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Tags michael jackson , sex scandals

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Old 26th June 2016, 03:19 PM   #161
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Just explain the pay-offs and the little kid describing his knob mark and you might convince me
Oh, no I couldn't. You are not open to reason. You are unwilling to think critically. You have made up your mind, just as stupidly stubborn as any religionist or rabid nationalist. You are, in a nutshell, not worth talking to.
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Old 26th June 2016, 03:40 PM   #162
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It would help if you had a rational explanation and not just ignoring those two facts

I'm perfectly open to reason

And would you let your kid stay in his bed for the night?

I look at it as a complete bystander

I never the met the geezer, but these two facts don't add up to him being Peter Pan "not the fiddling man"
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th June 2016, 04:11 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It would help if you had a rational explanation and not just ignoring those two facts

I'm perfectly open to reason

And would you let your kid stay in his bed for the night?

I look at it as a complete bystander

I never the met the geezer, but these two facts don't add up to him being Peter Pan "not the fiddling man"
I'm not a parent, but I'm guessing most parents would say "no" and would also say it if you replaced MJ with any other adult they don't really know.

It's not a very good argument, as far as I can tell.
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Old 26th June 2016, 04:18 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'm not a parent, but I'm guessing most parents would say "no" and would also say it if you replaced MJ with any other adult they don't really know.

It's not a very good argument, as far as I can tell.
Fair call
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th June 2016, 04:56 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Just explain the pay-offs and the little kid describing his knob mark and you might convince me
The pay-offs are easy. Just to make it stop, the trials, the attention, the pain. Or perhaps just because his lawyers told him to. Or, he didn't pay anyone off, it was the insurance company. In any case, the money meant nothing, he had an endless supply.

You have already been presented with a solid case for why the kids testimony is highly suspect. He is supposedly very familiar with MJ's junk, seeing it constantly, yet makes basic mistakes like whether he is circumcised or not.

People will do almost anything for a shot at millions of dollars. Like coach their kid on what to say.
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Old 26th June 2016, 04:59 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
The pay-offs are easy. Just to make it stop, the trials, the attention, the pain. Or perhaps just because his lawyers told him to. Or, he didn't pay anyone off, it was the insurance company. In any case, the money meant nothing, he had an endless supply.

You have already been presented with a solid case for why the kids testimony is highly suspect. He is supposedly very familiar with MJ's junk, seeing it constantly, yet makes basic mistakes like whether he is circumcised or not.

People will do almost anything for a shot at millions of dollars. Like coach their kid on what to say.
So Jackson liked to let hang out for kids on multiple occasions
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th June 2016, 05:25 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I'm perfectly open to reason... I look at it as a complete bystander
No, your "explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs" mantra clearly disproves that. It's an inherently flagrantly dishonest argument, and those are not the work of someone who is being reasonable or uninvested.
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Old 26th June 2016, 05:28 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
No, your "explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs explain the payoffs" mantra clearly disproves that. It's an inherently flagrantly dishonest argument, and those are not the work of someone who is being reasonable or uninvested.
Are you trying to tell me something?
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th June 2016, 05:33 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So Jackson liked to let hang out for kids on multiple occasions
I think that point went over your head by about a foot.

The prosecution made the implication that the kid saw his junk many times, yet handwaved it away when he stumbled on certain details.
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Old 26th June 2016, 05:49 PM   #170
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Whatever.

You don't suddenly grow a birth mark
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th June 2016, 06:12 PM   #171
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For what it's worth, I don't think "would you let your child sleep in his bed with him" is a very useful measuring stick. I don't have children; but I'm fairly confident I would likely not allow them to sleep in a bed together with some strange adult no matter whether I suspected that person of being a pedophile or not.

On the other hand, I'm quite nonplussed whenever I read a person replying to that question with "yes", that they would certainly let their children spend "alone time" with a strange adult, in that adult's bedroom, in the adult's bed, apparently as long as there wasn't positive proof the adult was a pedophile who specifically planned to molest their child. I do not understand the mindset. To me it has nothing to do with "pedo fear" specifically, but more to do with a need to reinforce the concept of boundaries and a sense of what is and what is not an appropriate relationship to have with an adult in my kid.

Michael Jackson was able to make these things happen because of his fame and money. I try to imagine my neighbor who I don't talk with very often - or my lawyer, or my boss, or a close friend at work, or even an adult my son would already have a close relationship with like a baseball coach or a scout leader or something - coming up to me one day like "Hey, is it okay if your 10-year-old son comes over to my house and sleeps in my bedroom with me tonight? We'll have lots of good clean fun." No matter what face I put behind those words, it never stops being a completely preposterous notion.
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Old 26th June 2016, 06:56 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Whatever.

You don't suddenly grow a birth mark
I'll be the one to first directly ask *you* to provide evidence. Please provide documentation that supports that the mark found was a "birthmark" and not a temporary thing as a result of skin disease.

You make this assertion as if it was fact. So, back it up.

Last edited by Mister Earl; 26th June 2016 at 06:58 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 26th June 2016, 07:01 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Mister Earl View Post
I'll be the one to first directly ask *you* to provide evidence. Please provide documentation that supports that the mark found was a "birthmark" and not a temporary thing as a result of skin disease.

You make this assertion as if it was fact. So, back it up.
How can it be temporary if it was still there on examination?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th June 2016, 07:06 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
How can it be temporary if it was still there on examination?
So I take it this means that you're incapable or unwilling to back up your assertion with evidence? I am not going to indulge your "Just asking questions!" methodology, because that goes nowhere. For evidence of that, look at the entire 9/11 "Truther" movement and how far that's gotten.

Last edited by Mister Earl; 26th June 2016 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 26th June 2016, 08:22 PM   #175
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Let's take some of your tabloid nonsense,... one at a time.

> Where did you get the information of Jackson paying out twenty million in hush money?

Please cite your sources. "It just seems to me..." and "I heard from a guy who read it on the internet" are NOT "sources" of repute.
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Old 26th June 2016, 08:58 PM   #176
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Quote:
How can it be temporary if it was still there on examination?
You still haven't read the link I posted, have you?

The drawing the kid provided was an educated guess. Of the numerous splotches, blotches and marks he claimed covered MJ's nethers, the defense only attempted to enter ONE as being at "about" the right place.

They were banking on being able to use the skin disorder to "prove" the child's description.

But while he was able to draw all kinds of splotches, blotches, and marks because he'd supposedly seen it soooo many times and at soooo many angles and under soooo many circumstances......

Yet he never noticed the man was uncircumcised. Sorry, but in a single encounter with a freaked out kid, that might be understandable. But this kid supposedly experienced multiple intimate encounters, and yet missed the largest, most distinctive feature of all.

There's other evidence Jordan was coached. There's a crude drawing with handwritten notes that appears to be a draft made by an adult with suggestions for what MJ's body might look like.

So far as parents allowing kids to sleep with strange adults: I don't believe nearly anyone here would. But there are those who would, and do. Jordan's parents apparently knew very well Jordan was sleeping in MJ's room, but they did nothing to stop it happening. They only started crying "wolf, wolf, wolf" when MJ refused to build a new wing on to their house.

MJ was acquitted of all the charges against him. If he did anything wrong, no one was able to prove it.
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Old 26th June 2016, 09:33 PM   #177
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Quote:
So far as parents allowing kids to sleep with strange adults: I don't believe nearly anyone here would. But there are those who would, and do.
I'm going to try to expand on this a bit, because I really feel like it's a major point that seems to go right over the heads of many.

I think *most* of the people that find their way to this message board grew up in fairly stereotypical families: Mom, Dad, kids. Maybe grandparents and extended visited, maybe the spare room had a permanent resident aunt or other relative. But for the most part, folks here grew up in single family homes or single family apartments, that actually housed the members of a single family.

But for many people in the USA, that is a pipe dream. Two miles up the road from me there's an apartment complex that's mostly filled with temporary farm workers. They often live with three or even four families all crammed into a single two bedroom apartment. Multiple adults, multiple children, even multiple pets, all eating, living and sleeping in fairly haphazard arrangements. It's not unusual. It's not weird. It's LIFE for them. And yet, any kind of weird sexual relations between the peoples in these circumstances is just that: weird.

Many of us are descended from pioneer families who lived in tiny cabins, and all slept together in one giant bed. It wasn't strange or a disaster waiting to happen. It was just LIFE.

I don't know much about MJ's early life, or the lives of his parents. But I wouldn't be surprised if his parents lived in very small houses, with extended family. I wouldn't be surprised if they told stories of "those good ol' days" to their children, and MJ built some fantasy in his head that those kinds of sleeping arrangements were happier, healthier, and a vital part of his dream childhood.

The people he was associating with were mostly wealthier, to be sure. Jordan Chandler's father was a famous dentist. But as most or all were black, I'd guess most of them had the same communal living as part of their heritage.

When we're considering the actions of any person, we need to step back, take a longer look, and see just what kind of tail is on the damn kite before we jump to the conclusion they're too weird for words. Because what might seem alien and weird to you and I, might just be perfectly normal for THEM.
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Old 26th June 2016, 09:55 PM   #178
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Quote:
Initial media reports after the 1993 strip search (for example, Reuters, USA Today in January 1994), citing law enforcement sources, stated that the boy’s description did not match the photographs taken of Jackson’s genitalia. The claim that the photos matched the description spread through the media only later – particularly after an interview Sneddon gave to Vanity Fair’s Maureen Orth in September 1995 where he claimed the photographs matched Jordan’s description.

Interestingly, Dr. Richard Strick, the doctor who was present at the strip search from the authorities’ side, indicated in an interview with Fox News in October 2009 that he did not come to a conclusion on his own, but rather someone else told him later that it was a match.


“The genitalia were very oddly colored with dark skin and light skin and I was told later that the deposition and the photos that were taken absolutely matched what the child had described”.

Based on his statement it seems Dr. Strick did not actually see Jordan’s description and drawing; he was only told that there was a match. This is odd; as a medical professional, hired by the authorities to be present at the strip search, one would expect that he would have been asked to make the determination. It is unknown who told Dr. Strick that there was a match but all claims of this nature seem to point to Sneddon as a source.
http://michaeljacksonallegations.com...by-the-police/

Now that just seems kind of fishy.
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Old 26th June 2016, 10:35 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I'm going to try to expand on this a bit, because I really feel like it's a major point that seems to go right over the heads of many.

I think *most* of the people that find their way to this message board grew up in fairly stereotypical families: Mom, Dad, kids. Maybe grandparents and extended visited, maybe the spare room had a permanent resident aunt or other relative. But for the most part, folks here grew up in single family homes or single family apartments, that actually housed the members of a single family.

But for many people in the USA, that is a pipe dream. Two miles up the road from me there's an apartment complex that's mostly filled with temporary farm workers. They often live with three or even four families all crammed into a single two bedroom apartment. Multiple adults, multiple children, even multiple pets, all eating, living and sleeping in fairly haphazard arrangements. It's not unusual. It's not weird. It's LIFE for them. And yet, any kind of weird sexual relations between the peoples in these circumstances is just that: weird.

Many of us are descended from pioneer families who lived in tiny cabins, and all slept together in one giant bed. It wasn't strange or a disaster waiting to happen. It was just LIFE.

I don't know much about MJ's early life, or the lives of his parents. But I wouldn't be surprised if his parents lived in very small houses, with extended family. I wouldn't be surprised if they told stories of "those good ol' days" to their children, and MJ built some fantasy in his head that those kinds of sleeping arrangements were happier, healthier, and a vital part of his dream childhood.

The people he was associating with were mostly wealthier, to be sure. Jordan Chandler's father was a famous dentist. But as most or all were black, I'd guess most of them had the same communal living as part of their heritage.

When we're considering the actions of any person, we need to step back, take a longer look, and see just what kind of tail is on the damn kite before we jump to the conclusion they're too weird for words. Because what might seem alien and weird to you and I, might just be perfectly normal for THEM.
Think you will find it is the same in most other countries
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th June 2016, 10:37 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by HenryLee View Post
http://michaeljacksonallegations.com...by-the-police/

Now that just seems kind of fishy.
A link to a fansite doesn't really cut it
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th June 2016, 10:50 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
A link to a fansite doesn't really cut it
Respectfully, why don't you just read the evidence. That site has an available download of the actual trial transcripts. You haven't bothered to do even the most cursory investigation of the crap you're spouting, virtually all of it sourced from tabloid gossip rags.
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Old 26th June 2016, 10:52 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Respectfully, why don't you just read the evidence. That site has an available download of the actual trial transcripts. You haven't bothered to do even the most cursory investigation of the crap you're spouting, virtually all of it sourced from tabloid gossip rags.
I looked at that site a few days ago.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th June 2016, 10:54 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I looked at that site a few days ago.
Cite me some cross-examination from the trial, then. Which particular evidence do you find the most damning - compared to the twelve jurors who returned "innocent" on all fourteen counts.

And tell us where you got the twenty million dollars pay-off information. Hint: It'll be in the FAQ on the site you're disparaging.
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Old 26th June 2016, 11:03 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
A link to a fansite doesn't really cut it
I'll say "fansite" is a fair characterization. However, if you look a little closer you'll see almost every page is backed up with citations, links, and sources.

Even if you completely disagree with the site owner's pov or conclusions, you can't claim he didn't do his homework.
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Old 26th June 2016, 11:34 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I'll say "fansite" is a fair characterization. However, if you look a little closer you'll see almost every page is backed up with citations, links, and sources.

Even if you completely disagree with the site owner's pov or conclusions, you can't claim he didn't do his homework.
I agree, but I'd assume they are carefully selected
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 26th June 2016, 11:39 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I agree, but I'd assume they are carefully selected
Maybe. But if you're really interested in the facts of the case, they're a good place to start. As I said, he cites everything, so you can certainly go check his sources for yourself.

You may never change your mind, and that's okay. But please, at least base your judgement on the facts, and not the tsunami of media misinformation and slander that was flying back n forth 'round the world when all this was happening.
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Old 26th June 2016, 11:39 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I agree, but I'd assume they are carefully selected
I'm sure this is true. This is also why people have asked you for citations to the contrary, rather than just repeating the mantra of "what about the payoffs?"
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Old 26th June 2016, 11:40 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Maybe. But if you're really interested in the facts of the case, they're a good place to start. As I said, he cites everything, so you can certainly go check his sources for yourself.

You may never change your mind, and that's okay. But please, at least base your judgement on the facts, and not the tsunami of media misinformation and slander that was flying back n forth 'round the world when all this was happening.
Fair call.

I'll have another look
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Old 26th June 2016, 11:51 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Fair call.

I'll have another look
Thank-you. That is all anyone can ask: just look at the facts and decide for yourself then.
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Old 27th June 2016, 04:54 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I'm going to try to expand on this a bit, because I really feel like it's a major point that seems to go right over the heads of many.

I think *most* of the people that find their way to this message board grew up in fairly stereotypical families: Mom, Dad, kids. Maybe grandparents and extended visited, maybe the spare room had a permanent resident aunt or other relative. But for the most part, folks here grew up in single family homes or single family apartments, that actually housed the members of a single family.

But for many people in the USA, that is a pipe dream. Two miles up the road from me there's an apartment complex that's mostly filled with temporary farm workers. They often live with three or even four families all crammed into a single two bedroom apartment. Multiple adults, multiple children, even multiple pets, all eating, living and sleeping in fairly haphazard arrangements. It's not unusual. It's not weird. It's LIFE for them. And yet, any kind of weird sexual relations between the peoples in these circumstances is just that: weird.

Many of us are descended from pioneer families who lived in tiny cabins, and all slept together in one giant bed. It wasn't strange or a disaster waiting to happen. It was just LIFE.

I don't know much about MJ's early life, or the lives of his parents. But I wouldn't be surprised if his parents lived in very small houses, with extended family. I wouldn't be surprised if they told stories of "those good ol' days" to their children, and MJ built some fantasy in his head that those kinds of sleeping arrangements were happier, healthier, and a vital part of his dream childhood.

The people he was associating with were mostly wealthier, to be sure. Jordan Chandler's father was a famous dentist. But as most or all were black, I'd guess most of them had the same communal living as part of their heritage.

When we're considering the actions of any person, we need to step back, take a longer look, and see just what kind of tail is on the damn kite before we jump to the conclusion they're too weird for words. Because what might seem alien and weird to you and I, might just be perfectly normal for THEM.
What DragonLady says is actually very true. Separate beds for kids is not as common as most people want to make it out to be. Multiple members of a family sleeping in the same room, or even the same bed, is very common.

The main reason why children don't sleep with adults in the US is because adults don't want to (because of the larger American societal norms). The same societal norms which dictated, in the Victorian era) that couples should not sleep on the same bed. When an adult does not feel bound by societal pressure to follow sleeping customs, it's not really an unexpected outcome for children to want some company in bed.

What suggests 'pedophile' to a large number of people on this thread is accepted as normal behaviour in the majority of the world.
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Old 27th June 2016, 06:08 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Dipayan View Post
What DragonLady says is actually very true. Separate beds for kids is not as common as most people want to make it out to be. Multiple members of a family sleeping in the same room, or even the same bed, is very common.

The main reason why children don't sleep with adults in the US is because adults don't want to (because of the larger American societal norms). The same societal norms which dictated, in the Victorian era) that couples should not sleep on the same bed. When an adult does not feel bound by societal pressure to follow sleeping customs, it's not really an unexpected outcome for children to want some company in bed.

What suggests 'pedophile' to a large number of people on this thread is accepted as normal behaviour in the majority of the world.
While this is true, as I recall Jackson was not accused of sleeping in the same bed as children. Rather, he allowed children (and parents) to sleep in his bedroom in his mansion, which had, among other things, a staircase and a second floor.
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Old 27th June 2016, 06:53 AM   #192
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Sure, Michael Jackson certainly displayed behavior that sends up red flags to me, and I don't think I would have wanted my hypothetical kid spending the time alone with him.

That said, he was also a very eccentric person overall and I wouldn't discount him simply trying to live a very skewed version of a childhood that he never had or trying to give kids that fantasy childhood to make up for his own messed up childhood without any sexual overtones. He may have been so set on doing so that he was just blind to the boundaries that most people would consider him to have crossed.

He could also have had sexual feelings towards kids, but never actually acted on them. As far as I can tell, there's no real evidence that he did so.
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Old 27th June 2016, 06:58 AM   #193
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Old 27th June 2016, 07:15 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
While this is true, as I recall Jackson was not accused of sleeping in the same bed as children. Rather, he allowed children (and parents) to sleep in his bedroom in his mansion, which had, among other things, a staircase and a second floor.
It's my understanding Jordan Chandler claimed he and MJ slept in the same bed.
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Old 27th June 2016, 07:18 AM   #195
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Quote:
Jordan claimed that from then on, whenever he and Jackson were together, they slept in the same bed. In the Gardner interview Jordan claimed that physical contact started in early May with Jackson simply hugging him. But he contradicted himself later in the interview when he said that on a trip to Florida, which took place in April, Jackson grabbed his butt and put his tongue in his ear.
http://michaeljacksonallegations.com...r-allegations/

Warning: the descriptions on that page are pretty graphic, and may be triggering.
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Old 27th June 2016, 08:08 AM   #196
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I realize I am bucking for a ban by outing the real meat space identity of a forum member but I feel I must. It is obvious when you put the pieces together.

Always posting dialog like a wannabe screenwriter, staunch defender of Michael Jackson, and obviously his handle here. Yes Tragic Monkey, I know you are Bubbles. Seek help now.
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Old 27th June 2016, 08:24 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
I realize I am bucking for a ban by outing the real meat space identity of a forum member but I feel I must. It is obvious when you put the pieces together.

Always posting dialog like a wannabe screenwriter, staunch defender of Michael Jackson, and obviously his handle here. Yes Tragic Monkey, I know you are Bubbles. Seek help now.
The funny thing is that despite my love for 80s music I have never cared for Michael Jackson's work. The only thing of his I've ever liked in the least was Alien Ant Farm's cover of Smooth Criminal, and they did that as a joke.
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Old 27th June 2016, 08:31 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The only thing of his I've ever liked in the least was Alien Ant Farm's cover of Smooth Criminal
I totally get not liking Michael Jackson. But this? You are a horrible human being and I will never listen to your opinion on anything in the future.

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Old 27th June 2016, 10:26 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
http://michaeljacksonallegations.com...r-allegations/

Warning: the descriptions on that page are pretty graphic, and may be triggering.
Gruesome stuff indeed but... then there's the way they came out, initially under anesthesia administered by alleged(by Carrie Fisher) "Dr. Feelgood"s(and she would know) then being given more shape by the people who brought us the McMartin Preschool fiasco, it's just kind of rotten.

But I know, I know...What About The Payoffs!!!
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Old 27th June 2016, 10:51 AM   #200
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Thanks to this thread, I'm convinced that MJ was the victim in all of this. I suspected before that the allegations were made up in order to get money from him, but now I'm sure of it.

MJ was definitely a creepy weirdo but he never hurt anyone.
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