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Tags anti-Muslim issues , anti-Muslim policies , India issues , India politics

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Old 18th December 2019, 09:46 AM   #1
rockysmith76
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India's New Citizenship Law

Since it seems determined to isolate Muslims how long before India sees it's next act of Terrorism as frustration mounts?
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Old 18th December 2019, 10:34 AM   #2
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How long before you actually get around to posting a citation?
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Old 18th December 2019, 10:57 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How long before you actually get around to posting a citation?
seems like People here get barked at for posting a link so....
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/18/india...ntl/index.html
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Old 18th December 2019, 12:06 PM   #4
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Yeah, making 2 million people stateless is bound to really throw cold water on any thoughts of political violence.

This seems like a move that will practically guarantee ethnic/religious conflict in the near future.
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Old 18th December 2019, 01:15 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
seems like People here get barked at for posting a link so....
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/18/india...ntl/index.html
No

1. You get barked at for posting a link and NOT explaining what you are posting about

2. You get barked at for making a claim and not citing a reference, such as a link.

If you posted the link you posted in your second post, in your OP, theprestige would not have made the comment he did.
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Old 18th December 2019, 01:39 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No

1. You get barked at for posting a link and NOT explaining what you are posting about

2. You get barked at for making a claim and not citing a reference, such as a link.

If you posted the link you posted in your second post, in your OP, theprestige would not have made the comment he did.
I would have barked for not actually righting a description worth a damn though.

A link and a brief explanation for why the link might be interesting would be nice.
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Old 18th December 2019, 02:05 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I would have barked for not actually righting a description worth a damn though.
I considered doing exactly that.
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Old 21st December 2019, 03:08 AM   #8
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The Citizenship Amendment Act combined with the National Registry of Citizenship is designed by the current government to exclude and ultimately target Indian Muslims (initially). The Home Minister has stated time and again that the NRC will ensure that all people without documents will be considered non citizens and expelled from the country (don't ask me about what mechanism they intend to use for this). The CAA on the other hand states that non-Muslims from neighboring countries can apply for citizenship and they will be provided the necessary documents. However, Indian Muslims who have lived for generations have to prove their citizenship to the government. Considering that a vast section of the Indian populace does not have valid papers because of their economic status, this means that many people will be excluded. Particularly the underprivileged, tribal and dalit populations in the border regions.
The Farce of the NRC can be illustrated by two major cases...A military hero of the Kargil war, who is Muslim isn't in the NRC list...the family of the former President of India is no in the NRC list...there are more prominent examples.
The entire exercise is essentially to usher in a Hindu regime in India, something that the current government is not reluctant to admit.
Re: the violence...it has been shown that most of it has been instigated by the police beginning with the charging of a paramilitary team into a Television studio in Assam broadcasting a discussion on the CAA, and later the barging of the Delhi Police into a University campus where a meeting against the CAA bill was being held.
Professors, activists, human rights lawyers, are being detained/arrested in various parts of the country. Here is an image of the Police manhandling Prof. Ramachandra Guha internationally renown historian and social scientist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEFxhkMSZw0
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Old 21st December 2019, 03:18 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Since it seems determined to isolate Muslims how long before India sees it's next act of Terrorism as frustration mounts?
Interesting that you feel that Muslims and Terrorrism are interconnected. Past few decades have shown more terrorrist activity by the Hindu groups like the RSS (and their accolytes the BJP), Shiv Sena, Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the cults of various gurus and godmen currently being extolled by the current government. One of them has actually escaped a possible rape charge in India to establish a quasi Hindu Nation on an island off the coast of Ecuador:
https://www.news18.com/news/india/on...r-2410593.html
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Old 21st December 2019, 05:58 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Interesting that you feel that Muslims and Terrorrism are interconnected. Past few decades have shown more terrorrist activity by the Hindu groups like the RSS (and their accolytes the BJP), Shiv Sena, Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the cults of various gurus and godmen currently being extolled by the current government. One of them has actually escaped a possible rape charge in India to establish a quasi Hindu Nation on an island off the coast of Ecuador:
https://www.news18.com/news/india/on...r-2410593.html

I would suggest that your are reading way too much into rockysmith76's post. History has taught us that Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims in India have resorted to violent terrorist attacks in the past when they have perceived themselves under attack or isolated from power. In this case - it is the Muslims who are being wronged therefore it is only logical to suggest that terroristic violence might occur as the Muslim community fights back against this provocative legislation.
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Old 21st December 2019, 08:21 AM   #11
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So the state sanctioned terrorism is not concerning. "We have to watch out for them Muslims."
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Old 21st December 2019, 10:47 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
So the state sanctioned terrorism is not concerning. "We have to watch out for them Muslims."
When you have used some logic in your posts instead of this obvious baiting I will engage you in a discussion.
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Old 21st December 2019, 10:57 AM   #13
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Baiting? I am supposed to overlook the fact that he thinks the main problem with the situation here is not that the state is indulging in violent and even deadly repression of dissent, but that hypothetically the CAA might result in Islamic terrorism? The protest in India is not just from the Muslims...it plans all religions.
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Old 31st December 2019, 04:08 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Interesting that you feel that Muslims and Terrorrism are interconnected. Past few decades have shown more terrorrist activity by the Hindu groups like the RSS (and their accolytes the BJP), Shiv Sena, Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the cults of various gurus and godmen currently being extolled by the current government. One of them has actually escaped a possible rape charge in India to establish a quasi Hindu Nation on an island off the coast of Ecuador:
https://www.news18.com/news/india/on...r-2410593.html

I despise what the Indian Government is trying to do, but to deny the reality of terrorism by Islamic Extremists is silly and stupid.
Looks like we will have a number of different religious wackjobs trying to outdo each other in the murder department.
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Old 5th January 2020, 06:12 PM   #15
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Members of a right wing organisation entered and beat up anti-CAA protesters at the campus of the Jawaharlal Nehru University. The attack was carried out with the support of the police.
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Old 9th January 2020, 12:05 PM   #16
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It is surprising how fast that Hinduism's reputation as being a tolerant religion is going down the drain.
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Old 9th January 2020, 10:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It is surprising how fast that Hinduism's reputation as being a tolerant religion is going down the drain.
The "reputation" of Hinduism abroad as a benign passive religion was a very efffective PR exercise originally initiated by Vivekananda in his address at the Parliament of World Religions in 1893...at home it was a different story. Vivekanananda was himself infected with extreme casteism:

Read here for some examples:
https://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2017/01...e-works-caste/

The current religious intolerance stems from the the Hindu upper caste irritation that Christianity and Islam undermined their casteist dominance.
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Old 10th January 2020, 02:51 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yeah, making 2 million people stateless is bound to really throw cold water on any thoughts of political violence.
That's not what the law does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citize...ent)_Act,_2019

The law permits non-Muslim immigrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan who moved to India before 2014 to obtain citizenship. It does not permit Muslim immigrants from those countries to do so, nor does it strip anyone from citizenship. Anyone left stateless in the wake of the bill is stateless already.

The purpoted nature of the bill is to allow people who fled religious persecution settle in India. The assumption is there is no religious persecution against Muslims in Muslim countries. This is where the bill utterly fails, the religious persecution against fellow Muslims is often even worse than against non-Muslims in those countries. That's the reason the bill is wrong.

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Old 10th January 2020, 03:32 AM   #19
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Also, consider the fact that the CAA is also going to be deployed in conjunction with the NRC which has already resulted in a lot of people being disenfranchised in the state of Assam and some of them shifted to detention centres: These have so far included a veteran of the Kargil war, members of a family of the former president of India, judges, professors and even the former chief minister of the state.
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Old 10th January 2020, 05:57 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
That's not what the law does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citize...ent)_Act,_2019

... nor does it strip anyone from citizenship...
McHrozni
The NRC does this...and it is part of the exercise by the government.
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Old 10th January 2020, 06:25 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
The NRC does this...and it is part of the exercise by the government.
The NRC is just a register of citizens and that doesn't strip anyone from citizenship either. The exercise is meant to purge non-citizens from Indian registry of citizens, which really isn't controversial by itself.

The problem is that a significant number of people - some two million - live in India, were born in India, have no other country but India, but wouldn't be eligeble for Indian citizenship under these laws. These people already are stateless, India would simply not recognize their right to citizenship. India is of course technically allowed to do so, but it is unconscionable to reject citizenship to people who lived their entire lives in your country and have no other place to call home.

Note, I don't actually support the reform - it's unconscionable - but not for the reasons presented.

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Old 10th January 2020, 05:10 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
That's not what the law does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citize...ent)_Act,_2019

The law permits non-Muslim immigrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan who moved to India before 2014 to obtain citizenship. It does not permit Muslim immigrants from those countries to do so, nor does it strip anyone from citizenship. Anyone left stateless in the wake of the bill is stateless already.

The purpoted nature of the bill is to allow people who fled religious persecution settle in India. The assumption is there is no religious persecution against Muslims in Muslim countries. This is where the bill utterly fails, the religious persecution against fellow Muslims is often even worse than against non-Muslims in those countries. That's the reason the bill is wrong.

McHrozni
Not unusual in religions. Christians kept their worst hatred for other Christians, particularly in the Reformation era. The Inqusition did persecute Jews,but spent a lot more time and effort going after Protestents...which the Protesetents paid back with interest, of course.
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Old 10th January 2020, 05:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The NRC is just a register of citizens and that doesn't strip anyone from citizenship either. The exercise is meant to purge non-citizens from Indian registry of citizens, which really isn't controversial by itself.

The problem is that a significant number of people - some two million - live in India, were born in India, have no other country but India, but wouldn't be eligeble for Indian citizenship under these laws. These people already are stateless, India would simply not recognize their right to citizenship. India is of course technically allowed to do so, but it is unconscionable to reject citizenship to people who lived their entire lives in your country and have no other place to call home.

Note, I don't actually support the reform - it's unconscionable - but not for the reasons presented.

McHrozni
I think the main problem is that it shows the direction in which the current Indian government intends to go..and it's not a pretty place.
I find that they are comtemplating trying to restore the full blown Caste system mind boggling.
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Old 10th January 2020, 10:29 PM   #24
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True, however, the exercise of “updating the NRC” already underway in Assam showed huge gaps in data particularly among the tribals and Muslims. Many were sent to detention camps pending “investigation”. A disproportionate number of those who found their names missing were Muslims. The CAA states that while non-Hindus not on the list will be provided citizenship papers, the Muslims will not. While high profile cases have been brought to light, a large number of ordinary citizens will b affected.
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Old 13th January 2020, 02:55 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not unusual in religions. Christians kept their worst hatred for other Christians, particularly in the Reformation era. The Inqusition did persecute Jews,but spent a lot more time and effort going after Protestents...which the Protesetents paid back with interest, of course.
The Spanish Inquisition persecuted false converts, first and foremost - people who converted from Islam or Judaism into Christianity after the Alehambra decree, but were suspected of harboring old beliefs still.

Of course there was also persecution of Protestants who paid back with interest. It is indeed not unusual for religious persecution to target heretics (who follow your religion incorrectly) over heathens (who don't follow your religion).

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Old 13th January 2020, 03:00 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think the main problem is that it shows the direction in which the current Indian government intends to go..and it's not a pretty place.
I find that they are comtemplating trying to restore the full blown Caste system mind boggling.
Yes, definitely. We'll soon see how deep does the principle of "national soverignty" goes with ideologues who proclaim to hold it sacred.

http://tech.mit.edu/V120/N6/chomsky.6n.html
https://newsmeter.in/romila-thapar-n...tizenship-act/

About as far as convenient, as it turns out. Not that I'm surprised or anything.

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Old 13th January 2020, 06:20 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It is surprising how fast that Hinduism's reputation as being a tolerant religion is going down the drain.
Seriously when did it have such a reputation ?
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:43 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Seriously when did it have such a reputation ?
I think it's mostly among new-age type Americans.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:46 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Interesting that you feel that Muslims and Terrorrism are interconnected. Past few decades have shown more terrorrist activity by the Hindu groups like the RSS (and their accolytes the BJP), Shiv Sena, Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the cults of various gurus and godmen currently being extolled by the current government. One of them has actually escaped a possible rape charge in India to establish a quasi Hindu Nation on an island off the coast of Ecuador:
https://www.news18.com/news/india/on...r-2410593.html
more like that will be the outcome if the situation gets bad enough, if not by actual citizens, its an opportunity for agitation from outside potentially.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:47 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
So the state sanctioned terrorism is not concerning. "We have to watch out for them Muslims."
Thats what the Government there seems to want you to believe.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:48 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Baiting? I am supposed to overlook the fact that he thinks the main problem with the situation here is not that the state is indulging in violent and even deadly repression of dissent, but that hypothetically the CAA might result in Islamic terrorism? The protest in India is not just from the Muslims...it plans all religions.
Yet they're starting with Muslims, they must be seen as an easy scapegoat.
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Old 13th January 2020, 09:52 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not unusual in religions. Christians kept their worst hatred for other Christians, particularly in the Reformation era. The Inqusition did persecute Jews,but spent a lot more time and effort going after Protestents...which the Protesetents paid back with interest, of course.
The same can be said between Sunni and Shia islam.
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Old 13th January 2020, 03:26 PM   #33
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And the harassement of Muslims is going to spread to those in Kashmir;and that is going to provoke a response from Pakistan. And that is the scariest thing about this mess;both India and Pakistant have nukes and they already don't like each other very much......
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Old 13th January 2020, 04:26 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The same can be said between Sunni and Shia islam.
religions do seem to keep there worst hatred for heretics rather then infidels.
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Old 13th January 2020, 11:16 PM   #35
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
religions do seem to keep there worst hatred for heretics rather then infidels.
This is not really limited to religions either. The worst hatred is usually aimed at people close to you, civil wars tend to be more brutal than wars of one nation against another. There's something close and personal in fighting someone who is supposed to be like you but represents everything you're not.

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Old 14th January 2020, 12:18 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And the harassement of Muslims is going to spread to those in Kashmir;and that is going to provoke a response from Pakistan. And that is the scariest thing about this mess;both India and Pakistant have nukes and they already don't like each other very much......
Kashmir is already the petri dish for the current givernment's anti-Muslim policies
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Old 14th January 2020, 02:41 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Kashmir is already the petri dish for the current givernment's anti-Muslim policies

Like I said, very scary. No wonder an India Pakistan exchange is by far the most likely scenario for nukes being used.
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Old 27th January 2020, 01:45 AM   #38
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Chief invitee to the Republic Day celebrations in India, Bolsonaro says "Indians are undoubtedly changing…They are increasingly becoming human beings just like us.” In the midst of collective outrage, the right wing collective in India who sees Bolsonaro as an ally in their oppressive policis have defended the remark as referring to the indigenous people of Brazil (which, in their mind makes it alright) and not to the actual Indians.
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Old 25th February 2020, 03:16 AM   #39
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Even as Modi and Trump indulge in manufactured shows of strength, the BJP has decided to punish the Shaheen Bhag protestors and more importantly the people of Delhi for voting against them. Instigated by the BJP, right wing goons have begun to wreak havoc and indulge in violence in Delhi while the police look on and in some cases even aid and abet the violence. Since yesterday, at least 5 deaths in various parts of Delhi including one police constable.
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Old 25th February 2020, 06:47 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Even as Modi and Trump indulge in manufactured shows of strength, the BJP has decided to punish the Shaheen Bhag protestors and more importantly the people of Delhi for voting against them. Instigated by the BJP, right wing goons have begun to wreak havoc and indulge in violence in Delhi while the police look on and in some cases even aid and abet the violence. Since yesterday, at least 5 deaths in various parts of Delhi including one police constable.
And Trump was probably taking notes...
Maybe he and Modi can engage in a contest of who can persuecute Muslims the most....
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