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Old 12th February 2020, 06:00 PM   #1
Ranb
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VA Driver's Licenses for Undocumented Aliens.

Virginia Senate advances bill allowing driver's licenses for undocumented immigrants

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/12/polit...nts/index.html
Quote:
Virginia's Democratic-controlled Senate has passed legislation that would grant temporary driver's licenses to undocumented immigrants.
The measure, SB 34, which passed on a near-party-line vote of 22-18, would allow taxpaying Virginians who can prove their identities and that they know how to drive to obtain one-year driver's permits.

SB 34 text is here in part; https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/leg...201+ful+SB34S2
Quote:
B. Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection A and the provisions of 46.2-330 and 46.2-345, an applicant who presents in person valid documentary evidence of (i) a valid, unexpired nonimmigrant visa or nonimmigrant visa status for entry into the United States, (ii) a pending or approved application for asylum in the United States, (iii) entry into the United States in refugee status, (iv) a pending or approved application for temporary protected status in the United States, (v) approved deferred action status, or (vi) a pending application for adjustment of status to legal permanent residence status or conditional resident status, that a federal court or federal agency having jurisdiction over immigration has authorized the applicant to be in the United States may be issued a temporary limited-duration license, permit, or special identification card.
What am I missing here? Anyone who is authorized to be in the USA cannot be considered undocumented, or can they?

I think this claim by Terry Austin is complete nonsense though;
Quote:
"This license can be taken as the person is a citizen of the United States," Austin said. "This could misrepresent an individual's identity and compromise the safety in the United States."
For example my wife is a Thai national. She has a military ID and a driver's license. These ID's do not in any way indicate that she is an American citizen.

I think the reporter that wrote this article has no idea what they are talking about.

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Old 12th February 2020, 08:27 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Virginia Senate advances bill allowing driver's licenses for undocumented immigrants

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/12/polit...nts/index.html

SB 34 text is here in part; https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/leg...201+ful+SB34S2

What am I missing here? Anyone who is authorized to be in the USA cannot be considered undocumented, or can they?

I don't quite get what you're asking. As I understand it, current law requires Virginia DL applicants to prove they are allowed to be here.
Quote:
Current Virginia law requires those applying for licenses to provide proof of "legal presence" to show they are authorized to be in the country.
The proposed law would create a new document called a Drivers Privilege Card -- not a license -- that people could obtain by proving identity and driving skills, not legal status. A number of states do this for good reasons: people will be less likely to drive without proving they know how, they won't be afraid to be stopped by cops and cooperate with them, etc. These cards are not accepted for federal ID purposes.

Quote:
Fifteen states and the District of Columbia have enacted laws to allow unauthorized immigrants to obtain driver’s licenses.
https://www.ncsl.org/research/immigr...mmigrants.aspx

Also,
https://immigration.procon.org/state...try-illegally/

Do you see a problem?

Last edited by Bob001; 12th February 2020 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:17 PM   #3
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Sounds like a good idea.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:27 PM   #4
Ranb
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't quite get what you're asking.

Do you see a problem?
It's that the article says undocumented immigrants are going to get a driver's license. But the bill it references says the people will be well documented, not undocumented.

I'm also claiming that Terry Austin is trying to mislead people with his statement.
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Old 12th February 2020, 10:30 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sounds like a good idea.
It is normally a good idea for people who want to live/drive legally in a country to obtain a license or permit to do so.

What is silly are those who claim that people who have permission to be in the country are undocumented and others who claim a state issued ID other than a passport really has anything to do with citizenship.

My beef is with the article and some of the people who have an opinion about it, not the persons who are getting the license.
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:00 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
It's that the article says undocumented immigrants are going to get a driver's license. But the bill it references says the people will be well documented, not undocumented.

I'm also claiming that Terry Austin is trying to mislead people with his statement.
In this context, "undocumented" specifically means lacking the documents -- work visa, green card, etc. -- that allow legal residence in the U.S. An "undocumented immigrant" is a person who used to be called an "illegal alien." The term doesn't mean that a person doesn't have a birth certificate, foreign passport, Baptismal record, bank records, etc., etc. It sounds like you're misinterpreting the term.

And yes, this Terry Austin is wrong. A driver's license is not proof of citizenship and has never been used for that purpose. But you seem to be blaming the reporter for quoting a Repub opponent of the bill. That's the Repub claim, not a statement of fact, and it just makes them look foolish. The reporter's job is to report all sides.

Last edited by Bob001; 13th February 2020 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:08 AM   #7
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California has DLs for illegals. At least it means they have to ID themselves to the state, which keeps most of them a bit more honest- It is something that can be taken away.

But also in California, we need a federally approved "Real ID" to buy guns or ammo. It is amusing to me to see that the Democrats that run the state put restrictions on guns that are also Voter ID. Hahaha.

Right now in Californian there are three kinds of licenses. 1) Real ID, with a gold bear in one corner. 2) Federal Restrictions Apply- can't buy ammo or guns, or get on an airplane. 3) The old kind I still have, neither of the above. Mine runs out this month, need to take my papers to the DMV to get a Real ID. I'll need birth certificate, utility bill or tax bill for proof of residence, an old license or passport. Basically the same stuff as to get the passport.

And of last time around you got a "Federal limits apply" license, you need to do it all again. It is actually a federal law for airplane travel.

The federal "Real ID" laws were put in to make terrorism harder. Getting poerceived safety as a trade off for a Federal ID.
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Last edited by casebro; 13th February 2020 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:25 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't quite get what you're asking. As I understand it, current law requires Virginia DL applicants to prove they are allowed to be here.


The proposed law would create a new document called a Drivers Privilege Card -- not a license -- that people could obtain by proving identity and driving skills, not legal status. A number of states do this for good reasons: people will be less likely to drive without proving they know how, they won't be afraid to be stopped by cops and cooperate with them, etc. These cards are not accepted for federal ID purposes.


https://www.ncsl.org/research/immigr...mmigrants.aspx

Also,
https://immigration.procon.org/state...try-illegally/

Do you see a problem?
Fine, the day after they get a valid green card and are no longer illegally here. Until then, take the damn bus or hoof it.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:26 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In this context, "undocumented" specifically means lacking the documents -- work visa, green card, etc. -- that allow legal residence in the U.S. An "undocumented immigrant" is a person who used to be called an "illegal alien." The term doesn't mean that a person doesn't have a birth certificate, foreign passport, Baptismal record, bank records, etc., etc. It sounds like you're misinterpreting the term.

And yes, this Terry Austin is wrong. A driver's license is not proof of citizenship and has never been used for that purpose. But you seem to be blaming the reporter for quoting a Repub opponent of the bill. That's the Repub claim, not a statement of fact, and it just makes them look foolish. The reporter's job is to report all sides.
Exactly why ILLEGAL is the proper term
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:33 AM   #10
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I think this is potentially a good idea. One of the few legit, ground level complaints against a undocumented people is that if you live in area with a lot of them traffic accidents turn into goddamn nightmares and leads to a lot of hit and runs and having to deal with "I had an accident with an uninsured motorist" fun with insurance companies.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:57 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In this context, "undocumented" specifically means lacking the documents -- work visa, green card, etc. -- that allow legal residence in the U.S. An "undocumented immigrant" is a person who used to be called an "illegal alien." The term doesn't mean that a person doesn't have a birth certificate, foreign passport, Baptismal record, bank records, etc., etc. It sounds like you're misinterpreting the term.
Maybe. But the link in the OP says in part; "that a federal court or federal agency having jurisdiction over immigration has authorized the applicant to be in the United States may be issued a temporary limited-duration license, permit, or special identification card."

If a person is authorized to be in the USA then it means they are a citizen, have the appropriate visa or are a refugee of some sort. The reporting is very sloppy or I have a different definition of undocumented alien. Are there ways the government authorizes people to be in the country other than visas and other legal documents they issue?
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:59 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Fine, the day after they get a valid green card and are no longer illegally here. Until then, take the damn bus or hoof it.
There are lots of aliens legally in the USA without a green card; it was changed to a blue color decades ago also.

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Exactly why ILLEGAL is the proper term
The term illegal is used as a legal term in the US cose to describe certain immigrants. I had intended this thread to be about poor reporting standards and politicians who do not understand what a person can do with a driver's license or state ID card.

Last edited by Ranb; 13th February 2020 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:38 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Are there ways the government authorizes people to be in the country other than visas and other legal documents they issue?
DACA?
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
a federal court or federal agency having jurisdiction over immigration has authorized the applicant to be in the United States
I have two ideas about this:

1) Maybe the CNN article is wrong. Or...

2) Maybe they are only referring to those immigrants who have some sort of hold while they are going through court proceedings fighting the deportation. I don't know enough about immigration law to know if that sort of person would still count as an "undocumented immigrant" or "illegal alien" or any of the other terms one hears. I think, however, this could include Deferred Action Status people, otherwise known as "dreamers".


Then I saw this text:

Quote:
1924 C. Any license, permit, or special identification card for which an application has been made for
1925 renewal, duplication, or reissuance shall be presumed to have been issued in accordance with the
1926 provisions of subsection A, provided that, at the time the application is made, (i) the license, permit, or
1927 special identification card has not expired or been cancelled, suspended, or revoked or (ii) the license,
1928 permit, or special identification card has been canceled or suspended as a result of the applicant having
1929 been placed under medical review by the Department pursuant to 46.2-322. The requirements of
1930 subsection A shall apply, however, to a renewal, duplication, or reissuance if the Department is notified
1931 by a local, state, or federal government agency that the individual seeking such renewal, duplication, or
1932 reissuance is neither a citizen of the United States nor legally in the United States.
1933 D. The Department shall cancel any license, permit, or special identification card that it has issued to
1934 an individual if it is notified by a federal government agency that the individual is neither a citizen of
1935 the United States nor legally present in the United States.
Followed by this text:

Quote:
1939 46.2-328.3. Driver privilege cards and permits.
1940 A. Upon application of any person who does not meet the requirements for a driver's license or
1941 permit under subsection A or B of 46.2-328.1, the Department may issue to the applicant a driver
1942 privilege card or permit if the Department determines that the applicant (i) has reported income and
1943 deductions from Virginia sources, as defined in 58.1-302, on an individual income tax return filed with
1944 the Commonwealth in the preceding 12 months; and (ii) is not in violation of the insurance
1945 requirements set forth in Article 8 ( 46.2-705 et seq.) of Chapter 6.
1946 B. Driver privilege cards and permits shall confer the same privileges and shall be subject to the
1947 same provisions of this title as driver's licenses and permits issued under this chapter, unless otherwise
1948 provided, and shall be subject to the following conditions and exceptions:
1949 1. Driver privilege cards and permits shall state "NOT VALID IDENTIFICATION FOR FEDERAL,
1950 VOTING, OR PUBLIC BENEFIT PURPOSES" in conspicuous, bold print on the face of the card or
1951 permit;
1952 2. An applicant for a driver privilege card or permit shall not be eligible for a waiver of any part of
1953 the driver examination provided under 46.2-325;
1954 3. An applicant for a driver privilege card or permit shall not be required to present proof of legal
1955 presence in the United States;
So I think it may just be a sort of "don't ask, don't tell" policy. If the Feds inform Virginia that so-and-so in undocumented, then so-and-so gets no license or permit.

Then they add in something called a "Driver Privilege Card", which seems separate from the provisions relating to issuance of licenses and permits. No proof of legal status required for that. It is not clear to me if the Driver Privilege Card counts as a "Special Identification Card" as highlighted in line 1927.

That's a one confusing bill. There are lots of articles claiming that it allows driver's licenses for undocumented immigrants. But the text of the bill is far, far less clear.


ETA: After going through the law, I looked back at the CNN article, and it had this:

Quote:
Under the Drivers Privilege Cards program, individuals would have to pass written and road tests and maintain insurance.
So the text of the CNN article is correct, but the headline is misleading,

Last edited by crescent; 13th February 2020 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:08 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
......
That's a one confusing bill. There are lots of articles claiming that it allows driver's licenses for undocumented immigrants. But the text of the bill is far, far less clear.
.....
It looks pretty straightfoward. The law creates a Drivers Privilege Card that is diffeerent from a Drivers License, with different requirements which don't include proof of legal residence.

This is the entire proposed new section (bold added):
Quote:
46.2-328.3. Driver privilege cards and permits.

A. Upon application of any person who does not meet the requirements for a driver's license or permit under subsection A or B of 46.2-328.1, the Department may issue to the applicant a driver privilege card or permit if the Department determines that the applicant (i) has reported income and deductions from Virginia sources, as defined in 58.1-302, on an individual income tax return filed with the Commonwealth in the preceding 12 months; and (ii) is not in violation of the insurance requirements set forth in Article 8 ( 46.2-705 et seq.) of Chapter 6.

B. Driver privilege cards and permits shall confer the same privileges and shall be subject to the same provisions of this title as driver's licenses and permits issued under this chapter, unless otherwise provided, and shall be subject to the following conditions and exceptions:

1. Driver privilege cards and permits shall state "NOT VALID IDENTIFICATION FOR FEDERAL, VOTING, OR PUBLIC BENEFIT PURPOSES" in conspicuous, bold print on the face of the card or permit;

2. An applicant for a driver privilege card or permit shall not be eligible for a waiver of any part of the driver examination provided under 46.2-325;

3. An applicant for a driver privilege card or permit shall not be required to present proof of legal presence in the United States;

4. A driver privilege card or permit shall expire on the applicant's second birthday following the date of issuance; and

5. The fee for an original driver privilege card or permit shall be $100; however, the Department may issue, upon application by the holder of a valid, unexpired card or permit issued under this section, and upon payment of a fee of $50, another driver privilege card or permit that shall be valid for a period of two years from the date of issuance.

Last edited by Bob001; 13th February 2020 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:36 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Fine, the day after they get a valid green card and are no longer illegally here. Until then, take the damn bus or hoof it.
Why? What does legal residence have to do with making sure everybody behind the wheel knows how to drive? (And if you think people without licenses don't drive, you're dreaming.)
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:09 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Why? What does legal residence have to do with making sure everybody behind the wheel knows how to drive? (And if you think people without licenses don't drive, you're dreaming.)
The government is incentivizing illegal behavior that negatively affects its citizens and that never ends well.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:13 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The government is incentivizing illegal behavior that negatively affects its citizens and that never ends well.
But driving with a limited-purpose permit is NOT illegal. That's the point. The state government is ensuring that people driving on the public roads know how to do so, carry insurance, and have less incentive to evade or lie to the police. The cops generally support such measures because it improves public safety in multiple ways. Citizenship is a federal matter. The states don't enforce federal tax law either.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:15 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But driving with a limited-purpose permit is NOT illegal.
Illegal entry is.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:19 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The government is incentivizing illegal behavior that negatively affects its citizens and that never ends well.
Not issuing driving licenses for them would be incentivizing illegal behavior.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:23 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Not issuing driving licenses for them would be incentivizing illegal behavior.
No it wouldn't.
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:09 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Illegal entry is.
This thread is (was) about aliens who are in the country legally and documented.
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:41 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Illegal entry is.
How many people illegally enter the US to get a driving permit?

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
No it wouldn't.
Actually it would, since refusing to issue permits incentivizes those that are unable to get them to drive without them, an illegal activity.
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