ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 19th November 2017, 08:00 PM   #961
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,692
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
If this is such a minor offense, why then did the republicans start using it as an epithet?

"Ha ha ha, we are going to insult them by saying "democrat party." Aren't we clever?"
"We find that insulting."
"Oh lighten up. What's the big deal? Micro-aggression!"
Oh please! I thought you were serious for a moment.
__________________
"I have no clue" - King of the Americas
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2017, 08:25 PM   #962
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,168
Bi-partisanship "Whatboutism" and "Youtooism" via Grammar pedantry.

Truly we are living in a gilded age. How did we ever get so lucky?
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong
JoeBentley is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2017, 09:08 PM   #963
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,461
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Not where it counts, loser.
Midwest flyover land is known for attitude. Not in a good way - electoral collegie way like the rest of the not particularly important states that get more than their fair share of representatives both in the House and in the Electoral College. Yes, the flyovers do not have a population that justifies that. Needs to be written out of US law!!!!

The losing is only due to that crap!!! The only reason for it involved slave states
and that excuse is very dead now.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:38 AM   #964
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,949
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Not where it counts, loser.
Are you calling me a loser? Why?
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:03 AM   #965
ShadowSot
Graduate Poster
 
ShadowSot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pensacola
Posts: 1,094
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Even if things have gotten "that bad" and half the country has started worshiping a bottle of drain cleaner and thinking the moon is made of Silly Putty and all type AB- blood types need to be shipped back to Narnia.

Even if, even if a tipping point chunk of the population is some level of "wrong" or "bad" however you wish to define those terms and that's 100% true and accurate... okay and? Where do you go from there? So many people seem to think that just going "They're bad and wrong and beyond saving" is a meaningful stopping point in a democracy.

They aren't going away. You can't make a law that says "People I disagree with shouldn't be able to vote" or set up the voting systems to disenfranchise them, (especially since they are so much better at playing "the game.")

Again unless what you want is a constant state of perpetual lose where you can sit on your moral high ground with something to complain about, safe in the comforting idea that the only reason we have problem is that the "stupid masses" are keeping some elite set of special "good and correct" people off of the throne.
Well, that's the thing. I don't live in some liberal mecca, I live in a very blue collar part of the south that went heavily to Trump.
When it comes to important matters of politics, there's just no common ground.
They can be nice folks, good folks and not unintelligent, like gets presented here a lot.
It takes both sides to be willing to meet at that middle ground, and well they come out convinced Hillary and Obama were the great Satan, and Democrats are responsbile for the loss of the jobs they had when we were kids.
I work in a factory that used to hire 15 people. Now makes do with five. Not due completely to changing markets, we still get loads of work. But now we have three mills that do the bulk of it. Which requires a high level of education to program, but low effort to run. Not going to get paid well just for time spent anymore.
Thats the reality. And it's just not accepted.
__________________
I love this crazy tragic, sometimes almost magic, awful beautiful life.
- Darryl Worley
The Stupid! It burns!
ShadowSot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:36 AM   #966
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,461
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If they have morally abhorrent believes, they should renounce them, yes. Do you hang around white supremacists, or do you not associate with those kinds of people?
I prefer just hanging white supremacists, but I do not hang around with them.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:38 AM   #967
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,461
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I prefer just hanging white supremacists, but I do not hang around with them.
Of course, only if they act on their stupidity..............
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:31 AM   #968
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,461
Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
Well, that's the thing. I don't live in some liberal mecca, I live in a very blue collar part of the south that went heavily to Trump.
When it comes to important matters of politics, there's just no common ground.
They can be nice folks, good folks and not unintelligent, like gets presented here a lot.
It takes both sides to be willing to meet at that middle ground, and well they come out convinced Hillary and Obama were the great Satan, and Democrats are responsbile for the loss of the jobs they had when we were kids.
I work in a factory that used to hire 15 people. Now makes do with five. Not due completely to changing markets, we still get loads of work. But now we have three mills that do the bulk of it. Which requires a high level of education to program, but low effort to run. Not going to get paid well just for time spent anymore.
Thats the reality. And it's just not accepted.
The problem there is that they are NOT intelligent if they think manufacturing and similar jobs have not changed nor has the demand for workers changed. The only way it is the manufacturer's fault is if they were also stupid and did not adapt to changes. In which case they would not have cut-down, they would have gone out of business.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:55 PM   #969
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,142
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Ah. Personally, I'd like to see our system scrapped altogether. Get rid of the electoral college, move towards something more democratic. But at the same time, move to a system that doesn't ignore small towns.
That's what the electoral college is supposed to do - strike a balance between population and location.

I would keep the electoral college. To me it makes sense (even when it leads to outcomes I don't like). But I would make a few tweaks - I'd get rid of gerrymandering the districts based on politics. We've got some awesome computing power nowadays, and plenty of analytic methods to evenly distribute representation across a population so that geographically tangent localities represent the same relative volumes of citizens without bringing part lines into the mix.

I'd also pro-rate the electoral votes, like Nebraska and Maine do. Whoever wins the district wins that electoral vote, and the two state-level votes go to whoever won the highest number of districts (or split if they're tied).

I think that would address a large number of the complaints about the electoral college, right there. But it would still preserve some degree of independence by locality... just so that California and New York don't band together and take over the world on the basis of having the most people.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:57 PM   #970
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,142
Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
"Republican". See, I can term-nanny both sides ;-)
I have no idea what you mean here.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:59 PM   #971
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,142
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If they have morally abhorrent believes, they should renounce them, yes. Do you hang around white supremacists, or do you not associate with those kinds of people?
You don't have many friends, do you?
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 02:02 PM   #972
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,142
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Even if things have gotten "that bad" and half the country has started worshiping a bottle of drain cleaner and thinking the moon is made of Silly Putty and all type AB- blood types need to be shipped back to Narnia.

Even if, even if a tipping point chunk of the population is some level of "wrong" or "bad" however you wish to define those terms and that's 100% true and accurate... okay and? Where do you go from there? So many people seem to think that just going "They're bad and wrong and beyond saving" is a meaningful stopping point in a democracy.

They aren't going away. You can't make a law that says "People I disagree with shouldn't be able to vote" or set up the voting systems to disenfranchise them, (especially since they are so much better at playing "the game.")

Again unless what you want is a constant state of perpetual lose where you can sit on your moral high ground with something to complain about, safe in the comforting idea that the only reason we have problem is that the "stupid masses" are keeping some elite set of special "good and correct" people off of the throne.
As much as I don't want to believe it... I'm beginning to think that is exactly what is wanted.

I'm not entirely certain, but I believe this is what would be called "virtue signaling".
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 02:06 PM   #973
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,142
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Midwest flyover land is known for attitude. Not in a good way - electoral collegie way like the rest of the not particularly important states that get more than their fair share of representatives both in the House and in the Electoral College. Yes, the flyovers do not have a population that justifies that. Needs to be written out of US law!!!!

The losing is only due to that crap!!! The only reason for it involved slave states
and that excuse is very dead now.
That's a whole lot of derision and condescension you're aiming at the places your food comes from. Seriously, didn't you ever watch Fight Club? Don't **** with the people in charge of your food.

Also, re: the blue... a whole lot of those interior states were never slave-holding states. Maybe you should re-evaluate your rationalization for disenfranchising such a large number of your fellow citizens.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 02:07 PM   #974
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,978
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You don't have many friends, do you?
Yes yes yes, just because they are white supremecists doesn't mean they are bad people, and you certainly can never call them deplorable. You have been clear about that for a long time.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 02:21 PM   #975
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,168
We're not talking about friends. We're not talking about who you hang out with, who you invite to dinner, who you want to date your daughter, who you like or respect, or whatever.

We're talking about how you interact with fellow citizens in a democracy who have the same level of rights in that democracy that you do when you feel that their opinions/stances are wrong and/or harmful.

Again not liking "Demographic X" doesn't make them go away. It doesn't reduce the power and influence they have over the election process.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong

Last edited by JoeBentley; Today at 02:24 PM.
JoeBentley is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 05:02 PM   #976
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,064
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Again not liking "Demographic X" doesn't make them go away. It doesn't reduce the power and influence they have over the election process.
Liking them doesn't make them go away either, or reduce their power and influence.

And you are not going to change their minds. You can outvote them, or you can fail to outvote them. Those are the choices, and you're lucky to have those choices.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 05:22 PM   #977
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,825
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Liking them doesn't make them go away either, or reduce their power and influence.

And you are not going to change their minds. You can outvote them, or you can fail to outvote them. Those are the choices, and you're lucky to have those choices.
If only.
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 05:31 PM   #978
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,142
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes yes yes, just because they are white supremecists doesn't mean they are bad people, and you certainly can never call them deplorable. You have been clear about that for a long time.
I really recommend less hate in your diet. It'll do your heart good!
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 05:33 PM   #979
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,142
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Liking them doesn't make them go away either, or reduce their power and influence.

And you are not going to change their minds. You can outvote them, or you can fail to outvote them. Those are the choices, and you're lucky to have those choices.
If you cannot change their minds, then you are doomed to failure. Best to just toss in the towel now.

Alternatively, you could consider altering your statement to read: You are not going to change their minds as long as you keep treating them like offal.

At that point, you could maybe consider NOT condescendingly deriding a whole bunch of people, and maybe... you know... treating them like people for a change? You might actually be able to change their minds if your treat them like humans on a regular basis.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 05:52 PM   #980
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,064
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
If you cannot change their minds, then you are doomed to failure. Best to just toss in the towel now.
False. It's just a matter of getting the vote out, which is much easier and more effective than vainly attempting to rectify Trumpkins' alternate reality.

Trump is a freakish anomaly who is reduced to taking false credit for an economic recovery and an ISIS-bashing, both of which were well underway before he was elected.

Trump's approval is currently below 40% and trending downward. If that gets reflected in the vote, the Republicans go down in flames in the midterms, and Trump will be the one who is doomed to failure.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 05:57 PM   #981
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,168
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Trump's approval is currently below 40% and trending downward.
Right and he was behind in all the election polls too. Hillary was a 85-99% chance shoe-in. How'd that work out?
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong
JoeBentley is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:02 PM   #982
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,064
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Right and he was behind in all the election polls too. Hillary was a 85-99% chance shoe-in. How'd that work out?
Cherry-pick much? How often does that happen?

Getting the anti-Trump vote out will work better than trying to deprogram hard-wired Trumpkins.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:02 PM   #983
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,142
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Trump's approval is currently below 40% and trending downward. If that gets reflected in the vote, the Republicans go down in flames in the midterms, and Trump will be the one who is doomed to failure.
Just because most people don't like Trump doesn't mean they're going to like your candidate any better... especially if that candidate's supporters are hell-bent on vilifying them and insisting that they can never be forgiven for their horrible sin...
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:07 PM   #984
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,064
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Just because most people don't like Trump doesn't mean they're going to like your candidate any better... especially if that candidate's supporters are hell-bent on vilifying them and insisting that they can never be forgiven for their horrible sin...
You're getting your people mixed up.

The people who dislike Trump are not the ones whose transgression is being discussed.

Hard-wired Trumpkins will never be among the hypothetical candidate's supporters. Coddling them will not alter that fact.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump

Last edited by Toontown; Today at 06:51 PM.
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:09 PM   #985
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,142
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Cherry-pick much? How often does that happen?

Getting the anti-Trump vote out will work better than trying to deprogram hard-wired Trumpkins.
Here's where your logic gets pretty thin.

A bit under half of the voting population aren't "hard-wired Trumpkins". They're people. You're not talking about the very small core of current supporters here - you're talking about all of the people who voted for him. That includes a whole lot of moderates and centrists... but you're lumping them all in with the group of people that you're not willing to forgive.

You're seem to think it's a worthwhile venture to try to disenfranchise a bit under half the US population by insisting that they are valueless and continuously insulting them. That really doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:10 PM   #986
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,142
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
You're getting your people mixed up.

The people who dislike Trump are not the ones whose forgiveness is being discussed.

Hard-wired Trumpkins will never be among the hypothetical candidate's supporters. Coddling them will not alter that fact.
Have you referenced the thread title, by chance?
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:19 PM   #987
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,064
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Here's where your logic gets pretty thin.

A bit under half of the voting population aren't "hard-wired Trumpkins". They're people. You're not talking about the very small core of current supporters here - you're talking about all of the people who voted for him. That includes a whole lot of moderates and centrists... but you're lumping them all in with the group of people that you're not willing to forgive.

You're seem to think it's a worthwhile venture to try to disenfranchise a bit under half the US population by insisting that they are valueless and continuously insulting them. That really doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me.
According to the polls, 58% of voters now disapprove of Trump after getting a good long look at him in action. Trump voters among that group can easily correct their error in the next election. Presumably they won't be voting to earn my forgiveness.

It's just a matter of getting them energized enough to go and vote.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:27 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.