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Tags celebrity incidents , Mick Jagger , sexual assault incidents , sexual assault issues

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Old 2nd February 2020, 10:29 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
My position on this case is "no harm, no foul"
Okay, so you do exonerate him, which is fine. That doesn't mean everyone else has to give him a pass as you suggested earlier.

I think what used to be seen as the height of urbanity in the 1970s tends to be considered pretty sleazy by today's standards. Is he as bad as Jimmy Saville, or Gary Glitter, or others in the old Operation Yewtree database? Probably not, but if you have any teenaged daughters, it's probably best to keep them away.
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Old 2nd February 2020, 10:40 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Okay, so you do exonerate him, which is fine. That doesn't mean everyone else has to give him a pass as you suggested earlier.
No, I'm not letting you away with that. I said I neither exonerate nor condemn him. Why do you find it necessary to lie about what others have posted when you don't get the answer you wanted.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think what used to be seen as the height of urbanity in the 1970s tends to be considered pretty sleazy by today's standards.
Well there is your mistake - judging normal (or perhaps more "not unusual") 1970s behaviour by 2020 standards.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Is he as bad as Jimmy Saville, or Gary Glitter, or others in the old Operation Yewtree database? Probably not
Probably not? Really? I'd say definitely not.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
but if you have any teenaged daughters, it's probably best to keep them away.
My 17 year old daughter dated a 30 year old guy. At 22, she married him and they have two boys. They are still together, and their 20th wedding anniversary is coming up mid year, so yeah I should have kept them apart

PS:I suspect she was dating him when she was 16... but I have never challenged her on it, and nor would I. If she wants to tell me, she will.
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Old 2nd February 2020, 10:52 PM   #43
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I hear the clip clap of your feet on the stairs

Yeah, guilty.

Too late to do anything though, too bad.
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Old 2nd February 2020, 10:55 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
i think it's reasonable to say that in general, 15 is normally not ready.
Doesn't apply to NZ. 15 here is ready to have her second kid.
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Old 2nd February 2020, 11:36 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
My 17 year old daughter dated a 30 year old guy. At 22, she married him and they have two boys. They are still together, and their 20th wedding anniversary is coming up mid year, so yeah I should have kept them apart

PS:I suspect she was dating him when she was 16... but I have never challenged her on it, and nor would I. If she wants to tell me, she will.
My cousin's daughter started dating a 33 year-old garage band singer at 16 or so I believe. After she just arrived in the states.

They married a year later and though her mom did not approve at first, it was hardly because she thought it was some one-sided predatory deal. She just felt her daughter personally wasn't ready to raise a family.

I feel many Westerners, maybe Americans in particular, are hypersensitive about this. They think the older person is a predator with even a 6-8 year gap, but most young adults have a broad range of attraction and the older teen years fall in that range.
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Old 2nd February 2020, 11:47 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
i think it's reasonable to say that in general, 15 is normally not ready.

What I'm seeing is a young woman who appeared to be ready, unlike most of her peers. Should she be treated as an outlier, or made to conform to other peoples arbitrary AOCs?
Yes to the highlighted.

The first issue is that 15 is not considered too young in many countries and yet considered way too young in others. Ages of consent vary from 12 to 20, some with conditions, some without. Who is to say that our laws placing it at 16, or 17 or 18 is more "right" that theirs?

The second issue is that different children mature at different rates. I am pretty certain that both of my daughters were sexually active when they were 14, yet I knew of some of their friends (and daughters of friends) who were 16 - 17 at the time and in no way mature enough.

This really is not a "one age fits all" issue.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 01:26 AM   #47
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I'm surprised nobody has posted this one yet:

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Old 3rd February 2020, 04:31 AM   #48
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Good thing her uncle Floyd didn't know about this back then. He would have played a very long and hard drum solo on Jagger's head.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 04:36 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
i think it's reasonable to say that in general, 15 is normally not ready.

What I'm seeing is a young woman who appeared to be ready, unlike most of her peers. Should she be treated as an outlier, or made to conform to other peoples arbitrary AOCs?
He's the one who acted sleazily, not her. Just because it was the same event doesn't mean both parties get condemned or exonerated equally. It's quite valid to hold that she did nothing wrong (although I wouldn't say she did nothing foolish) but he did.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 05:01 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I don't think what the accuser thinks matters here. It is reasonable to say that 15 is not mature enough for sex, and anybody who has sex with someone that young is a danger to society.
It's just as reasonable to say that 15 is a more than enough mature age for sex and that treating consensual sex with a 15 year old as a crime is unreasonable.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 05:09 AM   #51
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I always struggle with this subject. I started to have sex when I was 4 years under the age of consent. Nearly all the people I had sex with could have been prosecuted and jailed for a long time. I categorically state that all the sex I had under the age of consent was consensual so it would be rank hypocrisy if I condem the older partner in this instance as from her account she knew what she was doing and could consent to it.


If the allegation is true what he did was wrong, and yes illegal. Can I condem him from the scant knowledge we have, no. However I would have thought being the famous person he was he would have been much more careful. But from all accounts he is a selfish git so probably never gave a thought to if he could have potentially harmed her in some way.




(This type of issue is why I am very much against using words like child and paedophile when discussing people around the legal age of consent. A paedophile is not interested in a 15 year and 360 day old person.)
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Old 3rd February 2020, 05:16 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I don't think what the accuser thinks matters here. It is reasonable to say that 15 is not mature enough for sex, and anybody who has sex with someone that young is a danger to society.
Seriously, why?

I am sure some people at the age of 15 are quire capable of making a sound judgement regarding having sex, I am also sure there are a lot that aren't. But that is still true if we take the age to 16 or 17 or 18 or even 38.

As a society it will always be a balance between protection and freedom, in regards to sex that has varied tremendously across different times and cultures.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 06:02 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think what used to be seen as the height of urbanity in the 1970s tends to be considered pretty sleazy by today's standards. Is he as bad as Jimmy Saville, or Gary Glitter, or others in the old Operation Yewtree database? Probably not, but if you have any teenaged daughters, it's probably best to keep them away.
Probably not? It's actually pretty ******* insane to compare someone who molested and sexually abused people with someone who had consensual if illicit sex with an underage individual.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 06:18 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's just as reasonable to say that 15 is a more than enough mature age for sex and that treating consensual sex with a 15 year old as a crime is unreasonable.
And it's even more reasonable to say than when a 15 year old has consensual sex with a 33 year old the 15 year old has done nothing wrong but the 33 year old has. There is no reason that they must both be equally innocent or equally guilty of wrongdoing.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 06:52 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I always hated the Stones so they should lock 'em up.
Who breaks a butterfly on a wheel?
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Old 3rd February 2020, 06:52 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And it's even more reasonable to say than when a 15 year old has consensual sex with a 33 year old the 15 year old has done nothing wrong but the 33 year old has. There is no reason that they must both be equally innocent or equally guilty of wrongdoing.
Not if it's morally wrong to aid and abet someone in wrongdoing.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 06:57 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Not if it's morally wrong to aid and abet someone in wrongdoing.
I don't think that applies here. We don't hold the robbery victim partially culpable for being there with something worth stealing when they get robbed, even though the crime would have been impossible without that participation.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 06:59 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
...
Even the USA does not have a fixed AoC that applies across the board. It ranges from 16 to 18 depending on the state.
In the USA, there is no fixed minimum age of consent, provided you're married, and there's no lower age on that in some states.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:01 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't think that applies here. We don't hold the robbery victim partially culpable for being there with something worth stealing when they get robbed, even though the crime would have been impossible without that participation.
Do you regard a robbery as consensual?
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:07 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Jagger isn't Epstein, let alone true child rapists like Peter Scully (not for the queasy).
that's an understatement.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:08 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Do you regard a robbery as consensual?
Sigh. Yet another example of analogy difficulty. No. But one question here is whether someone below the age of consent can consent to sex. Legally they cannot. So from the legal perspective the relationship was not consensual. From a moral perspective argument has been made both ways.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:11 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Do you regard a robbery as consensual?
If I convince a 15 year old girl to "consensually" (that needs to be a word) give me her college fund so I can buy a Corvette... well yeah maybe depending on context, circumstances, and a billion other factors. We get immediately into the weeds of semantics (i.e. did I rob her or swindle her or whatever) the base concept is there and valid.

Again we have concepts like "A person can't give their actual informed consent in a meaningful sense, even if they technically give consent on a surface level, in some cases because of age, impairment, and so forth" for a legit reason.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:12 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
In the USA, there is no fixed minimum age of consent, provided you're married, and there's no lower age on that in some states.
It's interesting to note that more modern laws treat marriage as something that requires greater maturity (and thus older minimum age) than mere sex, which makes sense in that marriage is notionally supposed to be legally recognized relationship with specific obligations, rights and responsibilities to the couple in question over an indefinite (or life long) period.

By contrast sex and intimate relationships do not have to be of any long-term consequence nor are there any formal obligations to each-other, so it require less maturity. Taking into account the long-term consequences of ones actions is where youth tend to struggle.

Moreover, whereas in the past parental permission could make a otherwise illicit sexual relationship with someone who was underage legal if they married, this is now viewed as putting the underage individual in a position where they are likely to be pressured into marriage against their will simply because their parents want to avoid controversy.

The stigma of unwed mothers was huge, so even if they were raped they would still be liable to get married.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:15 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
True child rapists like Peter Scully (not for the queasy).
Yeah that's one of the few people on the planet who are so vile I wish there was a Hell for him to go to.

Even with the worst of the worst of humanity I try, I said try I'm human and slip up from time to time, to not let myself go down into dehumanizing language.

But with him? Dude's a goddamn monster.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:20 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Doesn't apply to NZ. 15 here is ready to have her second kid.
I should point out that, had Jagger been unmarried, she could have married him in NY (parental and in some cases judicial consent required). It was only 2017 when NY finally voted to raise the minimum marriage age from 14 to 17 and the law just went in to affect only a year ago.

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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:24 AM   #66
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Yeah everyone we know that in "X jurisdiction 15 years is old enough if you do Y..."

Everyone knows that that scene in that Transformer movie where the guy whips out his personal laminated copy of his state's "Romeo and Juliet Laws" (that he apparently keeps on his person all the time for just this kind of situation) to prove it's "okay" when Mark Walberg's character demands to know why he's sleeping with his daughter is supposed to be creepy right?
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:36 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't think that applies here. We don't hold the robbery victim partially culpable for being there with something worth stealing when they get robbed, even though the crime would have been impossible without that participation.
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Sigh. Yet another example of analogy difficulty. No. But one question here is whether someone below the age of consent can consent to sex. Legally they cannot. So from the legal perspective the relationship was not consensual. From a moral perspective argument has been made both ways.
You described it as 'consensual sex', clearly you couldn't have been using the legal definition, so you presumably meant it in a moral sense. If you're willing to use the phrase in this context then presumably your moral perspective includes the possibility that a 15 year can engage in consensual sex.
The capacity to engage in consexual sex involves, in my opinion, an ability to appreciate and assess the possible positive and negative consequences of that action.
My conclusion is that if my partner is doing something wrong by having sex with me and I knowingly and willingly continue in the act, then I'm aiding them in wrongdoing and am at least partially culpable for doing so. If I'm not capable of anticipating the consequences then the sex wouldn't be consensual in a moral sense (consent must be informed).
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:40 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Who breaks a butterfly on a wheel?
I'm left wondering how many will get this reference? Nice one!
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:43 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Jagger was from the UK, what was the AOC there at the time?
She was born in 1989.

These stupid headlines do not improve our forum.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:43 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The 1970's was not a "different era" in any way that matters; underage sex was still illegal then, and people still went to jail for it when they were caught, unless of course they were rich and/or famous.
You must be too young or were too inebbriated at the time to remember the 70s very well. There were literally multiple pop/rock sounds about dudes screwing underage girls, occasionally with lyrics too the effect of, don't get too attached because you mean nothing to me.

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
If she was groomed it was by the "Free Love" society if the time.

40 years later, today's society would sure be different if it wasn't for herpes and HIV.
Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
But there was a very different atmosphere then, prior to me2 movement. It was also still an era when free love and sex in general were discussed with a more relaxed attitude then it had been in years prior.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh, rubbish. When did he have time to groom her... they had just met. As casebro said, she would certainly have been influenced by the times at that age. I don't really think you can call that "grooming".

If you weren't a teenager in the late 1960s and the 1970s, then you really have no actual idea - Woodstock, flower power, hippies, free love, sexual inhibitions zero.... it was all happenin' man, and yeah, underage girls (and boys for that matter) were gettin' their rocks off, without being "groomed" because that's what they wanted. I'll bet you that among the 400,000 people at Woodstock, there was a truckload of under-age kids "getting it on"!
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Indeed!

Newsflash: "1970's Rock Star Sleeps with Under Age Girl" pictures at 6!!

(well, maybe not the pictures)
That is was common doesn't make it right of course, just that it was a different era when pedophilia and hebephilia weren't taken that seriously.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 07:45 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
You described it as 'consensual sex', clearly you couldn't have been using the legal definition, so you presumably meant it in a moral sense. If you're willing to use the phrase in this context then presumably your moral perspective includes the possibility that a 15 year can engage in consensual sex.
The capacity to engage in consexual sex involves, in my opinion, an ability to appreciate and assess the possible positive and negative consequences of that action.
My conclusion is that if my partner is doing something wrong by having sex with me and I knowingly and willingly continue in the act, then I'm aiding them in wrongdoing and am at least partially culpable for doing so. If I'm not capable of anticipating the consequences then the sex wouldn't be consensual in a moral sense (consent must be informed).
And I disagree. I think in this situation she did nothing wrong (although she did do something foolish), he did do something wrong by having sex with someone too young, and that she shares no portion of the blame for his wrong as "abetting" it. I think attempting to place blame on her for "aiding" his wrongdoing is to make an absurdity of morality.

Her consent to the act, whether it was legal or moral or neither, bears no weight in evaluating his participation in the act, which was wrong.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:25 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah everyone we know that in "X jurisdiction 15 years is old enough if you do Y..."

Everyone knows that that scene in that Transformer movie where the guy whips out his personal laminated copy of his state's "Romeo and Juliet Laws" (that he apparently keeps on his person all the time for just this kind of situation) to prove it's "okay" when Mark Walberg's character demands to know why he's sleeping with his daughter is supposed to be creepy right?
I thought it was an example of how overbearing and overprotective American parents are in denying their children their freedom to establish intimate relationships, what with they thinking it's appropriate to threathen their lovers with shotguns if they dare enter their property.

Like in that Miami cop show i watched a couple of days ago, where the black guy was a real hard ass on his daughter for "staying out" and how she was grounded for the rest of her life. Apparently this is the kind of "good parenting" that's supposed to make manly American men chuckle in approval. Imprisoning your 16 year old daughter because she dares to date someone is good parenting in America and other backwards hell holes where children are considered the property of their parents...

Note that we Swede's actually have educate immigrants from more traditional countries that they are not allowed to do this and that their children are allowed the personal autonomy and freedom which the law permits.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:29 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And I disagree. I think in this situation she did nothing wrong (although she did do something foolish), he did do something wrong by having sex with someone too young, and that she shares no portion of the blame for his wrong as "abetting" it. I think attempting to place blame on her for "aiding" his wrongdoing is to make an absurdity of morality.

Her consent to the act, whether it was legal or moral or neither, bears no weight in evaluating his participation in the act, which was wrong.
Ah well, if you find my morality absurd then I doubt we'll find any grounds for achieving a common understanding.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:33 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Ah well, if you find my morality absurd then I doubt we'll find any grounds for achieving a common understanding.
Indeed. But the blame is on you even if I'm deliberately misunderstanding you, because you are abetting my deliberate misunderstanding.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:35 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
She was groomed, that's the problem. She's so far gone that she doesn't even recognize she was a victim of child rape. This is exactly why it doesn't matter if it was consensual or not.
Absolute nonsense.

She did it to advance her career.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:37 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Indeed. But the blame is on you even if I'm deliberately misunderstanding you, because you are abetting my deliberate misunderstanding.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:41 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I'm tired of claims of "child rape" due to this type of reporting.

This was inappropriate but she seems to relish recalling the fling, not like she was traumatized like a prepubescent child who suffered rape would be.

Often the public is going to be far more shocked than the participants. It's a nothingburger as far as I'm concerned.

Jagger isn't Epstein, let alone true child rapists like Peter Scully (not for the queasy).
You don't know that. Many of these groupies were very young. A large number of 'pop idols' will have encouraged them.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:44 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Note that we Swede's actually have educate immigrants from more traditional countries that they are not allowed to do this and that their children are allowed the personal autonomy and freedom which the law permits.
I gotta say man "You see we're enlightened enough to not get angry when someone tries to bang our 15 year old daughter" is certainly the most eyebrow raising version of "You see here in the glorious utopia of Sweden we're better then American because..." I've yet seen.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:49 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I don't think what the accuser thinks matters here. It is reasonable to say that 15 is not mature enough for sex, and anybody who has sex with someone that young is a danger to society.
Legal age of consent has nothing to do with 'readiness for sex'.

It is merely a way of drawing the line of when a child/young adult stops being the legal property of the parent/s.
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Old 3rd February 2020, 08:53 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
She was born in 1989.

These stupid headlines do not improve our forum.
"Age Of Consent", in case that wasn't a joke.
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