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Old 21st October 2019, 10:14 AM   #241
Belz...
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I don't have a problem with public spaces requiring security checks before entering them.
Fair enough. Obviously, I do.

Quote:
And I've explained why I disagree.
That's fine. But by the same token as my opinion isn't correct by the simple virtue of being voiced, it isn't wrong by the simple virtue of you having a different one.

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Because you can't just wake up one day and decide to drive a car.
I can if I have a lisence.

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That's not how freedoms work.
Sure it is.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:15 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Freedoms and rights can be revoked as well.
Usually not without some form of due process.

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Stop making pointless distinctions. Once you've got a permit you can drive and go where you will.
I've highlighted the part that makes driving not a freedom.

Quote:
This proposal is a needless hassle that doesn't address the problem in a reasonable way.
Your opinion has been noted.

Quote:
Leaving aside that the burden would be on those in favour of the implementation, it's going to be hard to convince me that the inconvenience is worth it, especially given how I view crime and punishment: you don't assume that people need to prove that they're sober.
Again, noted. You've made your argument and I've made mine. We disagree.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:18 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There's nothing stopping you from having the device installed on your own car. As it's a matter of principle and you support it so strongly I'm wondering why you haven't already done so. Perhaps you could do that now, and report back in this thread about your experiences using it? Personal testimony would carry more weight.
I don't have this device per se, but I do keep a breathalyzer in my car for just this purpose.

However, in the age of ride-sharing, I usually just Uber or Lyft if I'm going anyplace where I might be drinking.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:18 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Seems to be an issue of who works for whom, then. I think you have it backwards, but it does clarify your POV.
You didn't take a driving test?

You rebel, you!
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:22 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Usually not without some form of due process.
Indeed, but all the same.

Quote:
I've highlighted the part that makes driving not a freedom.
Again, you're confusing rights and freedoms.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:26 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Fair enough. Obviously, I do.
Okay then.

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That's fine. But by the same token as my opinion isn't correct by the simple virtue of being voiced, it isn't wrong by the simple virtue of you having a different one.
Fair enough.

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I can if I have a lisence.

Sure it is.
You can't just leave out the part where I explain how it's not a freedom and then pretend you won the argument.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:30 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You can't just leave out the part where I explain how it's not a freedom and then pretend you won the argument.
I didn't pretend that I won. I made a statement.

And you didn't explain how it's not a freedom because you have not yet explained what constitutes a freedom. That's what I keep telling you that you're confusing freedoms and rights; to get you to explain what you think they mean.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:32 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Indeed, but all the same.
The "due process" part is a pretty important distinction.

Quote:
Again, you're confusing rights and freedoms.
I've explicitly explained how driving is not a right or freedom.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:33 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I don't have this device per se, but I do keep a breathalyzer in my car for just this purpose.

However, in the age of ride-sharing, I usually just Uber or Lyft if I'm going anyplace where I might be drinking.
I see you don't practice what you preach to the rest of us.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:34 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I didn't pretend that I won. I made a statement.

And you didn't explain how it's not a freedom because you have not yet explained what constitutes a freedom. That's what I keep telling you that you're confusing freedoms and rights; to get you to explain what you think they mean.
A freedom is something that I can do without government involvement or interference, and something I don't have to earn the ability to do.

Driving a car is not one of those things.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:35 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
A freedom is something that I can do without government involvement or interference, and something I don't have to earn the ability to do.
No. That's a right. The thing I'm not discussing.

See, I knew the problem was in the definition.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:35 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I'm disputing the notion that theses devices represent an Orwellian government intrusion into our lives.
It doesn't have to be Orwellian, to be an intrusion. In fact, take away the word "Orwellian", and what you have left is a government intrusion into our lives. Which is exactly what this proposal is: A proposal for the government to intrude into our lives.

The authors of the clauses against government intrusion, and the courts that interpret them, are not concerned with "Orwellian" intrusion. They're concerned with intrusion, plain and simple. The fact that it is government intrusion is already sufficient reason to oppose the idea, and demand that it be well-justified.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:36 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I see you don't practice what you preach to the rest of us.
I haven't preached anything to you.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:39 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
These devices would not constitute a search and seizure, but thanks for the info.
It's both, actually. Biometrics and medical data are personal and private. The government is not allowed to demand them and inspect them without good cause.

And obviously locking someone out of the use of their poperty is a seizure of that property.

But let's leave that aside for a moment: Do you agree that if it were a search, it would need to be justified according to the principles I described?
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:40 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No. That's a right. The thing I'm not discussing.

See, I knew the problem was in the definition.
Okay then, provide your definition of a freedom.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:41 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I haven't preached anything to you.
I'd make a cutting retort here but it would vanish like your credibility just did.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:41 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I usually just Uber or Lyft if I'm going anyplace where I might be drinking.
Aren't you worried that the driver might be drunk? Do you carry your breathalyzer with you, and test them before you get in the car?
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:42 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It doesn't have to be Orwellian, to be an intrusion. In fact, take away the word "Orwellian", and what you have left is a government intrusion into our lives. Which is exactly what this proposal is: A proposal for the government to intrude into our lives.

The authors of the clauses against government intrusion, and the courts that interpret them, are not concerned with "Orwellian" intrusion. They're concerned with intrusion, plain and simple. The fact that it is government intrusion is already sufficient reason to oppose the idea, and demand that it be well-justified.
Then it shouldn't be a problem for you to cite court cases drawing this same conclusion regarding the devices like these that are already in use.

I look forwarding to reading the links you provide to them.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:42 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Okay then, provide your definition of a freedom.
Very simple: it's something you can do. Has nothing to do with legal rights and privileges.

If you're preventing me from doing something, then by definition there is a loss of freedom i.e. a loss of my ability to do what I want. Now, certain losses of freedom are justifiable, but this one, for me, doesn't clear that threshold.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:44 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Then it shouldn't be a problem for you to cite court cases drawing this same conclusion regarding the devices like these that are already in use.

I look forwarding to reading the links you provide to them.
Are all your opinions based on legal precedent?

Come on, he's allowed to have his perspective, irrespective of what the laws, legislators, or judges, say.
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:50 AM   #261
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I saw of lot of posts about mouthwash, Here the cops engage you in conversation for 8 to ten minutes before testing (I've seen them checking their watch) the idea is if someone used mouthwash, this would be long enough so it will not effect the reading.

That used to be a way to beat the breathers, rinse with mouthwash or even rubbing alcohol, just before blowing, and the device will register SO HIGH, that the reading is invalid.

I though if someone wanted to they could have coupe capsules of alcohol in their mouth and crack one open just before blowing ... this would put the device way over the scale!

I've only been stopped ONCE for suspicion of drunk driving .. it the Walmart PARKING LOT of all places!

I had a habit of driving my Jeep along the 5" tall curb to get into the handicap spaces, (to drive around those stupid POLES they put in front of every spot) with those 20" rims, and suspension, it was like speed bump ... the power steering was shot and that GIANT seven passenger Jeep was difficult to steer in hight spaces.

Anyway the cop was there for a shoplifter but decided to nab me as well, after seeing my lack of driving skills, ... I had been drinking PLENTY the night before and he said he could smell it on my breath

I just got up and rushed to Walmart .. for a food emergency .. so its possible.

Anyway I after I blew into the device he was really disappointed and just goes "It says zero?" like I was to blame
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Old 21st October 2019, 10:55 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Very simple: it's something you can do. Has nothing to do with legal rights and privileges.

If you're preventing me from doing something, then by definition there is a loss of freedom i.e. a loss of my ability to do what I want. Now, certain losses of freedom are justifiable, but this one, for me, doesn't clear that threshold.
That's a good way of putting it.

Like they say freedom of speech, doesn't include shooting fire in a crowded theatre.

But that doesn't mean it's ok to strip search everyone before they watch the movie, just to check for lighters or matches.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:01 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
That's a good way of putting it.

Like they say freedom of speech, doesn't include shooting fire in a crowded theatre.

But that doesn't mean it's ok to strip search everyone before they watch the movie, just to check for lighters or matches.

One doesn't ever need to be deemed competent to enter a cinema.

One needs to be deemed competent to drive a car.

People are literally not allowed to drive cars until they've proven they're capable of doing so.

This is literally not a discussion of 'freedom' or 'right'. That's unless there are many more people driving without a license than I would suspect.


Nobody has to ever take a test to be allowed to exercise a 'right'. Driving a car isn't a 'right'.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:04 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
People are literally not allowed to drive cars until they've proven they're capable of doing so.
Yeah but I don't have to do a driver's test every time I turn on the ignition.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:13 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
One doesn't ever need to be deemed competent to enter a cinema.

One needs to be deemed competent to drive a car.

People are literally not allowed to drive cars until they've proven they're capable of doing so.

This is literally not a discussion of 'freedom' or 'right'. That's unless there are many more people driving without a license than I would suspect.


Nobody has to ever take a test to be allowed to exercise a 'right'. Driving a car isn't a 'right'.
I never mentioned anything about driving being a right .. you're fixated on that ...

... driving is a licensed activity, like any other licence activity in the modern world.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:14 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but I don't have to do a driver's test every time I turn on the ignition.
I think it would b a good idea for everyone to have to renew their license with a full driving test every 5 years or so.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:19 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
I think it would b a good idea for everyone to have to renew their license with a full driving test every 5 years or so.
Sure, but that has nothing to do with what I posted: I don't need to prove my ability to drive every time I start my car.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:21 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sure, but that has nothing to do with what I posted: I don't need to prove my ability to drive every time I start my car.
True, yeah there;s no way they could re-test you EVERY TIME you go out for a drive
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:24 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
True, yeah there;s no way they could re-test you EVERY TIME you go out for a drive
But even if there was a way, would you agree to it?
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:28 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But even if there was a way, would you agree to it?
No.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:35 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But even if there was a way, would you agree to it?
Never!
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:39 AM   #272
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Exactly my point.

Most people aren't drunk when driving. I think it's an unreasonable burden to ask them to prove it every time.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:40 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but I don't have to do a driver's test every time I turn on the ignition.

Nobody does. That's abundantly obvious from the general standard of driving on the roads. At least, where I live.

And it's not my point. Anyone stating that driving is a 'right' is just, well, just wrong. You don't have to take a test to exercise a right. Anything you have to takie a test for isn't a right.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:41 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
I never mentioned anything about driving being a right .. you're fixated on that ...
Apologies, I was addressing the tone of the argument from others as well as your post.

Quote:
... driving is a licensed activity, like any other licence activity in the modern world.

yup
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:43 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Nobody does. That's abundantly obvious from the general standard of driving on the roads. At least, where I live.
Oh, if it were up to me the standard for a driver's license would be much higher. I expect it would cut down traffic to about 35%.
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Old 21st October 2019, 11:56 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Collecting such data on someone who has been convicted of DWI makes sense.

Collecting and transmitting such data from a preemptive system is an extra, unnecessary expense. There's no reason such a feature would be included or optional.
Um, cars are already connected to the internet 24/7. Collecting such data would be a trivial effort.
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Old 21st October 2019, 12:03 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Um, cars are already connected to the internet 24/7. Collecting such data would be a trivial effort.
Which is where it starts to become an issue for me because I see this as being a slippery slope.

What would stop drunk person A from having their friend blow into the thingie? Well, to prevent that, we're just going to get a little bit of your DNA to make sure it's you. Just to be extra sure, we're going to take a little picture of you while you blow into it. Just to make sure everyone is safe.

Well, since we have that information, and your car has wifi we'll just upload it to a database. After all, we don't want you getting in trouble if something wasn't recorded.

Then a whole scale of other issues. I just don't see this as needed or necessary, and I also don't see it passing through the court system either. There are multiple counties\cities\states that are reversing red light cameras because they're overreach and don't function properly all of the time. This would be a car manufacturers nightmare.
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Old 21st October 2019, 12:11 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I think that the insistence of certain posters that a significant number of people would remain committed to drunk driving says more about the lifestyle choices of those posters than those of the general population.
On a busy day, I might have as many as 100 stops. Think what that would do to extend my work hours. It isn't a "lifestyle choice", it's no choice. I don't want to drink and drive, but I certainly don't want to extend my working day by hours TYVM. When starting my car becomes a longer process than swapping out a faulty router, I have a problem on a practical level.
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Old 21st October 2019, 12:16 PM   #279
Bob001
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Um, cars are already connected to the internet 24/7. Collecting such data would be a trivial effort.
Maybe if you have Onstar or a similar service, but I don't think that's generally true.
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Old 21st October 2019, 12:22 PM   #280
theprestige
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Um, cars are already connected to the internet 24/7. Collecting such data would be a trivial effort.
Cars in general? Or a very few luxury models?
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