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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing

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Old 7th February 2010, 11:34 PM   #1
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Well, it's been six months...

...since the "terminally ill" Lockerbie bomber had been "compassionately" released. Hey, if we don't have compassion to mass murderers, we're just as bad as them, you know.

Still alive, eh?

Thought so.

Suckers!
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Old 8th February 2010, 05:17 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
...since the "terminally ill" Lockerbie bomber had been "compassionately" released. Hey, if we don't have compassion to mass murderers, we're just as bad as them, you know.

Still alive, eh?

Thought so.

Suckers!
do you believe he is faking prostate cancer? Not terminally ill? what?
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Old 8th February 2010, 08:21 AM   #3
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Old 8th February 2010, 08:41 AM   #4
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I want to see Megrahi die and soon.

It's not that I believe in capital retribution, it's not that I have no doubts about his guilt. It's not that I object to backroom trade deals bargaining for political prisonaere. It's just I can't bear to Kelvin MacKenzie win a £500 bet.

Quote:
I have just made a £500 bet with William Hill that Megrahi, far from dying within Kenny’s predicted time of three months from prostate cancer, will still be around a year from now, and I am certain I am going to clean up. Those images of him with his face covered by an oxygen mask on his hospital deathbed are all PR lies to get cowardly British politicians off the hook so come next May I am going to appear on television and radio stations and in newspapers giving my views that he was part of a conspiracy between London and Edinburgh which owed more to trade deals in a tent between that fool Blair and Gaddafi two years ago.
Actually I've changed my mind. I want to see Kelvin MacKenzie die and soon.

[For the purposes of those not blessed with a sense of humour I am not serious. I am not inciting anybody to kill anyone, I will certainly take no pleasure from seeing grieivng families whether they be Libyan, Scots or former editors of the Sun.]
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Old 22nd February 2010, 02:30 AM   #5
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Hmmmmmmm
If he's still around in another 6 months my hmm will get even bigger. Maybe this big...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Something a little fishy in Tripoli.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 02:32 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Hmmmmmmm
If he's still around in another 6 months my hmm will get even bigger. Maybe this big...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Something a little fishy in Tripoli.
I'll ask you the same question.

do you believe he is faking prostate cancer? Not terminally ill? what?
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Old 22nd February 2010, 02:39 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I'll ask you the same question.

do you believe he is faking prostate cancer? Not terminally ill? what?
I find it hard to believe that he would be able to do that. He was diagnosed with prostate cancer by the British doctors after all.

There are two possibilities ... one is that he's fighting the prostate cancer with reasonable success. This is unlikely, but if it was diagnosed early on, not impossible. The chance for a remission is unlikely, but living for months is not unheard of. That being said, he was expected to die within three months when he was released, so this case would have to be somewhat exceptional - again not impossible and not without precendens, but quite unlikely.

Another possibility is that his cancer was an excuse to release him and they inflated how bad it was. Perhaps it was discovered very early on and they claimed it was terminal to let him go. Why would UK do that is a mystery, however.

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Old 22nd February 2010, 02:44 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I'll ask you the same question.

do you believe he is faking prostate cancer? Not terminally ill? what?
From what I've been reading he may have been released on ..er political grounds.
But he was released prior to receiving chemotherapy treatment:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...aths-door.html
Quote:
One leading prostate cancer specialist cast serious doubt yesterday on the wisdom of predicting that Megrahi had only three months to live – when a patient still had to undergo chemotherapy. Dr Chris Parker said it was extremely difficult to give an accurate prognosis for individual patients. "Studies show experts are very poor at trying to predict how long an individual patient will live for," he warned.
So was he "faking prostate cancer"?
No.

Was he "terminally ill"?
Well he's not dead yet and it sounds like his treatment is finished. If he is recovered, then clearly it wasn't terminal was it?

Was his release premature and for political purposes?
Hmmmmm.

What do you think?

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 22nd February 2010 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 02:59 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
From what I've been reading he may have been released on er political grounds.
But he was released prior to receiving chemotherapy treatment:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...aths-door.html



So was he "faking prostate cancer"? No.
Was his release premature and for political purposes? Hmmmmm.
well my view is that 99.9% of decisions at the political level are for political purposes....Political considerations would be part of this decision and most others..so if their expert advice was 3 months to live Should they wait for an Iron clad guaranteed lifespan? I don't think such a thing is possible.

But you did ask the question "Was his release premature and for political purposes" do you have an answer to your own question?

My answer would be "not enough information" on the premature bit. I don't have access to their medical advice. The "3 months" seems to be a reported figure. Personally I would have expected that the advice was probably a range with 3 months as the most likely estimate.

and the decision was a political one...They all are. But I see no evidence that it was a solely political decision as release of terminally ill prisoners is quite common and based on Judicial principles.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 03:18 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
But I see no evidence that it was a solely political decision as release of terminally ill prisoners is quite common and based on Judicial principles.
Release of terrorists convicted of killing hundreds of people is hardly common (if indeed it has happened at all). The decision to release Megrahi was shameful and an insult to the relatives of victims.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 03:24 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Release of terrorists convicted of killing hundreds of people is hardly common (if indeed it has happened at all). The decision to release Megrahi was shameful and an insult to the relatives of victims.
Not to the relatives of the victims who believe that his conviction was a miscarriage of justice.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 03:29 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Not to the relatives of the victims who believe that his conviction was a miscarriage of justice.
Conspiracy section that way.........
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Old 22nd February 2010, 03:39 AM   #13
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If it was indeed a miscarriage of justice, he should have been released on those grounds. Releasing somebody convicted of killing hundreds of people just because he got sick is outrageous if you ask me. I am glad that my country is not "compassionate" enough to release say, KSM, if he someday develops cancer.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 03:47 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
I want to see Megrahi die and soon.

It's not that I believe in capital retribution, it's not that I have no doubts about his guilt. It's not that I object to backroom trade deals bargaining for political prisonaere. It's just I can't bear to Kelvin MacKenzie win a £500 bet.
What's the source (other than media) for the three months prediction?

I have some information (anecdotal, but hey) that may make you feel better. Prostate cancer is relatively unpredictable, and is painful. This time last year, six months after my dad's initial diagnosis of prostate cancer, doctors told him to go out and enjoy doing all the things he wanted to do, so that in five years time - when they thought he'd start slowing down - he wouldn't have any regrets. The cancer was spreading in areas the scans didn't pick up, and he died in September. He was in terrible pain from shortly before his diagnosis until his death. It eased slightly during chemo, but it was clear he was in pain ... and so much pain at the end that he couldn't bend to put his own shoes on.

The doctors can only give an opinion of what they think might happen based on information available at the time. They are not psychic, and diseases take their own courses.

I would suggest that the best thing would be to consign this man to history (those who believe his guilt) and not cast the spotlight of fame on him further. Those who consider he may be innocent may wish to allow him to die from this terrible disease in relative peace (given the pain it causes).

Those of a particularly vicious streak may take comfort from knowing that this man is not sitting somewhere having the life of Reilly. He is in pain, and he will die from this terrible disease. The pain is around the base of the spine and hips usually, which has an impact on everything a sufferer tries to do, since most movement affects this area (walking, bending, sitting, turning, lifting, etc).
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Old 22nd February 2010, 03:48 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
But you did ask the question "Was his release premature and for political purposes" do you have an answer to your own question?

My answer would be "not enough information" on the premature bit. I don't have access to their medical advice. The "3 months" seems to be a reported figure. Personally I would have expected that the advice was probably a range with 3 months as the most likely estimate.
My answer is a big "Hmmmm", and it may get bigger.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Release of terrorists convicted of killing hundreds of people is hardly common (if indeed it has happened at all). The decision to release Megrahi was shameful and an insult to the relatives of victims.
Yep

Originally Posted by dtugg View Post
If it was indeed a miscarriage of justice, he should have been released on those grounds. Releasing somebody convicted of killing hundreds of people just because he got sick is outrageous if you ask me. I am glad that my country is not "compassionate" enough to release say, KSM, if he someday develops cancer.
Quite.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 03:53 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
What's the source (other than media) for the three months prediction?
Libyan doctors, the way I read it.

Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
Those of a particularly vicious streak may take comfort from knowing that this man is not sitting somewhere having the life of Reilly. He is in pain, and he will die from this terrible disease. The pain is around the base of the spine and hips usually, which has an impact on everything a sufferer tries to do, since most movement affects this area (walking, bending, sitting, turning, lifting, etc).
Unless this part is true...

Quote:
The man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing is living with his family in a luxury villa

However, one source involved in monitoring Megrahi's health suggested the bomber's condition has got no worse in the past six months.

The source said: "Megrahi is still the same as ever. His condition has not deteriorated. There is no sign of him dying any time yet but who knows? It's totally unpredictable."
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Old 22nd February 2010, 04:04 AM   #17
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I'm well aware of the effect prostate cancer can have on you, having had a scare last year. If I was a murdering terrorist though I don't think I would expect any merciful treatment due to this disease.

This was a political decision, nothing more.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 04:23 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Unless this part is true...
I'm sorry, I don't see the part there that says he is not in any pain, or not suffering - can you highlight it?

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I'm well aware of the effect prostate cancer can have on you, having had a scare last year. If I was a murdering terrorist though I don't think I would expect any merciful treatment due to this disease.

This was a political decision, nothing more.
Oh, I agree.
I just don't understand why some people seem to be handling it almost on the basis of a personal affront. Ignore him, and leave him to die. At least he won't be costing UK taxpayers the costs of treatment and incarceration any longer.

(I'm sorry you had such a scare, but very glad to infer from that that you are doing fine)
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Old 22nd February 2010, 04:48 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
I'm sorry, I don't see the part there that says he is not in any pain, or not suffering - can you highlight it?
Don't get me wrong. I have no inside knowledge on this one way or the other. For all I know he is in pain.
I will have a better understanding (as will the world) when he dies - hopefully presumably soon if he is genuinely 'terminal'.

I also assume from your comments you feel he should have been released - at least on compassionate grounds. But was/is he innocent also, and/or justified in killing hundreds? You seem to be siding with him to me.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 04:55 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Don't get me wrong. I have no inside knowledge on this one way or the other. For all I know he is in pain.
I will have a better understanding (as will the world) when he dies - hopefully presumably soon if he is genuinely 'terminal'.
Why does it make any difference to you personally what happens to this one individual?

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
I also assume from your comments you feel he should have been released - at least on compassionate grounds. But was/is he innocent also, and/or justified in killing hundreds? You seem to be siding with him to me.
Not at all. I don't think the decision to release him was appropriately made - I stated this quite clearly above.
I don't know if he is innocent, and I certainly do not believe he was remotely justified in what he did if he is guilty. There is no 'side' to take here, because I don't have access to the things that would confirm his guilt or innocence, or the state of his health at the moment. The only reason this thread was started was to complain that a man diagnosed with prostate cancer has not yet died.

I simply don't take pleasure in the pain of others.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 05:11 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
Why does it make any difference to you personally what happens to this one individual?
Not a lick of difference to me personally. I could not care less about him.

If I did have a choice, perhaps allowing him the freedom to walk the streets of Lockerbie in his underwear on a cold winters day in his underwerar, would be appropriate.


Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
Not at all. I don't think the decision to release him was appropriately made - I stated this quite clearly above.
I don't know if he is innocent, and I certainly do not believe he was remotely justified in what he did if he is guilty. There is no 'side' to take here, because I don't have access to the things that would confirm his guilt or innocence, or the state of his health at the moment. The only reason this thread was started was to complain that a man diagnosed with prostate cancer has not yet died.

I simply don't take pleasure in the pain of others.
Fair enough. Just an impression.
However, he could experience the same levels of discomfort in a UK prison.
People die in gaols everyday, I get the impression - and the assertion is - that Libyan oil greased the wheels for his release.
That part stinks if true.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 05:16 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I'll ask you the same question.

do you believe he is faking prostate cancer?
Quote:
Not terminally ill?
We are all terminally ill. Prostate cancer is something people may live with for very long.

Since he had treatment pending, he was not an 'end state patient'

The most sensible definition for terminally ill or end stage is that all reasonable treatment has been tried and is given up, and the disease is still progressing.


Quote:
what?
If he is still alive after 6 months, one may begin to doubt that he fulfills that definition.

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Old 22nd February 2010, 05:21 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
However, he could experience the same levels of discomfort in a UK prison.
You aren't a UK taxpayer, though, which is the only part of this I do have an opinion on. It's an expense we can do without.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 05:27 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
You aren't a UK taxpayer, though, which is the only part of this I do have an opinion on. It's an expense we can do without.
Oh, I had no idea it was a cost issue for you.
Perhaps the death penalty would have been cheaper.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 05:53 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Libyan doctors, the way I read it.

...snip...
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/This...kerbiedecision

Quote:
...snip...

Mr Al-Megrahi was examined by Scottish Prison Service doctors on 3 August. A report dated 10 August from the Director of Health and Care for the Scottish Prison Service indicates that a 3 month prognosis is now a reasonable estimate. The advice they have provided is based not only on their own physical examination but draws on the opinion of other specialists and consultants who have been involved in his care and treatment. He may die sooner - he may live longer.

...snip...
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Old 22nd February 2010, 05:54 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I'm well aware of the effect prostate cancer can have on you, having had a scare last year. If I was a murdering terrorist though I don't think I would expect any merciful treatment due to this disease.

This was a political decision, nothing more.
But one based on the legislation that exists in Scotland
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Old 22nd February 2010, 06:04 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Oh, I had no idea it was a cost issue for you.
Perhaps the death penalty would have been cheaper.
I remember a Judge who had an opinion on the death penalty for convicted terrorists:

Quote:
Mr Justice Donaldson, who also presided over the Maguire Seven trial, expressed regret that the Four had not been charged with treason, which then still had a mandatory death penalty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildfo...Guildford_Four
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Old 22nd February 2010, 06:52 AM   #28
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Patrick Swayze lived for twenty months after being diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. IIRC, the media reported shortly after diagnosis he had only weeks to live, though this was denied by doctors. Is there any other disease which is so difficult to provide an accurate timetable for?
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Old 22nd February 2010, 08:48 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I'm well aware of the effect prostate cancer can have on you, having had a scare last year. If I was a murdering terrorist though I don't think I would expect any merciful treatment due to this disease.
My friends mum was given weeks to live she is still going at 4 months. Another friends mum was given 6 months and died 2 weeks later. If you were a prisoner in the UK then you would be right in thinking that you may well be released on compassionate grounds because it has happened before in the majority of cases such as these.

Quote:
This was a political decision, nothing more.
Considering it was made by a Scottish politician it would have been hard to have been anything else.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 09:08 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
[For the purposes of those not blessed with a sense of humour I am not serious. I am not inciting anybody to kill anyone, I will certainly take no pleasure from seeing grieivng families whether they be Libyan, Scots or former editors of the Sun.]

Science: Observation, theory, prediction, tests.

Theory: Guy isn't really dying, at least as badly as portrayed by those in charge, including putting up a major fake sickiness.

Prediction: When released, will live a lot longer because he really wasn't as sick as people in charge were fooled into believing.

Prediction 2: Apologists will, when faced with Prediction 1 coming true, claim it's just a random fluke to the progress of his disease.




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Old 22nd February 2010, 09:11 AM   #31
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"apologists" for what?
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Old 22nd February 2010, 11:25 AM   #32
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"The compassionate way of letting a mass-murderer go so he can spend the last few months of life in his home country with his family."
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The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?
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Old 22nd February 2010, 11:47 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
it has happened before in the majority of cases such as these.
Really? Are there many other cases of mass-murdering terrorists in UK prisons who get compassionate release because they develop terminal cancer?
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Old 22nd February 2010, 11:51 AM   #34
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There's certainly a case of a very notorious criminal being released on compassionate grounds. We don't have a huge pool of mass murdering terrorists who have become terminally ill in prison to compare Megrahi with, but there is nothing in the rules for compassionate release that says this group should be exempt from the same rules as other prisoners.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 11:58 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
There's certainly a case of a very notorious criminal being released on compassionate grounds. We don't have a huge pool of mass murdering terrorists who have become terminally ill in prison to compare Megrahi with, but there is nothing in the rules for compassionate release that says this group should be exempt from the same rules as other prisoners.
Who said anything about exempting them from the rules? But what are the rules? Do the rules require release, or do they only allow release? If it's the former, well, they're bloody stupid rules (and not just because of this case) and ought to be changed. And if they're the latter, then a judgment call gets made, and things like the severity of the crime are probably one of the factors that gets considered. And if that's the case, well, they could certainly consider a terrorist attack with mass casualties to be a particularly bad crime, worth denying release because of, but that wouldn't be exempting him from the rules.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 12:09 PM   #36
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According to this QC:

Quote:
Thus, on the published facts of Megrahiís case, had the Scottish Government refused to allow compassionate release in terms of a policy which had been applied by it and its Lib-Lab predecessors, and before them by Labour and Conservative Secretaries of State alike, it would have been open to legal challenge with excellent prospects of success (see, for discussion and expansion of this statement, comment below by FP Heur and my reply). Thatís the way the law works; it doesnít suddenly cease to operate because the person claiming its benefits is criminal, or a foreigner, or because release is politically undesirable. Still less because of the improbable suggestion that Americans will boycott Scotland and all its works if Scots law is applied impartially and judicially.
http://www.jonathanmitchell.info/200...y-and-the-law/
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Old 22nd February 2010, 12:18 PM   #37
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Quote:
had the Scottish Government refused to allow compassionate release in terms of a policy which had been applied by it and its Lib-Lab predecessors, and before them by Labour and Conservative Secretaries of State alike, it would have been open to legal challenge with excellent prospects of success
In other words, the law does allow them to not compassionately release people they don't want.

But they have constantly been releasing most people who apply for release due to terminal illness, so they made compassionate release for such illness a de facto right that applies to everybody -- including mass murderers -- no matter how horrific their crime.

Making a virtue of necessity, they make their own weakness and the creation of yet another "right" for the criminals into an example of their "consistency". This defeats the whole point of "compassionate release": that it should be something granted out of compassion to those who deserve compassion, at least relatively so, not a de facto legal right given to everybody who fits a certain criteria regardless of their crimes, and people can actually sue if they don't get.

If anybody ever deserved not to get "compassionate release" and to die in prison, then this mass murderer did. But being too weak and afraid of legal challenges to refuse, they praise themselves for being "consistent", like those teachers who give everybody an "A" and then praise themselves for "not hurting the students' self-esteem".

If they had any balls, they would deny his release and deal with the legal challenges by stonewalling and procrastinating until the scum dies in prison. Ooops, sorry about that! Too bad, so sad.

Last edited by Skeptic; 22nd February 2010 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 12:30 PM   #38
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Were you this incensed about the release of a war criminal/convicted murder of 22 people by the US?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley
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Old 22nd February 2010, 12:31 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
According to this QC:
I can't tell from that what "excellent prospects of success" for an appeal means. Is it simply the author's opinion of which way higher courts would exercise their own judgment, or is there some legal grounds on which a refusal to release cannot be justified? For the former, well, that's not really a reason to release him (if he gets released on appeal, so be it), and if it's the latter, then the laws regarding release sound bad and should probably be changed on general principle.

To put it slightly differently, are there no criminals for whom the government can ever say, "this criminal we aren't willing to release even if he's terminally ill"? Because if there aren't, I see that as a problem. And if there are, I don't see why they couldn't have decided that this terrorist was one such criminal.
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Old 22nd February 2010, 12:35 PM   #40
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Deleted, see fuller post below

Last edited by Professor Yaffle; 22nd February 2010 at 12:42 PM.
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