ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing , Scottish politics , US-Libya relations , US-Scotland relations

Reply
Old 21st August 2009, 01:40 PM   #361
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,972
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A Lot of commentators in the US are suggesting this is being partly done as a delibertate snub to the US by the SNP.
If true, way to go,guys.

Just a bit of education here.

The SNP is so anxious not to upset the US government I was a bit worried it might cave under pressure and not do the right thing. Happily, when it came down to it, they had more backbone than that.

One of the serious concerns within the SNP is that when we get to the stage of negotiating independence, the USA may decide to use its international muscle to stand in the way. Because of this, the SNP is extremely keen to stay on the right side of the USA whenever possible. Give Alex Salmond half a chance to brown-nose any influential US politician, and he'll be right in there; big brown eyes, sincere smile and all.

I really wish it hadn't been necessary to upset anyone at all in the USA, for purely personal and pragmatic reasons. And I think this is the general view within the SNP. However, it had to be done, if the right thing was to be done.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 01:45 PM   #362
E.J.Armstrong
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,806
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
But clearly, even if he was, he wasn't the only one who was guilty. He didn't just dream this idea up all by himself and decide to bomb an airliner. He was an intelligence agent, not Osama bin Laden.

So who did?

Well, if you adhere to the Official Version, Gaddafi did that bit. Because of a series of US bombing raids on Libyan cities in 1986, launched from UK air bases, in which his step-daughter was killed and which were believed to be aimed at killing him.

So what the hell is the point in demonising a terminally ill catspaw, while shaking the hand of the man who planned and ordered the atrocity?

Rolfe.
Good point. I share your question about the behaviour of the US and UK governments.

It is remarkable how often patsies are set up to conceal the truth. If I was a relative, like Jim Swire, who has campaigned for decades, for the real truth to come out I would be appalled that the last avenue to the truth via the appeal appears to have been cut off.

Maybe Syria, a country the US wanted to get close to at the time of the trial apparently, will swim into the frame again when Libya's oil runs out?
__________________
“Everybody is somebody’s Jew. And today the Palestinians are the Jews of the Israelis.” Primo Levi
Capitalist (n) Someone who pays himself and his friends billions of dollars of your money as a reward for destroying your entire economy.
Israelis are taught that Palestinians are not human beings like them. Gideon Levy The Punishment of Gaza
E.J.Armstrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 01:48 PM   #363
funk de fino
Dreaming of unicorns
 
funk de fino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
So you served in NI (and I do have respect for you for doing so), yet you are unable to explain what the reasoning was behind the release of prisoners?
And you consider that the release of a convicted mass murderer from Libya as being basically the same?
Ronnie Biggs killed no-one, never mind 270 people, Im lost as to why you bring him up.
Your diversion is not working.

You have no idea what my thoughts on prisoner release are and are assuming because I am defending the SNP right to act on the behest of the people of this country, free from influence by other politicians from other countries, that I agree with him being released in this way. You are sadly mistaken and have been fooled by your anti SNP bias.

The UK released the Irish murderers because it wanted something politically. And do not forget the US role in this as well.

The Scots govt released Magrahi because it is what they do and have done in the past. Even if it was for political gain then it is equivalent to the above.

What is worse?

You have made up a CT and have spectacularly failed to provide an ounce of back up for any of your spittle flecked ranting.

Ronnie Biggs was released from prison on compassionate grounds despite the opposition of the families of the train driver who was attacked during the robbery. Now I know Ronnie did not attack the driver and I know the driver did not die till 7 years later of leukemia, but he was sentenced to 30 years (an unfair sentence in my opinion) for the crime. He did not serve it, the UK govt let him out because he was dying.

Whats the local anti SNP guy think of that? "Its different." It will be different even if it was exactly the same just because someone spelled a word different eh? It will never be the same again unless it is the SNP again.

But here's the hook. In a thread about Ronnie Biggs, my thoughts on parole and early release are made very plain. My posts in this thread are very plain. I have supported the Scots govts right to make these decisions without bowing to pressure from outsiders on a matter that happened in this country and involved our justice system. You supported the UK govt doing something similar. You probably think I am an SNP can do no wrong guy and I am a rabid lefty, you are very wrong. You probably think I am anti Labour, you are very wrong. You probably think I am anti English, you are very wrong. You went from having banter with me to saying you hate all nationalists. You are the bigot. You are the extremist. You are wrong.

You could not be anymore wrong if your scottish parent was Wrongity McWrong from Wrong Crescent, Wrongtown, Wrongness.

If you really care, and do not want to be the wrong-un any longer, then I can discuss my thoughts on parole, The SNP, Labour, Megrahi and Ronnie Biggs. But you need to reign in your seemingly rampant, testosterone fuelled, hatred and act like a rational adult.
__________________

Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase.
funk de fino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 01:58 PM   #364
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
Quote:
You have no idea what my thoughts on prisoner release are
Because you keep refraining from telling me.

Quote:
The UK released the Irish murderers because it wanted something politically.
You mean republican AND loyalist prisoners?
Yes they did.
It was necessary for the peace process.

Quote:
The Scots govt released Magrahi because it is what they do and have done in the past.
Explain when they freed someone convicted of killing 270 people on compassionate grounds before.

Quote:
You probably think I am an SNP can do no wrong guy and I am a rabid lefty, you are very wrong. You probably think I am anti Labour, you are very wrong. You probably think I am anti English, you are very wrong.
Well thats a lot of assumptions isnt it?
I cant remember accusing you of anything there.

But yes my post last night about hating nationalists may have been slightly over the top.
Im not a rabidly political until 10pm.

Last edited by scissorhands; 21st August 2009 at 02:04 PM.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 02:03 PM   #365
E.J.Armstrong
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,806
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post

Explain when they freed someone convicted of killing 270 people on compassionate grounds before.


Explain why it has to be 270 for the comparison to count?

PS
Any chance of you supporting your claims yet?
__________________
“Everybody is somebody’s Jew. And today the Palestinians are the Jews of the Israelis.” Primo Levi
Capitalist (n) Someone who pays himself and his friends billions of dollars of your money as a reward for destroying your entire economy.
Israelis are taught that Palestinians are not human beings like them. Gideon Levy The Punishment of Gaza
E.J.Armstrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 02:14 PM   #366
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,972
I note that Kenny MacAskill has granted 100% of the requests for compassionate release made to him.

How unlike the home life of our own dear ex-Governor of Texas....

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 02:16 PM   #367
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I note that Kenny MacAskill has granted 100% of the requests for compassionate release made to him.

How unlike the home life of our own dear ex-Governor of Texas....

Rolfe.
Evil Texans keep prisoners in prison shocker.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 02:40 PM   #368
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,972
Hard to find a contemporary article about the 2007 deal in the desert now, because every search is swamped by recent stuff.

Try this.

Quote:
:: May 29, 2007: Mr Blair hails the strength of the relationship between the UK and Libya after talks with Col Gaddafi during his farewell tour of Africa.
:: June 7, 2007: First Minister Alex Salmond tells the Scottish Parliament he has expressed concern to Mr Blair over a deal struck with Libya, which could lead to Megrahi being transferred back to Libya.

Blair did a deal with Gadaffi in 2007 to open the way to have Megrahi returned to Libya. Only hours later, BP announced a multi-million-pound oil deal with Libya.

The reason it didn't go ahead was that Jack McConnell was no longer First Minister, and Alex Salmond doesn't take orders from Tony Blair.

So it's a bit rich for the Labour party and its supporters to be getting on their high horses now.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 02:49 PM   #369
Jaggy Bunnet
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,241
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Hard to find a contemporary article about the 2007 deal in the desert now, because every search is swamped by recent stuff.

Try this.




Blair did a deal with Gadaffi in 2007 to open the way to have Megrahi returned to Libya. Only hours later, BP announced a multi-million-pound oil deal with Libya.

The reason it didn't go ahead was that Jack McConnell was no longer First Minister, and Alex Salmond doesn't take orders from Tony Blair.

So it's a bit rich for the Labour party and its supporters to be getting on their high horses now.

Rolfe.
I'm sure our resident Labour apologist will be happy to explain that this deal was nothing to do with Megrahi but was a priority to deal with the other Libyan prisoners being held in the UK.

After all Tony tried that one, even though there were a grand total of ZERO other Libyan prisoners. So the prisoner transfer agreement had nothing to do with the one prisoner who actually existed but was in fact about hyopthetical other prisoners should any turn up in the future. Or Blair lied.
Jaggy Bunnet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 03:08 PM   #370
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,972
Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet View Post
I'm sure our resident Labour apologist will be happy to explain that this deal was nothing to do with Megrahi but was a priority to deal with the other Libyan prisoners being held in the UK.

After all Tony tried that one, even though there were a grand total of ZERO other Libyan prisoners. So the prisoner transfer agreement had nothing to do with the one prisoner who actually existed but was in fact about hyopthetical other prisoners should any turn up in the future. Or Blair lied.

It was all quite funny at the time. Tony shaking hands with Gadaffi on the deal they'd struck, already knowing that the SNP had won the election, but I think still at the stage where Labour was faintly hoping to put together some sort of grand coalition to hold on to power, or just beyond it when everybody was predicting that the minority government woudln't last five minutes.

According to the Libyans, the prisoner transfer deal was all about Megrahi, who else would it be about, since there was nobody else it might apply to. They'd been assured by Tony that there would be no problem with the Scottish Executive. According to Tony - well, who knows. A different story for every day. One day Megrahi had been explicitly exluded. The next day, well, no, but he wasn't the reason for the deal and of course Scottish sovereignty in the matter would be respected.

Poor Tony, he'd been quite confident that he could deliver, because Jack McConnell would do as he was told. And then during May, it all unravelled.

Now the Libyans are saying that Megrahi's release was indeed connected to a trade deal. Well of course it was, from their pont of view. They signed a $900 million deal to allow BP access to their oil a few hours after they shook hands with Tony in May 2007. It took a while, but it's finally happened. And according to Oliver Miles, the SNP played it straight and the Westminster government was wheeling-dealing behind the scenes. Oh, a summary of the interview is up now.

Quote:
Oliver Miles interview

Krishnan Guru-Murthy asked the former British Ambassador of Libya whether he suspected some kind of deal between Libya and the UK government had been negotiated over the release of Al-Magrahi. He said:

"Yes I do suspect that. I can't be quite sure. I think that what MacAskill said yesterday struck me as being straight and I wouldn't want to impune in any way his decision to release Magrahi on humanitarian grounds which I think was right.

"But I think behind the scenes there'd been a lot of wheeling and dealing - and I think it's too much of a coincidence that Magrahi's informing the court of his wish to withdraw his appeal happened on the very same day that the Scottish decision to release him on humanitarian grounds was leaked to the BBC. It could be a coincidence but I don't believe it."

Asked what he thought would have been the British motivation for this deal? He replied:

"In the first place I don't think anyone in the British government or probably in the Scottish government was very keen on the appeal going ahead. Because I think it would have been embarassing frankly. I think it's quite likely that various dirty washing would have been brought out and washed on subjects like manipulation of evidence and so on.

"Secondly I think the British government saw this, quite rightly, as a potential snag for Anglo-Libyan relations and they wanted to get it out of the way. I think Tony Blair originally thought that he could deal with it quite simply by putting Magrahi back to Libya under the prisoner transfer agreement. It turned out it wasn't as simple as that."

It just gets more and more convoluted.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 21st August 2009 at 03:12 PM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 03:11 PM   #371
T.A.M.
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
And Im supposed be compassionate to someone who murdered 270 people in cold blood, none of which got any kind of time with their relatives prior to their deaths?
Nah, he should have been dropped out of an airplane without a parachute, a long time ago.
Well it is a personal thing of course, and I myself find it incredibly hard, if not impossible as AN INDIVIDUAL, to have compassion for this monster.

However, as I said before, really it is the CHRISTIAN thing to do. My comment was, to be honest a comment on how far from "Christian" we sometimes are as a society, or to look at it differently, how IMPOSSIBLE it is to follow all of the Christian teachings.

On another point, beyond what you, or EJ, or I think as individuals, there is a difference in what has been decided as law by a people/society in the clear and unfogged light of ethical debate and arm chair legislation, and what we may think as individuals concerning a PARTICULAR SITUATION, and from our particular perspective.

I agree with the Scottish law in principle, to be beneficent and merciful as a society even where others were not, despite how hard I find it to see the law enacted in this particular horrible circumstance.

TAM
T.A.M. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 03:22 PM   #372
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
Quote:
Well it is a personal thing of course, and I myself find it incredibly hard, if not impossible as AN INDIVIDUAL, to have compassion for this monster.
You dont need to, the especially compassionate SNP has compassionately let him out to return to his family.
If only they were so compassionate towards the relatives.
Thats politics, at least in SNP land, if it was a plane full of Scots blown up over Texas you could well expect a different response and a different interpretation of "compassion".
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 03:35 PM   #373
Jaggy Bunnet
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,241
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
So much for your credibility.
Someone has a credibility problem, but unfortunately for you it is the person denying that Blair did the prisoner transfer deal to get Megrahi released and that Salmond wanted him excluded.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7224194.stm

Originally Posted by BBC
Mr Salmond told BBC Scotland: "My role, the role of the government is to defend the integrity of the judicial system in Scotland and that's exactly what we intend to do."

"We've made it quite clear that, in terms of prisoner transfer agreement with Libya, we thought it would be appropriate if anyone connected with the Lockerbie atrocity was excluded specifically from any prisoner transfer agreement.

"Until very recently, that was also the position of the UK Government."

'Commercial deal'

Mr Salmond went on: "Now that seems to have changed and it's up to the UK government to explain why that position has changed and why that exclusion hasn't been gained."
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/her...libya_deal.php

Originally Posted by Sunday Herald
The insider said that the British had effectively "deceived" the Libyans into believing the UK government could orderprisonersfromnorthofthe Border to be transferred by not making the situation explicitly clear. "It was pretty plain the Libyans were involved in the late stages of involvementinnegotiationswhichtheythought would culminate in al-Megrahi's transfer home," said the source. "It's perfectly within the UK government's powers to draw up a memorandum of understanding, but one would think honesty would lead the British to say that such prison releases are within the UK legal framework, but not in Scotland or Northern Ireland.

"The Libyans clearly didn't understand the political process and were still saying we are going to get our man back'. Someone pointed out to them the UK cannot arrange the transfer of a prisoner from a Scottish prison to Libya. That came as something of a shock, but by then the deal was virtually signed andsealed.Thoseresponsiblefor drawing up the memorandum were economic with the truth by not saying that the ultimate decision on al-Megrahi must be left to Scotland."
Jaggy Bunnet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 03:38 PM   #374
Jaggy Bunnet
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,241
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
You dont need to, the especially compassionate SNP has compassionately let him out to return to his family.
If only they were so compassionate towards the relatives.
Thats politics, at least in SNP land, if it was a plane full of Scots blown up over Texas you could well expect a different response and a different interpretation of "compassion".
That's right because on your planet, no Scots were killed as a result of the Lockerbie bomb, right?

Of course in the real world, that isn't true, and you know it isn't true but hey, why let a little detail like that get in the way of your lies.
Jaggy Bunnet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 03:45 PM   #375
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,972
I salute your Google-fu, JB.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 03:51 PM   #376
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
Quote:
That's right because on your planet, no Scots were killed as a result of the Lockerbie bomb, right?
Oh some were killed, but they are expendable, when it comes to making sure that the murderer gets his hugs in Tripoli, after all he killed LOTS of Americans.
That makes him a hero.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 04:18 PM   #377
LibraryLady
Emeritus
 
LibraryLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,534
Mod WarningI have split off ten posts to AAH. EVERYONE needs to stop bickering and to remember civility. Thank you.
Posted By:LibraryLady
__________________
What would Hüsker Dü?
LibraryLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 06:13 PM   #378
Locknar
Sum of all evils tm
Administrator
 
Locknar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 25.8333° N, 77.9000° W
Posts: 23,153
Mod WarningThe bickering stops NOW, and yes this means you (Scissorhands and Rolfe). Why the back to back Mod warnings...because every post between LibraryLady's post and this one just continued the bickering. Address the OP in a civil manner.
Posted By:Locknar
__________________
He's back!

Last edited by Locknar; 21st August 2009 at 06:18 PM.
Locknar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 09:36 PM   #379
Ausmerican
Illuminator
 
Ausmerican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,490
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
At least we are finding out how certain lefties in the UK really feel about the mass murder of Americans; No Big Deal.
Really? I would say no more than this post of yours means that you think that the American lives lost were the only ones that were worth mentioning.
__________________
Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing. Henry David Thoreau
Ausmerican is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 12:52 AM   #380
Jaggy Bunnet
Philosopher
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,241
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Oh some were killed, but they are expendable, when it comes to making sure that the murderer gets his hugs in Tripoli, after all he killed LOTS of Americans.
That makes him a hero.
Isn't it strange how you have nothing to do say about the direct quote from Salmond proving you wrong?
Jaggy Bunnet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 02:10 AM   #381
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
Originally Posted by Jaggy Bunnet View Post
Isn't it strange how you have nothing to do say about the direct quote from Salmond proving you wrong?
Salmond playing political football with unsubstantiated reports doesnt cut it for me Im afraid.
George Galloway is a more honest politician, equally loathsome, but at least with some kiind of integrity.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 04:47 AM   #382
funk de fino
Dreaming of unicorns
 
funk de fino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Because you keep refraining from telling me.
I have answered others in this thread about my thoughts on the issue when they asked me. When did you ask me if I thought the release was correct or not?

Originally Posted by scissorhands
You mean republican AND loyalist prisoners?
Yes they did.
It was necessary for the peace process.
Yes, both and both sets were murdering terrorists who were relased early.

It was a political decisions yes? Taken by the UK govt? How many did those guys kill? Its allowed when you think it is neccessary and you dont really care what the victims families think in this case eh?


Originally Posted by scissorhands
Explain when they freed someone convicted of killing 270 people on compassionate grounds before.
They have released murderers previously under these laws. The figure of 270 is a red herring.


Originally Posted by scissorhands
Well thats a lot of assumptions isnt it?
I cant remember accusing you of anything there.
Your posting history betrays you. You even snip out and ignore questions put to you while badgering me forr answering your diversions and red herrings

Originally Posted by scissorhands
But yes my post last night about hating nationalists may have been slightly over the top.
Im not a rabidly political until 10pm.
Most of your anti SNP rants have been over the top and few have been quite disgusting.

And see you still have failed to back up one single claim you have made.
__________________

Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase.
funk de fino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 05:08 AM   #383
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
Quote:
The UK released the Irish murderers because it wanted something politically.
The UK released terrorists from both sides, because the people of NI wanted something.
It was called a peace process.
Maybe you dont approve of the peace process?
There again you dont live in Northern Ireland do you?

You still havent explained what was to be gained from the release of this mass murderer in comparison.

Stop dancing around the question and answer it.

I couldnt give a monkeys what you think of my posts concerning the SNP.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 05:41 AM   #384
Alt+F4
diabolical globalist
 
Alt+F4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,997
I think the attitude that the Scots are so much more compassionate than the rest of the world and always follow the letter of the law can pretty much be thrown out the window. So much for not bowing down to the pressure of outsiders.

Originally Posted by The New York Times
On Friday, Lord Trefgarne, chairman of the Libyan British Business Council, said Mr. Megrahi’s release had opened the way for Britain’s leading oil companies to pursue multibillion-dollar oil contracts with Libya, which had demanded Mr. Megrahi’s return in talks with British officials and business executives.
Hey Scotland, you're no different than the Americans when it comes to playing politics.

Linky:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/wo....html?_r=1&hpw
__________________
"My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky

Last edited by Alt+F4; 22nd August 2009 at 05:47 AM.
Alt+F4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 05:54 AM   #385
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...nvitation.html

I think this explains a lot.
The little toadface Salmond is still angry at Obama for snubbing him.

Quote:
The SNP leader attempted to gloss over the snub, saying he was due to meet six US congressmen and Hillary Clinton has promised to come to Scotland if she has time.

However, opposition parties claimed it was a humiliating setback for Mr Salmond's bid to become an international statesman.
In same article...

Quote:
Mr Salmond has previously attempted to enter the global political stage, writing to the 189 countries who have signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

He asked that Scotland be given observer status at the next NPT meeting, but only 21 could be bothered to reply.

Last night Lord Foulkes, a Labour backbench MSP, said: "He just gets carried away with his own imagination of his own importance.


Well hes finally got himself in the limelight, hasnt he?

Last edited by scissorhands; 22nd August 2009 at 06:00 AM.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 07:06 AM   #386
Fiona
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,125
A lot of this is irrelevant, IMO.

The question of whether Megrahi should be released is a matter for the Scottish Justice Minister. There was an application for prisoner transfer and that was fully considered and rejected. There was the question of release on compassionate grounds. That was also fully considered and it was granted.

McCaskill was clearly alive to the reactions which would be likely to ensue no matter what decision he took: this is evident in his speech. He laid out the law in both situation: the things he is constrained to consider: and the lengths he went to to make sure he had looked at all the relevant issues. This was a conscientious decision and I see no indication that it was not made properly. It is hard to see any relevant factor which was not addressed. Nor can I see any evidence that the decision was not reasonable

It is not to be expected that everyone will agree with it, but that has no bearing on the case. A decision was made by the proper authority in the proper way. The reasoning was made explicit and it is sound. That it is unpalatable to some does not change that.

It is possible that there are influences which have not been acknowledged. Perhaps practical politics was in play: that is even likely. I understand the pope is still a catholic. The idea that Scotland is more principled than other nations seems silly to me. International Relations are not really a good place to look for high principle and moral absolutism

But although that is true there is a place for compassion and I certainly cannot see any case for making law and legal decisions on the basis of the vengefulness of victims: I cannot see that the wishes of the most vengeful are trumps; and in fact I think those people can and should be overruled. This is not human nature in the sense that all victims feel the same way. They don't. We are influenced by our culture and if revenge is a strong motif more people will allow that particular part of the mix to come to the fore: if it is not respected fewer will do so. We are capable of many reactions: there is no reason to presume that the wish for revenge is more powerful or more worthy of respect than any other. It is for you to determine whether you wish to level down to our worst selves: or to try to support a better response to those who do us harm. I know that the way I have phrased that is loaded but I think it best expresses the way I view our options.

I wish to live in a civilised society: I know there will be realpolitik considerations in such situations and I regret it: but it cannot be helped. Within those limits I want the rule of law to prevail: and I want that law to be made by people who are not directly involved and who are trying to balance different and incompatible aims. I want us to behave well when we have been harmed: it is easy to behave well when we have not been: but we need help with that when we are victims. And that is why the law should not pander to the lowest common denominator however understandable their wishes are. Your aims may differ.

But again, most of that is irrelevant. The decision was taken properly and in accord with the law. Those who disagree with it and who live in Scotland can seek to change it through their votes. I hope they do not succeed
Fiona is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 07:12 AM   #387
Nogbad
Master Poster
 
Nogbad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,566
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...nvitation.html

I think this explains a lot.
The little toadface Salmond is still angry at Obama for snubbing him.



In same article...





Well hes finally got himself in the limelight, hasnt he?

Meh! If you don't ask you don't get. Nothing is ever just "if diaries allow" in the media. It is either a snub or rabid endorsement. Such nonsense makes newspapers nigh unreadable.

Do you recall the hay Labour made when Obama allegedly said Cameron was a lightweight? It is all a bit sad really.
__________________
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum.
Nogbad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 07:26 AM   #388
Architect
Chief Punkah Wallah
 
Architect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 9,555
Iain Bell has written a rather good Op-ed in today's Herald, I thought:

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/...ntic_storm.php

There's also an interesting point made about apparent US double standards in the letters page:

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/...oice_anger.php

So, Scissorhands, how do you square your views regarding what you perceive to be righteous US outrage when they've had the shoe on the other foot?
__________________
When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies.

James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party
Architect is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 07:43 AM   #389
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
You mean you want to equate an airliner shot down by mistake by a warship of the US Navy with the deliberate bombing of an airliner at Lockerbie?
Is that where you are going with this?
You do realise the circumstances of that shoot down dont you?
The warship considered itself under attack.

Last edited by scissorhands; 22nd August 2009 at 07:49 AM.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 07:45 AM   #390
Alt+F4
diabolical globalist
 
Alt+F4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,997
Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
The question of whether Megrahi should be released is a matter for the Scottish Justice Minister.
Who seems to take his orders from the Libyan British Business Council.

If you could put your moral superiority aside for a second you might see what was really going on in the release of Megrahi.
__________________
"My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky
Alt+F4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 07:51 AM   #391
Fiona
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,125
I have no moral superiority Alt+F4. I do have moral aspirations, however.

Unless you take the view that realpolitik can be excluded from international affairs I do not see the point of the rest of your post. You can have suspicions about "what was really going on" and you might even be right. If you are, then in this instance it seems that practical politics did not prevent the proper decision: and that is a happy circumstance, IMO
Fiona is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 08:00 AM   #392
Nogbad
Master Poster
 
Nogbad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,566
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
You mean you want to equate an airliner shot down by mistake by a warship of the US Navy with the deliberate bombing of an airliner at Lockerbie?
Is that where you are going with this?
You do realise the circumstances of that shoot down dont you?
The warship considered itself under attack.
The US ship was in Iranian territorial waters and the other two US ships nearby clearly identified it as a civilian plane on a routine flight. The captain's superior had already pulled him up once about being trigger happy. It wasn't a mistake it was incompetence which the US refused to apologise for (although they did pay damages 8 years later).

Can you imagine the reaction if an Iranian warship was in US territorial waters and shot down a US civilian plane (or even a military one)? There would be cruise missiles firing off all over the shop - no excuses accepted.

Am I right or am I right?
__________________
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum.
Nogbad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 08:04 AM   #393
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
Quote:
Am I right or am I right?
Nope you are wrong.
Heres an in depth investigation into what occurred that day.

http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/reading_room/172.pdf

The only people that should be considered at fault were the Iranians for letting airliner enter the middle of an ongoing battle.
There were errors made, there often are when someone has to make the decision to shoot or not at an unidentified potentially hostile target bearing down on them in a war zone.

Last edited by scissorhands; 22nd August 2009 at 08:07 AM.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 08:04 AM   #394
Alt+F4
diabolical globalist
 
Alt+F4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,997
Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
I have no moral superiority Alt+F4. I do have moral aspirations, however.

Unless you take the view that realpolitik can be excluded from international affairs I do not see the point of the rest of your post. You can have suspicions about "what was really going on" and you might even be right. If you are, then in this instance it seems that practical politics did not prevent the proper decision: and that is a happy circumstance, IMO
Politics is politics, the Scots play it, the Americans play it, everyone does, no country is above the fray. Scottish "compassion" had little to do with what went on here. If Quadafi had turned against Megrahi and insisted that he remain in prison until death the Scottish government would have gladly done it and called it "justice".

Of course personally you can have all the moral asperations you want to, we all do. I also know that you don't run the Scottish government. However, what the Scottish government did was wrong.

When traveling in Europe a few years ago Europeans gave me an earful about the wrong-doings of President Bush. My answer was always, "I didn't vote for him and he doesn't take my phone calls." What I did agree with was that he was wrong.
__________________
"My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky

Last edited by Alt+F4; 22nd August 2009 at 08:07 AM.
Alt+F4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 08:20 AM   #395
Nogbad
Master Poster
 
Nogbad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,566
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Nope you are wrong.
Heres an in depth investigation into what occurred that day.

http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/reading_room/172.pdf

The only people that should be considered at fault were the Iranians for letting airliner enter the middle of an ongoing battle.
Bollocks! It was a routine flight in a civilian air corridor. The US ship was involved in a minor skirmish with small Iranian craft. The small craft were retreating and the twit of a captain pursued them into Iranian territorial waters. He was at fault which is why the US paid compensation.

As I said, the other US ships knew the Vincennes had screwed up. The primary excuse for the shooting was that they were a bit stressed on the bridge which is why nobody hailed the plane on the standard civilian frequency. At no point was the Vincennes washed with radar suggesting a lock on for attack. They merely saw a blip and thought Cowboys and Indians. It was not the US navy's finest hour. To try to blame the Iranians is just a rather pathetic career saver.

PS it wasn't a battle it was a minor skirmish. The gulf was full of them duing the Iran Iraq war
__________________
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum.

Last edited by Nogbad; 22nd August 2009 at 08:24 AM.
Nogbad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 08:26 AM   #396
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
Clearly you havent bothered reading the PDF I linked for you.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 08:29 AM   #397
Nogbad
Master Poster
 
Nogbad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,566
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Clearly you havent bothered reading the PDF I linked for you.
I did actually - DOD transcripts of the enquiry/excuse

not all 200 odd pages obviously

Edit: worked for the MOD for 22 years so I am familiar with the form

why has the last acronym gone all red?
__________________
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum.

Last edited by Nogbad; 22nd August 2009 at 08:35 AM.
Nogbad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 08:34 AM   #398
Fiona
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,125
Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Politics is politics, the Scots play it, the Americans play it, everyone does, no country is above the fray.
As I said.

Quote:
Scottish "compassion" had little to do with what went on here.
No. The provision for release on compassionate grounds is part of Scottish law. To that extent it is to do with what went on here: just as any other country's compassion would be relevant if they had the provision in their law: it is there because it is one of the principles the people of that country wish to see incorporated in their law. If it were not there then he could not have been released on those grounds. It is there and so he could. It has a lot to do with what happened

Quote:
If Quadafi had turned against Megrahi and insisted that he remain in prison until death the Scottish government would have gladly done it and called it "justice".
I like to think you are wrong but frankly I do not know and neither do you.

Quote:
Of course personally you can have all the moral asperations you want to, we all do. I also know that you don't run the Scottish government.
That is correct. But the values of a culture are to some extent reflected in that country's laws. Morality is not the same as law but the two are intertwined to a greater or lesser extent.

Quote:
However, what the Scottish government did was wrong.
That is your opinion: it is not mine: it is not the opinion of many of the Scottish posters here. It is probably the opinion of many other Scots: and I have no way of knowing how many. Neither do you. If it is a majority then that will perhaps be reflected in future elections: or perhaps other things will be seen as more important to the voters. In any case the Scottish government is accountable to the scottish people. On the basis of the small and probably unrepresentative sample of scottish posters here what the govenment did was certainly not wrong. If you have evidence that it was at odds with the views of the majority of all scots please post it
Fiona is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 08:36 AM   #399
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
Quote:
DOD transcripts of the enquiry/excuse
Starting with an open mind always helps when reading reports.
The fact that it disagrees with your opinions is irrelevant.

Quote:
why has the last acronym gone all red?
Huh?

Last edited by scissorhands; 22nd August 2009 at 08:44 AM.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 08:48 AM   #400
Nogbad
Master Poster
 
Nogbad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,566
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Starting with an open mind always helps when reading reports.
The fact that it disagrees with your opinions is irrelevant.

I already knew the summary of their report. It was hardly a surprise when it was made known. The military (any military) tend to close ranks. They were more concerned about the operational effectiveness of the systems and how they had been deployed than the cock up in the air.

Presumably you view the Iranian report on the incident with the same detachment.

Incidentally the Iranians claimed that the ship was in their territorial waters but the Vincennes logged a different location (where they had been ordered to stay) Several years later Admiral Crowe admitted that the ship had not followed orders and had gone into Iranian waters. Reports are fine but they serve a purpose and that isn't always to tell the whole truth.

I do not believe it was a deliberate act but I do still consider it gross incompetence brought about by a gung ho captain doing his own thing.

Oh! the MOD was red and underlined - weird!
__________________
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum.

Last edited by Nogbad; 22nd August 2009 at 08:50 AM.
Nogbad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:17 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.