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Tags India incidents , India issues , rape incidents , rape issues

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Old 3rd January 2013, 09:20 PM   #1
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Indian gang-rape victim dies, perpetrators charged with murder

I don't know if anyone has followed this, but on December 16th an Indian university student boarded a bus with a male friend after having seen a movie. Over the next several hours the two of them were assaulted by five men and the girl brutally raped and sexually violated with a steel bar before the two of them were dumped naked on the side of the road.

The girl was moved to Singapore for medical treatment, but has since died. The crime has sparked a wave out outrage in India and renewed looks at how women are treated in Indian society.

Today it was announced that the five suspects have been charged.

Quote:
Prosecutor Rajiv Mohan filed a case of rape, tampering with evidence, kidnapping, murder and other charges against the men. The charge sheet was not released and he asked for a closed trial. A hearing was set for Saturday.

The men charged were Ram Singh, the bus driver; his brother Mukesh Singh, who cleans buses for the same company; Pavan Gupta, a fruit vendor; Akshay Singh, a bus washer; and Vinay Sharma, a fitness trainer. They did not appear in court. Authorities have said they would push for the death penalty for the men.

A sixth suspect, listed as a 17-year-old, was expected to be tried in a juvenile court, where the maximum sentence would be three years in a reform facility. Police also detained the owner of the bus on accusations he used false documents to obtain permits to run the private bus service.
One of the common calls heard throughout this case is that the punishment for rape should be increased to death. Currently the maximum sentence is life imprisonment.

I can't help but feel this is looking in the wrong direction. Obviously most western countries don't have a death penalty at all, and typically rape receives a significantly less serious sentence than murder.

Yet most western countries don't have such a widespread rape problem.

To me, it seems plainly obvious that the problem is cultural. In a country where people see nothing wrong with rape, it won't matter what punishment is enforced, rapes will continue.

Fortunately, it looks like things are changing in India. There has been a concerted effort in recent years to tackle honour killing, particularly in the north of India, with the judiciary beginning to show some real teeth in dealing with these crimes. The level of public outrage in response to this recent gang-rape offers some hope that social attitudes towards women in India are truly changing, and that's a comforting thought.
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Old 3rd January 2013, 09:32 PM   #2
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I'm saddened to here that one of the victims has died. I knew she was in rough shape.

If CNN was reporting correctly, lawyers have been boycotting the defense of the accused. That is to say, no one will defend them even if called to by law.
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Old 3rd January 2013, 09:36 PM   #3
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It's interesting that the death sentence is being called for. This is very rare in India, but given the uproar, inevitable.
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Old 3rd January 2013, 09:44 PM   #4
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An interesting perspective of an Indian journalist working in Australa:

Quote:
Bollywood's stereotypes play leading role in India's problems
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/soc...103-2c749.html


Quote:
People are looking for answers and wondering why a nation that boasts of worshipping female energy in the form of myriad goddesses can mistreat its women. The all-pervading Bollywood has a role to play. In the 1980s film Shriman Shrimati (Mr and Mrs), an elderly couple solves marital problems. The couple saves a modern woman, who has ambitions to be a model, from being raped.
The woman realises just in time that unless she ''toes the line'', she will fall prey to dirty men who only want her body.
Repentant, she returns to her dorky (and clearly mismatched) husband and breastfeeds her child (a sign of her redemption and acceptance of her role as a mother/traditional woman).
The moral of the story: women who cross the line are susceptible to rape.
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Old 3rd January 2013, 10:07 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post

I can't help but feel this is looking in the wrong direction. Obviously most western countries don't have a death penalty at all, and typically rape receives a significantly less serious sentence than murder.

Yet most western countries don't have such a widespread rape problem.
I am unfamiliar with Indian culture, would castration be seen as a stronger deterrent than execution? Stepping outside the circle known as civilized behavior for a moment - would publicly raping the rapists be a deterrent?
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Old 3rd January 2013, 10:08 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
An interesting perspective of an Indian journalist working in Australa:



http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/soc...103-2c749.html
I doubt Bollywood has a causal role in all this. Rape and misogyny were around long before Bollywood existed. Some of the films may reflect the beliefs of its film-makers which may indeed be in line with the general beliefs of average men in India but are hardly likely to be the reason such beliefs and actions occur.
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Old 4th January 2013, 02:50 AM   #7
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Yeah, I'd be all or the Death Penalty when it comes to aggravated rape (any prosecutor worth their salary would be able to secure an aggravated rape conviction on an open and shut case like this).
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Old 4th January 2013, 03:04 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Yeah, I'd be all or the Death Penalty when it comes to aggravated rape (any prosecutor worth their salary would be able to secure an aggravated rape conviction on an open and shut case like this).
Ermm...aggravated rape seems to be a bit of an understatement. We're now talking about rape and murder are we not? And conspiracy to rape and murder is usually considered even more serious than that.

So even if the death penalty was only applied in the most extreme cases, as Indian law demands, then this may well be one of those cases.
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Old 4th January 2013, 03:05 AM   #9
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Given what third-world jails are generally like, the death penalty might be an easy way out.
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Old 4th January 2013, 04:30 AM   #10
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There was so much crap following this horrible tragedy. First there was the usual blaming the victim..."she shouldn't have been where she was when she was and therefore asking for it," "she was dressed inappropriately and therefore asking for it"...and so on.
Then there was the oneupmanship by politicians and various social organisations (interesting predominantly male) seeking castration/death as the penalty for the offenders. This seemed to more to create an impression of "Hey...look at us caring."

The issue is not about whether rapists are punished enough or not, it is about why a woman is unable to get into a bus or walk through a crowded street without being harassed, mauled or molested in some way or the other. And if she is and takes the complaint to the police, she is forced to defend herself with questions like "What were you doing there in the first place," "Why were you wearing those kind of clothes,"...and ultimatley the statement "You asked for it" (This last one was actually the closing statement by a judge is a molestation case.)

Blaming film and remarkably chinese food (by the woman Chief Minister of one state, equivalent of a Governor in America). Yes, the issue is social and stems from a highly patriarchal society where machismo is predominant. After all, how dare a woman reject their advances.

Many years ago, an anthropology student I know did a small class project on attitudes to harassment of women in the aftermath of a spate instances by teenage boys. A questionnaire sent to hundred middle class women (mainly home makers with children) brought out some weird results. Mothers with sons tended to state that while the boys should be punished, it shouldn't be too severe as to "destroy their future." Mothers with daughters tended to go with "The girl shouldn't have been there in the first place".
The survey was pretty amateurish and wasn't really very scientifically done, bu the the answers by many respondents were really troublesome.

As of now, the entire debate has become filled with fluff and empty rhetoric while the real issues are being sidelined. I just hope saner minds prevail and it is brought back on track. The question is not about what we need to do with the rapists, but how do we ensure that this does not happen again.
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Old 4th January 2013, 04:39 AM   #11
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Incidentally, there is a film by Anand Patwardhan, a documentary film maker that speaks of the socio-religious aspects of patriarchy in modern India. It is called "Father, Son and Holy War."
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Old 4th January 2013, 05:18 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
There was so much crap following this horrible tragedy. First there was the usual blaming the victim..."she shouldn't have been where she was when she was and therefore asking for it," "she was dressed inappropriately and therefore asking for it"...and so on.
Then there was the oneupmanship by politicians and various social organisations (interesting predominantly male) seeking castration/death as the penalty for the offenders. This seemed to more to create an impression of "Hey...look at us caring."

The issue is not about whether rapists are punished enough or not, it is about why a woman is unable to get into a bus or walk through a crowded street without being harassed, mauled or molested in some way or the other. And if she is and takes the complaint to the police, she is forced to defend herself with questions like "What were you doing there in the first place," "Why were you wearing those kind of clothes,"...and ultimatley the statement "You asked for it" (This last one was actually the closing statement by a judge is a molestation case.)

Blaming film and remarkably chinese food (by the woman Chief Minister of one state, equivalent of a Governor in America). Yes, the issue is social and stems from a highly patriarchal society where machismo is predominant. After all, how dare a woman reject their advances.

Many years ago, an anthropology student I know did a small class project on attitudes to harassment of women in the aftermath of a spate instances by teenage boys. A questionnaire sent to hundred middle class women (mainly home makers with children) brought out some weird results. Mothers with sons tended to state that while the boys should be punished, it shouldn't be too severe as to "destroy their future." Mothers with daughters tended to go with "The girl shouldn't have been there in the first place".
The survey was pretty amateurish and wasn't really very scientifically done, bu the the answers by many respondents were really troublesome.

As of now, the entire debate has become filled with fluff and empty rhetoric while the real issues are being sidelined. I just hope saner minds prevail and it is brought back on track. The question is not about what we need to do with the rapists, but how do we ensure that this does not happen again.
Good post!
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Old 4th January 2013, 05:27 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Good post!
Thank you.
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Old 4th January 2013, 08:26 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
There was so much crap following this horrible tragedy. First there was the usual blaming the victim..."she shouldn't have been where she was when she was and therefore asking for it," "she was dressed inappropriately and therefore asking for it"...and so on.
Then there was the oneupmanship by politicians and various social organisations (interesting predominantly male) seeking castration/death as the penalty for the offenders. This seemed to more to create an impression of "Hey...look at us caring."

The issue is not about whether rapists are punished enough or not, it is about why a woman is unable to get into a bus or walk through a crowded street without being harassed, mauled or molested in some way or the other. And if she is and takes the complaint to the police, she is forced to defend herself with questions like "What were you doing there in the first place," "Why were you wearing those kind of clothes,"...and ultimatley the statement "You asked for it" (This last one was actually the closing statement by a judge is a molestation case.)

Blaming film and remarkably chinese food (by the woman Chief Minister of one state, equivalent of a Governor in America). Yes, the issue is social and stems from a highly patriarchal society where machismo is predominant. After all, how dare a woman reject their advances.

Many years ago, an anthropology student I know did a small class project on attitudes to harassment of women in the aftermath of a spate instances by teenage boys. A questionnaire sent to hundred middle class women (mainly home makers with children) brought out some weird results. Mothers with sons tended to state that while the boys should be punished, it shouldn't be too severe as to "destroy their future." Mothers with daughters tended to go with "The girl shouldn't have been there in the first place".
The survey was pretty amateurish and wasn't really very scientifically done, bu the the answers by many respondents were really troublesome.

As of now, the entire debate has become filled with fluff and empty rhetoric while the real issues are being sidelined. I just hope saner minds prevail and it is brought back on track. The question is not about what we need to do with the rapists, but how do we ensure that this does not happen again.
While I agree with most of what you said, with regards to the highlighted part, wanting these monsters dead or ball-less is a pretty natural reaction to this case. It was my gut reaction. That said, yeah, it's possible that some are using it for political advantage.
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Old 4th January 2013, 08:39 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
An interesting perspective of an Indian journalist working in Australa:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/soc...103-2c749.html

Quote:
Repentant, she returns to her dorky (and clearly mismatched) husband and breastfeeds her child (a sign of her redemption and acceptance of her role as a mother/traditional woman).
The moral of the story: women who cross the line are susceptible to rape.
It's also a reinforcement of traditional, conservative society and arranged marriage.
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Old 4th January 2013, 11:22 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I doubt Bollywood has a causal role in all this. Rape and misogyny were around long before Bollywood existed. Some of the films may reflect the beliefs of its film-makers which may indeed be in line with the general beliefs of average men in India but are hardly likely to be the reason such beliefs and actions occur.
I'm willing to bet the net effect of movies and TV around the world is to spread peaceful attitudes through shows. There may be violence, but lots more peaceful behavior demonstrated.
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Old 8th January 2013, 07:24 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Obviously most western countries don't have a death penalty at all, and typically rape receives a significantly less serious sentence than murder.

Yet most western countries don't have such a widespread rape problem.
Most western countries will make better attempts to prosecute rapists. Hopefully if they start to enforce against such acts, the instances of it happening will drop.

It needs a societal change:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20863860
Quote:
Analysts say deep-rooted changes in social attitudes are needed to make India's women more accepted and secure. There is deeply entrenched patriarchy and widespread misogyny in vast swathes of the country, especially in the north. And the state has been found wanting in its protection of women.
Infuriating news on this case -
http://news.sky.com/story/1035005/in...ead-not-guilty
Quote:
Further protests erupted after a popular Indian spiritual guru said the 23-year-old victim should share blame with her attackers for the December 16 attack.
Asharam, known to his followers as "Bapu", or father, told his devotees the victim was also at fault because she should have begged for mercy.
"This tragedy would not have happened if she had chanted God's name and fallen at the feet of the attackers. The error was not committed by just one side," he said in video footage which has been widely circulated on the internet.
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Old 9th January 2013, 12:49 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
Further protests erupted after a popular Indian spiritual guru said the 23-year-old victim should share blame with her attackers for the December 16 attack.
Asharam, known to his followers as "Bapu", or father, told his devotees the victim was also at fault because she should have begged for mercy.
"This tragedy would not have happened if she had chanted God's name and fallen at the feet of the attackers. The error was not committed by just one side," he said in video footage which has been widely circulated on the internet.
Yes, I heard of this the day before and this is only one of the many "opinions" by the society scum (these float to the top) comprising politicians and godmen have come up with.

He is also supposed to have said that she could have avoided getting raped if she had only reeached out for the attackers hand and called him...wait for it..."Brother".

I don't know whether to laugh or cry or find this guy out and punch is lights out.
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Old 10th January 2013, 12:55 PM   #19
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"Respected" women don't get raped

Defence lawyer for the rapists gets classy:

http://www.theage.com.au/world/respe...110-2cj11.html

Quote:
DELHI: The lawyer representing three of the men charged with the gang rape and murder of a medical student on a moving bus in Delhi has blamed the victims for the assault, saying he has never heard of a ''respected lady'' being raped in India.
Manohar Lal Sharma said his clients would plead not guilty to all charges at their next court appearance. Mr Sharma said the male companion of the murdered 23-year-old was ''wholly responsible'' for the incident as the unmarried couple should not have been on the streets at night.
This case is a major challenge to India. If this attitude prevails, it would confirm that India is far from the serious, respected nation it aspires to be.
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Old 10th January 2013, 01:01 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Defence lawyer for the rapists gets classy:

http://www.theage.com.au/world/respe...110-2cj11.html



This case is a major challenge to India. If this attitude prevails, it would confirm that India is far from the serious, respected nation it aspires to be.
Sharma might be taken aback to realize that his quote could be attributed to the average Talib in the NWFP. Then again, maybe he wouldn't. Either way, **** him. Disbar the bastard.
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Old 14th September 2013, 07:54 PM   #21
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Bumping this thread. Maybe it's being discussed in another thread. I did a quick search and didn't find one.

India gang rape culprits sentenced to death

Originally Posted by CBC News
An Indian court Friday sentenced to death four men for the December gang rape and murder of a young New Delhi woman, ordering them to the gallows for a brutal attack on a bus that left the woman with such severe internal injuries that she died two weeks later.

...

India's Supreme Court has ruled that the death penalty should be used only in "the rarest of rare cases," though what defines those cases remains highly debated. Only two people have been executed in India since 2004.
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