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Old 12th December 2019, 12:25 AM   #441
Orphia Nay
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
[...]Everybody knows that there's no way, no how that governments are going to being emissions down by 7.6%/year over the next 8-11 years. Everybody knows that these reductions have to happen globally ( except India and China, don't mention those because that's right out of the climate change denier's playbook ) and everybody knows these reductions have to start happening today.

Yet very people are want to willingly participate in making those reductions happen....strange that.
The people opposing the changes are resisting some form of changes in their lives.

Desperate people want help from higher up.

They are hurting for some reason.


Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
FFS - GT parroting the word "science" over and over doesn't mean she has the first effing clue about actual science beyond what's taught to her in her secondary-school classes. The day it's confirmed that she's got an IQ more than 10 or 20 points above the median for Europids, IOW that she's a certified prodigy/genius, I might begin to take her seriously, but I'm pretty sure we'd have been hearing about it non-stop from day-one were it the case. So as far as I'm concerned, she and the dog/pony show surrounding her are exactly what they seem - a fraud


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Every time I try to talk to you, you ignore me and then lie about my position. I've lost track of the number of times I've corrected you about the nature of my objection to Thunberg's activism, but you keep repeating the same lies about it.


More misrepresentation. I never said I don't see the point of conferences.

I have said that I don't see the point of people flying around the world to meet personally with Greta and help her sail to this particular conference. Nor do I see much point to her being at COP25 at all.

If you see a point, I wish you would stop misrepresenting my position and explain what point you see.
All I see is that you don't see something.


I think I've explained "the point" but you've asked again, so no worries.


The point I see is not one point.

It's many reasons.

The reasons are everything we're talking about in this thread, and so much more, thanks to the presence of scientists, and what happens out of them being there*.

{*Just gave the panicked an opening to segue into a rant that "nothing will come of it" so they can just stay in their fear zone and not go looking for their own answers to their own questions.}
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Old 12th December 2019, 12:33 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
If she was a prominent promoter of fashion she wouldn't have got the award.
Fashion isn't a word only associated with clothing
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Old 12th December 2019, 12:33 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
I live near the ocean, haven't noticed any difference in sea level since I was a child. When will I start to notice? When will it begin to cause problems? I was told decades ago that I would have already noticed. This is a serious question, by the way. I'm not trying to make a snarky point.

The sea is not flat, you would know there are tides, of course.

There is local melting of current or seasonal regional ice and snow.

The condensation and precipitation (weather patterns) form and disperse all over the place, dropping bulges (not sure if that's the correct terminology) in an area before they rise and drift elsewhere again.

The water levels in a weather event area rise, condensation rises, drifts, falls to earth again, causing another localised event.

What part of the world are you in?

This relates to the Antarctic climate and ecosystems, my general climate event region:

http://canute2.sealevelrise.info/Abo...vel%20Rise.php

"The most recent report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change indicated that, during this century, sea level is expected to rise about 0.2-0.8 m over the 21st century, in the absence of significant mitigation of greenhouse-gas emissions."

"Sea-level rise will be experienced mainly as an increase in the frequency or likelihood of flooding events, rather than simply as a steady increase in an otherwise constant level.

"The figure shows the rate of increase of frequency of flooding events for Australia for a 0.5 m rise in mean sea level, which will almost certainly be attained during this century. On average, Australia will experience a roughly 300-fold increase in flooding events, meaning that infrastructure that is presently flooded once in 100 years will be flooded several times per year after a sea-level rise of 0.5 m."

I looked that up to clarify my understanding of meteorology, and learned figures.

What part of the world are you in?


I love to ask my questions into a search engine, and see where it takes me.

I've spoilered another ramble if that was enough for one day for you.
I still sometimes feel like a tired little kid wanting someone to explain things to us, and it's especially worse when we're tired, worried, and being asked to do something we're not prepared for.

I saw Bill Gates recommending a book today, called "Prepared".

It's about how children need to be taught how to explore their curiosity.

We were all taught by having data and theories drilled into us.

Often we were taught data and from books that were out of date when our teachers were taught it.

(See an earlier year's Gates recommendation, the superlative, Factfulness, by Nobel prize-winning physician, Hans Rosling. Rosling's book mentions The Amazing Meeting, and it being a gathering of "some of the smartest people in the world".)

At the end of Gates' Facebook Story for his recommendation, he asked the question:

If you could design a school, how would it look?
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Last edited by Orphia Nay; 12th December 2019 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 12th December 2019, 01:04 AM   #444
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Thought experiment using the COP25 website:

https://unfccc.int/cop25

Open the link using a new tab.

See if you can bring us back the answer to a question you were looking for:
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Old 12th December 2019, 02:04 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
That's awesome, I love the fact that more and more people are doing this. I've eaten a vegan diet for the past 25 years and have never regretted it or experienced anything other than benefit. Lots of ways to do it wrong, and lots of ways to do it right, so hang in there if you ever have a time where you think it's not working. Most likely you'd just need to tweak things a bit.

I find it extremely hypocritical that more of the people who express such alarm and concern about climate change are not giving up meat and animal products.
I started a vegan thread.

So many tips and things to talk about!
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Old 12th December 2019, 06:25 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
If she was a prominent promoter of fashion she wouldn't have got the award.
She got Vogue Magazine's Woman of the Year award. She's a prominent promoter of what's fashionable this year: climate change protest.
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Old 12th December 2019, 07:45 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post

Congratulations, you've been fooled by a decades-long propaganda campaign designed and spearheaded by the fossil-fuel and plastics-production industries to promote the lie that the actual way to "save the environment" - and now, lately, "do something about climate change" - is not increased government regulation by way of campaigning at the ballot box and industry-changing activism, but rather quiet and nondisruptive personal action on the individual citizen level. Just "do your part" by sorting your trash and using cloth grocery bags and if everybody just did that the environment would be fine.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.” I’m not saying the oil companies are angles, but IMO it’s more of a self induced issue created by an irrational attachment to underlying political beliefs.

a) Libertarians want to believe that the optimal world can only be achieved though rational individual choices
b) Libertarians want to believe they are rational beings that will make rational choices

Climate change challenges the first belief and the consequences are too big to simply be written off or ignored and it can only be adequately addressed by collective action. They must either weaken their stance on collective action, making them Liberals, or deny the science. The fact that they did not become Liberals tells us what choice they made.

Now, along comes Greta and all she is really saying is that people should listen to the scientists and act accordingly. This is what a rational person would do but it’s something Libertarians cannot do, because it puts them on a course that must end with them rejecting Libertarianism. In s sense, Greta’s very simple obvious message is challenging their rationality, and IMO this is why they find her so annoying.

In their minds her message serves as an insult to their intelligence and rationality, but they can’t formulate a rational response to it so they get angry and invent irrational response. This only serves to make them seem even less rational, making the “insult” worse, so they get even more angry, and the cycle continues. They are really just grasping for anything that can make this troublesome cognitive dissonance go away.
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Old 12th December 2019, 07:54 AM   #448
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Does anyone share my amusement that posters who have bunched undies due to Greta speaking out have posted to this thread and the prior thread over three hundred times -- individual posters that is -- speaking out in opposition to Greta?
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Old 12th December 2019, 08:01 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Does anyone share my amusement that posters who have bunched undies due to Greta speaking out have posted to this thread and the prior thread over three hundred times -- individual posters that is -- speaking out in opposition to Greta?
What I find amusing is that the people making so many posts insist that “problem” they have is that people are obsessed with her.
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Old 12th December 2019, 08:18 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
What I find amusing is that the people making so many posts insist that “problem” they have is that people are obsessed with her.
What I find amusing is The Climate Emergency thread remaining stone silent, while hundreds of posts here cheer or lampoon Greta Thunberg personally, who is offering somewhere between little and nothing while getting Vogue, Time, and other awards for it.

It's a sign of the times, I suppose, that people would rather talk and look concerned, than get their hands dirty. Much easier to voice support than work and all that.

For my part, I wish Greta the best and hope that she retains her adolescent idealism into adulthood, when it gets much harder.
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Old 12th December 2019, 08:18 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
What I find amusing is that the people making so many posts insist that “problem” they have is that people are obsessed with her.
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Old 12th December 2019, 08:24 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Thought "deplatforming" was ok and a good tactic with the left?
There was a small counter protest when Thunberg did her thing in Edmonton. It was pretty quiet when held up to the what we've come to expect from the deplatforming types.
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Old 12th December 2019, 08:24 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.” I’m not saying the oil companies are angles, but IMO it’s more of a self induced issue created by an irrational attachment to underlying political beliefs.

a) Libertarians want to believe that the optimal world can only be achieved though rational individual choices
b) Libertarians want to believe they are rational beings that will make rational choices

Climate change challenges the first belief and the consequences are too big to simply be written off or ignored and it can only be adequately addressed by collective action. They must either weaken their stance on collective action, making them Liberals, or deny the science. The fact that they did not become Liberals tells us what choice they made.

Now, along comes Greta and all she is really saying is that people should listen to the scientists and act accordingly. This is what a rational person would do but it’s something Libertarians cannot do, because it puts them on a course that must end with them rejecting Libertarianism. In s sense, Greta’s very simple obvious message is challenging their rationality, and IMO this is why they find her so annoying.

In their minds her message serves as an insult to their intelligence and rationality, but they can’t formulate a rational response to it so they get angry and invent irrational response. This only serves to make them seem even less rational, making the “insult” worse, so they get even more angry, and the cycle continues. They are really just grasping for anything that can make this troublesome cognitive dissonance go away.
What do Libertarians have to do with this?
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Old 12th December 2019, 08:29 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
The people opposing the changes are resisting some form of changes in their lives.

Desperate people want help from higher up.

They are hurting for some reason.
It's probably guilt. They know they trashed the planet and refuse to stop trashing the planet and a few minutes defending protest action as the only action they deserve worthy of taking helps to assuage some of that guilt.

It's resistance to change, really, and it's understandable.

COP25 looks like a total wash out. 2500 people, who knows how many flights and the planet just got a little hotter because of it.
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Old 12th December 2019, 08:36 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What I find amusing is The Climate Emergency thread remaining stone silent, while hundreds of posts here cheer or lampoon Greta Thunberg personally, who is offering somewhere between little and nothing while getting Vogue, Time, and other awards for it... <snip>
Both times you've mentioned this thread, I've gone off looking, briefly, and not found.

Meanwhile, I'm left to assume you're a Rasputin devotee, having not seen you weigh in against Rasputin. (Search varwoche rasputin.)
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Old 12th December 2019, 08:37 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Does anyone share my amusement that posters who have bunched undies due to Greta speaking out have posted to this thread and the prior thread over three hundred times -- individual posters that is -- speaking out in opposition to Greta?
This has come up a few times now, this creepy obsession about how many times people are posting on a message board.

So what ?

Greataphiles have a high post count too, do thy not ?
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Old 12th December 2019, 08:38 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
COP25 looks like a total wash out. 2500 people, who knows how many flights and the planet just got a little hotter because of it.
Actually 25,000.
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Old 12th December 2019, 08:44 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Both times you've mentioned this thread, I've gone off looking, briefly, and not found.

Meanwhile, I'm left to assume you're a Rasputin devotee, having not seen you weigh in against Rasputin. (Search varwoche rasputin.)
You couldn't find the thread titled The Climate Emergency in this subforum? Hm.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...mate+emergency

eta: searching 'varwoche Rasputin' only turned up this post. Is there a joke I'm not getting? I'm a little stupid.

Is the joke that you made your terms up and doesn't exist, while mine were easily findable and indicated correctly by name and location? We have very different senses of humor, if so.
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Old 12th December 2019, 09:07 AM   #459
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What gets me is how consistently the Greta fanclub keeps lying about the nature of the dissent. Orphia Nay lies about it. Lionking lies about it. Varwoche and lomiller keep lying about it.

I'd take their anger over my dissent a lot more seriously if they showed any understanding of what they were angry about.

Last edited by theprestige; 12th December 2019 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 12th December 2019, 09:21 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What gets me is how consistently the Greta fanclub keeps lying about the nature of the dissent. Orphia Nay lies about it. Lionking lies about it. Varwoche and lomiller keep lying about it.

I'd take their anger over my dissent a lot more seriously if they showed any understanding of what they were angry about.
Fan club? Someone else said I was obsessed with her. My first post to a Greta thread happened yesterday.

I take an extremely dim view of posters who cry "liar" without at least seeking clarification first.
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Old 12th December 2019, 09:28 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Fan club? Someone else said I was obsessed with her. My first post to a Greta thread happened yesterday.

I take an extremely dim view of posters who cry "liar" without at least seeking clarification first.
My apologies. I've stricken your name from the list.
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Old 12th December 2019, 09:29 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You couldn't find the thread titled The Climate Emergency in this subforum? Hm.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...mate+emergency

eta: searching 'varwoche Rasputin' only turned up this post. Is there a joke I'm not getting? I'm a little stupid.

Is the joke that you made your terms up and doesn't exist, while mine were easily findable and indicated correctly by name and location? We have very different senses of humor, if so.
No, I didn't see it in my brief search. I'm not actually Sherlock. Thanks for the link.

My point that you somehow fail to grasp is that you're drawing conclusions based on non posts. I'm trying to show you how inane that is.

"Hmm" ... I'm disinclined to engage with posters who question my sincerity.
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Old 12th December 2019, 09:34 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Fan club? Someone else said I was obsessed with her. My first post to a Greta thread happened yesterday.

I take an extremely dim view of posters who cry "liar" without at least seeking clarification first.
It happens.

Especially with emotionally charged topics like this.

Only last week I got accused of lying about voting by someone who knew full well that there was a Canadian election last October which was well after when Thunberg first burst into the media spotlight with her uberboat trip and political message last August.
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Old 12th December 2019, 09:38 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
No, I didn't see it in my brief search. I'm not actually Sherlock. Thanks for the link.

My point that you somehow fail to grasp is that you're drawing conclusions based on non posts. I'm trying to show you how inane that is.

"Hmm" ... I'm disinclined to engage with posters who question my sincerity.
Not questioning your sincerity; genuinely perplexed by the joke. I thought the two parts were tied together somehow. I think I get it now.

eta: like virtually the entire forum, I read between the lines of posts. But I think it fair anyway to draw the conclusion that posters who currently engage in no discussion at all on the actual issue of climate change, but go to great lengths to post for months cheering for Greta, are not interested in climate change, but in cheering for Greta.
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Old 12th December 2019, 09:43 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
What I find amusing is that the people making so many posts insist that “problem” they have is that people are obsessed with her.
For some, the problem they have is actually with the last word of your sentence. They'd have a lot less problem if it was "him".
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Old 12th December 2019, 09:51 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
For some, the problem they have is actually with the last word of your sentence. They'd have a lot less problem if it was "him".
You could be on to something here but it probably has more to do with some people feeling a need to protect Thunberg because she's a girl rather than anything to do with criticizing Thunberg's actions and words because she's a girl.
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Old 12th December 2019, 09:52 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What I find amusing is The Climate Emergency thread remaining stone silent, while hundreds of posts here cheer or lampoon Greta Thunberg personally, who is offering somewhere between little and nothing while getting Vogue, Time, and other awards for it.

It's a sign of the times, I suppose, that people would rather talk and look concerned, than get their hands dirty. Much easier to voice support than work and all that.
The science on climate change is so one sided that the climate change deniers are no longer willing to engage on the subject. They have shifted all their efforts to criticizing people like Greta who speak up on the issue, so threads like this is where the discussion happens.
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Old 12th December 2019, 09:56 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
For some, the problem they have is actually with the last word of your sentence. They'd have a lot less problem if it was "him".
I doubt it. They were equally obsessed with Al Gore when his stance on climate change was more prominent. Most of them hardly know anything about James Hansen, but they are all over him when he's in the news too.
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Old 12th December 2019, 10:00 AM   #469
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What would Greta say to folks that white knight her without " doing something " to push for positive climate changes?

Lifestyle changes, changes in transport usage, voting for eco candidates and pressures on current government to rethink methods?
More part of the problem than the solution, my guess.
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Old 12th December 2019, 10:02 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The science on climate change is so one sided that the climate change deniers are no longer willing to engage on the subject. They have shifted all their efforts to criticizing people like Greta who speak up on the issue, so threads like this is where the discussion happens.
It was Matthew Best who shifted the discussion here. MB has done his share of bumping the thread with Greta news, as have the other Gretaphiles.

There's a thread for climate change discussion. Feel free to shift the discussion back there any time. If you don't like the way Matthew Best has shifted the discussion over here, take it up with him.
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Old 12th December 2019, 10:12 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The science on climate change is so one sided that the climate change deniers are no longer willing to engage on the subject. They have shifted all their efforts to criticizing people like Greta who speak up on the issue, so threads like this is where the discussion happens.
Run that by me again please?

What stops those interested in climate change from discussing it on a thread dedicated to the subject? What forces them to only discuss the matter in terms of debate and ridiculing?

Are you saying that dismissal and ridicule are the only forms of discussion such posters can sustain? I have a hard time believing that. I think they choose to only engage negatively on the subject. They also choose to avoid constructive discussion.
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Old 12th December 2019, 10:28 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The science on climate change is so one sided that the climate change deniers are no longer willing to engage on the subject. They have shifted all their efforts to criticizing people like Greta who speak up on the issue, so threads like this is where the discussion happens.
If you rad the comments sections of news articles, you'll quickly find that climate change denial, real climate change denial, is alive and well.

Since this forum has the word skeptic in the title, there's a real want, a real need to attack all forms of woo and in that absence of that woo, sometimes there's a need to create that woo in order to attack it.
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Old 12th December 2019, 10:38 AM   #473
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
For some, the problem they have is actually with the last word of your sentence. They'd have a lot less problem if it was "him".
More lies about the nature of the dissent.
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Old 12th December 2019, 10:45 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
More lies about the nature of the dissent.
How can you be sure?
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Old 12th December 2019, 10:53 AM   #475
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The Trump War Room photoshops Trump's head onto Thunberg's body so he can have the Time cover after all:

https://twitter.com/TrumpWarRoom/sta...69926256816128

Twitter responds as you'd expect.
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Old 12th December 2019, 11:01 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
How can you be sure?
That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Old 12th December 2019, 11:02 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I therefore dismiss your claim that there were "lies".
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Old 12th December 2019, 11:04 AM   #478
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
The Trump War Room photoshops Trump's head onto Thunberg's body so he can have the Time cover after all:

https://twitter.com/TrumpWarRoom/sta...69926256816128

Twitter responds as you'd expect.
Rent free.
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Old 12th December 2019, 11:08 AM   #479
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Who would pay to live in Trump's head though?
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Old 12th December 2019, 11:12 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
The Trump War Room photoshops Trump's head onto Thunberg's body
I like this one better:
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