEOs could get bail after shooting an innocent stranger from behind in the dark.
Heavily-edited post:

After looking at a number of stories, I can confirm that the shooter was sitting down when the popcorn was thrown and when he drew and fired his gun. I cannot determine if the victim stood up and turned to face Reeves or if the victim was still sitting when he was shot. Was the victim shot from behind?

..........
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Old 1st August 2015, 11:10 AM   #2090
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Isn't that a violation of the second amendment?
No...Nor is keeping them away from those not competent to handle/use them.
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Old 1st August 2015, 11:19 AM   #2091
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Heavily-edited post:

After looking at a number of stories, I can confirm that the shooter was sitting down when the popcorn was thrown and when he drew and fired his gun. I cannot determine if the victim stood up and turned to face Reeves or if the victim was still sitting when he was shot. Was the victim shot from behind?

..........
Don't remember - not that it matters as he was not armed and was never a threat. At worst, throwing heavily buttered popcorn at him MIGHT have been called for due to the in-theater phoning.
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Old 1st August 2015, 12:06 PM   #2092
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
You know each one of your cop stereotypes could also be applied to grunts and officers in the military. Some cops are ********* who think they are special. Same with soldiers.
Soldiers don't police civilians. You are not going to get pulled over by the U.S. Army and get shot for reaching for your license.
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Last edited by king catfish; 1st August 2015 at 12:16 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 1st August 2015, 08:05 PM   #2093
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Originally Posted by king catfish View Post
Soldiers don't police civilians. You are not going to get pulled over by the U.S. Army and get shot for reaching for your license.
No they dont, however the military do project power overseas and make life or death decisions and require compliance from civillians in many situations. Just because they dont often deal in this manner with their own civillians doesnt mean it doesn't happen. Even in peaceful countries, Look at some of the scandles US soldiers have gotten into in Japan or South Korea.
Look at the history of bastardisation of soldiers and recruits that has a history of occurring in the military. Any job that conveys a posution of power will attract a number of selfish arses. Its been a failure of these organisations that they dont effectively identify it and stamp it out.
Part of the problem is "the bro code" has been stretched and been perverted to the point that it actually destroys any idea of accountability, protects the minority of bad elements and makes it difficult to speak up against the individuals who cause the problems in the first place. The selfish idiots have no problem getting their colleagues into **** but expect to be protected by those same colleagues when it all hits the fan

Last edited by Hungry81; 1st August 2015 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 29th October 2015, 10:59 AM   #2094
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http://news.yahoo.com/florida-man-sh...124807512.html

Quote:
“I think we have a pretty solid stand your ground case,” Richard Escobar, Reeves’ attorney, told the Tampa Bay Times. Escobar plans to utilize a video taken at the scene to prove Reeves acted lawfully under Florida’s self-defense law and ultimately have the criminal charges dismissed. A five-day hearing is scheduled to begin on Jan. 25.
Stand his ground against popcorn? I wonder if Nicole Oulson will be allowed too speak at the hearing? The killer has been out on bail at home with a monitor since July 2014.

Ranb

Last edited by Ranb; 29th October 2015 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 29th October 2015, 11:07 AM   #2095
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/florida-man-sh...124807512.html


Stand his ground against popcorn? I wonder if Nicole Oulson will be allowed too speak at the hearing? The killer has been out on bail at home with a monitor since July 2014.

Ranb
In the "plus ça change" category, your remark reminds me of a political cartoon I saw from the 1950's (My parents were great Herblock fans):

Classic Herblock

edit to add: ain't the Interwebs wonderful? I have not seen that cartoon for probably 50 years, and found it here in twenty seconds.
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Last edited by bruto; 29th October 2015 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 29th October 2015, 11:43 AM   #2096
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/florida-man-sh...124807512.html


Stand his ground against popcorn? I wonder if Nicole Oulson will be allowed too speak at the hearing? The killer has been out on bail at home with a monitor since July 2014.

Ranb
Interesting. Is this just something lawyers say, or has he hinted at how he came to that conclusion?
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Old 29th October 2015, 12:00 PM   #2097
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Has the NRA weighed in on this case of a man shooting an unarmed man in a theater?
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Old 29th October 2015, 12:02 PM   #2098
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Interesting. Is this just something lawyers say, or has he hinted at how he came to that conclusion?
Standing ground against popcorn is me mocking the shooter.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Has the NRA weighed in on this case of a man shooting an unarmed man in a theater?
I seen plenty of "let's blame the NRA for the shooting" but nothing about an NRA position on it.

Ranb

Last edited by Ranb; 29th October 2015 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 29th October 2015, 02:04 PM   #2099
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/florida-man-sh...124807512.html


Stand his ground against popcorn? I wonder if Nicole Oulson will be allowed too speak at the hearing? The killer has been out on bail at home with a monitor since July 2014.

Ranb
I thought he went out to his car, got his gun, brought it back into the theater and then murdered the guy, who was quietly sitting in his seat except for when he was being harassed by the nutcase.

How is that "stand your ground"?
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Old 29th October 2015, 02:15 PM   #2100
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I have no idea. I would love to see what gymnastics the killer's lawyer goes through at the hearing to justify that defense. Maybe the hearing will be televised?

Ranb
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Old 29th October 2015, 02:38 PM   #2101
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I thought he went out to his car, got his gun, brought it back into the theater and then murdered the guy, who was quietly sitting in his seat except for when he was being harassed by the nutcase.

How is that "stand your ground"?
Sounds like the attorney is just gaming the system by priming the potential jury pool.
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Old 29th October 2015, 02:54 PM   #2102
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Stand his ground against popcorn?
Well, you know it isn't the gun that kills but the person, so, like they said in the movie Hero, even a blade of grass can be a deadly weapon. Can't take chances, now.
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Old 29th October 2015, 02:57 PM   #2103
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If only the guy who got shot had been black.

Then we'd have every conservative wingnut in the blogosphere digging up dirt to tell us what a violent thug he was, and we'd all be convinced he attacked the shooter.
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Old 29th October 2015, 02:59 PM   #2104
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I have no idea. I would love to see what gymnastics the killer's lawyer goes through at the hearing to justify that defense. Maybe the hearing will be televised?

Ranb
I'd consider that an attack, and shoot the TV.
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Old 29th October 2015, 03:17 PM   #2105
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Interesting. Is this just something lawyers say, or has he hinted at how he came to that conclusion?
It's right there in the passage Ranb quoted: The lawyer claims to have video evidence that supports his conclusion.

Perhaps the video shows that something more than popcorn was threatened.
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Old 29th October 2015, 04:51 PM   #2106
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's right there in the passage Ranb quoted: The lawyer claims to have video evidence that supports his conclusion.

Perhaps the video shows that something more than popcorn was threatened.

I still think that leaving the building to get a firearm and then returning and promptly shooting the victim ought to complicate the hell out of a "stand your ground" defense.
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Old 29th October 2015, 06:44 PM   #2107
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/florida-man-sh...124807512.html


Stand his ground against popcorn? I wonder if Nicole Oulson will be allowed too speak at the hearing? The killer has been out on bail at home with a monitor since July 2014.

Ranb
What did you expect the defense lawyer to say?
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Old 29th October 2015, 06:54 PM   #2108
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What did you expect the defense lawyer to say?
Before a trial? How about nothing?
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Old 29th October 2015, 07:47 PM   #2109
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I thought he went out to his car, got his gun, brought it back into the theater and then murdered the guy, who was quietly sitting in his seat except for when he was being harassed by the nutcase.

How is that "stand your ground"?
You think that defense is crazy and I think that defense is crazy, but the way the law is written, it is possible that leaving and returning does not discount the stand-your-ground defense.
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Old 29th October 2015, 08:30 PM   #2110
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What did you expect the defense lawyer to say?
I would have expected the"old man with dementia" defense would work better than "I had to defend myself against popcorn" defense.

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Old 29th October 2015, 08:49 PM   #2111
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
You think that defense is crazy and I think that defense is crazy, but the way the law is written, it is possible that leaving and returning does not discount the stand-your-ground defense.
Possible isn't real helpful in this situation, though because it includes things that are hugely unlikely or unrealistic.

Florida Standard Jury Instruction 3.6(f) covers the justifiable use of deadly force. It includes:
If you find that the defendant who because of threats or prior difficulties with [the victim] had reasonable grounds to believe that [he] was in danger of death or great bodily harm at the hands of [the victim], then the defendant had the right to arm [himself]. However, the defendant cannot justify the use of deadly force, if after arming [himself] [he] renewed [his] difficulty with [the victim] when [he] could have avoided the difficulty, although as previously explained if the defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where [he] had a right to be, [he] had no duty to retreat.

If the fact set that is established at trial is that the defendant had an argument with the victim over a theater disruption, left to retrieve a firearm, resumed the dispute and had popcorn thrown at him, he will be convicted in spite of a claim of justification by virtue of the use of force not being objectively reasonable first but would also fail by virtue of having armed himself and returning to prior dispute that was avoidable.
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Old 29th October 2015, 09:08 PM   #2112
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
In the "plus ça change" category, your remark reminds me of a political cartoon I saw from the 1950's (My parents were great Herblock fans):

Classic Herblock

edit to add: ain't the Interwebs wonderful? I have not seen that cartoon for probably 50 years, and found it here in twenty seconds.
Well found and posted!!!!!
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Old 29th October 2015, 09:30 PM   #2113
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
Possible isn't real helpful in this situation, though because it includes things that are hugely unlikely or unrealistic.

Florida Standard Jury Instruction 3.6(f) covers the justifiable use of deadly force. It includes:
If you find that the defendant who because of threats or prior difficulties with [the victim] had reasonable grounds to believe that [he] was in danger of death or great bodily harm at the hands of [the victim], then the defendant had the right to arm [himself]. However, the defendant cannot justify the use of deadly force, if after arming [himself] [he] renewed [his] difficulty with [the victim] when [he] could have avoided the difficulty, although as previously explained if the defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where [he] had a right to be, [he] had no duty to retreat.

If the fact set that is established at trial is that the defendant had an argument with the victim over a theater disruption, left to retrieve a firearm, resumed the dispute and had popcorn thrown at him, he will be convicted in spite of a claim of justification by virtue of the use of force not being objectively reasonable first but would also fail by virtue of having armed himself and returning to prior dispute that was avoidable.
Obviously, I am not a lawyer.
I am interested in what the shooter's lawyer comes up with.

I wonder if it will be difficult to establish that he left to retrieve the firearm. Was that part of his original story?
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Old 29th October 2015, 09:36 PM   #2114
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I would have expected the"old man with dementia" defense would work better than "I had to defend myself against popcorn" defense.

Ranb
It seems to me the defense is just playing the cards dealt.

The 10-20-Life statute imposes a mandatory minimum of 25 years for 2nd degree murder with a firearm. That is time served -- no parole, no good time. That means at minimum Reeves is 96 before his earliest opportunity for release. That doesn't include whatever charges stem from wounding the victim's wife.

OK, so you go in and argue manslaughter over murder. The problem with that is 10-20-Life applies to that as well. 25 years mandatory minimum; 96 years old at earliest possible release. Again, that's the bare minimum.

Really, Clive's only options here are a plea deal that removes the firearm enhancement, an effective life sentence at trial or a fact set that counters pretty much everything that's been reported.

Maybe Clive is intransigent about his innocence. Maybe the evidence is so strong that the prosecutor wants a signature trial - no deal for you. Or maybe Clive wants the prosecutor to blink and accept a deal rather than risk making a de la Rionda of him or her self.

My guess is that if the evidence would have deviated enough from the reporting to make a difference, Clive's attorney's would be screaming it from Sugarloaf Mountain. So really the question is if the evidence is marginal enough to exclude the firearm enhancement or a slam dunk with no deal available.
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Old 29th October 2015, 09:52 PM   #2115
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I wonder if it will be difficult to establish that he left to retrieve the firearm. Was that part of his original story?

Just for clarity's sake, I'm not asserting any fact, I'm just addressing arguments made here (though I don't know if you make that argument explicitly). There seems to be two versions floating around. One is that Clive left to complain to management, one is that he left to retrieve a firearm. It seems to me that a retired sheriff would be wearing the firearm, but that's just a guess. I don't think that question will be a determining feature in this case.
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Old 30th October 2015, 08:40 AM   #2116
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What did you expect the defense lawyer to say?
"It is by will alone that I set my mind in motion"? I don't know.
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Old 30th October 2015, 10:56 AM   #2117
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
It seems to me the defense is just playing the cards dealt.

The 10-20-Life statute imposes a mandatory minimum of 25 years for 2nd degree murder with a firearm. That is time served -- no parole, no good time. That means at minimum Reeves is 96 before his earliest opportunity for release. That doesn't include whatever charges stem from wounding the victim's wife.

OK, so you go in and argue manslaughter over murder. The problem with that is 10-20-Life applies to that as well. 25 years mandatory minimum; 96 years old at earliest possible release. Again, that's the bare minimum.

Really, Clive's only options here are a plea deal that removes the firearm enhancement, an effective life sentence at trial or a fact set that counters pretty much everything that's been reported.

Maybe Clive is intransigent about his innocence. Maybe the evidence is so strong that the prosecutor wants a signature trial - no deal for you. Or maybe Clive wants the prosecutor to blink and accept a deal rather than risk making a de la Rionda of him or her self.

My guess is that if the evidence would have deviated enough from the reporting to make a difference, Clive's attorney's would be screaming it from Sugarloaf Mountain. So really the question is if the evidence is marginal enough to exclude the firearm enhancement or a slam dunk with no deal available.
It's this:
"My guess is that if the evidence would have deviated enough from the reporting..."

Us arm chair detectives never get the full story, just the exaggerations of the media. This is the first I've heard of a video. Simplest possible additional evidence is that Clive went to his car, armed himself to be ready for defense, and Popcorn Man started the whole thing again. Clive defended himself, not against the popcorn, but against a new threat.

He would have been standing his ground, his ground here being he did pay to see the movie. That was HIS chosen seat, that was HIS chosen entertainment, why should he have to leave?

All theory.

eta: A pie in the face is considered assault. A bucket of popcorn is fersure.
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Old 30th October 2015, 11:21 AM   #2118
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
eta: A pie in the face is considered assault. A bucket of popcorn is fersure.
Yes, it is an assault. But the law says one has to be facing what a reasonable person would consider a threat of death or grave bodily harm before one starts shooting. That, I surmise, is a mountain that is too steep for his defense lawyer to scale. But we shall see what happens.
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Old 30th October 2015, 11:26 AM   #2119
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I've never seen it claimed that he left to retrieve his gun.

He left to whine to the manager, never went to his car.
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Old 30th October 2015, 11:29 AM   #2120
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
It's this:
"My guess is that if the evidence would have deviated enough from the reporting..."

Us arm chair detectives never get the full story, just the exaggerations of the media. This is the first I've heard of a video. Simplest possible additional evidence is that Clive went to his car, armed himself to be ready for defense, and Popcorn Man started the whole thing again. Clive defended himself, not against the popcorn, but against a new threat.

He would have been standing his ground, his ground here being he did pay to see the movie. That was HIS chosen seat, that was HIS chosen entertainment, why should he have to leave?

All theory.

eta: A pie in the face is considered assault. A bucket of popcorn is fersure.
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Here is the video in question. It is not a bucket of popcorn, but a small bag or cup.

He left, then came back to the exact same seat. That's not standing your ground.
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