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Old 8th September 2018, 11:04 AM   #601
Bob001
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Another nominee:
https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...lyanne-conway/
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:09 AM   #602
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Note the precise phrasing:

Quote:
Anything sent out by me would have carried my name. An early political lesson I learned: Never send an anonymous op-ed," Huntsman said.

Anything sent by him to the NY Times would have carried his name and been known to them. He didn't send an anonymous op-ed. The Times just printed it without his name -- hypothetically, of course.

He didn't say he didn't write it, just that he wouldn't have submitted it anonymously.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:18 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And they accomplish that by resignation.
Are you saying that is the only way to fulfill the oath? Can't someone decide there is a more effective method?
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:21 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Careful. I think this is the first evidence we have of BtheC making a joke.
That's about as likely as Trump making a joke.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:24 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That's what I'm thinking.

What they're doing is anti-democratic and anti-"rule of law" by any measure. If they think he's too loony to hold office, they have a duty to resign and go public, not participate in one half of the government working in secret to sabotage the other half.
Yeah this is another way that Trump is undermining the US political system, albeit unintentionally this time. If White House staff start thinking its okay to thwart the agenda of an unpopular president, or just one they don't agree with, that's going to do incredible damage to the entire operation of the Executive Branch.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:26 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Are you saying that is the only way to fulfill the oath? Can't someone decide there is a more effective method?
You either fulfill your duties as a member of the executive branch, or you resign, yes. You don't just work to sabotage in the shadows.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:36 AM   #607
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Are you saying that is the only way to fulfill the oath? Can't someone decide there is a more effective method?
"The executive power shall be vested in a president of the United States of America."

An act of disobedience in the white house an act of executive power. But the entirety of that power is vested in the president. So the disobedience is an unconstitutional act.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:38 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Open and independent manner? Huh?

He's a reporter. He talks to people, he takes notes and then he reports It. This isn't a scientific claim.
He's also not claiming to have seen Bigfoot or space aliens. It's only extraordinary claims that require extraordinary evidence. Ordinary evidence is fine for these claims.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:38 AM   #609
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You either fulfill your duties as a member of the executive branch, or you resign, yes. You don't just work to sabotage in the shadows.

That word "duties" is tricky. Is it the employee's "duty" to serve a deranged President blindly like a feudal lord serving a mad king, or is it to protect and defend the Constitution and the government as best he can?

Most (I'm not sure about all) federal government employees take this oath:
“I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/3331

Note that the word "President" doesn't appear.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:41 AM   #610
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
"The executive power shall be vested in a president of the United States of America."

An act of disobedience in the white house an act of executive power. But the entirety of that power is vested in the president. So the disobedience is an unconstitutional act.
Agreed. It would have been wrong and anti-constitutional if Bush/GOP loyalists had done it to Obama, and it's not ok now, either.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:42 AM   #611
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. A "senior official" can include executive branch bureaucrats who are holdovers from prior administrations, as well as positions which aren't even appointed by the president.
Then he wouldn't be a "senior official" of the Trump administration.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:44 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That word "duties" is tricky. Is it the employee's "duty" to serve a deranged President blindly like a feudal lord serving a mad king, or is it to protect and defend the Constitution and the government as best he can?

Most (I'm not sure about all) federal government employees take this oath:
“I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/3331

Note that the word "President" doesn't appear.
I don't think sabotaging your superior is faithfully fulfilling your duties of office by even the most generous interpretation.

If they think he's too unhinged to be POTUS, they should have resigned and gone public.

They're doing this instead to get SCOTUS judges.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:47 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Agreed. It would have been wrong and anti-constitutional if Bush/GOP loyalists had done it to Obama, and it's not ok now, either.
There were no "Bush/GOP loyalists" working in the Obama White House, although the Republican Congress did everything it could to sabotage him. These are political jobs. The people constraining Trump were selected and appointed by Trump himself, and generally (and regrettably) support Republican views about taxes, regulation, etc. That doesn't mean they have to support Trump's irrational and sometimes illegal impulses.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:49 AM   #614
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Note the precise phrasing:

Anything sent by him to the NY Times would have carried his name and been known to them. He didn't send an anonymous op-ed. The Times just printed it without his name -- hypothetically, of course.

He didn't say he didn't write it, just that he wouldn't have submitted it anonymously.
Let's say this really is spliced-hair weasel-wording and it's Huntsman who wrote the op-ed.

That would mean that the NYT thought the authentic voice of the 'resistance' in D.C. was... a man who lives in Moscow?
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:52 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You either fulfill your duties as a member of the executive branch, or you resign, yes. You don't just work to sabotage in the shadows.

Normally, I would agree with you. But there is nothing normal about Trump and the situation.

The oath is to defend the country and the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. What if the enemy is the President and you know that resigning would in reality be abandoning the nation? This isn't an easy question or decision.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:54 AM   #616
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Normally, I would agree with you. But there is nothing normal about Trump and the situation.

The oath is to defend the country and the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. What if the enemy is the President and you know that resigning would in reality be abandoning the nation? This isn't an easy question or decision.
Well you can't fulfill a duty by violating that duty. If the president gives an order, the deputy does not have authority to rescind that order.
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Old 8th September 2018, 11:58 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Let's say this really is spliced-hair weasel-wording and it's Huntsman who wrote the op-ed.

That would mean that the NYT thought the authentic voice of the 'resistance' in D.C. was... a man who lives in Moscow?
He's a long-time public official with numerous connections. He has worked for Reagan, both Bushes and Obama. He's no Trump acolyte. And I'm sure he returns to Washington regularly -- most recently for Sen. McCain's funeral, just before the op-ed appeared.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Huntsman_Jr.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:04 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The oath is to defend the country and the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. What if the enemy is the President and you know that resigning would in reality be abandoning the nation? This isn't an easy question or decision.
Then you invoke the 25th Amendment, or while resigning ensure that the general public knows exactly why you're resigning.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:09 PM   #619
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Then he wouldn't be a "senior official" of the Trump administration.
Even if it was an appointee of Trump, how many are really bonafide Trump supporters?

This is a President who beat one party by orchestrating the hostile takeover of the other. He had to borrow from 'enemy' machinery to run his admin since he didn't have his own to draw from. It's been a forced fit from day 1.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:12 PM   #620
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That's what I'm thinking.

What they're doing is anti-democratic and anti-"rule of law" by any measure. If they think he's too loony to hold office, they have a duty to resign and go public, not participate in one half of the government working in secret to sabotage the other half.
It's not as if Trump believes in democracy or the rule of law himself.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:14 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
This is a serious, non-snarky question:
Are you laying out a case that the "deep state" as it's referred to is real, and is comprised of high-ish level bureaucrats who are holdovers from one administration to the next?
What else could it possibly be?

'Imaginary' ranks at the top of the list of possibilities.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:17 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Then you invoke the 25th Amendment, or while resigning ensure that the general public knows exactly why you're resigning.
Who says he's a cabinet member?

I don't think there is ANYTHING simple about this. I also don't think the 25th was in fact meant to resolve the present situation.

I understand the predicament. On one hand working against the President from within can legitimately be viewed as criminal and yet it very well may be the most patriotic action one could take.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 8th September 2018 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:18 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Evidence about a possible author:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ter-trump.html
Huntsman denied it early on, through embassy tweet:

<snip>

Mark Felt denied being Deep Throat for about three decades. Until he didn't anymore.

Quote:


I guess if it's really top level though, it's going to have to be someone who has denied it. They have all denied now, right?

I am not suggesting it was Huntsman. I really have no idea who it might have been.

But you are getting to the core point here. Denial, at this stage, is pretty meaningless.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:20 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Well you can't fulfill a duty by violating that duty. If the president gives an order, the deputy does not have authority to rescind that order.
The ultimate duty is to protect the nation and the Constitution.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:20 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It's not as if Trump believes in democracy or the rule of law himself.
I think that goes for a lot of politicians. Few are quite so brazen about it, though.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:22 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Normally, I would agree with you. But there is nothing normal about Trump and the situation.

The oath is to defend the country and the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. What if the enemy is the President and you know that resigning would in reality be abandoning the nation? This isn't an easy question or decision.
I don't mean to make it out like it's easy. But the right, lawful thing to do is to resign and go public.

The only reason they're not doing that is because of political consequences like getting SCOTUS judges, tho. Not "patriotism".
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Last edited by kellyb; 8th September 2018 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:25 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The oath is to defend the country and the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. What if the enemy is the President and you know that resigning would in reality be abandoning the nation? This isn't an easy question or decision.
Then you invoke the 25th Amendment, or while resigning ensure that the general public knows exactly why you're resigning.

Bear in mind that we are talking about top ranking conservative Republicans, regardless of who is involved.

They are not known for their personal responsibility or integrity. That horse is way out of the barn.

None of them are going to do anything which costs them at all, even a little bit.

Expect nothing from them until the cost of keeping their head down is worse than the cost of exposure.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:25 PM   #628
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
'Imaginary' ranks at the top of the list of possibilities.
This is real, though:

http://www.pce.at/PDF/US-Schattenregierung.pdf
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:26 PM   #629
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The ultimate duty is to protect the nation and the Constitution.
But you can't protect the constitution by violating it. Congress cannot save us from a deranged judiciary by holding trials themselves.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:26 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Who says he's a cabinet member?
I didn't say he was. I presented two choices. Those are the only two choices for anybody who is concerned about upholding democracy. If you're unable to do one of the two choices, then you must do the other, if you're concerned about upholding democracy.

Quote:
On one hand working against the President from within can legitimately be viewed as criminal and yet it very well may be the most patriotic action one could take.
Demolishing the democratic institutions of the country is not patriotic.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:38 PM   #631
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Interesting, and thanks for your comprehensive response.

I consider "fake news" to be outlets which go beyond just lying by omission, but actually create totally fabricated "facts" - the sort of thing described here. https://www.npr.org/sections/alltech...in-the-suburbs

It's not just the right that does it, but some leftwing websites, "Occupy Democrats" being one of the worst and best known.

I'm curious to know what you see as the most reliable media outlets, specifically?

Personally, I tend to put "trust" in specific journalists over outlets. The only news outlet I fully trust is TRNN, and in that case, I guess it's the editor who I trust.
We pretty much agree on this. I'm a skeptic and generally don't believe anything at first glance that can in any way be connected to politics, regardless of the source. Because we have a free press, fake news has always been with us, from the beginning. It's the American way. So, it's reasonable to not trust any of the news outlets, because the truth isn't always what they are trying to deliver, especially when they are covering a GOP woman supposedly making secret white power signs instead of the booming economy. They have no shame -- none at all.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:47 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Are you saying that is the only way to fulfill the oath? Can't someone decide there is a more effective method?
Not really, I think. Other methods, such as removing items from his desk, are not really consistent with the Constitution. The President has certain powers, and I'm not sure that thwarting those powers is defensible, even if done so with the interests of the nation in mind.

I'm kinda ambivalent on this issue. I kinda like that there are grownups with our interests in mind, but I'm not sure that the behavior we're discussing here is the proper response to what I regard as a crisis.
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Old 8th September 2018, 01:02 PM   #633
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
....
It's the American way. So, it's reasonable to not trust any of the news outlets, because the truth isn't always what they are trying to deliver, especially when they are covering a GOP woman supposedly making secret white power signs instead of the booming economy. ...

Yeah, maybe the press should be covering the economy more closely. But not for the reason you think:

Quote:
But most Americans are still living in the shadow of the Great Recession. More have jobs, to be sure. But they haven’t seen any rise in their wages, adjusted for inflation.

Many are worse off due to the escalating costs of housing, healthcare, and education. And the value of whatever assets they own is less than in 2007.

Last year, about 40 percent of American families struggled to meet at least one basic need — food, health care, housing or utilities, according to an Urban Institute survey.

All of which suggests we’re careening toward the same sort of crash we had in 2008, and possibly as bad as 1929.
https://www.salon.com/2018/09/07/rob...crash_partner/

Of course, you don't have to believe a word of it if it doesn't come out of Dear Leader's mouth.
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Old 8th September 2018, 01:22 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Not really, I think. Other methods, such as removing items from his desk, are not really consistent with the Constitution. The President has certain powers, and I'm not sure that thwarting those powers is defensible, even if done so with the interests of the nation in mind.

I'm kinda ambivalent on this issue. I kinda like that there are grownups with our interests in mind, but I'm not sure that the behavior we're discussing here is the proper response to what I regard as a crisis.
We might not be in a crisis is these people just went public with everything they know and called upon congress to remove him from office.
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Old 8th September 2018, 01:26 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
We might not be in a crisis is these people just went public with everything they know and called upon congress to remove him from office.
On what grounds? That they don't like Trump's policy choices? That they don't like Trump himself?

You seem to think that the author is alleging more than he is actually alleging.
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Old 8th September 2018, 01:31 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
On what grounds? That they don't like Trump's policy choices? That they don't like Trump himself?

You seem to think that the author is alleging more than he is actually alleging.
Whatever they have to say that they feel morally and legally justifies committing acts like stealing papers off the desk of the President of the United States of America.
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Old 8th September 2018, 01:32 PM   #637
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
On what grounds? That they don't like Trump's policy choices? That they don't like Trump himself?

You seem to think that the author is alleging more than he is actually alleging.
The author is alleging that Trump is incapable of fulfilling his duties and indeed exhibits behaviour that would make him pretty much unemployable in virtually any area.
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Old 8th September 2018, 01:33 PM   #638
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
On what grounds? That they don't like Trump's policy choices? That they don't like Trump himself?

You seem to think that the author is alleging more than he is actually alleging.
Going so far to order a major policy change be prepared, but to forget about it simply because the paper doesn't materialize is disqualifying in my eyes.
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Old 8th September 2018, 01:34 PM   #639
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His "amorality" and "lack of a lodestar" is certainly diagnoseable.
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Old 8th September 2018, 01:36 PM   #640
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
We might not be in a crisis is these people just went public with everything they know and called upon congress to remove him from office.
Maybe not, but I'm not so sure that the Congress is willing to act.

I'm totally not thrilled with the allegations from Woodward or the op ed writer. But I can't say for sure what these folk ought to do.
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