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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Ahmed Jibril , Lockerbie bombing , Pan Am 103 , Scotland issues , US-Scotland relations

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Old 1st June 2010, 03:04 PM   #41
Cleon
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There are times when the lines between "politics," "current events," and "conspiracy theories" all get a little fuzzy.
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Old 1st June 2010, 04:00 PM   #42
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
There are times when the lines between "politics," "current events," and "conspiracy theories" all get a little fuzzy.
Exactly. But since it's back here, I'd like to see its reference to US politics and opinions. One that comes up (the main one ATM) is suspicion that, as Beerina said, the Scots were duped. This is the prognosis mostly, something I'm not way up on. But it might be nice to address these concerns of Americans - WAS there anything improper in that.

Some noteworthy passages to consider:
Dr Simpson, a former member of the British Association of Urological Surgeons' prostate cancer working group who specialised in prostate disease research, expressed doubt that Megrahi would die within the next three months and claimed that Megrahi could live for eight months. He then went on to say that, "Kenny MacAskill released him apparently on the advice of just one doctor whose status is not clear and who is not named." He added that a second specialist opinion in palliative care should have been sought before the release.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...re-months.html

Scottish Tory justice spokesman, Bill Aitken said: "In June and July, there was a consensus on prognosis of eight months. Where is that consensus now? We only have the opinion of one anonymous individual - not the range of medical experts promised.
http://www.dailyindia.com/show/330532.php
---
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Old 1st June 2010, 04:21 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Exactly. But since it's back here, I'd like to see its reference to US politics and opinions. One that comes up (the main one ATM) is suspicion that, as Beerina said, the Scots were duped. This is the prognosis mostly, something I'm not way up on. But it might be nice to address these concerns of Americans - WAS there anything improper in that.
My mother was given one day by a Scots doctor yet she survived 3. I guess he was a charlatan or I was a dupe eh?

The docs said he was dying of cancer. He will die of cancer.

Quote:
Some noteworthy passages to consider:
Dr Simpson, a former member of the British Association of Urological Surgeons' prostate cancer working group who specialised in prostate disease research, expressed doubt that Megrahi would die within the next three months and claimed that Megrahi could live for eight months. He then went on to say that, "Kenny MacAskill released him apparently on the advice of just one doctor whose status is not clear and who is not named." He added that a second specialist opinion in palliative care should have been sought before the release.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...re-months.html

Scottish Tory justice spokesman, Bill Aitken said: "In June and July, there was a consensus on prognosis of eight months. Where is that consensus now? We only have the opinion of one anonymous individual - not the range of medical experts promised.
http://www.dailyindia.com/show/330532.php
---
So the Tory moron uses an 8 month prognosis from SPS but then says the exact same people who said 3 months were wrong a few months later?

Quote:
A spokesman for the Scottish government said the prognosis of the three doctors - Britons Mr Sikora and Jonathan Waxman and Libyan Ibrahim Sherif - was not taken into account when Mr MacAskill decided to free Megrahi last month.
He said that instead of using the three doctors' opinions they drew on expert advice from 'a number' of specialists for the clinical assessment of Megrahi's life expectancy.
'These included two consultant oncologists, two consultant urologists and a number of other specialists, including a palliative care team, who had reviewed and contributed to the clinical management of the patient.
You want to claim that is incorrect then by all means prove it.
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Old 1st June 2010, 07:14 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
If you'll recall, convicted Lockerbie bomber Abdul al Megrahi was released from prison last year on "compassionate grounds." That meant he was likely to die within three months.



Please everyone, refrain from mentioning how this monster might be innocent or this will be sent to the CT forum. Just normal politics as far as this thread is concerned - convicted mass-murdering terrorist Islamist scum set free and what now? Who pays and how?
What does Islamist have to do with it.
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Old 1st June 2010, 07:42 PM   #45
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I am glad my country isn't "compassionate" enough to set free a mass murdering terrorist just because he got sick.
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Old 1st June 2010, 07:45 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Exactly. But since it's back here, I'd like to see its reference to US politics and opinions. One that comes up (the main one ATM) is suspicion that, as Beerina said, the Scots were duped. This is the prognosis mostly, something I'm not way up on. But it might be nice to address these concerns of Americans - WAS there anything improper in that.

Some noteworthy passages to consider:
Dr Simpson, a former member of the British Association of Urological Surgeons' prostate cancer working group who specialised in prostate disease research, expressed doubt that Megrahi would die within the next three months and claimed that Megrahi could live for eight months. He then went on to say that, "Kenny MacAskill released him apparently on the advice of just one doctor whose status is not clear and who is not named." He added that a second specialist opinion in palliative care should have been sought before the release.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...re-months.html

Scottish Tory justice spokesman, Bill Aitken said: "In June and July, there was a consensus on prognosis of eight months. Where is that consensus now? We only have the opinion of one anonymous individual - not the range of medical experts promised.
http://www.dailyindia.com/show/330532.php
---
So these guys conspired to lie to everyone because of...five months' difference? Why not just wait it out and let him go three months from his "due date?"

This makes no sense.
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Old 1st June 2010, 07:53 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by dtugg View Post
I am glad my country isn't "compassionate" enough to set free a mass murdering terrorist just because he got sick.
Is this a joke?
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Old 1st June 2010, 07:57 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by GreNME View Post
Is this a joke?
Nope. I am glad that the USA will let pieces of crap that deserve to die in prison die in prison.
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by dtugg View Post
Nope. I am glad that the USA will let pieces of crap that deserve to die in prison die in prison.
You may want to re-think your statement, unless you're going to go pedant over the whole "mass murdering terrorist" goose chase. According to the actual rules for compassionate release, the crime of the offender doesn't necessarily disqualify them (though the sentence may). While folks like this person might imply that it happens too rarely, the reality is that the US does have a compassionate release program and it doesn't follow to state without a doubt that someone like Megrahi wouldn't have gotten a release.

But hey, don't let me deflate your jingoism.
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:47 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by GreNME View Post
You may want to re-think your statement, unless you're going to go pedant over the whole "mass murdering terrorist" goose chase.
How exactly is that going pedant? It's clear I was talking about mass murdering terrorists since I said mass murdering terrorists.


Quote:
According to the actual rules for compassionate release, the crime of the offender doesn't necessarily disqualify them (though the sentence may). While folks like this person might imply that it happens too rarely, the reality is that the US does have a compassionate release program and it doesn't follow to state without a doubt that someone like Megrahi wouldn't have gotten a release.

But hey, don't let me deflate your jingoism.

I am well aware the are provisions for compassionate release, and I don't really have a problem for inmates who didn't kill people. But mass murderers? Yes, I do. Thankfully, (to my knowledge) no mass murderer has ever been let out on those grounds before in the US. I think is pretty clear that there is no way that someone like Megrahi would ever be let out of prison in the US. And I am glad that it is that way.
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:58 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by dtugg View Post
How exactly is that going pedant? It's clear I was talking about mass murdering terrorists since I said mass murdering terrorists.
Yeah, and it's pretty clear you're making a statement you don't ever have to back up because there's been no comparable scenario. Ain't unfalsifiable statements grand?
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Old 1st June 2010, 10:17 PM   #52
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Do you actually think that there is any chance whatsoever that it would happen in the USA? Or are you just trolling?

In case it's the former, let's lower the standard from mass murdering terrorists to mass murderer. To my knowledge no mass murderer has ever been granted compassionate release in the USA although there have been some that would have qualified in Scotland. One example is Susan AtkinsWP who recently died in prison. Can you name one mass murderer who has ever been granted a compassionate released in the USA?
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Old 2nd June 2010, 01:24 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
My mother was given one day by a Scots doctor yet she survived 3. I guess he was a charlatan or I was a dupe eh?
Obviously that's a sad and interesting-sounding and totally different situation. Condolences.

Quote:
The docs said he was dying of cancer. He will die of cancer.
I agree of course, and I know no prognosis is perfect, and I'm no expert at any of this. For that reason I haven't ruled out something other than pure medical evidence caused "three months" to be mentioned right then. In fact I consider it likely that pressure was laid, since likely's a vague word.

Quote:
So the Tory moron uses an 8 month prognosis from SPS but then says the exact same people who said 3 months were wrong a few months later?
True, reading closer he says 8mo back in June, so same thing he accepts,in late August, is 5-6 months. Not a huge difference to fudge that a bit to *perhaps* 3 months. He's quibbling over weeks.

I thought he meant 8 months from then, and it looks like it will be not much more than that. But Aitken makes a good case for just what he denies - patients often live longer than their prognosis says. Aitken was wrong too, good thing we didn't have him in charge, releasing murderers early and WHY?
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Old 2nd June 2010, 01:41 AM   #54
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I think I read a while back that the US has greater prison hospital provision for these sorts of scenarios. In the UK, prison hospitals just aren't set up to deal with palliative care etc because our smaller pool of prisoners doesn't warrant such facilities. So it probably is less likely that this would have happened in the US.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 01:43 AM   #55
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Quote:
What does Islamist have to do with it.
Okay, that was a little overboard. But I was referring to a concept I don't hold but was hoping commentors would. "Skeptic" (post #25) delivered.

Quote:
I am glad my country isn't "compassionate" enough to set free a mass murdering terrorist just because he got sick.
I can see both sides, but yeah, as an American it just seems right there be at least SOME punishment relative to crime. I'm not even opposed to death when there's hundreds of relatives of the dead all wishing for it, hell yeah.

Except sometimes they're wrong and the person's innocent. Not necessarily in this case, but when it's really for sure that a person did something that heinous, they should pay. And here, we've got a conviction by judges. I gotta admit, that's fairly impressive.

Quote:
So these guys conspired to lie to everyone because of...five months' difference? Why not just wait it out and let him go three months from his "due date?"

This makes no sense.
See above. Thanks for thinking that out, as Funk did above. I concur. political word salad.

On USA and compassionate release, Dtugg:
Quote:
I am well aware the are provisions for compassionate release, and I don't really have a problem for inmates who didn't kill people. But mass murderers? Yes, I do. Thankfully, (to my knowledge) no mass murderer has ever been let out on those grounds before in the US. I think is pretty clear that there is no way that someone like Megrahi would ever be let out of prison in the US. And I am glad that it is that way.
I'm not read up on this either, but I think you're about right. It's a lot more optional over here. In fact, it's kind of convenient that right as the Megrahi issue was causing such a stir, the release of Manson murder chick Susan Atkins came up (Sept. 3 IIRC). She was clearly about dead and no more threat to anyone, and still had maybe someone that'd like to hug her one more time. But she was flat denied, on account of cutting people up and stuff, died a few weeks later. It's all sad, but oh well.

I'm presuming she was actually guilty, as I've heard nothing to the contrary.

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 2nd June 2010 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 07:15 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by dtugg View Post
I am glad my country isn't "compassionate" enough to set free a mass murdering terrorist just because he got sick.
What about your Vietnam massacre guy? When he was released, was he sick?
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Old 2nd June 2010, 07:16 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by dtugg View Post
Do you actually think that there is any chance whatsoever that it would happen in the USA? Or are you just trolling?

In case it's the former, let's lower the standard from mass murdering terrorists to mass murderer. To my knowledge no mass murderer has ever been granted compassionate release in the USA although there have been some that would have qualified in Scotland. One example is Susan AtkinsWP who recently died in prison. Can you name one mass murderer who has ever been granted a compassionate released in the USA?
Can you name one in Scotland or England who has been refused? Do we treat this guy different because he was a muslim and killed Americans?
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Old 2nd June 2010, 07:37 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
What about your Vietnam massacre guy? When he was released, was he sick?
Please release me, I'm sick.
How sick are you?
I murdered and entire village on innocent women and children.

Bha dum tish!
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Old 2nd June 2010, 08:59 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
Please release me, I'm sick.
How sick are you?
I murdered and entire village on innocent women and children.

Bha dum tish!
Whoops. Now you've started something

eta: Sorry, it was funk de fino who technically started this 'something'.

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Old 2nd June 2010, 09:06 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
What about your Vietnam massacre guy? When he was released, was he sick?
Yeah, that was wrong too.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 09:16 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Yeah, that was wrong too.
Yep. But just as flat-earthists and spherical-earthists are both wrong, they're not equally wrong.

The Megrahi release is 'wrong', perhaps, in timing. A timing which requires a precision in prognosis that is rarely available.

Calley was very different.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 09:28 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Yep. But just as flat-earthists and spherical-earthists are both wrong, they're not equally wrong.

The Megrahi release is 'wrong', perhaps, in timing. A timing which requires a precision in prognosis that is rarely available.

Calley was very different.
Both were convicted of murder, both should have died in prison. Just my 2..5 cents.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 02:05 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by dtugg View Post
Do you actually think that there is any chance whatsoever that it would happen in the USA? Or are you just trolling?

In case it's the former, let's lower the standard from mass murdering terrorists to mass murderer. To my knowledge no mass murderer has ever been granted compassionate release in the USA although there have been some that would have qualified in Scotland. One example is Susan AtkinsWP who recently died in prison. Can you name one mass murderer who has ever been granted a compassionate released in the USA?
Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Can you name one in Scotland or England who has been refused? Do we treat this guy different because he was a muslim and killed Americans?
fun de fino nailed it.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 02:21 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by GreNME View Post
fun de fino nailed it.
Seems undeniable to me, but strange things happen on JREF ....
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Old 2nd June 2010, 02:54 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Can you name one in Scotland or England who has been refused? Do we treat this guy different because he was a muslim and killed Americans?
Can you name one in Scotland or England that received the same medical evaluations and doctors as Megrahi before release? Do Scotish and English inmates usually have three specialists (including a foreign one) determine their condition for a compassionate release? Yes, this guy was treated differently because he was a Muslim and killed Americans....he was treated BETTER than your average dying Scotish or English inmate.

It would be interesting to know on average how long Scottish and English inmates lived after their compassionate releases.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 03:22 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Can you name one in Scotland or England that received the same medical evaluations and doctors as Megrahi before release? Do Scotish and English inmates usually have three specialists (including a foreign one) determine their condition for a compassionate release? Yes, this guy was treated differently because he was a Muslim and killed Americans....he was treated BETTER than your average dying Scotish or English inmate.
My bolding.

Please read funk's post #43 regarding this foreign medic.

Meanwhile please provide evidence that Megrahi was treated better than an average Brit in the same circumstances,

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Old 2nd June 2010, 03:34 PM   #67
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Indeed, as Funk del Fino points out, this is an issue of Scottish law. I can understand the sentiment that convicted murderers SHOULD serve full life. But where the laws say differently, you can't call it improper or suspect when the results are different from what one might prefer.

The law says when there's a prognosis that says three months or less is likely, that's close enough to life. The diagnosis is real, so the release was justified.

That doesn't prove the diagnoisis was sound, nor does his continued survival prove it was unsound.

Great discussion!
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Old 2nd June 2010, 03:55 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Please read funk's post #43 regarding this foreign medic.
You're right, I was wrong. Megrahi's release was not based on the opinon of three doctors....it was at least six.

Quote:
Meanwhile please provide evidence that Megrahi was treated better than an average Brit in the same circumstances,
From a link in funk's post #43, Megrahi's release was based on:

Quote:
they (the Scotish government) drew on expert advice from 'a number' of specialists for the clinical assessment of Megrahi's life expectancy. These included two consultant oncologists, two consultant urologists and a number of other specialists, including a palliative care team, who had reviewed and contributed to the clinical management of the patient.
Does the average British or Scotish inmate seeking a compassionate release get this type of assessment before a determination has been made?
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Old 2nd June 2010, 04:16 PM   #69
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double post
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Old 2nd June 2010, 04:32 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
You're right, I was wrong. Megrahi's release was not based on the opinon of three doctors....it was at least six.



From a link in funk's post #43, Megrahi's release was based on:



Does the average British or Scotish inmate seeking a compassionate release get this type of assessment before a determination has been made?
Kudos. Fair question. I know not the answer.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 04:48 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Kudos. Fair question. I know not the answer.
When I have time tomorrow I will see if I can find out how British and Scotish inmate are medically assessed for compassionate release. It might be the same as for Megrahi, but I doubt it.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 06:53 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
What about your Vietnam massacre guy? When he was released, was he sick?
No.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 06:57 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Can you name one in Scotland or England who has been refused? Do we treat this guy different because he was a muslim and killed Americans?
No, you should treat him differently because he killed a bunch of people. I would say the same thing if he were white and no American died. If any other mass murderers have been released from prison in Scotland or England just because they got sick, that just further proves how stupid the law is.

Last edited by dtugg; 2nd June 2010 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 01:29 AM   #74
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A comparable High Profile compassionate release might be Ronnie Biggs

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...m-prison..html

No mention of how many doctors it took to provide the medical evidence in question though.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 02:34 AM   #75
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I would guess Megrahi had more advice and perhaps friendlier advice than average. I doubt it's because he's a Muslim or terrorist and the UK gave him better care. Likely it's because Megrahi or someone paid them and that's allowed. Maybe their opinions are supposed to be weighed lightly, only FYI to the real deciding doctors? I don't know, let's see what anyone finds out more specific.

Ronnie Biggs is quite interesting. His case parallels Megrahi's in a lot of ways. Almost as convenient as the Atkins thing, the UK way of showing the Megrahi release ISN'T special. Happens all the time, even with baddies like Biggs. He's still alive too, isn't he?
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Old 3rd June 2010, 02:59 AM   #76
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Biggs, at least, didn't kill a bunch of people.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 03:54 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by dtugg View Post
Biggs, at least, didn't kill a bunch of people.
As I was writing that up I figured there'd be someone along soon to point that out.

The point of course is whether people in different situations are treated differently. So that fact that he wasn't a mass murdering terrorist is makes the point rather then invalidating it.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 04:03 AM   #78
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But they should be treated differently. I don't have a problem giving a compassionate release to someone who just stole a bunch of money.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 05:02 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by dtugg View Post
But they should be treated differently. I don't have a problem giving a compassionate release to someone who just stole a bunch of money.
But that's the nub of the matter. Should they really be treated differently? Who are we showing compassion to? I don't think either Meghari (assuming his guilty) or Biggs deserve compassion. I know I'd rather lose my liberty than my life so I don't make the mistake of thinking that a protracted death is somehow getting off lightly, being confined to a hospital bed, or being confined to a prison hospital bed is much the same, but it's the families I have compassion for. They deserve a chance to share these last moments.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 05:28 AM   #80
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What's the practical value of keeping him locked up, paying for his medical and end-of-life care, when he is clearly no longer a threat to society?
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