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Tags Iran incidents , Qasem Soleimani , Trump controversies , US-Iran relations

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Old 5th January 2020, 03:37 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Would that be the Kurds that Trump dumped and left to the mercy of Erdogan a few months back?

Yeah, I'm sure they would be happy to help the US now.

No, that have been the Syrian Kurds. The Iraqi Kurds are deep in the pocket of the Empire.

The claim that the resolution is "non-binding" is typical propaganda speech by BBC etc. "Non-binding" to whom? The government? Well, it was the prime minister who asked the parliament for the action. Duh.

And if with a 170-0 vote the rest of the 328 are present or (no doubt bribed and/or threatened to) stay away is irrelevant to the fact that a majority voted for the resolution.
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Old 5th January 2020, 03:57 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
When you have to bury the people. The non combatants. The babies and children. The elderly. People just innocently going about their lives. The kind of deaths that would outrage and be tearfully mourned if they were our own. What a ******** dehumanising lie the expression “collateral damage” is.
Exactly. I read of "acceptable collateral damage" and I think of my own wife and children, of my friends and relatives. And it does not seem so coldly "acceptable."

At least one study found that conservatives possessed less empathy than liberals, less ability to imagine others might have the same needs, desires, and emotions as themselves. That ultimately we are all much the same.

Last edited by Giordano; 5th January 2020 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 5th January 2020, 04:00 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Exactly. I read of "acceptable collateral damage" and I think of my own wife and children, of my friends and relatives. And it does not seem so coldly "acceptable."
Well, you know what Yoda would say to that.
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Old 5th January 2020, 04:03 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Now, I'm aware of my principles, and of my reasoning, and purely as a matter of military reward versus risk of collateral damage, this was a justifiable attack. I'd be interested to see reasoning from the same principles to a different conclusion.
But surely you understand that this is a matter of judgement and priorities rather than something objectively correct or incorrect.

I think what you would find is that the person watching the television in Boston may have different priorities, and different levels of acceptable risk, than the person crossing the street in Baghdad.
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Old 5th January 2020, 04:41 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Exactly. I read of "acceptable collateral damage" and I think of my own wife and children, of my friends and relatives. And it does not seem so coldly "acceptable."

At least one study found that conservatives possessed less empathy than liberals, less ability to imagine others might have the same needs, desires, and emotions as themselves. That ultimately we are all much the same.
Indeed. One of the issues here is that many seem to want and expect Iran to act like a dog that expects to get beaten. Despite the fact the we ourselves would not act that way if the situation were reversed.

Iran may make some hard decisions. But they will not turn into the boot-licking curs that many seem to expect. They may be willing to take a good many very hard hits in the service of the long game. A lot of the current war-mongering speech coming from the right reminds me far too much of Cheney's "we will be greeted as liberators" comment preceding the 2003 invasion.

Are we that incapable of learning?
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Old 5th January 2020, 05:10 PM   #566
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Trump Tweets

These Media Posts will serve as notification to the United States Congress that should Iran strike any U.S. person or target, the United States will quickly & fully strike back, & perhaps in a disproportionate manner. Such legal notice is not required, but is given nevertheless!
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Old 5th January 2020, 05:12 PM   #567
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Trump is using Twitter as a way of declaring war on Iran without even notifying Congress through official means.
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Old 5th January 2020, 05:20 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Ok. One thing I found aggravating is the stories I read about it didn't mention the vote tallies, or give any analysis. i.e. they didn't say, "By a vote of 102-69, the Iraqi parliament voted....." and they certainly didn't say "But a lot of people didn't show up to vote". I did read that it was "non-binding".

Those details are pretty darned important to anyone who actually wants to understand what happened.
For people who want to understand, yes it's important. Unfortunately, that's not a very large group.
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Old 5th January 2020, 05:23 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
When you have to bury the people. The non combatants. The babies and children. The elderly. People just innocently going about their lives. The kind of deaths that would outrage and be tearfully mourned if they were our own. What a ******** dehumanising lie the expression “collateral damage” is.
There are times when those who have to bury the mangled children would rather deal with that then the alternative. In those situations, collateral damage is not a lie.
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Old 5th January 2020, 05:31 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Would that be the Kurds that Trump dumped and left to the mercy of Erdogan a few months back?

Yeah, I'm sure they would be happy to help the US now.
And yet a significant portion of Iraqi Kurds declined to participate.
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Old 5th January 2020, 05:45 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The US has lesion officers with many armed forces. Are they responsible for the actions of those forces? As in the links above are the US responsible for the terrorism perpetrated by CIA funded paramilitaries? Since the US has liaison officers with the Iraqis why is Iran blamed for action by Iraqi army paramilitaries rather than the US?

From the PoV of many brown people from a Muslim heritage like myself the only difference seems to be killing white people is terrorism killing brown people is collateral damage, retaliation, prevention all weasel words for what is frankly terrorism, killing as many brown people as is needed to cow them into submission.
I am sure it is a false equivalence. 99% of terrorist acts (suicide vests, beheadings, stabbing members of the public at random [cf London Bridge, Paris], hostage holding [Biggs], running down innocent pedestrians [cf Westminster, Stockholm, German Christmas Markets], holding entire schools to ransom [Chechnyna], or music gigs and theatres [Batalan, Russia], all appear to be perpetrated by a certain sect.

So, not like-for-like.
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Old 5th January 2020, 05:58 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am sure it is a false equivalence. 99% of terrorist acts (suicide vests, beheadings, stabbing members of the public at random [cf London Bridge, Paris], hostage holding [Biggs], running down innocent pedestrians [cf Westminster, Stockholm, German Christmas Markets], holding entire schools to ransom [Chechnyna], or music gigs and theatres [Batalan, Russia], all appear to be perpetrated by a certain sect.

So, not like-for-like.
Factually incorrect. They aren't even the majority in the US at least.
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Old 5th January 2020, 05:59 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
There are times when those who have to bury the mangled children would rather deal with that then the alternative. In those situations, collateral damage is not a lie.
Collateral damage is a classic euphemism. It is absolutely a lie. A sugar coated lie that we are fed by generals and politicians on cable news. We dehumanise the victims of our atrocities.
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:04 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Is there an example in history which demonstrates this? I know of examples where attrition of skilled pilots, of skilled submarine commanders have significantly degraded the military actions of a country, but not an example where generals were systematically targeted by the opposing side with the type of success such as you describe.
My father, who was in the R.A.F., related that whilst billeted at Kirkham, one early morning breakfast time, gliders started passing overhead - a very large number of gliders - on their way to “ARNHEM” (famous WWII battle). The Commandos or parachutists were slaughtered by General von Rundstedt, thinking it was the allied invasion. Major setback for the Brits and Allied Forces, even if the mortalities were the result of a German misjudgement.
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:06 PM   #575
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People of Iranian descent being detained at the US border and airports, regardless of actual citizenship.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213883793435586560

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213862728798003202
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:08 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Collateral damage is a classic euphemism. It is absolutely a lie. A sugar coated lie that we are fed by generals and politicians on cable news. We dehumanise the victims of our atrocities.
OK. Given the terrible fact that brutal violence isn't vanishing any time soon, would you prefer the term unintended victims? Or obscene losses a group is willing to accept to destroy a greater evil?
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:10 PM   #577
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
OK. Given the terrible fact that brutal violence isn't vanishing any time soon, would you prefer the term unintended victims?
I think the word victims is appropriate. They are not unintended if no effort is made to avoid them.
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:12 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am sure it is a false equivalence. 99% of terrorist acts (suicide vests, beheadings, stabbing members of the public at random [cf London Bridge, Paris], hostage holding [Biggs], running down innocent pedestrians [cf Westminster, Stockholm, German Christmas Markets], holding entire schools to ransom [Chechnyna], or music gigs and theatres [Batalan, Russia], all appear to be perpetrated by a certain sect.

So, not like-for-like.
You'd be mistaken to look at the "sect" alone.

ISIL cells helped flex their imperialist arms. It's part of their hybrid war against the west. They didn't claim responsibility for the truck attack.

The Russian theater siege and school sieges by Caucasian insurgents were a direct response to a phony war that claimed almost 50,000 civilian lives that went on long after the separatists had sued for peace.

It pays to examine the context in which these attacks occurred. To put them under a single extremist umbrella isn't helpful.

Hell, during the Iraq and Afghanistan wars some fighters attacked Americans without being initially connected to any of the main sectarian insurgencies at all.
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:17 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I think the word victims is appropriate. They are not unintended if no effort is made to avoid them.
First off... what if there are efforts made? Second, what term should be used to differentiate intended from unintended victims?
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:24 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Collateral damage is a classic euphemism. It is absolutely a lie. A sugar coated lie that we are fed by generals and politicians on cable news. We dehumanise the victims of our atrocities.
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
OK. Given the terrible fact that brutal violence isn't vanishing any time soon, would you prefer the term unintended victims? Or obscene losses a group is willing to accept to destroy a greater evil?
"A greater evil" is a cop-out that dehumanises all those who do not intend to kill civilians.

War is individuals vs individuals, not "category vs category".

War is the result of trying to make laws and divisions that of course fail to cater to all likely circumstances and events.
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:27 PM   #581
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
War is the result of trying to make laws and divisions that of course fail to cater to all likely circumstances and events.
That's... not what war is. At all.
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:36 PM   #582
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
"A greater evil" is a cop-out that dehumanises all those who do not intend to kill civilians.

War is individuals vs individuals, not "category vs category".

War is the result of trying to make laws and divisions that of course fail to cater to all likely circumstances and events.
"A greater evil" is not always a cop-out. Not at all. Sometimes, of course, it is.

The rest of this post represents a mangled self-indulgence some unfortunate people can't afford.
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:49 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
War is the result of trying to make laws and divisions that of course fail to cater to all likely circumstances and events.
...what?
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:49 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
"A greater evil" is a cop-out that dehumanises all those who do not intend to kill civilians.

War is individuals vs individuals, not "category vs category".

War is the result of trying to make laws and divisions that of course fail to cater to all likely circumstances and events.
This was the equivalent of assassinating Reinhard heydrich in 1942. It was justified... but was it worth it?
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Old 5th January 2020, 07:36 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Indeed. One of the issues here is that many seem to want and expect Iran to act like a dog that expects to get beaten. Despite the fact the we ourselves would not act that way if the situation were reversed.

Iran may make some hard decisions. But they will not turn into the boot-licking curs that many seem to expect. They may be willing to take a good many very hard hits in the service of the long game. A lot of the current war-mongering speech coming from the right reminds me far too much of Cheney's "we will be greeted as liberators" comment preceding the 2003 invasion.

Are we that incapable of learning?
Iran is one of the few cultures that can boast of this quality to persevere through adversity or even defeat.

Over and over again they were conquered, but check back 3-5 generations later. Their conquerors look like, talk like, dress like, and act like Iranians. The land (and people) always seem to quietly conquer it all back. This has contributed towards a mindset in Iranian culture of hardships being "a temporary state of affairs" and one should think wisely about their role and capacity to sustain or resist that state.
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Old 5th January 2020, 07:42 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's... not what war is. At all.
It's far, far more complicated.

For a start, it's not "us vs evil" if "evil" is defined as "Iran", or "USA" for example.
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Old 5th January 2020, 08:02 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
OK. Given the terrible fact that brutal violence isn't vanishing any time soon, would you prefer the term unintended victims? Or obscene losses a group is willing to accept to destroy a greater evil?
If wishes are on offer, could we use their names, hear from their loved ones and mourn the loss?
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Old 5th January 2020, 08:11 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
If wishes are on offer, could we use their names, hear from their loved ones and mourn the loss?
Go right ahead. But while you're satisfying your needs, others may find themselves in situations where accurate communication is vital. Those unfortunate folk may not have time to debate semantics when dealing with the wretched circumstances they find themselves in.
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Old 5th January 2020, 08:16 PM   #589
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
First off... what if there are efforts made? Second, what term should be used to differentiate intended from unintended victims?
First off.... targeting a crowd of people in order to kill one specific person in that crowd makes no effort to avoid killing the others.

Second, target.
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Old 5th January 2020, 08:42 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
First off.... targeting a crowd of people in order to kill one specific person in that crowd makes no effort to avoid killing the others.

Second, target.
But choosing circumstances from a set of possible situations, on the basis of minimizing non-target fatalities and avoiding civilian risk to a high degree is making an effort. It may or may not be enough of an effort for me, but it's significantly greater than zero.

I have no problem using the terms "target" and "non-target". But you're going to be accused of dehumanizing victims, so you should prepare yourself for that ahead of time.
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Old 5th January 2020, 08:51 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Collateral damage is a classic euphemism. It is absolutely a lie. A sugar coated lie that we are fed by generals and politicians on cable news. We dehumanise the victims of our atrocities.
Perfectly put.

Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This was the equivalent of assassinating Reinhard heydrich in 1942. It was justified... but was it worth it?
Excellent analogy and no, absolutely not worth it, as evinced nicely by the number of dead Czechs.

But then, Trump would need to know some history to get that point.
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Old 5th January 2020, 09:04 PM   #592
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Excellent analogy and no, absolutely not worth it, as evinced nicely by the number of dead Czechs.
But was the assassination, without the advantage of hindsight, justified? Was it ethical?
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Old 5th January 2020, 09:42 PM   #593
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I suspect that at least some terrorists view the killing of innocent civilians as an "unavoidable" necessity that is required to achieve their aims. Intentional targets, yes, but an "unfortunate" necessity for the achievement of their "real" goals.

"We have to unintentionally kill innocents to battle truly evil guys" vs. "We have to intentionally kill innocent people to battle truly evil governments."

I am not saying in any way that these are morally equivalent! Just pointing out that one needs to be very careful when one begins to rationalize killing innocent lives. The dead must be remembered as once real people with lives as valuable as our own rather than hide the reality with euphemisms.

And sure, some or many terrorists appear to actually enjoy the killing...

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Old 5th January 2020, 11:12 PM   #594
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
It's far, far more complicated.
Than what? My statement had nothing to do with complexity. Your description of war was just nonsense.

Quote:
For a start, it's not "us vs evil" if "evil" is defined as "Iran", or "USA" for example.
What connection does that have to my post?
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Old 5th January 2020, 11:33 PM   #595
Orphia Nay
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
"A greater evil" is a cop-out that dehumanises all those who do not intend to kill civilians.

War is individuals vs individuals, not "category vs category".

War is the result of trying to make laws and divisions that of course fail to cater to all likely circumstances and events.
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This was the equivalent of assassinating Reinhard heydrich in 1942. It was justified... but was it worth it?
Why are you assuming I meant "individuals killing individuals"?

I only used the word "war" since I was suggesting people need an alternative, instead of losing their tempers.

Perhaps because "war" always includes killing.

What else can we do, do you think, instead of "war" when it's not "Iran" or "USA" or Country vs Country?

Many here, and Heydrich seem to assume we need a "final solution" by resorting to war, or killing of some sort.
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Last edited by Orphia Nay; 5th January 2020 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 5th January 2020, 11:38 PM   #596
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

My position is that military action should adhere to the principles of military necessity, distinction, and proportionality.
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

These Media Posts will serve as notification to the United States Congress that should Iran strike any U.S. person or target, the United States will quickly & fully strike back, & perhaps in a disproportionate manner. Such legal notice is not required, but is given nevertheless!
Uh-oh! Ditching proportionality now?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 5th January 2020, 11:44 PM   #597
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Than what? My statement had nothing to do with complexity. Your description of war was just nonsense.



What connection does that have to my post?
I was agreeing with you that war is complex, however my statement, had you not recoiled as per usual to me, but rather thought it through, you might have seen that I agreed.
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Old 5th January 2020, 11:47 PM   #598
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I don't think many in here are participating in the rather different atmosphere lately in Community, where opposing factions have found common ground in our support for Foolmewunz.

This seems relevant.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Cheers.
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Old 6th January 2020, 12:04 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I was agreeing with you that war is complex
Complexity isn’t the point of dispute between us, so your response is as nonsensical as your original description.
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Old 6th January 2020, 12:11 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Go right ahead. But while you're satisfying your needs, others may find themselves in situations where accurate communication is vital. Those unfortunate folk may not have time to debate semantics when dealing with the wretched circumstances they find themselves in.
Oh the delicious irony of your reframing away my comments as merely debating semantics. Bravo.
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