ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

Reply
Old 3rd July 2019, 06:46 PM   #441
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,780
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Every T is G, as far as I can tell. But, there are probably exceptions.
There's a possible debate about whether some Ts are just Gs in denial?
Eg:
"I'm female but I like females. I'm not gay maybe i'm just in the wrong body?"
or
"I'm male but I like males. I'm not gay maybe i'm just in the wrong body?".

There's a possible rabbit hole via the internet if you feel like that, it's reassurance all the way down.

Last edited by p0lka; 3rd July 2019 at 06:59 PM.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2019, 08:56 PM   #442
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 24,673
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT?
That's why it's now LGBTQIA+

I wish I were joking.

Maybe we could just throw an "H" on the end of it and include heterosexuals.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2019, 09:08 PM   #443
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,615
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Maybe we could just throw an "H" on the end of it and include heterosexuals.
Careful. Your heading down the "all lives matter" rabbit hole.
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2019, 10:10 PM   #444
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,881
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Careful. Your heading down the "all lives matter" rabbit hole.
Some just matter more than others
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2019, 10:40 PM   #445
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,860
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Summaries are nice.

Headline: How employers are preparing for a gender non-binary world

Quote:
Last week, Quartz reported that financial services giant TIAA had rolled out guidelines in late May suggesting client-facing employees share their pronouns in introductions. Netflix now has recruiters do the same, as well as ask candidates about theirs in initial phone calls, one of several practices to accommodate non-binary employees or applicants. A new program from MasterCard will allow cardholders to swap out birth names that conflict with gender identity with the name they actually use.
I see some really great opportunities for trolling here. I have never in my life been asked what my preferred pronouns are. I'm (now) a middle-aged balding man with a beard and an unmistakably male voice, so I wouldn't normally expect to be asked that.

Here's some options:

https://uwm.edu/lgbtrc/support/gender-pronouns/

ETA: besides pronouns, what is the proper way to address a non-binary person? Sir and Ma'am are out, I assume, so what is it?
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

Last edited by Puppycow; 3rd July 2019 at 10:44 PM.
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2019, 11:27 PM   #446
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 18,596
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
There's a possible debate about whether some Ts are just Gs in denial?
There's a possible debate about whether some HMs (=hetero males) who consume lesbian-theme pornography are in fact sexually aroused about being female and want to be a girl really and because they can't be they end up hating women so one gets all the trappings of misogyny writ large from these folks. Some think all of them are. Bit of a rabbit hole

#parody

Last edited by Francesca R; 3rd July 2019 at 11:29 PM.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 08:00 AM   #447
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,613
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT?

The LGB part are fighting against conformity, in the sense of 'Don't tell me who I should be attracted to, I'm gonna be who i want and not conform.'

The T bit is all about conforming,
'ooh I feel like a girl so I have to look like a girl',
or, 'I feel like a boy so i have to look like a boy',

or more generally, 'I want to conform to a gender role, so I need to fit in with that gender role',

Why is the T treated the same as the LGB? They're coming from completely different positions?
LGB ... don't care I'll do what I want..
T... I need to conform..I need to conform...form...m.

The answer, quite seriously, seems to be that gay-rights activist groups such as Stonewall were facing huge downsizing and loss of funding and status because they had achieved all their legislative goals. Rather than be out of a job, management decided to adopt the trans-rights cause.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 10:37 AM   #448
IsThisTheLife
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 464
I realise that 'LGBT' has become the pert acronym favoured by the media (hence BBC News has a staff "LGBT correspondent"), but not long ago it was the more unwieldy 'LGBTQ' (+) - I still don't understand why the apparent distinction between G(ay) and Q(ueer) was made.
__________________
"There is no sin except stupidity."
IsThisTheLife is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 10:51 AM   #449
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,467
Other than marriage and "family" related financial benefits what rights were they being denied any other citizens would have?

Acceptance and respect CANNOT be legislated into the public mind for anyone. Race, ability/disability or preferences alike.
8enotto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 11:16 AM   #450
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,713
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT?

The LGB part are fighting against conformity, in the sense of 'Don't tell me who I should be attracted to, I'm gonna be who i want and not conform.'

The T bit is all about conforming,
'ooh I feel like a girl so I have to look like a girl',
or, 'I feel like a boy so i have to look like a boy',

or more generally, 'I want to conform to a gender role, so I need to fit in with that gender role',

Why is the T treated the same as the LGB? They're coming from completely different positions?
LGB ... don't care I'll do what I want..
T... I need to conform..I need to conform...form...m.
Cause there’s really WAY more than one school of thought on all this stuff, and the one you’re describing is only one of them. There’s a lot of trans folks who are NOT about conforming to current society gender roles. People born female-bodied who just want to go on hormone therapy, quit having female breasts, and get called Frank, but keep their personality and presentation pretty much how it was the whole time.

Like the ‘isn’t queer just gay’ question, the school of thought with people who like queer as an umbrella identifier is that they want a community that includes absolutely everyone who is not just plain “straight, and happy with the gender they came with” because there’s so much shared experience and empathy across everyone who just didn’t/doesn’t feel included in any of the mainstream, gendered, heterosexual common experiences that most people can relate to.

It’s fine if you were different and you didn’t care, but a lot of people feel bad about that stuff and want to belong somewhere and a lot of people want to belong to just the big club of ‘everybody else,’ and yes it gets awkward when you’re trying to name each segment of everybody else. And it gets awkward again when a lot of people wants to gatekeep exactly what kind of ‘everybody else’ counts and whether this particular person over here counts or not.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 11:25 AM   #451
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 54,463
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Other than marriage and "family" related financial benefits what rights were they being denied any other citizens would have?

Acceptance and respect CANNOT be legislated into the public mind for anyone. Race, ability/disability or preferences alike.
Depending on what state one lives in, one can be fired, evicted, or denied adoption for not being straight. So if you don't mind the risk of being unemployed, homeless, and losing your kids then sure, everything's great!
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 11:30 AM   #452
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 24,673
Toilet problem solved: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...festival-crowd
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 11:53 AM   #453
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 90,447
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The answer, quite seriously, seems to be that gay-rights activist groups such as Stonewall were facing huge downsizing and loss of funding and status because they had achieved all their legislative goals. Rather than be out of a job, management decided to adopt the trans-rights cause.
Rubbish. It was because it was only in the LGB "community" that many people who would now be called trans were accepted and felt free from fear and threats so could be who they wanted to. So "they" joined up with the other groupings in terms of activism.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 11:55 AM   #454
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 90,447
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Cause there’s really WAY more than one school of thought on all this stuff, and the one you’re describing is only one of them. There’s a lot of trans folks who are NOT about conforming to current society gender roles. People born female-bodied who just want to go on hormone therapy, quit having female breasts, and get called Frank, but keep their personality and presentation pretty much how it was the whole time.



Like the ‘isn’t queer just gay’ question, the school of thought with people who like queer as an umbrella identifier is that they want a community that includes absolutely everyone who is not just plain “straight, and happy with the gender they came with” because there’s so much shared experience and empathy across everyone who just didn’t/doesn’t feel included in any of the mainstream, gendered, heterosexual common experiences that most people can relate to.



It’s fine if you were different and you didn’t care, but a lot of people feel bad about that stuff and want to belong somewhere and a lot of people want to belong to just the big club of ‘everybody else,’ and yes it gets awkward when you’re trying to name each segment of everybody else. And it gets awkward again when a lot of people wants to gatekeep exactly what kind of ‘everybody else’ counts and whether this particular person over here counts or not.
Well I object the re-re-purposing of queer!
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 03:16 PM   #455
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,780
Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
There's a possible debate about whether some HMs (=hetero males) who consume lesbian-theme pornography are in fact sexually aroused about being female and want to be a girl really and because they can't be they end up hating women so one gets all the trappings of misogyny writ large from these folks. Some think all of them are. Bit of a rabbit hole

#parody
Yeah, i suggested some As might be bs,

Then you came along suggesting that some Cs might be Ds which leads to some CS not wanting to be Ds and Fs are As and Bs are Es and then you mentioned misogyny.

Right, **** the alphabet.... where are you getting the misogyny from?
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 03:19 PM   #456
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 20,683
Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I realise that 'LGBT' has become the pert acronym favoured by the media (hence BBC News has a staff "LGBT correspondent"), but not long ago it was the more unwieldy 'LGBTQ' (+) - I still don't understand why the apparent distinction between G(ay) and Q(ueer) was made.
The first time I saw the "Q" I was told it stood for "questioning", as in people who were kind of gender neutral or really weren't sure about their gender or sexuality. I can't remember how long ago that was, but it was a while back. I think it was even LGBQ when I first saw it.

I've since seen it said that it refers to "queer" instead.

I suppose there isn't any "official" acronym.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 03:22 PM   #457
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 20,683
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Well I object the re-re-purposing of queer!
So do I, but I would like to go back to when it had no inherent sexual connotations. Sometimes it is a bit jarring to read Tolkien, with his references to "queer folk" or some such.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 03:42 PM   #458
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 24,673
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Sometimes it is a bit jarring to read Tolkien, with his references to "queer folk" or some such.
Tom Sawyer's still mighty gay, too.

You could check in the Mind Your Language thread as well.

People just have to learn to read contextually.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 03:56 PM   #459
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,914
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The answer, quite seriously, seems to be that gay-rights activist groups such as Stonewall were facing huge downsizing and loss of funding and status because they had achieved all their legislative goals. Rather than be out of a job, management decided to adopt the trans-rights cause.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Rubbish. It was because it was only in the LGB "community" that many people who would now be called trans were accepted and felt free from fear and threats so could be who they wanted to. So "they" joined up with the other groupings in terms of activism.
Seeing you two argue is confusing to those of us who go off avatars.

Anyhow, given that "GLBT" goes back to the early 90s (e.g. this book) it seems fairly counterfactual to claim the "T" was tacked on after gays & lesbians had already "achieved all their legislative goals."
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/

Last edited by d4m10n; 4th July 2019 at 03:59 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 04:13 PM   #460
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,780
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Cause there’s really WAY more than one school of thought on all this stuff, and the one you’re describing is only one of them. There’s a lot of trans folks who are NOT about conforming to current society gender roles. People born female-bodied who just want to go on hormone therapy, quit having female breasts, and get called Frank, but keep their personality and presentation pretty much how it was the whole time.
Yeah, i agree which is why I said some.

I'm interested in this other example you gave, the highlighted.
What's happening there? Why do they want to go on hormone therapy, quit having breasts and get called Frank?
Seems to me they are aiming for a gender role.

Some people I have met, have taken hormone treatment with the goal to average out themselves so they aren't one gender or the other, so I couldn't accuse them of trying to conform to a gender role, they're a mixture of both.

Anyway, I thought everyone had family members that were L,g,b or T.
I have cousins/uncles/cousins kids/aunties etc and I thought it was common until I checked with other people and apparently it's not, so what do I know

Last edited by p0lka; 4th July 2019 at 04:14 PM.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 07:50 PM   #461
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,668
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You are not up on your modern lexicon.

A male bodied T would be someone with a male body, but a female gender identity, i.e. a transwoman. According to the modern notions, then that person is really and truly a woman, despite having a penis. So, if that person is attracted to men, then that makes the male-bodied T a heterosexual woman, and therefore certainly not G, nor even L. If "she" is also attracted to women, she could be a B, but that would be true regardless of T status.

There will be a quiz on this, possibly in the HR office, or at a hate speech trial if you live in Britain.
Define "modern". I remember 35 years ago at least that trans women who were attracted to women called themselves lesbians.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 08:53 PM   #462
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,615
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I love this:

Quote:
“We wanted to create the female version of a product which exists all over the world,” she [the creator] explained.

“I don’t think it’s that complicated to make a urinal for women. I just think it was something which was designed by men and they only thought about themselves.”
So it's men's fault that women couldn't figure out the urinal problem until 2019? Is she saying women really are that dumb?

I showed this new urinal to my wife. The issues are many. Aiming would be a problem for her so wet shoes and all that. Touching the sides of the urinal just doesn't work for her. The fact that anyone walking by has the opportunity to see her, and the woman using it can look down into the next urinal when standing, means she would never use it.

This isn't going to catch on. It doesn't address the problems of urination the way a urinal for men solves them. I guess it's back to the drawing board.
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2019, 01:40 AM   #463
JihadJane
not a camel
 
JihadJane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 72,892
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Define "modern". I remember 35 years ago at least that trans women who were attracted to women called themselves lesbians.
Were these heterosexual men calling themselves lesbians calling actual lesbians who disagreed and/or didn't want to have sex with them transphobes 35 years ago?
__________________
empty void in space epic wasteland so dark you have no direction and die in sensory deprivation madness all your fault anyway jerk ~ Hlafordlaes
JihadJane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2019, 02:49 AM   #464
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,913
Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I realise that 'LGBT' has become the pert acronym favoured by the media (hence BBC News has a staff "LGBT correspondent"), but not long ago it was the more unwieldy 'LGBTQ' (+) - I still don't understand why the apparent distinction between G(ay) and Q(ueer) was made.
Seems like the Q includes all of the above, so I don't know why they don't just use "queer" to emcompass all of them.

Plus, the LGB part is about orientation. The T doesn't really fit there, methinks.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2019, 07:05 AM   #465
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 90,447
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Seems like the Q includes all of the above, so I don't know why they don't just use "queer" to emcompass all of them.



Plus, the LGB part is about orientation. The T doesn't really fit there, methinks.
It fitted in because as I may have mentioned the LGB (or in my early days G) "community" were the only ones that accepted trans folk, it was only in gay pubs that you would see trans people relaxing and being who they wanted to be, without fearing violence etc. That built a shared experience so the joining in with activism was a natural step.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2019, 07:32 AM   #466
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,615
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It fitted in because as I may have mentioned the LGB (or in my early days G) "community" were the only ones that accepted trans folk, it was only in gay pubs that you would see trans people relaxing and being who they wanted to be, without fearing violence etc. That built a shared experience so the joining in with activism was a natural step.
By "early days" are you talking about pre-1980s when all these people had their own hang outs and were able to live the life they chose or the 1980s and nearer when they were set on by police and legislators?
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 02:32 AM   #467
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,913
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It fitted in because as I may have mentioned the LGB (or in my early days G) "community" were the only ones that accepted trans folk, it was only in gay pubs that you would see trans people relaxing and being who they wanted to be, without fearing violence etc. That built a shared experience so the joining in with activism was a natural step.
That's odd because I heard the exact opposite.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 03:14 AM   #468
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,348
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's odd because I heard the exact opposite.
You heard that the LGB community were the only ones that didn't accept Trans folk? That seems unlikely.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 03:39 AM   #469
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,668
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
By "early days" are you talking about pre-1980s when all these people had their own hang outs and were able to live the life they chose or the 1980s and nearer when they were set on by police and legislators?
Sorry, when????

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 03:44 AM   #470
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,668
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
By "early days" are you talking about pre-1980s when all these people had their own hang outs and were able to live the life they chose or the 1980s and nearer when they were set on by police and legislators?
Let me be more specific, there was no time pre 1980's when the gay, lesbian or transexual community were able to live the life we chose.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 04:55 AM   #471
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 90,447
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
You heard that the LGB community were the only ones that didn't accept Trans folk? That seems unlikely.
Yeah, seems very unlikely to me. But perhaps my experience in London, Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool and even little old Bolton was atypical and the LGs in other areas used to threaten the Ts with violence.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 03:11 PM   #472
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,780
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Define "modern". I remember 35 years ago at least that trans women who were attracted to women called themselves lesbians.
Nowadays, they can realise that they were never lesbians after all, they were just in the wrong body.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 04:03 PM   #473
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,668
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Nowadays, they can realise that they were never lesbians after all, they were just in the wrong body.
No, trans women who are attracted to women still call themselves lesbians. Nothing has changed in that respect.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 04:04 PM   #474
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 42,813
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
No, trans women who are attracted to women still call themselves lesbians. Nothing has changed in that respect.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
Evidence?

Also, who ******* cares about your device?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 04:32 PM   #475
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,668
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Evidence?

Also, who ******* cares about your device?
Perhaps you could try a few seconds of concentrated thought on both those counts. Unfortunately I cannot do that for you.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 04:45 PM   #476
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,668
Switched it off as it seems to bother people.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 06:43 PM   #477
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,914
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Switched it off as it seems to bother people.
Eh, don't sweat it.

Sent from my AGM-86C/D using Tapatalk
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th July 2019, 01:11 AM   #478
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,668
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Eh, don't sweat it.



Sent from my AGM-86C/D using Tapatalk
I know it well. A big competitor in the Samsung Galaxy Note 9 market space I understand.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th July 2019, 01:56 AM   #479
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,913
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
You heard that the LGB community were the only ones that didn't accept Trans folk? That seems unlikely.


Ok maybe not the literal opposite, but I heard they weren't treated well by them at all. Don't have a source for that, though.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th July 2019, 03:10 AM   #480
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 90,447
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post




Ok maybe not the literal opposite, but I heard they weren't treated well by them at all. Don't have a source for that, though.
Depends what you mean. For example in the 80s in Manchester many of the Ts would go to the New Union (not the most trendy of the few gay pubs around the area) and they certainly didn't face violence and threats in such a pub. Yes there were some issues in that some of the Gs and Ls were not that friendly or supportive but in the end the commonality of persecution brought the activists together.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:11 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.