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Old 19th July 2017, 08:19 PM   #681
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Lol... The civil war was pretty much literally a war for self-government based on economic interest!

Said economic interest being the preservation and continuation of Negro chattel slavery.

Back to you.
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:33 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
<snip>

Seven million people died in that war on both sides simply because no one wanted to be rational, it accomplished absolutely nothing.

<snip>

Beg pardon?

The numbers I have seen range from 750,000 to something over 1,000,000 dead including free civilians and slaves. (620,000 to 750,000 of them soldiers killed in combat or combat related causes.)

It was plenty horrific enough. More American deaths than all of the wars we have fought since then.

No need to exaggerate.
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Old 20th July 2017, 07:25 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Wrong. Tax was simply one easy-to-understand example of the result of being governed without representation; I'm sure you're aware there were others.

More than the "taxation without representation" it was the Quartering Act that stimulated the reaction of the colonists against the excesses of the British government, an act which was protested as a violation of British law. One could argue it was this particular bit of legislation that set the first pebble bouncing down the mountainside.
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Old 20th July 2017, 08:24 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
More than the "taxation without representation" it was the Quartering Act that stimulated the reaction of the colonists against the excesses of the British government, an act which was protested as a violation of British law. One could argue it was this particular bit of legislation that set the first pebble bouncing down the mountainside.
Yeah, this is interesting. The 3rd amendment actually involves quartering of soldiers. You read that today and it seems so mundane, but obviously, at the time the Constitution was written, it was pretty important. So important that it had to be delineated in the Bill of Rights.

It doesn't address relative importance of issues, but shows that it mattered. Were we to rewrite the constitution today, I doubt anyone would think to put that in.
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Old 20th July 2017, 10:41 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Said economic interest being the preservation and continuation of Negro chattel slavery.

Back to you.
Very succinct and accurate, thank you.
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Old 20th July 2017, 01:39 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
.
Why shouldn't it? Of what value does it serve?
Why shouldn't any piece of public art or sculpture be removed? Of what value do any of them serve?
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Old 20th July 2017, 01:43 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That is completely different from (and much less attractive than) what you were saying before, which was
Applying the moral judgment of "heinous" to an act that was not universally viewed as such at the time.

Again, defining it as objectively wrong at the time.
You were saying, things can't be defined as immoral unless they were perceived to be such when they happened. Now you're saying "well if my peers think something is moral, what's the point of my going to the trouble of offending them?"
That is not any argument. If you think your peers are behaving immorally, it is both possible and necessary to oppose and offend them.

The South should therefore be erecting monuments in honour of the minority of abolitionists in the company of their ancestors who risked ostracism, and much worse, in the fight against bondage.
Wow. That was a really interesting snipping of my quote, and an unusual reading of it. Especially that whole bit where you start inserting "if your peers are behaving immorally" while ignoring the section of my post that immediately followed it. To wit:
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm comfortable with my own view of morality, and I'm confident that I am a moral person. Acting against that moral base would be senseless and pointless, and serve no purpose at all. What part of society's views do you think I should have any reason to act in opposition to? There are many topics that don't have a social consensus. I have my own opinion of them, but at present there's no view that I hold that is in opposition to a clear consensus that has any reason for me to act against.
Is there a question that you're beating around the bush about? What is it that you're actually trying to ask? Just ask that question.
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Old 20th July 2017, 01:45 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Why shouldn't any piece of public art or sculpture be removed? Of what value do any of them serve?
Many different values that depends on the piece, the location, and the society.
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Old 20th July 2017, 01:47 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Said economic interest being the preservation and continuation of Negro chattel slavery.

Back to you.
Yep. Still about economics though.
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Old 20th July 2017, 02:19 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Beg pardon?

The numbers I have seen range from 750,000 to something over 1,000,000 dead including free civilians and slaves. (620,000 to 750,000 of them soldiers killed in combat or combat related causes.)

It was plenty horrific enough. More American deaths than all of the wars we have fought since then.

No need to exaggerate.

Sorry, I read the number wrong.
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Old 20th July 2017, 02:27 PM   #691
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Why shouldn't any piece of public art or sculpture be removed? Of what value do any of them serve?
We're not talking about a piece of public art or sculpture. We're talking about a memorial with no connection to the area or, really, history.
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Old 20th July 2017, 02:29 PM   #692
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yep. Still about economics though.
The memorial wasn't about the war, of course. It was about the "Spirit of the Confederacy" and the Confederacy was founded on slavery.
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Old 20th July 2017, 07:56 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I don't know anything about Lost Cause whatever it is.
Speaking of memorials. I'd like this bronzed.

"Here, y'all I don't know anything about the topic at all and I'd sure like to share it with you."
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Old 20th July 2017, 10:54 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yep. Still about economics though.

Because we don't want to remind anyone about that whole ugly "slavery" thing.

So lets all just pretend it wasn't the entire point of the war and say "economics" instead.

Maybe no one will notice.
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Old 21st July 2017, 05:54 AM   #695
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This is a little child arguing that them breaking the cookie jar wasn't about them wanting to sneak a cookie before mealtime so they tried to reach the jar but tipped it over off the counter onto the floor but gravity.

This whole "It's not about the thing, it's about the thing that's about thing" kind of reductionism parading moral relativism is laughably transparent. By this logic every argument could replaced with "Because entropy."
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Old 21st July 2017, 10:30 AM   #696
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
This whole "It's not about the thing, it's about the thing that's about thing" kind of reductionism parading moral relativism is laughably transparent. By this logic every argument could replaced with "Because entropy."
- Stalin killed millions of people.
- Yeah, but that was economics.

Or much more reductio-ad-absurdly:

- I failed the exam.
- You should've studied, I told you.
- Don't blame me. At the deepest level, it's quantum mechanics.

The fact that we have at our disposal different levels at which we can describe reality is very helpful. We can choose a layer to discuss a matter, or choose another one to evade it and sorta make it look like we're discussing the matter.
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Old 21st July 2017, 11:30 AM   #697
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yep. Still about economics though.
It was about economics at the time but now it would be about human rights.

It should have been about human rights then.

But we hadn't progressed that far yet as a society. Ravaging weaker races was still in vogue.

I view the argument that "it was about economics" as a misdirect and withholding of information.

Also, what Joe and Quad said.

Last edited by Imhotep; 21st July 2017 at 11:31 AM. Reason: Joe
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Old 21st July 2017, 11:31 AM   #698
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Beg pardon?

The numbers I have seen range from 750,000 to something over 1,000,000 dead including free civilians and slaves. (620,000 to 750,000 of them soldiers killed in combat or combat related causes.)

It was plenty horrific enough. More American deaths than all of the wars we have fought since then.

No need to exaggerate.
Where the hell did Jodie get that number??? I am a die hard Civil War Geek,and I have never seen a number that large quoted.
or Jodie might have just pulled the number out of thin air, because it sounded good,a very bad move on a skeptic's page.....
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Old 21st July 2017, 12:49 PM   #699
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No I saw it rounded off to 700,000 and read it wrong, it happens.
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Old 21st July 2017, 12:58 PM   #700
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
It was about economics at the time but now it would be about human rights.

It should have been about human rights then.

But we hadn't progressed that far yet as a society. Ravaging weaker races was still in vogue.

I view the argument that "it was about economics" as a misdirect and withholding of information.

Also, what Joe and Quad said.
And once again I must remind some, if obviously not others, that not only is it about human rights now, but for very many it was then. I'm descended from abolitionists, some of whom fought, and a few of whom died, for human rights then. Many fought for the Union for other reasons, including, no doubt the loyal Unionists of Missouri. But for some it was always an issue of human rights. They were right and they won. As the saying these days goes, "suck it up, buttercup."
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Old 21st July 2017, 01:12 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
And once again I must remind some, if obviously not others, that not only is it about human rights now, but for very many it was then. I'm descended from abolitionists, some of whom fought, and a few of whom died, for human rights then. Many fought for the Union for other reasons, including, no doubt the loyal Unionists of Missouri. But for some it was always an issue of human rights. They were right and they won. As the saying these days goes, "suck it up, buttercup."
Even from the flip side, the fighting was about human rights- denying them; the average southern soldier wasn't fighting for any economic interest in slavery (he had none), but, as has already been pointed out, to maintain his cultural interest in having a class of people he would be permanently superior to. And that interest outlasted the war- I grew up in south Mississippi in the early 60's, and it was alive and well even then (though in its unknowing twilight).
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Old 21st July 2017, 01:17 PM   #702
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Even from the flip side, the fighting was about human rights- denying them; the average southern soldier wasn't fighting for any economic interest in slavery (he had none), but, as has already been pointed out, to maintain his cultural interest in having a class of people he would be permanently superior to. And that interest outlasted the war- I grew up in south Mississippi in the early 60's, and it was alive and well even then (though in its unknowing twilight).
I don't think I can agree that the average southern solider was fighting to maintain his superiority over blacks. I'm sure they had a variety of reasons, a couple examples: just having a generic patriotism to the cause that wasn't really fleshed out, or simply hating the unionists.

Maybe this is a better route: Why do you think Robert Lee fought?

Edit: I am rethinking my position. I just read this:
https://www.civilwar.org/learn/artic...herners-fought

Perhaps there is a subtle difference with your argument, but the author maintains it was out of a fear of mass revolt by the slaves.

Last edited by Imhotep; 21st July 2017 at 01:53 PM. Reason: rethinking
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Old 21st July 2017, 01:19 PM   #703
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
And once again I must remind some, if obviously not others, that not only is it about human rights now, but for very many it was then. I'm descended from abolitionists, some of whom fought, and a few of whom died, for human rights then. Many fought for the Union for other reasons, including, no doubt the loyal Unionists of Missouri. But for some it was always an issue of human rights. They were right and they won. As the saying these days goes, "suck it up, buttercup."

They were brave visionaries. A pretty darn powerful combo.
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Old 21st July 2017, 02:50 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
Perhaps there is a subtle difference with your argument, but the author maintains it was out of a fear of mass revolt by the slaves.

That's a bit of a distortion of the article. While a mass revolt was mentioned, that was not the most pressing issue.

The primary reason given was that by the federal government freeing African slaves and making them equal to white people, they would engender the degradation and destruction of the white race through race war and/or miscegenation.

Quote:
every Negro in South Carolina and every other Southern state will be his own master; nay, more than that, will be the equal of every one of you. If you are tame enough to submit, abolition preachers will be at hand to consummate the marriage of your daughters to black husbands.”
Quote:
“The white children now born will be compelled to flee from the land of their birth, and from the slaves their parents have toiled to acquire as an inheritance for them, or to submit to the degradation of being reduced to an equality with them, and all its attendant horrors.”
Quote:
What Southerner, Hale asked, “can without indignation and horror contemplate the triumph of negro equality, and see his own sons and daughters in the not distant future associating with free negroes upon terms of political and social equality?” Abolition would surely mean that “the two races would be continually pressing together,” and “amalgamation or the extermination of the one or the other would be inevitable.” Secession, argued Hale, was the only means by which the “heaven ordained superiority of the white over the black race” could be sustained. The abolition of slavery would either plunge the South into a race war or so stain the blood of the white race that it would be contaminated for all time.” Could southern men “submit to such degradation and ruin,” he asked, and responded to his own question, “God forbid that they should.”

The secessionists were fully aware that the masses of poor white Southerners had no economic stake in slavery, and actually suffered because of the economics of slaves doing jobs that white workers would expect to be paid for. So they played upon the poor white racism and feelings of superiority to the black slaves. The end of of slavery would have been economically beneficial to most of the middle and particularly lower classes; but then as now, their prejudices overruled their good sense.

Quote:
Non-slaveholders, he predicted, were also in danger. “It will be to the non-slaveholder, equally with the largest slaveholder, the obliteration of caste and the deprivation of important privileges,” he cautioned. “The color of the white man is now, in the South, a title of nobility in his relations as to the negro,” he reminded his readers. “In the Southern slaveholding States, where menial and degrading offices are turned over to be per formed exclusively by the Negro slave, the status and color of the black race becomes the badge of inferiority, and the poorest non-slaveholder may rejoice with the richest of his brethren of the white race, in the distinction of his color. He may be poor, it is true; but there is no point upon which he is so justly proud and sensitive as his privilege of caste; and there is nothing which he would resent with more fierce indignation than the attempt of the Abolitionist to emancipate the slaves and elevate the Negroes to an equality with himself and his family.”
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Last edited by luchog; 21st July 2017 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 21st July 2017, 10:49 PM   #705
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
... The primary reason given was that by the federal government freeing African slaves and making them equal to white people, they would engender the degradation and destruction of the white race through race war and/or miscegenation.

The secessionists were fully aware that the masses of poor white Southerners had no economic stake in slavery, and actually suffered because of the economics of slaves doing jobs that white workers would expect to be paid for. So they played upon the poor white racism and feelings of superiority to the black slaves. The end of of slavery would have been economically beneficial to most of the middle and particularly lower classes; but then as now, their prejudices overruled their good sense.
Nice set of quotes. Card-carrying frightards for centuries. What a legacy! Zero honor, no respect.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 12:17 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That's a bit of a distortion of the article. While a mass revolt was mentioned, that was not the most pressing issue.

The primary reason given was that by the federal government freeing African slaves and making them equal to white people, they would engender the degradation and destruction of the white race through race war and/or miscegenation.








The secessionists were fully aware that the masses of poor white Southerners had no economic stake in slavery, and actually suffered because of the economics of slaves doing jobs that white workers would expect to be paid for. So they played upon the poor white racism and feelings of superiority to the black slaves. The end of of slavery would have been economically beneficial to most of the middle and particularly lower classes; but then as now, their prejudices overruled their good sense.

It all has a very familiar ring to it. Almost word for word the sentiments and beliefs of Trump's alt-right core of supporters.

Maybe those times are not as far in our past as some would like to believe.

Forgotten but not gone?
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Old 22nd July 2017, 05:48 AM   #707
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It all has a very familiar ring to it. Almost word for word the sentiments and beliefs of Trump's alt-right core of supporters.

Maybe those times are not as far in our past as some would like to believe.

Forgotten but not gone?
Far as I can tell, those times never left in the first place - the idiots are just louder now thanks to social media.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 01:08 PM   #708
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Far as I can tell, those times never left in the first place - the idiots are just louder now thanks to social media.

And the validation they believe (perhaps rightly) that the Trump election has given them.

They don't feel like they have to hide under their rocks anymore.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 01:31 PM   #709
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Wow. That was a really interesting snipping of my quote, and an unusual reading of it. Especially that whole bit where you start inserting "if your peers are behaving immorally" while ignoring the section of my post that immediately followed it. To wit
The omitted bit is you saying that various things are your opinions, which is fine and needs no further comment.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Is there a question that you're beating around the bush about?
No.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What is it that you're actually trying to ask? Just ask that question.
I was making an observation. It was sufficiently clear for you to respond if you wish. If you don't wish, that's up to you.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 10:26 PM   #710
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It all has a very familiar ring to it. Almost word for word the sentiments and beliefs of Trump's alt-right core of supporters.

Maybe those times are not as far in our past as some would like to believe.
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Far as I can tell, those times never left in the first place - the idiots are just louder now thanks to social media.
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
And the validation they believe (perhaps rightly) that the Trump election has given them.

They don't feel like they have to hide under their rocks anymore.

I'm certainly old enough to remember when desegregation was still being actively and violently resisted. And many of those who were committing that violence in the name of segregation and white separatism are still alive as well. And clearly still influential.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 11:55 PM   #711
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
And the validation they believe (perhaps rightly) that the Trump election has given them.

They don't feel like they have to hide under their rocks anymore.
It's more Obama's election that freaked them out, and Trump that took advantage of their hysterics.

To tie it back to the subject, the main objection to not flying Confederate battle flags over state capitols, having Jim Crow-era monuments to the wonderful antebellum south is that this is somehow "erasing 'our' history." Bull. Nobody is blowing up museums, and the only people trying to "erase" actual history and heritage classes of others are the exact people who make this claim about the Lost Cause (see: the ban on "ethnic studies" in Arizona). And those are where you *really* go to learn history, not some statue or flag alone.
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Old 23rd July 2017, 01:17 AM   #712
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's more Obama's election that freaked them out, and Trump that took advantage of their hysterics....
I think Rev. Barber has a point about this being the time of the Third Reconstruction, and most importantly, with it being a part of the historical track record of whitelashes in America. Good, too, if more white Americans knew their own history, such as when "Jack Johnson knocked out Jim Jeffries, and black people were murdered for it."
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Old 23rd July 2017, 02:26 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I'm certainly old enough to remember when desegregation was still being actively and violently resisted. And many of those who were committing that violence in the name of segregation and white separatism are still alive as well. And clearly still influential.

You are.

I am.

My kids aren't. And they're in their thirties. (And grew up in the South.)
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Old 23rd July 2017, 10:56 PM   #714
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I think Rev. Barber has a point about this being the time of the Third Reconstruction, and most importantly, with it being a part of the historical track record of whitelashes in America. Good, too, if more white Americans knew their own history, such as when "Jack Johnson knocked out Jim Jeffries, and black people were murdered for it."
Interesting in terms of historical context. That's the same year as the monument in the OP was erected. 1910. Make of it what you may. I just find it interesting to know a little more about the racial sentiments of the country.
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Old 24th July 2017, 04:21 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I think Rev. Barber has a point about this being the time of the Third Reconstruction, and most importantly, with it being a part of the historical track record of whitelashes in America. Good, too, if more white Americans knew their own history, such as when "Jack Johnson knocked out Jim Jeffries, and black people were murdered for it."
Rev. Barber is definitely a very smart man.

Or rather, he and I agree a lot.

He's pulling quite a few ideas together on this one, I think. Quite a few of us started getting ready for 2012 to be a racially ugly campaign as soon as Obama won, and to see quite a bit more things like "Obama Bucks", "Obama as witch doctor", and the like. That's just a matter of knowing the history that he went over. I must say, though, I was expecting a much smarter bigot than Cheeto Benito. Also, that enough people would just reject him that he wouldn't get too far.

I actually thing the best answer is to push the so-called "Identity politics" that some keep saying dems should avoid. 'These guys want to harm anyone that isn't a straight white male, here's our alternative, it's important to vote every time including midterms."
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Old 24th July 2017, 04:32 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You are.

I am.

My kids aren't. And they're in their thirties. (And grew up in the South.)
Yea they live in a time of less violent and formal forms of segregation but at least these forms are highly effective. No one really wants blacks in their schools, we just play with district lines to get it now instead of banning them.
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Old 24th July 2017, 05:26 AM   #717
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea they live in a time of less violent and formal forms of segregation but at least these forms are highly effective. No one really wants blacks in their schools, we just play with district lines to get it now instead of banning them.

I know what you are saying.

My two were spoiled worse than that ... but in the other direction.

They went to Carolina Friends School (AKA "The Hippie School In The Woods"). A small private school that went out of its way to maintain a diverse ethnic and racial mix. Generous scholarships available to minority applicants who couldn't afford the not insignificant tuition. (No vouchers in those days.)

It was so committed to principled diversity that some parents actually took there kids out and let them finish their last year or two of high school "in the real world" so they could see what they were in for.

When the oldest started looking for a college to choose he went up to Appalachian State, a very well regarded and progressive state university that was popular with kids from CFS. He decided against it because it was "too white" and went to UNC Wilmington instead.

After he had been there for a week he told us over the phone one evening that he "hadn't known there were that many Republicans in the world.".


So yeah. They might not be the best example.

Thanks to CFS they did manage to grow up with a healthy understanding of the reality of de facto segregation, and a realization of the damage it could do, but it wasn't first hand. They might have been less able to ignore it, due to the education they were getting, but they didn't have to experience it.
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Old 24th July 2017, 07:02 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I think Rev. Barber has a point about this being the time of the Third Reconstruction, and most importantly, with it being a part of the historical track record of whitelashes in America.
I won't lie, that is an interesting way to frame it. I've been rethinking things in those terms and it seems right.
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Old 24th July 2017, 08:18 AM   #719
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's a mechanism, not a choice. Morality is proscribed by the society in which you are raised. That society isn't a single monolithic thing, but is the aggregate of cultural traditions, parental influence, religion (where applicable), and interactions with other people and information.
Those things are either informed views about something, or completely arbitrary proscriptions. If the former, I certainly find them meaningful and while not things which should not be questioned, they as the aggregate of past generations experience and wisdom they should certainly be considered deeply before being ignored. If the latter, again there's nothing meaningful about them. But if they are about something then morality is about that something and not simply defined by society.

Quote:
Morality changes over time, as well as by those other influences - it's not a firmly fixed and objective tenet. one may start life believing that homosexuality is immoral... and with other influences over time change one's view to believe that it is NOT immoral. Similarly, one can be brought up believing that abortion is acceptable... and then faced with a sex partner aborting your child find that you disagree with that belief.
If one's belief can change it must change based on something. Again, what? Did you think "society's viewpoint changed, so mine should too" or "when I previously looked at the issue I didn't take into account all factors." Under your view there can be no factor other than "what society defines as morality", and the only thing that should change your opinion is the outcome of an opinion poll.

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Morality mutates and changes. I care about morality because I believe that what I believe is true and right.
True and right about what?

ETA: I should clarify: As someone who views morality as an objective thing (that doesn't mean it's simple), I can say "I believe what I believe about what is right and wrong is true and right?", but you believe that morality is defined by society. So your statement would be equivalent to "I believe what I believe about the proscriptions of society is true and right." which just gets us back exactly where we started: who cares? If you say "I care because doing so helps me to exist within that society in harmony with the people around me", which seems to be at least part of your argument, then morality for you is simply a tool toward your own selfish well being. If it's more than that, then please explain the more part, because whatever it is it will be something above "what society proscribes".


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It's the same reason you care about morality. I care about what my acceptance into my society - the opinion and respect of my peers, as well as my own valuation of myself against my own moral compass.
I care about those things, but I also care about the suffering and wellbeing of others, regardless of how they or I fit into society.

Quote:
The morality that I conform to is the morality that I have been taught, and that morality makes sense to me. Part of the reason it makes sense to me is because it is what I have been taught and it reflects why I have experienced throughout my life.
That sounds a little too circular for me. If what you should do is defined by what others tell you you should do, then anything is moral as long as it's been accepted by society.

As I said that's fine as a definition, but it's not one I care about. One aspect of morality is the desire to be and do good even when no one else is watching. Under your framework that seems pretty meaningless.

Quote:
Asking why don't I just go against society when it comes to morality is tantamount to asking "why don't you just ostracize yourself from your peers and family and make yourself an outcast for no particularly good reason?"
Except that you may have a particularly good reason, just not one that others in your society would agree to. There may be very good selfish reasons for doing something the society considers immoral.
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Old 24th July 2017, 10:36 AM   #720
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Originally Posted by Dani View Post
The fact that we have at our disposal different levels at which we can describe reality is very helpful. We can choose a layer to discuss a matter, or choose another one to evade it and sorta make it look like we're discussing the matter.
And I'm am completely done with people trying to win and/or shutdown arguments by trying to change the "layer" it is being discussed at.

We are discussing a real world social/political event and its fallout. If you think cause and effect isn't a thing or we are all brains in jars take it elsewhere.

This has become argumentative copout #1 in Woo Topics and I'll be damned if I'll let it slide in unchallenged in broader social and political topics.
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